Pit: Official Character Discussion

[Ulevo]

Discussion for Pit. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. Popular suggestions/values will be marked as such. Final values will be determined by popularity, so voice your opinion!

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:


Default Physics:
SH:
FH:
FF:
DGrav:
Grav:

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:


Anything else:

 

[The Cape]

Get decayed wings back after getting hit? This will make him harder to hit and allow Pit to enjoy the same luxury of multiple up and Bs that most characters get.

 

[Ulevo]

Get decayed wings back after getting hit? This will make him harder to hit and allow Pit to enjoy the same luxury of multiple up and Bs that most characters get.

I think this change is needed personally. His recovery is sub par at best when he isn't able to use his glide effectively, which happens a lot due to the gravity changes. He also doesn't deal large amounts of damager per stock, or KO relatively easily, so long stocks are supposed to help compensate this (via recovery in this instance).

 

[kupo15]

Pit is rather balanced bit is actually kinda mediocre and I would like to see some small buff to make him a bit more solid move wise. I think an excellent addition would be to make the entire dtilt spike that way it can be much more useful on stage. Pit doesn't combo well enough as it is and having this move to keep them closer a little longer than it does would really help pits game out.

I would also like to propose an angle adjustment on his angle ring that way it doesn't lock people in their shields. I think this fix would give more shield push back.

 

[goodoldganon]

Playing as Pit everyone and a while I can say I agree with both of those.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't think an angle adjustment would really fix the shield locking problem. However, I do think that would be useful anyway. Make the multihits knock them slightly up or something, so you can get a quick d-tilt after it. You can already do this if they get launched into the top of the ring by the first hit, but that's kinda...really situational.

To make it not lock shields? Just slightly reduce the base knockback (which reduces the stun they cause) and give it a slightly higher knockback growth. This keeps it's usage basically the same, but reduces the shield stun it causes so it's not incredibly gay.

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't think an angle adjustment would really fix the shield locking problem. However, I do think that would be useful anyway. Make the multihits knock them slightly up or something, so you can get a quick d-tilt after it. You can already do this if they get launched into the top of the ring by the first hit, but that's kinda...really situational.

To make it not lock shields? Just slightly reduce the base knockback (which reduces the stun they cause) and give it a slightly higher knockback growth. This keeps it's usage basically the same, but reduces the shield stun it causes so it's not incredibly gay.

Sorry to get off topic but that works? If so that needs to happen to Lucas's N-air...NOW!

 

[kupo15]

I don't think an angle adjustment would really fix the shield locking problem. However, I do think that would be useful anyway. Make the multihits knock them slightly up or something, so you can get a quick d-tilt after it. You can already do this if they get launched into the top of the ring by the first hit, but that's kinda...really situational.

To make it not lock shields? Just slightly reduce the base knockback (which reduces the stun they cause) and give it a slightly higher knockback growth. This keeps it's usage basically the same, but reduces the shield stun it causes so it's not incredibly gay.

I think the main problem with shield locking has to do with shield push back though. If you notice, pit isn't pushed back very far which keeps the hitboxes at the center of the shield instead of shield poking at a certain point

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think the main problem with shield locking has to do with shield push back though. If you notice, pit isn't pushed back very far which keeps the hitboxes at the center of the shield instead of shield poking at a certain point

So? Shield pushing pushes the defender backwards, not the offensive player. This means it would still cause shieldlocks when done against a wall. Reducing the shieldstun would allow the opponent to drop their shield during the move, but none of their options would be fast enough to avoid getting hit (even rolling and spotdodging), so all they'd gain is the option to either take the hit and save their shield, or let their shield get eaten until they're pushed out of range and avoid taking damage.

And we are going to consider walled stages as possible counterpicks right? There's nothing overpowered about them anymore EXCEPT shield locks (which we should be fixing). AFAIK, most wall infinites are gone and any existing ones can be fixed, so I want to fix shield locking with the possibility of using these stages in mind.

Sorry to get off topic but that works? If so that needs to happen to Lucas's N-air...NOW!

afaik that's how it works. Shieldstun looks like it has a direct correlation with the knockback of the move and since shield stun does not vary with percentage then it obviously does not take into account knockback growth. What I don't know is the exact formula for calculating it and exactly how much reducing the base knockback of a move will reduce shieldstun. But for borderline moves I think even 2 frames less would be enough.

 

[The Cape]

DDD multijab may still sheild break with a wall. Leave that in or take it out if we fix Pit's thing?

 

[kupo15]

So? Shield pushing pushes the defender backwards, not the offensive player.

the opposite is true against a wall

This means it would still cause shieldlocks when done against a wall. Reducing the shieldstun would allow the opponent to drop their shield during the move, but none of their options would be fast enough to avoid getting hit (even rolling and spotdodging), so all they'd gain is the option to either take the hit and save their shield, or let their shield get eaten until they're pushed out of range and avoid taking damage.

ATM, the offensive player gets pushed back when the defensive player can not move and I don't think the push back is enough for this move. I think a better solution would be to increase pushback somehow so the move can eat the shield enough to poke them

 

[kupo15]

Instead of making the dtilt always spike, maybe a better idea would be to increase the hitbox size now that we can do it

 

[Dark Sonic]

Or...we could make it a meteor for the meat of the blade and only have the original spike hitbox be a spike. That way it would still retain it's newfound onstage use.

 

[kupo15]

I'm pretty sure the original hitbox is a meteor and not a spike. Does the dtilt also pull in a little? Its a really fast attack with a big range that its almost a little too good as a meteor if you don't have some help to ledge tech.

Or we can increase the size of the spike hitbox but also add some hitbox code to change the hitbox so it can spike onstage as well because the normal non spike box does have its advantages also but by making the spike box more viable on stage would help the versatility of the move

 

[kupo15]

I agree with cape's assessment so try this:
Dsmash first hitbox. The power is the same as the strongest hitbox and the angle is a little bit lower to make it not the same angle as the fsmash because it was the same as the fsmash
170C5A19 0216902F
* 0C642302 001E0000
* FFFFFFFF 3F800000
* 170A5A12 0216902F
* 0A642302 001E0000
* FFFFFFFF 3F800000
* 170D5A1E 0216902F
* 0D642302 001E0000
* FFFFFFFF 3F800000

another suggestion would be to make ftilt stronger.

 

[Dark Sonic]

01:36 <Dark_Sonic> kay
01:36 <Dark_Sonic> first of all the fix for Pit's d-tilt
01:37 <Dark_Sonic> switch the two hitboxes on it so the meteor is outside and the spike is inside
01:37 <Dark_Sonic> then make the meteor hitbox larger and the spike hitbox smaller (basically switching them)
01:38 <Dark_Sonic> or you could remove the spike hitbox altogether and just enlarge the meteor (though I feel this could get disproportional when it comes to VERTICAL range)
01:38 <Dark_Sonic> for his side B you should lower the BKB of the weaker hits, reducing the shieldstun they cause (to get rid of shield locking)
01:39 <Dark_Sonic> Now then onto the buffs
01:40 <Dark_Sonic> I feel that Pit should get lower windown lag on dair and uair to allow for more auto cancels (less windown on dair will let him full jump with a uair and have it auto cancel on platforms)
01:42 <Dark_Sonic> if possible, up B should have a larger windbox and it should push opponents farther, to make wingdashing...useful
01:44 <Dark_Sonic> since side B will no longer have as much stun due to the lower launch speed, I feel it's endlag should be sped up a little (it's not exactly a high priority move doing 2-3% per hit)
01:44 <Dark_Sonic> Also, the initial hit should send the opponent at a slightly higher angle (knocking them into the TOP of the ring rather than the bottom of it)
01:45 <Dark_Sonic> Suprisingly, it does combo into other moves when the opponent is forced to fall, because of the 2 frames of natural landing lag that occurs from hitting the ground
01:45 <Dark_Sonic> even if you aren't comfortable with the timing, it could be a nice frametrap
01:47 <Dark_Sonic> due to the amount of landing lag that Pit's moves have, he's often forced to rely on auto cancels for his aerials
01:47 <Dark_Sonic> This isn't a bad thing, but he misses a few combo opportunities because the opponent is too low to the ground and even if he aerials them, he just can't follow up
01:49 <Dark_Sonic> I think a SLIGHTLY lower ALR on fair and bair (like 45) and a larger one on uair (40) would allow him to make the air to ground transition more fluid in his pursuit game
01:49 <Dark_Sonic> as well as making falling uair...usable
01:51 <Dark_Sonic> upsmash feels very lack luster right now, and doesn't always chain correctly (DIing the second hit makes it not chain, and missing the first hit prevents it from chaining as well)
01:52 <Dark_Sonic> we should make it chain better
01:53 <Dark_Sonic> Dash attack would be much better if it had less endlag since you'd then be able to combo from it. Currently there's no reason to use it over d-tilt
01:53 <Dark_Sonic> It should still be punishable on block or whiff of course
01:54 <Dark_Sonic> f-tilt, needs either an ending lag reduction or a KB increase, because currently it's both bad at spacing and bad at killing
01:55 <Dark_Sonic> I'd personally go with the end lag reduction since it would allow Pit to pursue them (it wouldn't be as effective as just killing them...but it would be cooler )
01:55 <Dark_Sonic> I don't expect ALL of these changes to get in, but what I think REALLY SHOULD GET IN are
01:55 <Dark_Sonic> -d-tilt and side B problem fixes
01:56 <Dark_Sonic> -side B initial hit angle change
01:56 <Dark_Sonic> -up B wind buff (size and pushback)
01:57 <Dark_Sonic> -lower windown on uair and dair (especially dair)
01:59 <Dark_Sonic> -ftilt endlag reduction
02:01 <Dark_Sonic> -lower ALR on fair and bair (45%), lower ALR on uair (40%)
02:05 <Dark_Sonic> I think these 5 minor buffs will help Pit expand his game in new areas (wind pushing becomes more useful, side B becomes a suprise combo starter?) and strengthen others (f-tilt becomes better at keep away, uair becomes better at protecting his head, dair protects below him, he can follow up after fair and weak bair more often, ect)
02:06 <Dark_Sonic> The other buffs are just pet peeves of mine, trying to make bad moves not so bad (dash attack is pretty decent at mid-high percents on fast fallers though)
02:07 <Dark_Sonic> Okay done...


Okay, well actually I forgot a few. Jab needs a higher base (or growth? However jabs work) to have a little more stun. It has more endlag than most jabs and as a result, doesn't put him at a frame advantage like the other jabs do (despite having comparable range and damage). And weak bair could use a higher base to knock people over on the stage.

Thoughts? (I tried to go with creative stuff, cause normal changes are dull )

 

[The Cape]

Does this include the stuff we discussed DS?

[17:07] <Dark_Sonic> I definitely don't think has one of the worst recoveries in the game <.<
[17:07] <TheCape> pit?
[17:08] <Dark_Sonic> yeah
[17:08] <TheCape> I was thinking upB only
[17:08] <TheCape> But what do you think of the list as a whole?
[17:08] <Dark_Sonic> But the thing is
[17:08] <Dark_Sonic> he rarely needs to use it
[17:08] <TheCape> true
[17:08] <Dark_Sonic> I think the list was pretty good but
[17:09] <Dark_Sonic> I also think that most of those guys don't really need a buff
[17:09] <TheCape> What do you think about giving Pit nair less BKB and a slighty higher angle
[17:09] <Dark_Sonic> I think KBG is the main problem with it <_<
[17:10] <Dark_Sonic> though it's BKB is a little high
[17:10] <TheCape> What about less KBG for nair and dair
[17:10] <TheCape> More KBG for uair
[17:10] <TheCape> And slightly lower base for nair
[17:10] <Dark_Sonic> Uair is fine actually
[17:10] <TheCape> We also need to fix locking of side B
[17:11] <Dark_Sonic> that's easy
[17:11] <Dark_Sonic> less BKB
[17:12] <TheCape> does it have base?
[17:12] <Dark_Sonic> I think so???
[17:13] <Dark_Sonic> what I'd like to see most for Pit though
[17:13] <TheCape> not sure'
[17:13] <Dark_Sonic> is a slightly higher ALR
[17:13] <TheCape> And more auto cancel opportunities?
[17:13] <Dark_Sonic> nah
[17:13] <Dark_Sonic> things like comboing out of falling uair
[17:13] <Dark_Sonic> or being able to follow up after a fair
[17:14] <Dark_Sonic> or the light hit of bair not being useless <_<
[17:14] <TheCape> Ah
[17:14] <TheCape> So faster ALR
[17:14] <Dark_Sonic> yeah
[17:14] <TheCape> Light hit bair is easy
[17:14] <TheCape> More base
[17:14] <TheCape> No growth
[17:14] <TheCape> Make it a setup move
[17:14] <TheCape> It either kills or sets up
[17:14] <TheCape> Ala Samus nair
[17:15] <TheCape> What about his tilts?
[17:15] <Dark_Sonic> uptilt is fine
[17:15] <TheCape> I would like to see less growth and a bit less winddown on U tilt
[17:15] <Dark_Sonic> d-tilt is gonna be fine
[17:15] <Dark_Sonic> but man f-tilt is crap
[17:15] <TheCape> What about making it faster?
[17:16] <Dark_Sonic> well then people would spam it <_M
[17:16] <TheCape> It could hit behind him with low base and low growth
[17:16] <TheCape> Setup for bair at kill percents :-p
[17:16] <Dark_Sonic> I'm thinking just going the simple route
[17:16] <Dark_Sonic> of more base and more growth
[17:17] <TheCape> Make it a mini F smash?
[17:17] <Dark_Sonic> yeah
[17:17] <TheCape> What about his jabs?
[17:17] <Dark_Sonic> his first jab needs more stun Q_Q
[17:17] <TheCape> What about higher base, lower growth
[17:17] <TheCape> and an 80 angle?
[17:17] <Dark_Sonic> that'll work
[17:17] <TheCape> B moves?
[17:17] <TheCape> Arrows are good
[17:18] <TheCape> Side B needs to not sheild lock
[17:18] <TheCape> I like the idea of a bigger hitbox on the upB
[17:18] <TheCape> So it pushes from further away
[17:18] <TheCape> or more base
[17:18] <TheCape> So it can be an edgeguard
[17:18] <Dark_Sonic> side B I want lower base (to get rid of shield lock) and higher angle (to make it combo?)
[17:18] <TheCape> Make F smash connect better?
[17:18] <TheCape> and U and D smashes?
[17:18] <TheCape> Basically worthless
[17:18] <Dark_Sonic> d-smash is actually pretty good
[17:18] <Dark_Sonic> the back hit combos into bair
[17:18] <TheCape> I was thinking we could give him a TL D smash
[17:19] <TheCape> Lower the damage a bit
[17:19] <Dark_Sonic> no
[17:19] <TheCape> and make front hit link into back hit
[17:19] <Dark_Sonic> I really think Pit's d-smash is fine as it is
[17:19] <TheCape> kk
[17:19] <TheCape> What about U smash?
[17:19] <Dark_Sonic> I'd like to see it have less endlag personally
[17:19] <Dark_Sonic> I'd even trade some startup lag
[17:20] <Dark_Sonic> it's got such a nice trajectory at low percents, but I'm stuck there just looking at them Q_Q
[17:20] <Dark_Sonic> And at high percents it would combo into arrows :o
[17:20] <TheCape> Yea
[17:20] <TheCape> Cool idea
[17:20] <TheCape> I like that
[17:20] <TheCape> Anything else overall for pit?
[17:20] <TheCape> I think second upB is a big one
[17:21] <Dark_Sonic> I think his fast fall is actually a little too fast
[17:21] <TheCape> Want to complile this stuff we talked about and post it in response to what I had?

 

[The Cape]

Ok, after seeing this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNRbDqPKw2Y

We definitely need to fix these spikes (Link and Pit)

DS posted it above, but this is prob the best solution.

Make the meteor hitbox a bit bigger and then move it out from the body a bit. Remove the second hitbox all together. So you have a move thats a bit tricky to space, but it should be a good meteor. We can work on it, but it seems to me that its basically a neccessity.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Ok, after seeing this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNRbDqPKw2Y

We definitely need to fix these spikes (Link and Pit)

DS posted it above, but this is prob the best solution.

Make the meteor hitbox a bit bigger and then move it out from the body a bit. Remove the second hitbox all together. So you have a move thats a bit tricky to space, but it should be a good meteor. We can work on it, but it seems to me that its basically a neccessity.

That video is just people not sweetspotting the ledge and jumping into it. Plus a lot of throws weren't even DI'ed. Jump and airdodge, or sweetspot the giant suction that the ledges have and its not a problem.

Your suggestion is good, but I think it being a spike would be fine so long as its tested with suction ledges. If its range really WAS good enough to reach below the huge ledge grab range then I'd just make the hitbox smaller.

Whatever people decide though, theres really no problem with just reverting it to the original move either.

 

[kupo15]

I think the best solution for the meteor would be this:

Increase the original spike box so it is 1/3, 1/2 or 2/3 the blade, shrink the non spike so its the other half blade so that the tip of the range isn't a spike because that move's range is as big as snakes ftilt.

Angle the kb so it pulls in which aids wall teching

Decrease the kb power.

I have the info for a weakened, pull in dtilt in my fun set if you want to pull from that. There is a link for the hitbox at the bottom of the post

It would be cool if you took my dsmash adjustment also. Basically, a slightly lower angle so its not another, weaker fsmash. It would make dtilt spike box to dsmash a great combo if you screw up your DI.

 

[CT Chia]

so i dont rly kno whats going on with pit per say, but are you guys making his dtilt always spike or meteor? instead of weak attack or meteor in a small hitbox like it was in vBrawl?

edit: i just saw that combo video

regardless of ppl not sweetspotting or what, are you kidding me? giving pit a spike/meteor like that? where he can run up and do it quickly with dash cancelling, where he can be crouching far in on the stage safely, out of reach of practically any upB attack while recovering, and being able to throw out meteors as a tilt.

 

[The Cape]

Rebuilt Pit:

First Jab (15 base, 90 angle):
1703280A 02050024
03280F02 005A0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

D tilt:
hb1: (.9 size, 40 growth from 50)
170B3250 02050029
0B285002 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F666666

hb2: (1.2x size)
170B3250 02118029
0B325002 01180000
FFFFFFFF 3F999999

Up B (1.5x size, 50 base, no growth from no base and 100 growth):
17006400 00169114
00003200 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3FC00000

Bair weak hit (50 base from 80 growth, 10 angle from special 20):
1707500F 02169033
07320F02 000A0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Nair:
hb1-4 (35 base from 0, 0 growth from 100)
17016400 02041033
01002302 00410000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

17016400 0207D033
01002302 007D0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

17016400 02019033
01002302 00190000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

17016400 020A0033
01002302 000A0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

hB5: (50 base from 60, 60 growth from 100, 40 angle from special 20)
1704643C 02169033
043C3202 00280000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Dair (40 growth from 50):
170C5032 02050033
0C502802 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Dash Attack (60 growth from 100 all hits):
17096414 02050026
093C1402 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

170C6414 02050026
0C3C1402 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

170B6414 02046026
0B3C1402 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

170B6414 0203C026
0B3C1402 003C0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000


40% ALR:
17000018 40200000

All Aerials After frame 28 = 2x speed
171C0033 40000000

F tilt 1.4x speed:
17000027 3FB33333

Dash Attack 1.5x speed winddown after frame 
170A0026 3FC00000

 

[shanus]

What is your opinion on how Pit plays? Where do you think he realistically stands compared to the other characters? What changes do you think he needs, if any?

Pit is a pretty well balanced character in general, the dtilt was fixed (i havent tested it yet though) and that was making him OP. His recovery is the only thing that needs to be changed now. With the ledges being not autosnap, that makes it so pit cant really grab the ledge coming up from under the stage.

The counter arguement is that pit has multiple jumps and a glide, so why does he even need to use his up b? The problem with this is that the gravity increase makes the jumps not go up as high (they will go a total length of about marths up b when added together). It also affects pits up b because it rises slower with the added gravity. All this added together makes it so pit gets in a tough spot when he is below the stage, really tough. This is normal except for the part that any move that connects with pits up b makes it so that pit gets gimped automatically.

This all adds up to one problem. Pit's recovery gets gimped really easily. If he messes up a ledge guard, he will get gimped as a punishment when trying to recover. That's the only problem I see with this character so far. How to fix this problem is completely up to the leaders of the B+ project. My suggestions are to allow pit to up b again after he is hit (but keep the degradation timer). Allow pit to airdoge out of the up b (This may or may not fix the problem, but will add something none the less). Increase pits manuverability in the up b so he has a chance (Keep in mind this will also advance pits offensive options with the AT "wing renewal". Thank you for your consideration

We have the old code, we just need to fix whats wrong with it.

 

[The Cape]

I have Sagemoon looking over the changes that I made on Pit as well and see what he thinks.

I also agree with the multi use UpB code being added in there, but I will see if he likes anything that I did with Pit's moves.

 

[shanus]

The mutliuse upB code made Pit feel laggy or something. Not sure exactly whats wrong with it, but itll need fixing to use it

 

[The Cape]

I would like to bring this back to consideration:

D tilt:
hb1: (40 growth from 50)
170B3250 02050029
0B285002 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

And also increasing the base on the wind hitbox that comes out on the release of sideB just a bit more, making the move a bit safer on hit.

Those are my thoughts and Pit is solid.


Multiuse upB is not needed as Pit can go into freefall as is. If he can keep his jumps after upB (if he never used them) that would be a perferable method.