Pikachu = ....C Tier?

[KayLo!]

Below you’ll find the second official SBR-B Brawl tier list. The previous tier list can be found here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192028

A tier list is an ordered list of the characters based on their competitive value in the current metagame. It basically shows which characters are currently doing well in tournaments. Note that player skill is more important than character choice and match ups can overcome tier differences, but at an equal player level a bottom tier character will usually have a very tough time against a top tier character. This list will probably change over time, as Brawl is still relatively young and the Melee tiers were debated until the very end. So don’t give up on your character just yet, maybe you’re the one to make a difference!

The list was created by the SBR-B after much heated discussion. For the votes, we had members place the characters in groups from 1 to 15 (15 being the highest) and took the average score for each character. The split was decided by looking at the gaps. As the person supervising it, I’d like to thank all SBR-B members who contributed.

SS Tier
Meta Knight 15.00

S Tier
Snake 13.91

A Tier
Falco 13.03
King Dedede 12.94
Mr. Game & Watch 12.50
Marth 12.09
Diddy Kong 11.94

B Tier
Wario 11.47
R.O.B. 11.38
Lucario 10.94
Olimar 10.94

C Tier
Pikachu 10.34
Kirby 10.16
Donkey Kong 10.06
Ice Climbers 9.59

D Tier
Zero Suit Samus 8.88
Toon Link 8.47
Pit 8.44
Peach 8.16
Wolf 7.91

E Tier
Luigi 7.41
Zelda 7.03
Bowser 6.91
Fox 6.66
Sheik 6.44
Ike 5.91

F Tier
Mario 4.56
Lucas 4.50
Ness 4.50
Samus 4.41
Sonic 4.16
Pokémon Trainer 3.94
Yoshi 3.66

G Tier
Link 2.28
Jigglypuff 2.03
Ganondorf 1.88
Captain Falcon 1.63

Expect the next tier list on June 5th.

You all knew this thread was coming, lol.

How do we feel? Personally, I'm surprised Pika wasn't a bit lower, so I'm pretty happy. (The new format's a little wonky, though.) As far as the yellow rat goes, I 100% agree.

Let's discuss.

 

[Zylar]

LOL Pikachu defended his ground. He neither increased or decreased.
Don't know if that is a good thing.
But like three characters did HUGE jumps.


I dunno what to say about this one. (Edit : Many tiers had serious changes.)
I hardly care except for pikachu's placement of course.

Here is the character's tier placement changes, for quick easier reference. Hopefully people will get the general idea.

Key : Name - (Placement Change ----- previous placement > current placement.)


SS Tier
Meta Knight -------- ( No change ----- 1 > 1)

S Tier
Snake --------------- ( No change ----- 2 > 2)

A Tier
Falco ---------------- ( +2 ----- 5 > 3)
King Dedede -------- ( -1 ----- 3 > 4)
Mr. Game & Watch - ( -1 ----- 4 > 5)
Marth --------------- ( +1 ----- 7 > 6)
Diddy Kong --------- ( +4 ----- 11 > 7)

B Tier
Wario --------------- ( No change ----- 8 > 8)
R.O.B. --------------- ( -3 ----- 6 > 9)
Lucario ------------- ( -1 ----- 9 > 10)
Olimar -------------- ( +7 -----18 > 11)

C Tier
Pikachu ------------ (No change ----- 12 > 12)
Kirby --------------- ( +1 ----- 14 > 13)
Donkey Kong ------ ( -4 ----- 10 > 14)
Ice Climbers ------- ( -2 ----- 13 > 15)

D Tier
Zero Suit Samus -- ( +5 -----21 > 16)
Toon Link --------- ( No change ----- 17 > 17)
Pit ----------------- ( -3 ----- 15 > 18)
Peach ------------- ( +5 ----- 24 > 19)
Wolf --------------- ( -4 ----- 16 > 20)

E Tier
Luigi -------------- ( +2 ----- 23 > 21)
Zelda -------------- ( -2 ----- 20 > 22)
Bowser ------------ ( -1 ----- 22 > 23)
Fox ---------------- ( -5 ----- 19 > 24)
Sheik -------------- ( +1 -----26 > 25)
Ike ---------------- ( -1 ------25 > 26)

F Tier
Mario -------------- ( +2 ----- 29 > 27)
Lucas -------------- ( Ness and Lucas have equal points, -1 / -2 ----- 28 / 29)
Ness --------------- ( Ness and Lucas have equal points, -1 / -2----- 28 / 29)
Samus ------------- ( +1 ----- 31 > 30)
Sonic -------------- ( +2 ----- 33 > 31)
Pokémon Trainer - ( -2 ----- 30 > 32)
Yoshi --------------- ( -1 ----- 32 > 33)

G Tier
Link ---------------- ( +2 ----- 36 > 34)
Jigglypuff --------- ( -1 ----- 34 > 35)
Ganondorf -------- ( -1 ----- 35 > 36)
Captain Falcon --- ( No change ----- 36 > 36)

 

[Stealth Raptor]

yeah pika actually didnt move. only the tiers got rearranged around him. and i agree he should be lower.

 

[Fino]

olimar moved more than any other character... go figure, he jsut has to be the best at everything (being the best character in brawl and all


~Fino

 

[KayLo!]

olimar moved more than any other character... go figure, he jsut has to be the best at everything (being the best character in brawl and all


~Fino

Lies!

Although I agree with him being higher than Pika. Let's make a cuteness tier list and see how high Olimar is then, Fino.

*Hmph*

 

[LinkNavi]

uh

i disagree pikachu is fine where he/she/it is,.... i just have a problem with kong but thats another story, also the AI for pikachu level 9 is pretty good , unlike the other horrible programings like MK, just try fighting him 1v1 and lemme no

 

[Fino]

Lies!

Although I agree with him being higher than Pika. Let's make a cuteness tier list and see how high Olimar is then, Fino.

*Hmph*

Since when was cuteness a factor in a fighting game O_o?
Besides... olimar's pike boots are incredibly cute ^^;


~Fino

 

[Zylar]

Welcome to Smashboards.
AI? Oh, computers.
I believe pikachu only has the best "problem solving" skills for a CPU. (Whatever that means.) I watched some researcher's youtube vids.

 

[KayLo!]

i disagree pikachu is fine where he/she/it is,.... i just have a problem with kong but thats another story, also the AI for pikachu level 9 is pretty good , unlike the other horrible programings like MK, just try fighting him 1v1 and lemme no

Level 9 Pikachu does QAC. Granted, it only does it back and forth, but still. It's pretty beast.... for a CPU.

I think there are a few characters that could be above Pikachu, but since he's my main, of course I'm happy that he's where he is. He's the captain of his own little subtier.

Since when was cuteness a factor in a fighting game O_o?
Besides... olimar's pike boots are incredibly cute ^^;


~Fino

People have a harder time KO'ing Pika because of his cuteness. Have you heard the noise he makes when he gets blasted off the screen? It hurts the soul.

Seriously, though, I was just kidding around.

& Olimar's boots are ugly.

 

[Zylar]

Because I kill my family and friends with Pika ...

...

... they hate pika, and actually ENJOY that sound. *sobs in corner*

My CPU pikachu hasn't learned how to QAC. I don't do it enough.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

mine uses qac to thunder. a guy in our area teamed up with a lvll 9 pika and won one battle. nuff said xD

 

[Ussi]

Well I never liked using super high tier characters. I'm quite happy with Pikachu's placement.

 

[M15t3R E]

Pikachu is STILL #12. Imagine that. I'm just happy he didn't lower.

But I am ticked that Lucario is #10 despite his less than impressive tournament rankings (Ankoku's thread), that Peach is still #19 (wtf), and Zero Suit Samus didn't do well (wtf again).

 

[stevensteve]

i expected him to be higher :/

but then again, i main him so i am biased in the matter

 

[Roller]

Personally, I wish Pika was lower on the tier list, and I think it is solely because of Anther's astounding tourney performances that he is.

The one problem I have with this tier list (other than the general format, which I find to be BS) is DK's downgrade. I mean.. WTF!?

 

[GreenAce]

I' m surprised pikachu stayed the same I thought he would be lower, Zamus made a good move

 

[GreenAce]

oops double post

 

[rinoH]

i like where pikachu is right now

 

[!Boom!]

Okay guys. We must all work together to make pika go down the tier list.

 

[GreenAce]

lets all t jolt and dash attack spam and maybe pikachu will go down

 

[M15t3R E]

Okay guys. We must all work together to make pika go down the tier list.

May I ask why?

 

[Kroova]

May I ask why?

So there won't be more migrations to the pika forums (I was lurking :3).

Anyways, Pika's position's pretty stable, so I'm fine with where it is.

 

[Roller]

May I ask why?

E, the idea is that most people are going to be preparing the most for the matchups they are most likely to see the most in tourneys. The tier list is a pretty good indication of what the metagame is like, many people who are doing well have been using the high tier characters (that's why they are high tier). So people will be preparing the most for the characters on the upper portion of the tierlist. So if pika is low on the tierlist people wont expect to be seeing many of them at tourneys, so we would be up against a field of opponents who are less knowledgeable about and less experienced in the pika matchup. Thereby helping give us pika players a little advantage.

 

[KayLo!]

Plus, we won't get tier wh*res spamming our boards as they rush to pick up a top tier character.

If Pika stays mid-high-tier... C-tier.... whatever, the people who pick him up are more likely to do so because of the character, not his position on the list.

 

[Zylar]

Well if that happens would pika move UP eventually? (Because of the less experience.)

Then pika goes back down? Cycle?

 

[Roller]

Well if that happens would pika move UP eventually? (Because of the less experience.)

Then pika goes back down? Cycle?

True Story.

This will happen with most characters as the metagame fluctuates. It is indeed somewhat of a cycle. The metagame continually adapts, then adapts to the adaptations and so on and so forth. It can already be seen in the upper tier, just look at Olimar, DK, Falco, etc.

 

[rinoH]

this is why http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBzCHwiSroU m2k wasnt even ready lulz

 

[M15t3R E]

Sorry guys, but I strongly disagree with the notion that Pikachu needs to be lower to ensure that people don't start preparing against tournament Pikachus.

I know for a fact that NO ONE in my region, with New York being the only exception, prepares against Pikachus for tournaments. They are almost unheard of in my region. Same for west coast. Same for the southern states. Really, the only region which is an exception would be the midwest because of Anther, and that's it.
Almost no one prepares against Pikachus, or expects to see them.
And now that Pikachu's tier list placing has not been moved in this new tier list (still #12), nothing will change. People will continue to not prepare for Pikachus in tournaments, and so you really have nothing to worry about.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I despise this mentality of making a character move down on a tier list, it's really stupid.

1) Smart people won't 'lolunderestimatepickachu' because of his tier position.
2) By trying to lower Pikachu, you're causing inaccuracy in the tier list and hindering progress.
3) The higher the tier, the more people will play the character and advance his metagame. Lowering it will have the opposite effect.

 

[M15t3R E]

I despise this mentality of making a character move down on a tier list, it's really stupid.

1) Smart people won't 'lolunderestimatepickachu' because of his tier position.
2) By trying to lower Pikachu, you're causing inaccuracy in the tier list and hindering progress.
3) The higher the tier, the more people will play the character and advance his metagame. Lowering it will have the opposite effect.

I'm with you 100%.

 

[Ussi]

I despise this mentality of making a character move down on a tier list, it's really stupid.

1) Smart people won't 'lolunderestimatepickachu' because of his tier position.
2) By trying to lower Pikachu, you're causing inaccuracy in the tier list and hindering progress.
3) The higher the tier, the more people will play the character and advance his metagame. Lowering it will have the opposite effect.

that means nothing when Anther is doing all the advancing.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

no i hontestly think he should be lower.

 

[Jinkwai]

As crazy as it sounds, I am actually happy the new tier list came out. My friend asked me a couple days ago how come I dropped Pika and I couldn't answer him. I just let him go. After looking at the new list and realizing his position, I feel that I should pick him up once more and do things right.

 

[KayLo!]

3) The higher the tier, the more people will play the character and advance his metagame. Lowering it will have the opposite effect.

After looking at the new list and realizing his position, I feel that I should pick him up once more and do things right.

I guess this proves your point, Speed, lol.

Seriously, though, let's be honest. The people who truly advance Pika's metagame are 90% of the time people who've been playing him for a while regardless of his position on the tier list (I won't name names, but let's think of the people who contribute most on this board). Someone who picks him up just because he's high tier is most likely not going to be interested in helping Pika's game as a whole or being a part of the Pika community -- they're just going to want to learn his tricks and win with him.

I never said I wanted Pika to be lower on the list, just that I was surprised he wasn't. Imho, there are characters that I expected to be above him, such as the ICs & DK to some extent. I think we're all more than happy that he kept his position. No one wants to be garbage tier, although I can understand the sentiments of people who wouldn't have been disappointed if Pika had dropped a little. Who really prepares for low-middle tier characters unless you have people around you that play them?

(Then again, Mr. E is right. No one really prepares for Pikachu anyway, even though he is high/C/whatever tier -- not to mention a hard matchup for some top tier characters. Strange.)

Moral of the story: tiers aren't the end all, be all, and this one is no exception. We have some very dedicated Pikachu players here, so even if the community remains small and doesn't get a rush of people riding the tier list's d**k, I don't think Pika's metagame will suffer. Let's just have fun playing him, yeah?

Also, welcome back to Pika, Jinkwai.

 

[Roxas215]

Pika didn't actually go up or down. Chars moved around him.

I'm way more surprised at zss jump. Makes me want to go back to playing her for real now!

And diddy jumped to however i wish he didn't. I hate playing high tier chars.

And can i get a hell yea for peach!!!!

But ok this is a pika board enough of me ranting about my personal chars! I think the reason he is so high is because of anther's tourney results. Anther is god! But honestly besides me and one other person i know no one plays pika. And from what i read alot of people don't really plan to fight against a pika so his position on the tier list really shouldn't effect anything. People go into tourneys scared of mk,snakes,falcos,g@w,etc. No one goes into a tourney and say(**** i hope i don't get matched up against a pika)

One thing i don't agree with is bowser being over fox. I mean wth? And i play bowser.

And oli's jump is crazy. I mean **** 7 spots?? 7?????????

 

[Jinkwai]

I guess this proves your point, Speed, lol.

Also, welcome back to Pika, Jinkwai.

Glad to be back. I think the reason I quit Pika in the first place is because I felt he was too good for me. I got away with a lot of newbish stuff in the beginning. Now that the overall meta (and my own personal style) has matured, I feel it's time to go back to me roots. Afterall, he was my main in Melee. I just hope I can catch up.

 

[Roller]

Ok, let me clarify something, first of all, I was meerly elaborating on what someone else said, that does not mean it is my view as well. However I do think Pika should be lower, because as was mentioned there really aren't many pika players... at all. The ONLY one putting up consistant results is Anther. One person should not dictate the entire friggin character in regards to the tier list.

Anther is a statistical anomaly in concern to Pika results in tourneys, if you take him out of the equation pika would be dropped to atleast 16th on the list.

Sorry, I just find the idea of one person who stays primarily in one region being the entire basis for a character's tier placement a little bizarre; even if that person is as godly as Anther.

And to whatever person claimed that trying to trick the tierlist is interfering with progress.. WTF? How so? What effect does a silly little subjective list made up by a few select individuals have on progress? Even if it WERE to effect progress, progress would still be made.. Your claim doesn't really hold any (figurative) water..

 

[KayLo!]

Ok, let me clarify something, first of all, I was meerly elaborating on what someone else said, that does not mean it is my view as well. However I do think Pika should be lower, because as was mentioned there really aren't many pika players... at all. The ONLY one putting up consistant results is Anther. One person should not dictate the entire friggin character in regards to the tier list.

Anther is a statistical anomaly in concern to Pika results in tourneys, if you take him out of the equation pika would be dropped to atleast 16th on the list.

I sort of agree with you and sort of disagree.

I somewhat disagree with you because I think Anther does show the potential of the character. He may be leagues ahead of the rest of us, but his skill level is on par with other high-level pros, and the point of the tier list is to rank characters with the assumption that the players are of equal skill level.

What keeps me from disagreeing with you entirely is that Anther doesn't do anything special with Pikachu, really. He kicks a** with Pika, but he doesn't do it with any tricks the rest of us haven't learned.... he's just an all-around more intelligent player who makes less mistakes (imho, feel free to disagree), which is character-independent. The fact that his performance was probably a large part of the SBR's evaluation of Pika (since he is, as you said, the only one placing consistently with him in large tournaments) may mean that he gave Pikachu an undeserved boost in the tier list.

However, we'll never know unless someone from the back room can honestly say how much his tournament placings affected the list. For all we know, it could have been a relatively small part in their consideration.

 

[Roller]

I sort of agree with you and sort of disagree.

I somewhat disagree with you because I think Anther does show the potential of the character.

Although I agree with you that Anther shows that pikachu has much more potential than most of us have taken advantage of, character potential isn't shown in the tier list, the list is a depiction of the CURRENT metagame, not what the metagame could someday be.

However, we'll never know unless someone from the back room can honestly say how much his tournament placings affected the list. For all we know, it could have been a relatively small part in their consideration.

A tier list is an ordered list of the characters based on their competitive value in the current metagame. It basically shows which characters are currently doing well in tournaments.

Good.Game.

 

[KayLo!]

Good.Game.

I hate you.

There will be a next time, I promise.

Going by your logic, though, Anther IS Pika as far as the tier list is concerned. If that places him where he is on the list (now that you've SO KINDLY corrected my understanding of what the tier list is ), then it is what it is.

Just think of where he'll be when/if the rest of us catch up....