PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[Ref]

Ike doesn't win any matchups except for vs. ganon and c.falcon. Just shield against him and you win. WOW HARD.

Sage plays bad Ikes/bad any character that he doesn't think is good.

Anyway sage doesn't know many good any character he thinks is bad players. Can't really blame him though.

 

[Uffe]

I've actually fought some Ike's that do the same thing and for some reason I just keep landing into that sword of his. As sad as it seems, thesage is right. Shield. I try going in the air against Ike and his sword out ranges me. Perhaps I should play it safe and be on the ground when he's in the air and vise versa.

 

[thesage]

yo yo grabs bananas? WHAT?

Diddy's aerials are crap vs. Ness lol.

Edit: Well it isn't just shield and win. When he's in the air bait him and after he whiffs hit him with fair. His moves are so predictable since they all have the same range. He's like a slow melee Marth lol. ALWAYS SHEILD when he does ground attacks though and never try to punish lag from his aerials since he'll know how to ac them well (if he's any good). If he djs away from you for no reason he's going for a fair.

Watch out for d-tilt spike.

 

[Dekar173]

Diddy > Ness

Diddy pros:
Peanut gimp F***s with Ness' recovery
Banana gimp does the same XD (Bananas interrupt PKT2)
racks up damage VERY fast
naner lock > spike (with proper spacing, it is guaranteed against Ness)
If you techchase (attempt a fair) a landed PK fire, he WILL DI out and Diddy hump you. Don't let him.
Ground game > > > > > > > > > > > Ness' ground game. Stay in the air (you shouldn't be on the ground anyway, silly Ness).
Grab release to dtilt? Not sure but I believe I've pulled it off. Someone test it.
Diddy kick can (and will) be autocanceled

cons:
Air game is inferior to Ness'
fB is predictable (it can go one of two distances, far, or short, both take the same amount of time)
PKT1 absolutely ***** Diddy. You can not use this move enough. It's too good.
Spike the predictable recovery.
You CAN single naner lock Diddy!!! Banana in hand: SH above Diddy, cstick down, cstick down, dash, repeat.
bthrow/bair kill~ 120. Too good.

But, in all honesty, this matchup goes to Diddy at least 60:40 in his favor. The character is just too fast and bananas are too sexy.

Protip: Sweet Jesus don't let him barrel cancel you (If he's charging his upB while you have a banana in hand, don't throw it. It will hit him, but not trip, and he'll send a barrel flying off in a random trajectory across the stage. They hurt).

 

[Gaussis]

Diddy > Ness

Diddy pros:
Peanut gimp F***s with Ness' recovery
Banana gimp does the same XD (Bananas interrupt PKT2)

How in the world does the peanut affect Ness????? PKT goes through those things!!! If you mean PKT2, I still don't see how they do...

Banana gimps (or item gimps in general) really only work if Ness is too close to the stage when Ness is recovering with PKT. Pulling back a slight bit before recovering solve the problem since the opponent has to position him/herself for the item gimp. I learned how to deal with it the hard way against ROB.

EDIT: For Ike, you can't be overly aggressive. There's a limit to how much you can follow up. I still don't believe it's even because Ness has good projectile followups against him and can defend from him relatively well. The only time Ness is in trouble is when he's being overly aggressive.

 

[thesage]

EDIT: For Ike, you can't be overly aggressive. There's a limit to how much you can follow up. I still don't believe it's even because Ness has good projectile followups against him and can defend from him relatively well. The only time Ness is in trouble is when he's being overly aggressive.

QFTFT.

10 gaussis knows Ike matchup.

Vs. Diddy I just spam fair and throw the bananas back at him. He's easy to gimp if he can't use side b (IDK what to do against it).

 

[_clinton]

Diddy > Ness
Diddy pros:
Peanut gimp F***s with Ness' recovery
Banana gimp does the same XD (Bananas interrupt PKT2)

My Ness seems to enjoy recovering low...so while bananas may cut short PKT2 and have a chance at gimping Ness w/o much of an issue if I let myself fall into their line...I don't see the peanut gimping me...you'd better be fast and true with that Naner though...and hope I don't have range to spare

racks up damage VERY fast
naner lock > spike (with proper spacing, it is guaranteed against Ness)

We know he ranks up damage fast...the issue with Diddy is landing the kill move right?
Can I see proof on the spiked naner lock though?

If you techchase (attempt a fair) a landed PK fire, he WILL DI out and Diddy hump you. Don't let him.

When someone tries to DI or attack me through the fire...I have this odd habit of throwing another PK Fire...

Ground game > > > > > > > > > > > Ness' ground game. Stay in the air (you shouldn't be on the ground anyway, silly Ness).

To be fair the only reason I see Diddy's ground game as being better then Ness' is because of the naners...

Grab release to dtilt? Not sure but I believe I've pulled it off. Someone test it.

You have 10 frames to do whatever you want to Ness from a grab release...I don't know if EIDI will avoid the Dtilt...but I do know that a jump break will...

Diddy kick can (and will) be autocanceled

How is this a plus for Diddy? Its like if I said "Ness' aerial PK Fires can and will be autocancelled" as well in the case of Plus for Ness...

cons:
Air game is inferior to Ness'

Well to be fair...about 90% of the cast in this game have an inferior air game to Ness ^_^

fB is predictable (it can go one of two distances, far, or short, both take the same amount of time)

Again...how is this a factor to a plus for Ness? PK Fire is predictable as well...but I wouldn't say it is a plus for Diddy...

PKT1 absolutely ***** Diddy. You can not use this move enough. It's too good.

Indeed...PK Thunder is a **** move...

Spike the predictable recovery.

You CAN single naner lock Diddy!!! Banana in hand: SH above Diddy, cstick down, cstick down, dash, repeat.

This is news to me...thank you...

bthrow/bair kill~ 120. Too good.

Couldn't you just say Ness' kill power beats Diddy's?

But, in all honesty, this matchup goes to Diddy at least 60:40 in his favor. The character is just too fast and bananas are too sexy.

Meh...again I don't see what Diddy does that really gives him the plus for the match...I mean Ness' air style sort of screws with the naners and speed isn't much of an issue as well (It's not like Ness is that slow in the end when it comes to air play or move set)

 

[PKNintendo]

Diddy > Ness

Diddy pros:
Peanut gimp F***s with Ness' recovery
Banana gimp does the same XD (Bananas interrupt PKT2)
racks up damage VERY fast
naner lock > spike (with proper spacing, it is guaranteed against Ness)
If you techchase (attempt a fair) a landed PK fire, he WILL DI out and Diddy hump you. Don't let him.
Ground game > > > > > > > > > > > Ness' ground game. Stay in the air (you shouldn't be on the ground anyway, silly Ness).
Grab release to dtilt? Not sure but I believe I've pulled it off. Someone test it.
Diddy kick can (and will) be autocanceled

cons:
Air game is inferior to Ness'
fB is predictable (it can go one of two distances, far, or short, both take the same amount of time)
PKT1 absolutely ***** Diddy. You can not use this move enough. It's too good.
Spike the predictable recovery.
You CAN single naner lock Diddy!!! Banana in hand: SH above Diddy, cstick down, cstick down, dash, repeat.
bthrow/bair kill~ 120. Too good.

But, in all honesty, this matchup goes to Diddy at least 60:40 in his favor. The character is just too fast and bananas are too sexy.

Protip: Sweet Jesus don't let him barrel cancel you (If he's charging his upB while you have a banana in hand, don't throw it. It will hit him, but not trip, and he'll send a barrel flying off in a random trajectory across the stage. They hurt).

I was with you for a while. But really, the Peanut???

No, decent Ness will get gimped by that. Like ever.

 

[PKNintendo]

I thought it was agreed upon in the Ike Match-up numbers listing that Ike and Ness are even?

Remember when you said a grab release jab was not enough of a reason to give Ike a slight advantage?

Guess not.

Isn't 55-45 even?
But getting hit by some jabs isn'that overwhelming or Wario would be bottom tier by now. (Ike can tilt him right?)

And Ness isn't that easy to grab. But I digress, we should redo Ike.

 

[Wave⁂]

You CAN single naner lock Diddy!!! Banana in hand: SH above Diddy, cstick down, cstick down, dash, repeat.

So this is with cstick set to smash attacks, right? You throw the naner, and catch it with an autocanceled dair? I know Diddy does it with his bair, fair, and uair.

 

[Nitrix]

I believe Diddy's two spikes lie in his dair and below the launch of his up b.

Note, holding one banana for as long as safely possible limits the amount he can use against you. Though it prevents you from using aerials it can come in handy sometimes.

If you count the Up-B as a spike, then Diddy technically has 2 spikes, and one semi-spike (His side-B).

Don't try and hold bananas, either throw them to where Diddy will have a hard time getting to, or throw them back at Diddy (But don't be predictable).

I don't see how it's anywhere in Diddy Kong's favor...

Ness' Aerials over run a lot of his. Ness can gimp Diddy Kong. Diddy may have good aerials but Ness' are better. Diddy kong can gimp too, but he doesn't necessary

A long ranged dash attack combined with bananas is a useful tool that Ness has in this match up.

Ness' Glide toss is slightly below average but his ranged dash attack makes up for the distance you don't go.

Grounded Ness can dash attack yo yo grab that's like all you need grounded anyway. It's a great combination for throwing Diddy off. Grab the banana and you can land all of these with quite a bit of ease.

I'm pretty sure it's like 60-40 or 55-45 Ness advantage.

Ness will also be using Aerials mostly so that's kinda hard for Diddy to deal with at times.

You guys have been playing quite a bit of Wifi, on wifi you can't shield anything so I want you guys to throw out any wifi experience you have in this match up.

- You guys need to stop completely disregarding Diddy's air-game. Yea, Ness has the advantage, but Diddy's F-Air is actually good and can catch Ness's off-guard.

- The Peanuts can gimp Ness, much like the Ice-Climbers can with their ice-blocks

- In terms of gimping, Diddy wins by a longshot. 2 Spikes and a Semi-Spike that all can easily kill Ness. Plus there are the peanuts, and Diddy's aerials.

- Diddy isn't useless without the bananas.

- I'd give this matchup to Diddy. His bananas give Ness trouble, and Ness doesn't have alot to compensate.

 

[PKNintendo]

If you count the Up-B as a spike, then Diddy technically has 2 spikes, and one semi-spike (His side-B).

Don't try and hold bananas, either throw them to where Diddy will have a hard time getting to, or throw them back at Diddy (But don't be predictable).




- You guys need to stop completely disregarding Diddy's air-game. Yea, Ness has the advantage, but Diddy's F-Air is actually good and can catch Ness's off-guard.

- The Peanuts can gimp Ness, much like the Ice-Climbers can with their ice-blocks

- In terms of gimping, Diddy wins by a longshot. 2 Spikes and a Semi-Spike that all can easily kill Ness. Plus there are the peanuts, and Diddy's aerials.

- Diddy isn't useless without the bananas.

- I'd give this matchup to Diddy. His bananas give Ness trouble, and Ness doesn't have alot to compensate.

Oh its you. I don't disregard his aerial game, but when compared to Ness, Ness is far superior.

What planet are YOU from? Peanuts will never gimp a good Ness. Like, ever.

In terms of gimping? Diddy has 2 decent spikes. His dair isn't even that strong, and getting a up B spike is difficult. Diddy's aerials aren't that good a gimping. And the peanut gun sucks at gimping.

Diddy isn't useless without the banana, but he's a bad character with them.

Banana's give alot of characters trouble.

 

[Wave⁂]

- You guys need to stop completely disregarding Diddy's air-game. Yea, Ness has the advantage, but Diddy's F-Air is actually good and can catch Ness's off-guard.

- The Peanuts can gimp Ness, much like the Ice-Climbers can with their ice-blocks

- In terms of gimping, Diddy wins by a longshot. 2 Spikes and a Semi-Spike that all can easily kill Ness. Plus there are the peanuts, and Diddy's aerials.

-Ness's bat can catch Diddy off-guard. Ness's PKT2 can catch Diddy off-guard.

-Eh... I wouldn't say a "longshot", but I think Diddy wins.

 

[thesage]

-Eh... I wouldn't say a "longshot", but I think Diddy wins.

In terms of gimping I think Ness wins actually. It's how I randomly beat ninjalink lol.

 

[PKNintendo]

In terms of gimping I think Ness wins actually. It's how I randomly beat ninjalink lol.

Dam Straight.

 

[Ref]

In terms of gimping I think Ness wins actually. It's how I randomly beat ninjalink lol.

Gimping pretty much like breaks the skill gap. Gimp from like 0% and you pretty much got a free stock advantage.

Ness does have a greater gimp advantage in this match up.

 

[Shaky]

Gimping pretty much like breaks the skill gap. Gimp from like 0% and you pretty much got a free stock advantage.

Ness does have a greater gimp advantage in this match up.

I agree, Ness has the gimp advantage over Diddy. The key to this matchup is to know how to work with the bananas, so learn how to use them!

 

[Nitrix]

Oh its you. I don't disregard his aerial game, but when compared to Ness, Ness is far superior.

What planet are YOU from? Peanuts will never gimp a good Ness. Like, ever.

lol, so I disagree with you in another thread and you carry your disapointment onto this one? You need to chill.

 

[Player-1]

Well I just had a whole little thing written up on how it's in Diddy's favor by 55-45 or 60-40 but then I accidentaly deleted it =( and I don't feel like typing it all again. The only thing I'm going to say now is that YES Diddy's peanuts gimp Ness (of any skill level) and that Diddy wins the gimping war easily.

 

[xoxokev]

Just curious, sage, PKN, Ref, and Shaky... how would you go about gimping a Diddy player? Dair? Cazcombo? Nair offstage?

 

[thesage]

Just dair teh barrel canon of failure. Don't really know how to deal with his side-b besides ledgehogging.

 

[xoxokev]

Just dair teh barrel canon of failure. Don't really know how to deal with his side-b besides ledgehogging.

Oh yeah, that makes sense... but will you have enough time to dair before Diddy can release his barrels? I think you're better off edge hogging if you see that Diddy is trying to sweet spot the ledge... And if Diddy is using his barrels farther away from the stage, it would be harder and not so safe to try and gimp... hmm

This whole "who can gimp better" deal is very biased imo

 

[Uffe]

I'm going to have to say that Mario has a better chance of gimping Ness than Diddy Kong. Besides, basing a match up on who can gimp who gets really annoying. I mean if Ness is going to use his PKT2 to return, then yes, it's going to be fairly easy to gimp. But seriously, Ness can still recover. It's not like that when he's knocked off the stage he's not coming back.

 

[Ref]

Peanuts nor banana's can really gimp. I mean banana's can slightly depending on DI. Peanuts of you DJ into them maybe. but I don't see how either really effect PKT2.

Peanuts can do Ice climber block effects but you can't aim Peanuts down there. Bananas can hit Ness but they don't completely push you down depending on how you DI them.

Aerials is what you really should be using, spiking Ness can be difficult at times. Ness' aerials makes landing yours hard when recovering.

Ness can PKT Diddy's recovery, a much more controllable thing. D air is landable especially on Diddy's recover, a move with start up and little defense other than release. Ness' recovery has a tail defense. You can always just hit him out of his up b too.


N air is great for knocking Diddy away, even F air or B air will do, F air is generally the better option. pk fire to d air is a maybe on his side b if he aims for the ledge.

Oh and Bananas' can gimp Diddy too can't they?

Other stuff:

Ness' N air easily grabs bananas so don't throw them at Ness during his N air from what it seems. I've done it so many times not trying to.

 

[PKNintendo]

Peanuts nor banana's can really gimp. I mean banana's can slightly depending on DI. Peanuts of you DJ into them maybe. but I don't see how either really effect PKT2.

Peanuts can do Ice climber block effects but you can't aim Peanuts down there. Bananas can hit Ness but they don't completely push you down depending on how you DI them.

Aerials is what you really should be using, spiking Ness can be difficult at times. Ness' aerials makes landing yours hard when recovering.

Ness can PKT Diddy's recovery, a much more controllable thing. D air is landable especially on Diddy's recover, a move with start up and little defense other than release. Ness' recovery has a tail defense. You can always just hit him out of his up b too.


N air is great for knocking Diddy away, even F air or B air will do, F air is generally the better option. pk fire to d air is a maybe on his side b if he aims for the ledge.

Oh and Bananas' can gimp Diddy too can't they?

Yes, and it's delicious.

 

[Shaky]

Just curious, sage, PKN, Ref, and Shaky... how would you go about gimping a Diddy player? Dair? Cazcombo? Nair offstage?

Pillar Spiking if you can predict he's returning with a side b.
PKT gimps his upb recovery :D.
Nair offstage is good but it doesn't guarantee a gimp.
Banana gimp!

 

[PKSkyler]

FYI

Theres A LOT of dead links on the first page.....

 

[PKNintendo]

Youch! Really? ****.

AdamentNess worked so hard too...

 

[Shaky]

Maybe they don't work for Skyler? They work fine for me.

EDIT: The problem is in the first page, maybe you copied them wrong. Since I tested on the page he posted them on, and all of them worked. Maybe you should just quote his post.

 

[thesage]

My matchup opinions >_>;

Major advantages: 70-30

Ike

Link

Advantages: 60-40

Yoshi

Samus

Sheik

Sonic

Bowser

Slight advantages: 55-45

Zelda

Toon Link

Lucas

Captain Falcon

Fox

Even: 50-50

Kirby

Lucario

Diddy

DK

Ice Climbers

Rob

Wario (not too much exp here)

Slight disadvantage: 45-55

Dedede

Falco

Disadvantage: 40-60

Metaknight

Marth

Snake

Major disadvantage: 30-70
N/a (thank god)

Undecided

Olimar

ZSS

Pit

Pikachu

Luigi

Mario

Peach

Jigglypuff

Feel free to comment/ask questions.

 

[Neon Ness]

thesage, I wanna know why you put 60:40 ...

I'm not tryna start anything, I just honestly want to hear your opinion on the matchup.

 

[Shaky]

My matchup opinions (Not very accurate though)

Major advantages: 70-30

Link

Jigglypuff

Advantages: 60-40

Yoshi

Samus

Sheik

Bowser

Olimar

Fox

Slight advantages: 55-45

Sonic

Ike

Zelda

Ice Climbers

Lucas

Captain Falcon


Even: 50-50

Luigi

Pikachu

Kirby

Lucario

Diddy

DK

Pit

ZSS

Slight disadvantage: 45-55

Dedede

Falco

Peach

Mario

Wario

Rob


Disadvantage: 40-60

Metaknight

Toon Link

Major disadvantage: 30-70

Snake



Feel Free to comment/ask qestions.

 

[thesage]

thesage, I wanna know why you put 60:40 ...

I'm not tryna start anything, I just honestly want to hear your opinion on the matchup.

I'm able to beat Sonic's that are clearly better players than me. I don't even have to try in that match and I win. I think people don't really understand how to fight Sonic. He doesn't have priority in the air and that f-smash is really predictable since he has to change up his spacing game. Sure he can move around fast, but that doesn't really throw me off since I play melee too. What confuses me sometimes is all the things that look like a spindash. TOO MANY. I always think he's doing a nair in the air and a side b on the ground. It's mad confusing. Just camp him and spam nair/fair. You have to play patiently and wait for the kill. Don't try any fancy stuff. Basic things can beat him pretty badly. I can't really elaborate because I think really weirdly when I play lol.

I think Sonic's the equivalent of Melee's Yoshi tier wise (some great Yoshi's existed, but he never really caught one and he just died after people learned how to fight him). Ness is melee IC's lol.

 

[Ref]

I want to do ganondorf next, mainly because that match up is even.

 

[thesage]

I want to do ganondorf next, mainly because that match up is even.

Yes

10agrees.

Edit: wait no, slight advantage to Ness. But it's definitely not ****.

 

[PKSkyler]

I love how you guys just "forgot" marth....


And Snake is top tier, but he isnt 30-70 imo. Really, I have more trouble with other people than Snake.



EDIT: and yeah, the second post on the first page, most of the links are broken. You proabbly copied them wrong, Nintendo. Go to wherever you copied them and try again, I guess.

 

[thesage]

Major advantages: 70-30

Ike

Link

Advantages: 60-40

Yoshi

Samus

Sheik

Sonic

Bowser

Slight advantages: 55-45

Zelda

Toon Link

Lucas

Captain Falcon

Fox

Even: 50-50

Kirby

Lucario

Diddy

DK

Ice Climbers

Rob

Wario (not too much exp here)

Slight disadvantage: 45-55

Dedede

Falco

Disadvantage: 40-60

Metaknight

Marth

Snake

Major disadvantage: 30-70
N/a (thank god)

Undecided

Olimar

ZSS

Pit

Pikachu

Luigi

Mario

Peach

Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer

Feel free to comment/ask questions.

I left out Marth since I just reoraganized what was in the op. I forgot to add him.

 

[Brinzy]

Ike doesn't win any matchups except for vs. ganon and c.falcon. Just shield against him and you win. WOW HARD.

If this isn't a ******** statement, then I'm not a man.

EDIT: And THEN you posted that? Ness has *zero* major advantageous match-ups in Brawl. He is far too easy to shut down. Marth is more than a 40:60. G&W, who you left out, is also more than a 40:60.

 

[thesage]

If this isn't a ******** statement, then I'm not a man.

You're a woman?

I'm sorry Ike is a bad character. So is Bowser. Srsly who loses to Ike? Jigglypuff?

 

[Brinzy]

If Ike and Bowser are bad, then Ness is trash, too. Ike's defensive game is amazing. Anyone can powershield ****ing projectiles, which gets rid of a lot of Ike's problem right there. Then he has one of the best ranges in the game, combined with top level power, to make every single hit count (which almost all are disjointed and reach farther than most attacks in this game, btw). He's killing you with *anything* but a throw at good %s, he's keeping you away effectively with his jab and nair, and he's actually keeping up with the rest of the cast speed-wise because nobody in this game can effectively run away from him and keep him at bay because his offense is seriously that good.

He has a poor recovery, a bit of lag on his attacks, and no projectile. Those, in my opinion, are his more obvious weaknesses. But he's also one of the best anti-air characters in the game, which Ness just happens to be a part of. You're crazy to think that Ness is hard-countering him.