Pillaring - What it is and how to do it...

[peachori]

omg frame data <3 scotu you are freaking awesome dude

 

[Druggedfox]

So scotu...am i right in saying that if i am getting grabbed when pillaring it is not necessarily my fault? Pillaring is easy yes, but according to this then it is physically impossible to pillar in a way that it is impossible to get shield grabbed. I guess pillaring is "easy" but according to this frame data, some one who has learned the timing for it, and not necessarily the frames, can shield grab a falco no matter how "well" they pillar unless they are multishining in between? I agree that this should be stickied, because when i pillar, i get grabbed a lot, and i always get confused because im sure that i am pillaring just as fast as any video i have ever seen, if not faster. Now i know that unless i am multishining, then technically i can get shield grabbed everytime right? Nice post mathos, and thanks for the frame data scotu.

 

[Zankoku]

You're probably doing early pillars. The ideal pillar cannot be shieldgrabbed because by the time the opponent is out of shieldstun and grabbing you're already in the air.

 

[Giggidax]

nice frame data scotu

yea pillaring is very unsafe thats why if im pillaring a shield ill only do it one or twice and then do pillar > multishine> jc grab our of shine... usually

 

[Shmooguy]

Yep pillaring is easy thats why Drephen's shieldgrabs all falcos all over the world.

drephen is pretty insane i gotta say

 

[SCOTU]

So scotu...am i right in saying that if i am getting grabbed when pillaring it is not necessarily my fault? Pillaring is easy yes, but according to this then it is physically impossible to pillar in a way that it is impossible to get shield grabbed. I guess pillaring is "easy" but according to this frame data, some one who has learned the timing for it, and not necessarily the frames, can shield grab a falco no matter how "well" they pillar unless they are multishining in between? I agree that this should be stickied, because when i pillar, i get grabbed a lot, and i always get confused because im sure that i am pillaring just as fast as any video i have ever seen, if not faster. Now i know that unless i am multishining, then technically i can get shield grabbed everytime right? Nice post mathos, and thanks for the frame data scotu.

Well, It's your fault for not mixing it up between Early and Ideal Pillars. Multishining isn't going to prevent you from being shieldgrabed while pillaring (if your, say, Dair>shine>shine>repeat), it'll probably just throw off their timing.

You're probably doing early pillars. The ideal pillar cannot be shieldgrabbed because by the time the opponent is out of shieldstun and grabbing you're already in the air.

You'll be grabbed out of the air.


OK. A thing I noticed is that people have been saying to dair on the way down and hit towards the bottom of the shield. So i supplied the frame data for that type of pillar (late pillar) and it doesn't appear to be any more beneficial (in fact less beneficial) than an ideal pillar.

Really, the best a falco can do (besides continuously multishining) is mix it up between ideal pillars and early pillars.

 

[MattDotZeb]

Yep pillaring is easy thats why Drephen's shieldgrabs all falcos all over the world.

Need I post the song again?

 

[Oskurito]

You shouldn't be grabbed if you DI the dair after the first pillar(at least in the others after the first) and hit them on their back part of their shields, I say you wont be grabbed unless is somekind of freaking grab range like Marth's

 

[Druggedfox]

Well the thing is, the person i am talking about uses marth against falco players...And scotu, even when i switch it up he grabs me. He is really good with spacing and timing. He uses falco as well, and plas against 2 falco players that pillar well. I am saying that assuming he predicts which style you start pillaring with, is it possible for him to shield grab you on your first shine to dair. I am not saying about how people pillaring personally, and how they switch it up. I meant according to the frame data then it is possible to grab u out of your pillar right? So i will start switching it up more, though right now i switch between delayed, multishine, and immediate dair out of shine, which i thought is what u were supposed to do, but w/e. If theres anything else i can switch to i would like to know, because at this point i do every kind of pillaring ive seen including waveshining btw, so according to the data u provided im assuming that it is POSSIBLE to grab out of pillaring, but you only have a few frames to do so. And if they switch it up its harder, but still possible.

 

[SCOTU]

any place there are 7 red frames in a row, you are shield grab-able. Meaning if you do a frame perfect Dair after your shine (not too hard to do), he can't grab you between the shine and the Dair. However, he could easily grab you after the dair, but before the next shine though. That's where the mix up comes in. If you think He's going to grab after the shine, do an early pillar. if you think he's going to grab after the dair, do an ideal pillar.

Ppl are saying you need to dair on the way down, but that isn't true. You need to start the dair before you can fast fall (it hits on the same frame you fast fall). Just wanted to clear that up. Although doing it later would prevent really fast jc usmashes (like Zelda's).

 

[Druggedfox]

Kewl, and great job with the frame data =).

 

[Oskurito]

correct me if I'm wrong: A shine out of the shield should always be able to counter falco's pillar (if Fox or Falco does it)

 

[SCOTU]

If done imediately after the shine. yes. There are other places it'll be guaranteed to work. Any place there is 6 red frames, falco can, any time there are 4 frames, fox can.

 

[Oskurito]

If done imediately after the shine. yes. There are other places it'll be guaranteed to work. Any place there is 6 red frames, falco can, any time there are 4 frames, fox can.

Thanks for pointing that out for me ^^

 

[Druggedfox]

So any1 who thought pillaring was foolproof...think AGAIN~~~ XD

 

[SCOTU]

So any1 who thought pillaring was foolproof...think AGAIN~~~ XD

True Story.

 

[Salaad]

I can't Short Hop out of the shine! It takes me way to long to move my fingers to the X/Y buttons..

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

just practice, salaad. i use Y to jump, and cstick to do the dair if that helps.

So basically, pillaring is not as it is made out to be (meaning impossible to get grabbed) but still an effective way to pressure shields and should still be used? mirite?

 

[SCOTU]

Oh, definately use it. You're unlikely to get punished for it, and it can get less knowlegeable people to do stupid things. I just recently had my shield broken by a pillar because i wasn't thinking. (of course, all he did was dash attack>dash attack>fsmash, which was the weirdest broken shield punish ever).

 

[Repryx]

HA HA no Jk Yeah Its amazing how it seems people just put up and hold their sheild more when I use Falco and never try to grab......Mufufufufufufu

 

[Zankoku]

Trust me, when getting hit by a true pillar, the last thing you want to do is try to shieldgrab.

 

[SCOTU]

Unless you know exactly what you're doing. Most people just roll away, and if you expect that, you'll probably capitalize.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

very prompt responses. thanks for the information scotu and ankoku. i'm enjoying all your imformative threads (the fox one was amazing)

Another quick question. in a falco ditto, at what point should one spot dodge into a shine when their shield is being pressured? I don't need the whole shiledstun/no stun list, just an idea of when to do it so i know hot to counter and combo back LOL

 

[Zankoku]

I think it's after a dair, and before the Shine that follows. That seems to have a 15 frame window, more than enough time to dodge out of anything.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

so do i spotdodge and shine BEFORE their shine comes out, or am i supposed to spotdodge their shine and then shine after it?

 

[SCOTU]

spotdodge after the dair, the dodge will make you not get hit by their shine, and then you shine. Btw, if you like this kinda stuff, or have more questions of the sort, i made an underused thread (see sig) about frame data. Feel free to ask all sorts of **** there and i'll answer asap.

 

[KYLEMARTHFALCODANIELSON]

Pillaring Help

There have been a lot of new Falcos flooding these boards over the past few weeks. I don't claim to be one of the better ones, but I do know what's what when it comes to technical Smash and how to play Falco.

The purpose of this post is two-fold.

First, I'd like to clear up the common misconception surrounding the term "Pillaring".

Secondly, I'd like to offer a few basic pointers on how I think one should work towards mastering this valuable technique.

I troll the Falco boards daily, and every day I can count on seeing the term "Pillaring" misused at least once. People seem to think that Pillaring is a combo involving chained shines and d-airs... This is not the case.

Pillaring is a technique for pressuring an opponent's shield. One of the keys to playing a strong Falco is maintaining a fast pace and steady momentum. When an opponent turtles up, (hides behind his/her shield) Pillaring is the tool a good Falco falls back on. While it DOES involve shines and d-airs, it does not involve juggling your opponent with those shines and d-airs. If the applied pressure results in a juggle, then great. You've pillared into a combo. But the combo its self is not Pillaring.

So what exactly is Pillaring? Pillaring is using a d-air against an opponents shield, l-cancelling, shining, jump cancelling the shine and initiating another short hopped d-air. Rinse and repeat.

If done correctly, your opponent will be so pressured that should he/she try to attack, one of your d-airs/shines will connect, initiating a combo. Should your opponent choose to continue shielding, his/her shield will be broken, resulting in a free attack of your choice.

Light shielding and rolling are the only truly viable means of escape, but since Pillaring is so difficult, waiting for the Falco player to screw up is usually also an acceptable strategy.

A few things to remember when Pillaring...

Your d-air has to hit below the mid-point of your opponents shield. If you input the d-air too early, there will be enough lag between the hit frame and Falco's next attack to sneak in a grab.

Your shine needs to be JC'd as early as possible. Again, being slow here can get you grabbed, or give your opponent enough time to jab you out of your next d-air.

And for you double-shine gurus, Pillaring is an excellent place to apply Falco's flashiest of tricks. If you're a fan of Shiz's videos, you've probably seen him double shine inbetween some of his Pillars.

Ok... I hope that clears this up a little bit. From now on, when I see the term "Pillaring" misused, I'm just going to refer people to this thread. Any additional input, or corrections to my logic will be much appreciated.

WHAT IS THE EASIEST WAY TO LEARN HOW TO PILLAR IF YOU DON'T HAVE SOMEONE TO PRACTICE ON.(ONLY CHILD NOONE TO PLAY EXCEPT ON WEEKENDS) IS THERE AN EASY WAY TO PRACTICE IN TRAINING MODE OR AGAINST A CERTAIN LEVEL COMPUTER? AND ARE THERE ANY GOOD EXAMPLES OF PILLARING VIDEOS THAT SOMEONE COULD UPLOAD TO GOOGLE VIDEO BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO YOUTUBE? THANKS

 

[SCOTU]

Plug a controller into an empty slot. Put it as bowser. Set the handicap on it to 9, yours at 1. Set the damage ratio to 0.5. Now start the game. Tilt the bowser's Control stick up, and hold it's X&Y&start buttons down for ~3 sec (the game should be paused- hold it until the control stick image in the lower left centers itself). All this does is make the bowser more resistant to knockback, so you can now practice pillaring (and any other techniques you might use against a shield, such as shinegrabbing). When I get home, if i'm in a good mood, i'll bust out my AR and record what the 3 types of perfect pillaring look like.

 

[Adi]

OOooh, that would be greatly appreciated Scotu, I always wondered how mine compare to frame perfect.

 

[KYLEMARTHFALCODANIELSON]

Plz Do It

Plug a controller into an empty slot. Put it as bowser. Set the handicap on it to 9, yours at 1. Set the damage ratio to 0.5. Now start the game. Tilt the bowser's Control stick up, and hold it's X&Y&start buttons down for ~3 sec (the game should be paused- hold it until the control stick image in the lower left centers itself). All this does is make the bowser more resistant to knockback, so you can now practice pillaring (and any other techniques you might use against a shield, such as shinegrabbing). When I get home, if i'm in a good mood, i'll bust out my AR and record what the 3 types of perfect pillaring look like.

YEAH IF YOU COULD THAT WOULD BE A HUGE HELP!!!!

 

[daddy neptune]

Nice Scotu!

 

[Druggedfox]

Wow, scotu is like a savior of frames. And i learned how to pillar by killing computers in versus mode, then during the invincibility frames, pillaring them. Scotus way works better, but thats just how i learned.

 

[lexxil]

lol nuuups.

You have to learn the pillar with sheil hitlag.
Just use the starman for this. Htting somebodey invincible is just like having a sheild hitlag.

 

[Druggedfox]

Hey scotu, for fox i would expect that you can pillar against there shield kinda like falco. Two questions: 1) I know this might be time consuming, but could you please check frame data for fox and see if it would be to easy for him to shield grab you, or if its like falco and they only have one chance to do so and its very small (like the 13 frame time they have to do it against falco) and 2) Would you recommend practicing pillaring with fox the same way as with falco aka against bowser lvl 9 handicap damage ratio 0.5 etc. ? Thanks in advance. Im mostly asking this because against the bowser thing that u said with fox and falco i can do it with ease, but once again my friends shield grab me. I know with falco they can grab u anyway so im not worried, but what about fox?!?!? Thanks again.

 

[Oskurito]

lol nuuups.

You have to learn the pillar with sheil hitlag.
Just use the starman for this. Htting somebodey invincible is just like having a sheild hitlag.

Is not the same.

I'll share w i th you what I do to practice pillaring( it's redicolous ...):
I input another controller and put it between my legs (no not in that part exactly, just between my legs) and close them to hold the L button then I practice pillaring as usual.

Btw can you make the frame data for double shine pillaring scotu? and if you have time to record a video of double pillaring I'll apreciate it 2

 

[SCOTU]

wow, a lot of activity i overlooked.

First:

OK. Just made it. Please forgive my rotoscoping. It's the first time i've done this kind of video capture, and i'm no SDM.

This clip goes by twice. Once in Frame time, and once in Real Time (since Digital video only has 30 fps, and the signal is 60 fps to account for interlacing).

In each clip, the first iteration is the "Ideal Pillar" which is the usual pillar, and cannot be shield grabbed before the shine (and after the Dair). The second Iteration is the "Early Pillar" which is a variety having the Dair come out asap in order to prevent shield grabbing before the dair.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4461023502456785346&hl=en

2nd: @ Drugged fox: I did that stuff for fox WAY first. Check in the fox boards under Shield pressure reasearch projects, or click the link in my sig to Frame Q&A, and it links you there in the first post.

3rd: @ Oskurito: I already have the data for the pillars, and the multishines, so with those, it's extremely easy to infer each step of a multishine pillar, or any combination of pillar tools, so that's not really necessary.

4th: Thanks for all the compliments. I really appreciate that kind of stuff.

 

[lexxil]

scotu lol. you know everything.

So that means if they grab me often after the Shine, i just should try to Dair as fast as possible after the Shine and if they like to grab me after the dair i just should start the dair later ? (And the typical pillar is just some of both lol?)

I just need the info. I pillar with the stick (waveshine too) and its frameperfect (the Shinecancels) so is just want to get sure im doing it RIGHT lol.

 

[Oskurito]

Uh yeah I think I can figure it out with the data you already posted thanks anyway

 

[SCOTU]

scotu lol. you know everything.

So that means if they grab me often after the Shine, i just should try to Dair as fast as possible after the Shine and if they like to grab me after the dair i just should start the dair later ? (And the typical pillar is just some of both lol?)

I just need the info. I pillar with the stick (waveshine too) and its frameperfect (the Shinecancels) so is just want to get sure im doing it RIGHT lol.

Well, there's no real advantage at all to doing the late pillar. I just posted this cause people are like: "do the dair on the way down so it hits towards the bottom of their shield". Which doesn't help anything. If they grab after the shine, use the early pillar (i reccomend using z for the dair, but whatever works for you), if they grab after the dair, use the ideal pillar.

 

[Anklez15]

thanks man great job now i can finally master pillaring