PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[PKNintendo]

fox likes his Dair to utilt (and then later dair to usmash).

We like to not get hit by that so much. So we stay in the air a bunch.

Fox against ness in the air is usually fox trying to hit our nair with his fair, us trying to fair his fair, him backing off and trying to get us when we land, and us doing other stuff to him when he's on the ground.

PKT is useless. period.

yoyo's are semi-effective. Usmash into aerial followups are about as effective as they ever are on any character.

Fox lasercamps ness, so ness gets kinda sorta close so that fox can't laser, but then either character closes the gap and actually approaches.

Fox moves faster, ness is heavier, fox dies to bthrow somewhat early, ness has a somewhat unreliable recovery due to fox's massive second jump and nair blah blah blah.

My point is that it's really interactive, and neither one has a technique that dominates this matchup or forces a major change in strategy.

I see... And as usually psi magnet is useless?

 

[Levitas]

Magnet's bad except at a really long range against a standing laser, and foxes like to SHDL or SHTL depending on who you talk to.

I mean, you might gain like a 5% if you really try hard and not expose yourself to much harm if you lag cancel, but it's not really influential past the fact that fox can't standing laser and expect you to approach. Instead he SHDLs and expects you to close most of the gap.

 

[Conviction]

Hmm Ness? Well might say 45:55 Fox or 60:40 Fox becuase Ness maybe heavier but Usmash kills him at early percentages. Fox can out camp because laser go farther than most of Ness's projectiles and if Ness trys to use projectiles Fox can shine them. Ness only kill move is his Fsmash. Fox is Faster. I'll try to get the rest of the Fox boards to come to help with this but Ness seems relatively easy for Fox.

 

[Ref]

Ness' kill move is not his Forward smash, Ness has his back air, u air, Back throw, PK Thunder 2, PK flash if you feel like adding that.

Ness can absorb your lasers.

Why would Ness need to camp when he can out range all your aerials with an F air... N air seems to also out prioritize most if not all Fox's aerials.

1 thing fox has is his reflector doesn't allow PK thunder to be too effective, and his D air seems to easily chain to other moves on Ness.

There is also something I call reflector lock, basically when fox is reflecting things in air, he cannot drop the reflector, therefore PK thunder swell surprise is kind of easy to hit on a fox trying to reflect an aerial PK thunder from below him.

Swell surprise is tail whipping to PKT2....

Fox should never try to reflect Ness' recovery unless they know 100% what they are doing and what the Ness' player is trying to do.

 

[thesage]

U-tilt beats Fox's dair >_>; Fox really shouldn't be approaching anyways cuz of lasers and Ness beats every approach he has.

I also think this is fairly even, maybe slight advantage to Ness.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Falcon vs. Ness=Hard
Falcon vs. Fox=Very hard

That should say something but it is nothing to base a matchup off of. SHLs actually help prevent Ness's awesome absorbtion power. Either one can force the other to approach but what it comes down to is who can approach faster. That's were Fox passes with flying colors, speed. A Ness should try to keep a Fox in the air becuase of Ness's longer lasting ariels. On the ground Fox has the advantage with most of his smashes, reflector, Illusion ftw and hard to punish with Ness's power.

7:3 Fox.

 

[xoxokev]

Ness only kill move is his Fsmash.

Ness' kill move is not his Forward smash, Ness has his back air, u air, Back throw, PK Thunder 2, PK flash if you feel like adding that.

Here's more to add to that list:

D-air (off stage of course, or on stage at very high %'s)
Fresh u-tilt at around 140% with no platforms (kills at lower %'s when standing on a higher platform)
Fresh n-air off stage at around ~120%

 

[PKNintendo]

Okay Fox is nowhere at 7-3 don't.
even kid yourself.

Hmm Ness? Well might say 45:55 Fox or 60:40 Fox becuase Ness maybe heavier but Usmash kills him at early percentages. Fox can out camp because laser go farther than most of Ness's projectiles and if Ness trys to use projectiles Fox can shine them. Ness only kill move is his Fsmash. Fox is Faster. I'll try to get the rest of the Fox boards to come to help with this but Ness seems relatively easy for Fox.

You know nothing on Ness. Ness main killers are his bair, backthrow, PKT2 and Pk flash. Ness is heavier by alot actually Just so you know, and Fox much lighter. Getting off a backthrow on FD can kill Fox at 100% maybe lower. Fsmash kills fox at 50%! and PKT2 kills Fox at 30%. Bair kills at 100%. Fox cannot camp lol. His short range blaster (no flinch too) is not a camping tool, far from it.

This is an easy matchup for Ness. PKF works well on fox because he's a fast faller, Ness wins out in the air, and there isn't something defining for Fox in this matchup. Im for 55-45 or 6-4 for Ness.

 

[Zhamy]

Spacies always seem to have a difficult matchup against Ness, And brawl Fox is no exception.

It's looking like 6:4 Ness to me.

Ness is heavier by alot actually Just so you know, and Fox much lighter.

Just FYI, Fox is the 7th lightest character in the game. So yes, he is a lot heavier.

Getting off a backthrow on FD can kill Fox at 100% maybe lower.

Depends where. With proper DI, it's possible to survive until 110% off a backthrow.

Fsmash kills fox at 50%!

Erm. Where are these numbers coming from?

and PKT2 kills Fox at 30%

I have never had this happen to me.

Bair kills at 100%.

Are you...sure? I'm really confused by these numbers. You're presenting best case scenarios, and it'll rarely happen like this.

But overall, Ness does have a better pressure game and more viable options. 6:4.

 

[Gaussis]

All moves are fresh. Fsmash isn't that powerful, but it does kill at lower percentages sweetspotted (roughly around the 80-90s for light characters. probably earlier in neutral situations, I have to check). PKT2 will probably kill a little higher than 30%, but it has to be in the air. Ground ones can be DI'ed enough to survive. Bair kills at that percentage fresh. He forgot to include uair, which will kill around the early 100s. And people, if you want to name all of the situational ones, don't forget sourspotted dair, which is stronger than bair.

 

[PKNintendo]

Spacies always seem to have a difficult matchup against Ness, And brawl Fox is no exception.

It's looking like 6:4 Ness to me.



Just FYI, Fox is the 7th lightest character in the game. So yes, he is a lot heavier.



Depends where. With proper DI, it's possible to survive until 110% off a backthrow.



Erm. Where are these numbers coming from?



I have never had this happen to me.



Are you...sure? I'm really confused by these numbers. You're presenting best case scenarios, and it'll rarely happen like this.

But overall, Ness does have a better pressure game and more viable options. 6:4.

FD training mode. Bat was done at the edge, so IDK it kills later from the middle. Yes they are best case scenarios XD.

 

[Uffe]

Okay, just to let you all know, "PK Thunder 2" can kill as low as 30-40% if close enough. I suppose the stage determines these numbers, though. The following can kill Ness' opponent.

1. Uair
2. Bair
3. Nair
4. Dair (spiking or sour spot)
5. B-throw
6. PK Jibaku (PKT2)
7. Baseball Bat
8. Yo-yo (at decent percent)

I thought I'd go ahead and get that out of the way. I don't find Fox particularly hard to fight like I do Falco, but Fox is pretty tough. I'm not sure if this is all of the Fox community, but I usually come across a Fox who likes to smash a lot, fire his Blaster from afar, come down with his Reflector > dair > d-smash and other strange methods that can be seen from a mile away but for some reason work.

 

[Neon Ness]

Ness only kill move is his Fsmash.

Seriously? Seriously. Seriously?

I'm tempted to sig this so I can ridicule it. But that would be mean.

...Right?

Fox is forced to approach since his lazas = recovery for us. Staying aerial is dangerous because of the reflector and down air to down smash combos. I recommend short hopped down air for Ness to pressure Fox. He has to approach but SH dair keeps him at bay. Conundrum!? Yes. Well, maybe. Fox's speed advantage is the biggest problem for us, I think. It's about fighting smarter, not harder in this matchup. Very little room for mistakes.

 

[Gaussis]

Don't get dair-happy. Usmash out of shield hurts a lot.

I also feel that Fox approaches in this matchup, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't. Ness can keep the pressure on Fox using his aerials.

@Uffe: The reflector thing is probably to get you to whiff the utilt. The player probably knows that utilt beats Fox's dair. Just ignore it and focus on when he reaches utilt range.

 

[_clinton]

I should point out that Ness' crouch can duck under Fox's lasers...so add that on Fox's problems...

Yeah...6:4 is ok for Ness...but I feel it is 55:45 Ness...but that might just be because I don't like fighting fast characters ^_^

Fox has plenty of kill moves that kill early to make up for the fact that he dies early (JUST LIKE G&W!)

Fsmash
Usmash
Dsmash
Bair (timed right)
Uair (2nd hit of course)

Anything else I'm missing/wrong with?

 

[Gaussis]

Fsmash is...horrible IMO. It can kill, but it's risk/reward is hardly worth it because if Fox whiffs, he will get hurt.

 

[_clinton]

Fox's Fsmash
Hits: 14F
Hitlag: 9F

It isn't that bad...

Anyway...

Utilt is annoying and you don't want to get caught in that at 0%...
His Jab comes out on frame 2...
Usmash comes out on frame 10...the same bloody frame as the 1st hit on our Usmash...

BTW...we should do Marth next...

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj132/JonathanTheSmex/Marth/whatthehellMath.jpg
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn280/IceyMarth/17699.jpg

I got these from here...

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=46741389

PK Nintendo...I'd pay you 10 Professor Funland bucks if you used the 2nd pic of Marth for the topic...

 

[Gaussis]

In other words, nothing. Still, do it for the lulz.

 

[Neon Ness]

Don't spam up our thread with snapshots of that broken pedophile. I say we skip Marth and discuss Roy instead.

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Roy has potentially 6 wifes, the pimp. >.>

 

[Gaussis]

Roy iz nots in Barlw.

10 Roys

 

[Neon Ness]

Roy has potentially 6 wifes, the pimp. >.>

In that case, we should definitely discuss him next.

 

[Uffe]

@Uffe: The reflector thing is probably to get you to whiff the utilt. The player probably knows that utilt beats Fox's dair. Just ignore it and focus on when he reaches utilt range.

Haha. Forget that! I learned the hard way the first time around. Just like Peach's floating ability, I'll do whatever I can to punish that with a different way.

@ _clinton: I lol'd after viewing this image.

 

[Gaussis]

Aaarrrgh. Get rid of that. My filters can't take such unmanliness.

is not welcome on these boards.

JK

 

[Uffe]

^^^ And I was going to take it down, too, just for you.

 

[PKNintendo]

Fox's Fsmash
Hits: 14F
Hitlag: 9F

It isn't that bad...

Anyway...

Utilt is annoying and you don't want to get caught in that at 0%...
His Jab comes out on frame 2...
Usmash comes out on frame 10...the same bloody frame as the 1st hit on our Usmash...

BTW...we should do Marth next...

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj132/JonathanTheSmex/Marth/whatthehellMath.jpg
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn280/IceyMarth/17699.jpg

I got these from here...

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=46741389

PK Nintendo...I'd pay you 10 Professor Funland bucks if you used the 2nd pic of Marth for the topic...

Deal XD. But Marth is not next... I was thinking... D3!

 

[Uffe]

I don't know about you guys, but the D3's I fight are a pain. They're spammy of their Goon Farming, chain grab, d-tilts, bairs and spot dodge waaay too much that using nair just might not be the answer since his spot dodging is too good.

 

[Gaussis]

For spotdodgers, use dair. It hurts them very bad. As for DDD's projectiles, you can fair them off (except for the occasional Gordo, but fortunately he doesn't follow the same trajectory as its weaker counterparts). I feel his ftilt causes more trouble than his dtilt. Bair is an issue. And the chaingrab, uhh...don't get grabbed? Useless advice really for the CG.

 

[xoxokev]

Wow that was really fast, we only spent 1 day discussing Fox... but I don't mind, lets talk about DDD!

His Waddle-dees (or whatever) are really annoying... I always get the urge to Fsmash them, since its basically one of the only, if not ONLY, guaranteed hits with the baseball bat

...oh wait I forgot about when people break their shields... charged Fsmash/PK Flash are pretty much guaranteed for that as well. Anyway...

The cyclops ones that shoot electricity are good for healing Ness. They generally heal ~30% if you can get all of it.

DDD's chain grab is gai.
Bair WoP is gai.
Ftilt catching your PK Fire is gai.
Getting sucked in off-stage when you're a stock behind is gai.

Other than that, it's really easy to spam fair on DDD. He's such a big target. He's also semi-easy to spike since his recovery is somewhat predictable. I also read on another thread that the stars from the end of DDD's up B can be absorbed with Psi Magnet.

@ Uffe:
Charged Usmash > Spot dodging
Short hopped Dair > Spot dodging

EDIT: IMO, 60-40 Ness... but then again, I have yet to play an awesome DDD

 

[Gaussis]

Shame on PK Nintendo for only doing it for one day. Hopefully, he comes back to both Fox and Falcon to give them a chance to discuss the matchup.

 

[Neon Ness]

WUT xoxokev, you gave the advantage to Ness!? Well, maybe I'm just horrible, but I say maybe 55-45 or at worst 60-40 Dedede. Those dang goons are the death of me. Also, forward tilt hurts my face on many occasions. I just have trouble getting close to him. Also, can't he eat the PK Thunder head utilizing the super armor frames of his up B? Causing us to fall to our death when trying to recover? Also, the wall of pain that comes from his foot blocks getting back onto the stage on several occasions.

Forward air is our friend here, and a lot of PK Thunda juggling. I don't use throws agains Dedede, I'm too scared that if I get too close he'll chaingrab me to kingdom come. Also, PK Furashu works wonders for recovery mindgamez.

 

[xoxokev]

WUT xoxokev, you gave the advantage to Ness!?

Well I stated that I have yet to play an awesome DDD... but yeah I'm open to other match-up numbers... to me DDD just seems like a big easy target... stay in the air, and stay ON-STAGE... play aggressive, and don't give DDD time to throw his "goons" or whatever at you

EDIT: also, when you get close, don't forget your Jab attack, which is probably faster than most of DDD's moves

EDIT 2: personally, I'm not too afraid of his CG, it stops when you get to the edge of the stage... but perhaps he COULD 0-death you, if DDD WoP's correctly. So yeah, don't be afraid to grab DDD, Ness' Dthrow is PERFECT for chaining Fairs on DDD

 

[Ref]

60-40 dedede with the advantage.

Dedede's a master gimper with his multi jumps. He is extremely heavy making him very hard to KO. He can shield grab many aerials, one grab leads to a chain grab that results in some good damage dealt.

While an F air can out prioritize most of his aerials, you can't always do this offstage because you want to come in ward to still be able to recovery. Staying at a halt even though you didn't get hit by his aerials, still causes problems

Key is stay offensive with F airs, Juggle him as much as you can, you need that extra percent in order to kill the guy.

Watch out for his up tilt.

PK Furasshu can be used on his recovery though.

Oh funny story, I was jabbing at Atomsk's king dedede, he spot dodged the whole AAA string 3 times then punished the last A the third time.

Dash attack and yo yo for his spot dodges...

 

[xoxokev]

Oh funny story, I was jabbing at Atomsk's king dedede, he spot dodged the whole AAA string 3 times then punished the last A the third time.

Dash attack and yo yo for his spot dodges...

Wow, I never knew DDD's spot dodge was that good, thanks for the info

 

[Earthbound Zero]

I say 55-45 Ness, Dedede is a huge target and is easy to PK Fire and Tailwhip. Recovering isn't that bad, considering Dedede is far away. If Dedede is close up, unless you're being risky, use the magnet stall recover, and Fair or Nair him if he gets too close. Bair is a pain, but I think Fair has more range. (Keyword: think. ^^; ) The chaingrabs are BAD, try to get a stage he has a hard time chaingrabbing on, like Norfair or Corneria away from the fin. Dtilt has annoying range, and leads into other things, but perfect shielding helps a bit. Try to distance yourself from Dedede, his projectile is annoying but Waddle Doos= Free Healing, and Waddle Dees don't do anything but make a wall of frames infront of Dedede, if he runs into them that is. ^^;

EDIT: Ref, isn't he easy to spike and his recovery easy to Tailwhip? o.o

 

[Ref]

He has super armor on the ascend, so if you want to spike him while he is on the way down, you can. Pk flash is a much better choice though if you ask me.

 

[ColinJF]

What the hell is "PK Furasshu"?

Dedede is a big target for pk thunder and pk thunder 2, and even though Waddle Dees aren't that important to Dedede's game, they aren't very good against Ness even if he wanted to use them. Dedede's shield doesn't cover his whole body for very long and is easily shield stabbed by moves like Ness's forward air or pk thunder. Dedede's weight isn't that big of a deal because he's one of the easiest characters to land pk thunder 2 against... his aerials aren't very good at attacking Ness or the head of pk thunder while avoiding the tail. (Well, down air is sort of good at doing that, but start pk thunder from a position where he can't hit you with down air.)

I want to say this is in Ness's advantage, but I don't have much Dedede experience...

In general Dedede doesn't have much defence against pk thunder.

 

[xoxokev]

Wow, I like this. We're getting a ALOT of discussion on DDD, and it's only been like a few hours... Although we are split between who has the advantage, I'd like to see what DDD mains think of this match-up, though I think most DDD mains may not have much experience playing good, or even decent, Ness users... we're somewhat of a rare breed...

 

[Earthbound Zero]

PK Furasshu= PK Flash

PK Flash is good for DDD's recovery, but I have the habit of always going for a spike/pillar spike when I fight my friend's who use DDD, though... a few of them are pretty bad. ^^; Can Dedede UpB out of PK Fire?

 

[Gaussis]

@Colin: PK Furasu is PK Flash in Japanese

DDD has the advantage until someone figures out what that penguin can't do. It's like the penguin is high and on steroids at the same time, being able to do those bairs and ftilts at high speed. Worse of all, he throws his pets at you and all you have is sparklies and fires to fend them off. And worse of all, he chaingrabs you like there is no tomorrow.

EDIT: Earthbound Zero beat me to it