Pivots and Peach - a discussion on how they could be implemented into her game

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Ok so I've contributed next to nothing recently and thought I'd make a thread on a topic I've been recently looking into

Firstly, I recommend you watch this video to understand what I'm talking about. Sadly it doesn't show Peach doing it but you'll get the idea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tmLsflA_c
Another one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9eYjgR9g1o

I'm bringing this up because Peach's Foxtrot actually has pretty decent distance - I measured around half the length of one of Battlefield's platforms

It's also got a very low cooldown
Because of these two factors, I believe that True Pivots could be a useful mix up in Peach's game and in particular (this is the important part) I think it could really help with spacing F Tilt. F Tilt comes out quick and has great range but suffers from a rather nasty cooldown. By using a True Pivot, you can quickly move out of say an incoming aerial and counterattack with a spaced F Tilt

I'm focusing on F Tilt because F Smash isn't reliable enough with it's range imo (although, potential to set up a Raquet Sweespot?) D Tilt is an option but the inputs can be fiddly so only try it if you're sure about it

If you've got a Turnip then you could Foxtrot back and then immediately Glide Toss forward at your opponent for a mix up

Who knows, maybe you could even use this to space Toad (eeeeeeeeeeeeee)


You can use any move out of the True Pivot and we're lucky in that we can also use Floating shenanigans straight away. If you don't fancy throwing out an attack move, then you could always buffer a Free Pull out of the pivot
And if you don't fancy pivoting at all, why not just Bone Walk away instead? The foxtrot ideally sets you up for a Bone Walk

So in a nutshell about Pivots
Pros
- Quick
- Covers decent distance
- Could potentially aid spacing of moves
- Can Float at point to during the pivot set up
- Sets you up for either a buffered Free Pull or Bone Walk

Cons
- Tripping risk
- Potentially useless due to Peach's Float (?)
- Lack of range on moves means distance covered by Foxtrot causes you to miss


So yea, go out and give this go. Sorry for the lack of colours, I'm not Meno thank goodness I'm afraid

 

[Airgemini]

Geez, no responses.
This is pretty interesting, this has actually never occurred to me to implement it in this way, lol. Normally I just go for shutter step Fsmashes. I'll try this out. Good stuff.

 

[Takumaru]

I wonder if this is faster than float canceling her dash. Do we have frame data for peach's "true pivot" window?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Geez, no responses.

I was very tempted to put a picture of some half naked guy on the OP to try and attract attention :/

I wonder if this is faster than float canceling her dash. Do we have frame data for peach's "true pivot" window?

According to hotgarbage's frame data, Peach's foxtrot lasts 21 frames so if you immediately buffer a move during the pivot inputs, I think you can just whack on 21 frames at the start of whatever move you're planning on throwing out
buuuuuut I'm not sure, I am assuming this is right because you can input a Turnip pull to Bone Walk on Frame 22

Performing an instant Float and then letting go of it straight away (if that's what you mean by float cancelling) takes 9 frames I think according to hotgarbages data (Jump is 6 frames and soft landing lag is 2 frames...dunno where that last frame goes)
I'd still need to have a better look but I'm fairly certain that, even if Floating and Foxtrotting to a certain position takes the same amount frames, Foxtrotting will get you to position X much faster than Floating there would which is why I think it's a better option since it gets you out of harms way quicker

I also need to have a look at how True Pivots compares to 'Wasping' - it's very unlikely you're going to wait the 20 frames needed for Bair to autocancel so you're looking at 9 frames of landing lag as well as the 6 frames needed to jump. This is slightly less than the 21 frames required for a Foxtrot however


A lot of this is speculation, hence why I want some discussion over it but I have used it a couple times in matches and I think the results are promising


P.S
This pivot thing only works for when you Foxtrot. If you're dashing and try to pivot, you'll end up undergoing your Dash Stop lag which is 14 frames so if you're keen on saving as many frames as possible, it's better to instant Float and drop out of a dash if you want to do anything apart from Shield

 

[Takumaru]

Here is one of the pivot threads that people might find useful. One of the videos links to it, but this saves you a click:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298292

Yeah, by float cancel I meant floating and dropping it instantly out of a float to cancel her dash.

I've been playing around with by myself. I haven't had a chance to play against another person yet. It seems like another way to mix things up on the ground in terms of movement and spacing.

 

[deepseadiva]

Interesting, but I'm personally unimpressed since it seems to fall into that group of micromanaged ground spacing techniques like wasping and float canceling. Flashy and situationally useful, but ultimatly barely worth mentioning.

 

[Meru.]

situationally useful

Funny you're saying this, because to be honest I think every AT Peach has falls under the category 'only situationally useful', with the possible exception of Glide Toss. That includes turnip stuff like bone walking etc. When mastered, however, each of these small techniques will accumulate and grand you an extra option out of every situation, which is never a bad thing.

Besides, it doesn't seem hard to master at all, especially since half the world pivots everything with everyone these days. It does get overshadowed by float, not only the instant float but also by ground float Bair and Fair, but like I said, gaining bonus options won't hurt. =)

 

[deepseadiva]

Yea, I'm not bashing it. It's just another coin in the huge change pocket that is our AT collection.

 

[Meru.]

Yup... Frankly I wonder what would happen if someone actually mastered all ATs, as in being able to pull them off perfectly in the correct situation. Surely it were flashy, but effective? Who knows.

 

[LanceStern]

An upairing stringing, parasol locking-to-ledge cancelling, bair or nair locking, death locking Peach....

Man that would be nice

 

[Razmakazi]

i use some of this stuff. i try to bait spam a lot. ya gotta be fast and all. just be fast and mix this up w/ other stuff coz it is after all just a gimmick and it'd be easy to get smashed out of the pivot if ppl know it's coming.

 

[z00ted]

yeah, I do this sometimes

even on accident too :o

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I probably should have been a bit clearer

By no means should you True Pivot out of every Foxtrot and use a move. I personally like to Foxtrot back as a means of baiting attacks due to it's speed. I find it a particularly nice mix up against an air happy opponent. Keep moving back quickly with a Foxtrot to bait them and then if they do come close, Foxtrot out the way and True pivot into an F Tilt. If the F Tilt misses, it's not a big deal since the distance you cover by the Foxtrot is large enough to keep you out harms way


Take Peach dittos for example. F Tilt is already super good in Peach dittos - True Pivots allow you to quickly Foxtrot out of the way of any incoming aerials and counter with a spaced F Tilt. The real mix up lies in whether you pivot and F Tilt or whether you go for a Bone Walk and get a Turnip. If you already have a Turnip, you could Glide Toss forward after your opponent has whiffed their aerial

If your opponent is really air happy and is constantly throwing out aerials, give this a try

 

[Razmakazi]

a lot of ppl use retreating foxtrots as bait but generally this gets to be something that's easy to read. every1 (players in general, not just the peaches) seem to think the foxtrot as it is can be sufficient bait aaaaall the time but it's not, ya gotta add in the wrinkles n stuff. i'm just saying to watch for when people adjust their spacing to chase you and definitely watch your stage positioning. A common mistake people make is to give up too much space and lose center stage while their trying to bait. Just know at some point you have to stop giving up real estate so to speak.


the bit about doin' it on air happy ppl is cool though but the same thing applies, ya don't wanna give up too much space. sneaking under ppl, running under them, etc. can be a better option sometimes.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

i'm just saying to watch for when people adjust their spacing to chase you and definitely watch your stage positioning. A common mistake people make is to give up too much space and lose center stage while their trying to bait

Yea this is very much the major drawback of this (see my last point on the Con list) - Peach doesn't really have many long range moves so if you over use this like you said, you're likely move so far back that you end up losing any advantages you might have in your stage position


Sorry if I seem to be banging on about this, I just wanted to make sure people at least gave it a go since it's very easy to write off minor AT's like this due to the vast quantity that Peach has

So yea, throw this out as a mix up or to help space F Tilt but don't spam it

 

[Razmakazi]

another thing, doesn't have to be ftillt.

it's not the most reliable move. it's quick but other move choices are just more reliable.

like fsmash for example is just bigger, stronger, and you don't stick out your hurtbox so it'll beat really high priority moves and swords which ftilt won't.

or like dtilt can be good too. like if u make ppl whiff an aerial then it's a good punish that strings when you connect, if you miss u can still move afterwards and stuff an approach w/ like sh dair or pivot grab or true pivot bs.

there's more but my point is is that on the issue of stopping approaches i ftilt isn't that reliable. jab prob has more utility in regards to that too.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

You're right, it doesn't have to be F Tilt but the reason I harp on about it is that it comes out much faster than F Smash and D Tilt and covers a wider range than Jab

F Tilt suffers from it's cooldown lag if you whiff it but I think this pivot malarkey helps space F Tilt

If you want to go for distance though Wasping definitely is better than this and if you want power F Smash is better than F Tilt. If your opponent looks like they're going to land then Jab or D Tilt is your best option


This certainly isn't going to move her up Tier places or vastly improve any match ups but meh, the more you know...

 

[Razmakazi]

I completely see what you mean and you aren't wrong but I'd just like to add a couple things.

Like w/ the fsmash, it's not just power, it's the priority, peach doesn't extend her hurtbox too so it's safer.

Another thing is that speed isn't as important. Frame 6, or 10 or 15 doesn't rly matter much because the situations you're using this for (an aerial opponent, someone running at u, baiting in the neutral position) doesn't require speed. It's like how Lucario's use their slow fsmash (frame 18-21 sumtin) for basically the same ends.

That bein' said though, the speed of the pivot itself prob makes it worth using and learning. how do ya do it input-wise? lol

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Do a Foxtrot and whilst you're Foxtrotting, return the Control Stick to neutral position and then tilt it to the opposite direction you're facing

It's a bit fiddly to do at first. If you don't get put the Control Stick back into neutral position and then attempt to buffer a turn around move, you end up Dash Attacking in the way you're still facing

I'm pretty certain that's how you do it anyway, that's what I've been doing