pivoting method question

[knightpraetor]

So ever since i learned that you can cancel the dash in such a way thta you don't have to have 1 frame timing to pivot, i've gotten better at pivoting.

But i was wondering about the method people use. My problem currently is i can only pivot by flicking the controller back lightly after the initial dash. By flicking i mean my finger only touches the stick for a moment..

the other possibility would be to keep your finger on the stick, but i'm wondering how feasible that is..does anyone do it that way?

the thing is, in order for you to cancel and turn around, you hvae to move the stick far enough to start a reverse dash, but it can't stay in that position for more than a frame i guess?

so if you were keeping you finger on the stick you would have to move it backwards lightly then immediately slam it back to neutral.

maybe i'm wrong about how pivoting works.. but this really doesn't seem very feasible..the timing's just too tight. so right now i'm just flicking, which only really allows me to do forward smashes easily..since my finger isn't on the control stick i can pivot tilt but it comes out slower than it should because i hvae to get my finge rback on the stick.

anyways, those of you who can pivot..discuss your method and/or what you can pivot...because currently i seem to be limited to pivoting smashes

 

[FrostByte]

IMO, it isn't worth trying to pivot anything but smashes. I'd like to see good use of pivoting the utilt. For another method of pivoting you can get me on MSN in my profile or ask someone like FLT or velox.

 

[Cactuar]

I pivot jab quite a bit.

 

[ArcNatural]

I can pivot jab, and pivot smashes pretty well. Pivot jabbing I do the way you do. I just dash then flick back and jab A. I have a really easy way of doing Pivot fsmashes though.

I just dash then as soon as I go to dash again I just hit the c-stick in the desired smash. I found it easier to do opposite directions (dash forward, dash away + c-stick forward) easier at first. but now as long as im in a dash dance animation i can do it 90% of the time. The only uses I have for it though are from f-throw and fairs. F-throw to dash forward pivot Fsmash can catch quite a few. And Fair to dash back fsmash works occasionally as well.

As for pivot tilting, I just do it by dashdancing and right when I pivot just not going all the way (barely from neutral) and it works farely well. Much easier to do jab and smashes though. I guess this means I do it from the 1 frame? It's really not that hard to time once you get the c-stick part down imo.

 

[FrostByte]

Just FFR It's easier to pivot using a newer, plastic-like controller when compared to the older controllers. Either that or my current controller is just messed.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You can also pivot jumps and grabs using that flicking method. It's really a usefull method of pivoting reliably. The only real other way I can think of is to actually practice that one frame timing version for the tilts.

 

[G@BE]

FastLikeTree pivots are the best

 

[Velox]

Fast like who?

I only hear legends of the Texas players.

 

[Aesir]

I pivot into fsmash in the direction you were facing. basically what it lookslike, you dash and fsmash forward its cool.

yeah >_> no relevence at all I just wanted to brag.

 

[Inkslinger]

pivot utilt is underrated, very useful,it's just very hard >_<.

 

[ArcNatural]

I've been playing with this for like 2 hours lol... 2am-4am fun. Something to help practice pivot ftilts listen to the controller. If you do the flicking motion if you hear the control stick hit the side of the controller you can't ftilt. But if you can do the dash pivot stand without hitting the side of the controller you can ftilt out of this pretty easily. Let me just say that while I can't seem to get uptilts to work out of this, pivot dtilts look downright sexy. Going to put a lot of work into that. If I can perfect pivot dtilts the possibilities are endless.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^It would make the ultimate taunt. D-tilt and use the IASA frames to pivot another D-tilt. That's just TOO SEXY. Lol

 

[ArcNatural]

^^It would make the ultimate taunt. D-tilt and use the IASA frames to pivot another D-tilt. That's just TOO SEXY. Lol

:o I like that idea, too bad for some reason now I can only pivot to downsmash. On the bright side pivot jab, pivot ftilt, and pivot fsmashes have never been easier lol.

 

[knightpraetor]

so are you saying that when you use the flicking method your fingers stay on teh controller? i always have to release or i push it too far too long

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Yes that's what he's saying and it's an excellent to maintain control while pivoting. It may take a while to train your thumb to have that kind of restraint but it's a large step foward to controlling pivots. I'll definately work on this for a while so I can do it consistantly.

 

[ArcNatural]

It's still the flicking motion, it's just where you let go of the control stick before the flicking motion is complete. This in turn gives you the relaxed frame rates of the flick, with the control of a 1 frame turn. So while my hand technically is still on the controller when I hit A, I'm still letting go all together. The dtilt and uptilt once are extremely tricky to do fast, as you need to barely hit up or down and hit A while pivoting 1 frame. Hit too far up or down and you will smash attack instead. I can almost do the dtilt consecutively but it puts so much strain on the thumb to be so accurate lol.

 

[knightpraetor]

so basically i just have to learn to flick it far enough but let it repress back slightly so that it doesn't keep dashing, and then hit A.

tilts have to be holding the direction at the same time you press A? and smashes are pressing A and a direction at the same time? or does it just ahve to be within ten frames or so?

anyways, i still am confused as to whether you actively move the stick back to neutral after the flick and then move back to a tilt or if you just flick it and then let it slide back just enough so that you can tilt but that it would no longer be trying to dash.

regardless, this pivoting stuff is challenging.

I find cactuar's post on pivoting a little laughable..he acted like pivoting was easy and RSHDL was hard seriously RSHDL i was doing it within 5min of trying:\ granted i'd played falco for 6months at the time..but seriously..i've been trying to pivot for ages!

 

[ArcNatural]

Ok look at it this way when you do the pivot flick it should when you do it right this should make Marth dash then stand upright while turning around. If this is what you do then we are on the same page. The difference is how you flick it. If you flick it hard you will still stand up and turn around, but if you hit A during this you will forward smash, if you flick it lightly so that you don't hit the side of the controller stick wall you will STILL stand up but if you hit A during this animation you will ftilt.
Edit: should also mention that if you pivot flick and hit A after letting go of the flick it is the jab.

Note: When I mean during the animation this is pretty instant (i.e. the first frame pretty much) You should not see Marth turn around rather you should see the pivoted tilt, smash and jab.

 

[Velox]

I remember I first saw FLT using pivots at FC6, and then later, in more depth, I got to watch him play a lot at a tournament in December (Joe Michael 2) of last year. I thought, "Wow, that looks useful, I think I'd like to learn that." So in December I set out to do just that, and after working with it for a while, I realized, it's not that hard to do, yet, it's unbelievably useful. In fact, it is the centerpiece to my game now, around January I totally restructured my game around it. It's really a trump card I have, an extra movement utility, that nobody else does. I still get ***** a lot though XD, even with such an amazing tool (I hate this game).

The method I use to do it (the real work behind pivots):

To do anything that requires left to right movement of the joystick (pretty much just f-smash and f-tilt), it's ok, and I advise it in fact, to use the "old" method of just timing the 'A' button in the stand-up frame of the dash dance (you know, the turnaround part).

Here is a secret I use for the timing on this one (everything tech skill related can be made easier by a "secret" to help you with the timing):

Let us assume you are Marth dashing right, and you want to pivot f-smash to the left. To do that, jam the joystick to the left fairly hard (not hard, but fast, don't try and break your controller). As the joystick goes to the left, keep in mind the time when it just passes the half way point (the neutral joystick position), but before it gets all the way in the direction you are going. That is when you press 'A'. The theory behind this is, the time it takes the joystick to travel from neutral position to all the way to the left is about one frame. If you can just press the 'A' button when the joystick gets in between those two positions, you are guaranteed a pivot. This works great for jumps as well (which means grabs too, always pivot JCed grabs, not only are they easier than 'Z' grabs, you are not totally lagged out if you mess up). Trust me, it works, here are some vids of my Marth to prove my points. Now, I don't claim to have amazing tech skil, and really I don't have all that much tech skill, that's not what this is about, but you can see that I have a pretty good pivoting game. Pivoting can be done 100% (although maybe not by me, but that will always be my goal, with any move), people just need to work with it more often and they will lose their fear of doing such a "risky" technique (I don't see it as risky at all, no more than wavedashing). I have a pretty good dash dancing game, and that makes it easier, usually you see people who are left handed (I'm not though) have better tech skill because they have better movement (the ability to control the left joystick more effortlessly; IE. They can move the left joystick faster and more presise, perfect for pivots.) I remember a thread by Ken a while back that described this inherited advantage, and I couldn't agree more. This can be overcome by practice of course, you just need to build the coordination/muscle up in the left thumb. Also, you'll see generally the best implementation of what pivoting is best used for (evading attacks, and striking back):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTJ0YaTdEo4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tid1sg_TWn0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL29VHfl1Bo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3VpUJg4h_M

To do anything else, you're going to have to use the "flick" (I call the FLT) method. I can't really help you on this one, you just need speed. Practice a lot and build up the muscle in your hand so that you are even capable of such an action. I also feel that keeping you thumb on the joystick at all times is impractical in this technique, as well as useless. Why is it useless? Think about it. Why is it that newer controllers are better for pivoting? The answer is, the joystick is tighter, therefore it springs back into position quicker. Springs back into position. What I'm getting at is that you have to wait for the joystick to spring back to the neutral postition after the pivot anyway, and that's about how long it takes for your thumb to make it back to the joystick after the "flick", so how is it that you think the other method is faster? It will be faster just to let the spring flick the joystick back to neutral instead of somekind of inhuman manuver where you pivot and then immediatly go into the u-d-tilt.

There's also lots of added benefits of pivoting that you don't realize till much later, for instance, I've recently started dabbling in "Tree Grabbing", an extremely useful, although very very hard, pivoting technique. You can think of it as just creating an extremely large dash dance radius in which to pivot out of. But really, learn the basics of pivoting and exactly how it can help better your game before moving on to more abstract techniques that at first glance, you don't quite even know how it could be useful. In the context of Tree Grabbing, one of it's major uses is when you want to run away, like half a stage away, from the opponent and still be able to do your pivot grab, you now can!

One of these days I'm gunna get around to writing a tech skill guide, I'm just way too lazy to finish it... ...way too lazy...

 

[knightpraetor]

so while i don't doubt that you can do pivots..that doesn't necessarily mean it occurs for the reasons you think it does. So now i'm very curious how pivoting works...what you described isn't how i was told it works at least.

Let us assume you are Marth dashing right, and you want to pivot f-smash to the left. To do that, jam the joystick to the left fairly hard (not hard, but fast, don't try and break your controller). As the joystick goes to the left, keep in mind the time when it just passes the half way point (the neutral joystick position), but before it gets all the way in the direction you are going. That is when you press 'A'. The theory behind this is, the time it takes the joystick to travel from neutral position to all the way to the left is about one frame. If you can just press the 'A' button when the joystick gets in between those two positions, you are guaranteed a pivot.

i always thought that the pivot occurs after the flick..not when crossing neutral...because slight distances from neutral won't change your dash direction, and pivoting occurs right before the dash occurs. so logically i would think you would press A after you hit halfway between neutral and the side. so am i wrong about how pivoting works? because if the pivot can occur right after the neutral position when flicking across without any dash motion possible at all, then that saves me a lot of trouble.

They can move the left joystick faster and more presise, perfect for pivots.) I remember a thread by Ken a while back that described this inherited advantage, and I couldn't agree more. This can be overcome by practice of course, you just need to build the coordination/muscle up in the left thumb. Also, you'll see generally the best implementation of what pivoting is best used for (evading attacks, and striking back):

zomg that's brilliant. I'm buying a right handed controller...there's got to be one somewhere...or maybe brawl will have options to let me use the c-stick as the control stick and the control stick as the c-stick..that would be hot..i claw so it won't be a problem if so..but ya..i've always felt my left hand lacked coordination

To do anything else, you're going to have to use the "flick" (I call the FLT) method. I can't really help you on this one, you just need speed. Practice a lot and build up the muscle in your hand so that you are even capable of such an action. I also feel that keeping you thumb on the joystick at all times is impractical in this technique, as well as useless. Why is it useless? Think about it. Why is it that newer controllers are better for pivoting? The answer is, the joystick is tighter, therefore it springs back into position quicker. Springs back into position. What I'm getting at is that you have to wait for the joystick to spring back to the neutral postition after the pivot anyway, and that's about how long it takes for your thumb to make it back to the joystick after the "flick", so how is it that you think the other method is faster? It will be faster just to let the spring flick the joystick back to neutral instead of somekind of inhuman manuver where you pivot and then immediatly go into the u-d-tilt.

agreed..i didn't think of it like that before..but ya it probably is just as fast if not faster...i doubt a human motion will be faster than a couple frames.

 

[Velox]

so while i don't doubt that you can do pivots..that doesn't necessarily mean it occurs for the reasons you think it does. So now i'm very curious how pivoting works...what you described isn't how i was told it works at least.

i always thought that the pivot occurs after the flick..not when crossing neutral...because slight distances from neutral won't change your dash direction, and pivoting occurs right before the dash occurs. so logically i would think you would press A after you hit halfway between neutral and the side. so am i wrong about how pivoting works? because if the pivot can occur right after the neutral position when flicking across without any dash motion possible at all, then that saves me a lot of trouble.

That is very true, but I'm still right in my method I'll explain it in more detail as to why I'm right:

It takes me roughly a frame to move the joystick passed the "neutral" position and into the "hard left" position, and due to the fact that you press the 'A' button in that void, it doesn't actually cause Marth to do anything until the next frame, which is the frame when the joystick hits the full left position, the frame in which Marth does the pivot

To guarantee the timing, it is necessary to be able to move the joystick across from the plane of movement in a frame, other wise it becomes much harder to time when moving the joystick in a slow fashion.

 

[ArcNatural]

I understand what you mean Velox, I feel I do them the same way you do. Can you do pivot dtilts or uptilts at all? Now when I try I just do downsmashes and upsmashes. But that one night I did 2 pivot dtilts in a row makes me want to at least understand how I did it. I can do this with the flick method but it's much slower as its well after the pivot that I actually can recover my thumb and dtilt. If you can do them at all and have some idea of how to do them (hopefully better than me) that would be nice to know.

The way I think its done is after dashing right let's say when you go to dash left you have to dash left and down and hit A during the one frame. Does this sound like the proper way to dtilt pivot?

 

[Velox]

For u-tilts and d-tilts, you pretty much are forced to do the "flick" method and then as quickly as you possibly can, go into the tilt like you normally would. Although that seems like one of the "slower" methods, it's actually pretty amazing how fast you can get it if you really set your mind to it. Really, there isn't much help for tilts, other than you need fast fingers. Keep in mind that you have to let the joystick auto-center after the pivot anyways before you go into the tilt, like I said before, I couldn't think of another way to do it, it would be too inhuman to do some sort of manuver instead of letting the joystick center itself, and really, you can get the same speed out of the pivot method if you go as fast as you can. You don't have to wait for Marth to fully turn around after a "flick" pivot, you can immediatly go into the tilt after your pivot, which doesn't seem like it should work, but it does. I had someone argue this to me a while back, but really, whenever I practice this I am quite sure I can do the u-tilt as soon as I pivot, canceling that "animation" that Marth does after a pivot where you don't do any moves AKA the "flick" pivot.

I don't really find tilts much harder than normal pivot stuff (such as the jab), it just takes some getting used to. I can do the tilts, I just mess up the spacing a lot on them, like sometimes I dash a foot and then pivots, sometimes I dash as far as I can before I pivot, because I'm concentrating too much on what I'm going to do after the pivot, I mess up the distance a lot, that's my main problem with tilts really I used to be better at it like last month too, I think I practiced too much, and as a result, my left thumb like spazes out all the time now, so I haven't really played much recently, which is actual better for my tech skill. I just play like once a week now with friends, it's sort of like lifting weights, you need time to heal. I don't know how Mew2King does it. Anyways...

This stuff is really hard to explain Even I'm confusing myself sometimes...


Now the real question of the topic is... do the members of DA DA Dash a lot? Which member of DA invented it?

 

[Realizzle]

Now the real question of the topic is... do the members of DA DA Dash a lot? Which member of DA invented it?

It was phillybilly who created the "DA Dash". Strictly speaking, the DA dash, as created by ron (phillybilly), referred to timing a move in the 1 frame window you have when turning around in a dash dance.

Now, Velox, the technique you use "To do anything else, you're going to have to use the "flick" (I call the FLT) method" is FAR superior, and I'll try to explain it simply for the people who might be a little confused.

In lay man's terms, what Velox does is he pivots into a neutral stance and THEN does any move he wants out of the neutral stance. The key here is this: pivoting into a neutral stance is SO MUCH EASIER than trying to time a move in the 1 frame window of the traditional "DA dash"

The only problem is, describing the controller movement of this is really difficult. The people (at least in texas) who I know thave have total control over this "flt method" are FLT, mr. c, and velox. I think the fact that a few people have really strong control over it is a testament to its potential usefulness by many smash players. Strictly striclty speaking, you are "DA dashing" into a neutral stance and then doing a move out of the neutral stance, so are you getting the same "1 frame" quickness you can from doing a move using the traditional DA dash (i.e. timing it in the 1 frame window?)

The answer is not always, but it's fast enough to deal damage in most situations you might encounter that call for a pivot, but most importantly, it's SO MUCH EASIER than trying to time everything in a 1 frame window.

By the way Velox your marth is really solid. You really get gimped on a lot of your deaths. You should try to be more careful and work on getting out of some of the long combo strings you get into.

 

[Velox]

Realizzle just might be one of my new favorite people You understand me so well

 

[knightpraetor]

uggh, tech skill is so much of a pain to learn.. I still can't seem to get pivots when going left with much accuracy. that said, i can always pivot behind me with the method mentioned above..

however, i really want to able to fsmash after fthrow combo on sheik..so i have to get this down somehow:\ it just feels like i have to shift my grip to any kind of good direction for the flick.

one question i do have is how do you people tend to dash dance..do you do light flicks most of the time barely holding it long enough..or do you tend to keep your finger on the stick?

i'm considering shifting my style so that i don't keep my fingers on their normally..that way maybe it won't be such a pain to shift grip.

on a brighter note...while this isn't going so well..RSHDL has gone very well, and i also will soon be able to use tripleshining in my game..not sure why i need it..but meh it's summer..i have nothing to do and no one to play

 

[Dark Sonic]

Not by Emblem Lord, but still pretty usefull. bump to top.

 

[Gian]

same with this one sonic wave.....

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=108237&page=2

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Velox, how do you make sure you do either a ftilt or fsmash? I can get either of them pretty consistently, but I can't make sure I get the fsmash when I want it or the ftilt. How do you do it?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Velox, how do you make sure you do either a ftilt or fsmash? I can get either of them pretty consistently, but I can't make sure I get the fsmash when I want it or the ftilt. How do you do it?

For F-smash, you could just use the c-stick instead of the a button.

F-tilt is much harder though. If you are using the flick method then you have to make sure to press A during the time between the control stick hitting the side and it returning to neutral, which is a very small window.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

For F-smash, you could just use the c-stick instead of the a button.

F-tilt is much harder though. If you are using the flick method then you have to make sure to press A during the time between the control stick hitting the side and it returning to neutral, which is a very small window.

Ahh, so you should do it when the stick is returning to neutral, not moving from neutral to the side. Thank you.

Great thread btw.

 

[AustinRC]

I think no Marth player should play without pivoting. Its amazingly useful one of the most useful things for Marth. He can do tilts grabs smashes arieals he can do so much and so quickly or maybe thats just my opinion.

 

[4 Aces]

I realize that pivots are really good, but I just can't seem to grasp how to use it. Or why it's so good. I guess I need some scenarios where it might be useful.

 

[Junpappy]

Fsmash out of dash-dance...

 

[Velox]

better learn now

ther're going to be HUGE in brawl

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

better learn now

ther're going to be HUGE in brawl

But isn't pivoting much easier in Brawl because you can do any attack in the whole dash animation?

 

[Velox]

i dunno, i haven't been really paying attention because i don't like this game, it's stupid

also, pivoting like grabs with sonic going to be outrageously good...

 

[Dark Sonic]

also, pivoting like grabs with sonic going to be outrageously good...

QFT

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