pick yur poison | ovah

[Wots All This Then?]

I have to go do **** today out at a range so i dunno if i can get a solid post in for a few hours at least. Not sure if dietz will be on so hold off a bit so i can answer zen

 

[Yo! Hardbody the Show!]

Why is there no list in the OP?

itz in da 3rd post

day rolecop (0)
vengeful mafiate (1) - alakaslam
1 shot janitor (3) - zenny jexs rosalina
godfather (2) - wott joey

not voting gheb red ryu seal maven jaytheunseen ranmaru

 

[Alakaslam]

Dude I am Lone Ranger uphuulz

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm reading Zen's posts and the early game, I do not want to give mafia a janitor unless I an be convinced very well off a reread.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Jan & Roleblock. Jan is the weakest by far.

Convince me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't want to tell mafia how to be optimal, but there's only really one way that it could really be effective. Otherwise, it's pretty useless. Keep in mind they can only use it in the day and they would have to predict who was going to be the lynch before hand. Roleblock I'd prefer because it's limited. GF is permanent and has harsh effects on both Mason and Cop. Roleblock only has strong effect on Mason, and GF would probably be worse.

Prediction has nothing to do with it, it's just the raw denial of information to the worst effect.

Yes they can't predict it but I know from my Toonami mafia and my own Upick this will **** people up easily.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I agree no godfather though.

I want Vengeful or Rolecop as last, would prefer Vengeful.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

In the end, I want everyone to be 100% clear that the worst options we can give them either individually or in combination imo is 2x Roleblocker, which can stop any of our PRs at any time in a game where I expect claims to be pretty forthcoming since it's a semi-open setup. And Day Rolecop, which could check any of our PRs at any time (like... when we claim for example) and can inform a PR shot on N1 before we even know a flip, to which we have no real counterplay besides Doccing them with complete accuracy.

Yeah the more I delve on this, I strongly prefer Roleblocker/Vengeful.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Look.

Janitor is limited. 1x
Roleblock is limited. 2x
Vengeful is limited. 1x

Day Janitor is crap as Janitor's only real use is to allow scum to claim a PR that the rest of the game is oblivious to. Usually for this case, it is placed with a Role Cop combination. Firstly, I think we all agree that we aren't giving them Role Cop no matter what we choose. Secondly, Day Janitoring doesn't allow them the benefit of secretly taking on the role of a PR. Since a PR is going to claim before they are lynched, the cat is out of the bag, and if mafia tries to Jan, take on the role, and CC later, then we got obvscum. This could be used for mafia if they CC earlier, but that also is in our favor as it shrinks things down to 2. It's just over all a really useless role for mafia to have this game.

Roleblock will probably not be used D1 or until there is a claim. Mafia has to risk wasting their limited resource otherwise. Because of this we will have free range on at least one of N1-N3. And even if Mafia manages to hit a PR, we still have two others.

Venegeful is WORSE than ROLEBLOCK x 500. A kill completely eliminates a PR. A limited RB can only temporarily disable them, and we have a higher chance of getting information before or after so.

This is exactly why I want to avoid a janitor situation.

I refuse to let that WIFOM be a part of the game at large if someone plays that bad as a town PR. I do not want someone to jan it and then claim PR later and have us guess if the jan'd person was town or mafia.

Mafia or town would claim regardless, the only situation it works is if we lynch mafia and they kill the PR that claimed to make sure they were lynched. Yes it could shrink the pool down, but it leaves this giant WIFOM game in the end that we gotta debate and guess over having a confirmed flip.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Janitor's also entirely worthless and we should definitely give it to them. They can't hide their own flips. Everybody who is hammered claims immediately, if the flip is revealed we know s/he's town and therefore the claim is trustworthy. I honestly don't even know why the role is in the game to begin with.

Ok wtf happened here to what you said later that I quoted.

How the hell is Jan worthless, it's very useful no matter what PRs they give us.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I misread the role PM of the Janitor. I thought "can't cover up your alignmet" means that mafia can't use it on themselves. My bad. Gotta think that one through again.

Still in favor of giving Mafia a Godfather. Still 100% against Vengeful Mafiat.

nvm, this is better to me now.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

As of page 6 I am vemonitely against a Godfather or Janitor being the last role we give mafia.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Also slightly not a fan of my town read on Jaytheunseen given how more closely I have been reading his posts.

I should ISO that in comparison when I was in mate in a previous game but I'm slightly bothered by what he did post. It matches slightly what I saw him do as scum in my game with him.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I read up on full

@ Xivii I will not support a Janitor given what I have read up, I feel like that role will great far more problems than pros if we give it to them. Unless the lynch is painfully obvious I see it messing up reads and leaving town in the dark.

I know how Vengeful can **** us up, but I find dealing and reading around that far better for town than it is for dealing with what a janitor is.

I will give you til tomorrow to convince me if I will vote Vengeful or Janitor. I don't like godfather or rolecop with a roleblocker at this point.

 

[ranmaru]

Wouldn't the mafia want to take part in this voting?.

What makes you say that? What's your problem with FOS's, many others have already done so. What are your thoughts of Jaytheunseen? Gheb? Zen?

 

[Maven89]

What makes you say that?

Vote: Vengeful

 

[Maven89]

I just realized that gif made me look tongue tied when i meant it to show being flabbergasted

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Also slightly not a fan of my town read on Jaytheunseen given how more closely I have been reading his posts.

I should ISO that in comparison when I was in mate in a previous game but I'm slightly bothered by what he did post. It matches slightly what I saw him do as scum in my game with him.

I think it's stupid to base a read off previous games if you can help it but what do I know (though I DO know for a fact others feel the same)

 

[ranmaru]

I mean why does he think that is the case.

 

[JeXs]

Is it a general consensus that they gave us vig?

 

[Alakaslam]

What makes you say that?

This is how maven.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think it's stupid to base a read off previous games if you can help it but what do I know (though I DO know for a fact others feel the same)

I think it will definitely help me with you in terms of reading you, just not right now.

 

[Seal]

I mean why does he think that is the case.

Because the mafia would want to give themselves the best possible roles... My lack of reads/FOS/voting is in no way an indication of scum and I fail to see how you could possibly think that.

 

[ranmaru]

How about you answer my question. What is your opinion about JaytheUnseen, Gheb, and Zen? Why do you have a lack of reads?

 

[Xivii]

The more we go on about this day, the more we reveal to the mafia.

I read up on full

@ Xivii I will not support a Janitor given what I have read up, I feel like that role will great far more problems than pros if we give it to them. Unless the lynch is painfully obvious I see it messing up reads and leaving town in the dark.

I know how Vengeful can **** us up, but I find dealing and reading around that far better for town than it is for dealing with what a janitor is.

I will give you til tomorrow to convince me if I will vote Vengeful or Janitor. I don't like godfather or rolecop with a roleblocker at this point.

I have plans, Ruy...plans.

Sigh. Day Jan (1x at that) cannot do the damage that you guys are suggesting. I'm tired of telling the mafia how to play, but look: scum trying to claim a PR this game will **** them. We can use CCs to our advantage. The only CC that mafia can claim is cop, which I highly doubt there is. There is not going to be any PR WIFOM. Any CC scenario will force scum into proving their role and/or face-off against the real PR. In most of the cases, we do not LYNCH between the CCs. We have them take care of themselves during the night .

Vig CCs: Each Vig aims at each other. Mafia will have to either die along with Vig; no kill + RB (which just puts in the same position with them wasting their RB); or RB + Kill the Vig, leaving them outted for the next day baby.

WDoc CCs: Each Doc targets each other. The real doc will die no matter what, leaving scum outted. Aside from the first, they have the same options as above.

Mason CCs: Dat proof. Mafia could actually CC this by having their scumbud claim to be their recruit, but lmao that would be amazing. All we would have to do then, is lynch one out of the pairs. If we lynch town, then two of the scum are outted. If we lynch scum, then we have the other scum and our Mason is conserved.

Doc CCs: If this is the case we could either (A) lynch one and have Vig off the other, (B) leave them both alive and choose one for Vig or (Weak Doc if there was one), to target. In the mean time we lynch another scum bag.

Cop CCs: Same as above.

So long as Town always tells the truth about their claims when they are going to be lynched (i.e VTs do not lie about being a PR) we will not have to worry about CCs or JANITOR. If scum Jans a VT lynch we know it was either a VT or scum and we will never have to worry about it for the rest of the game. This is especially true, if they use it D1 as many are suggesting. And if they wait to use it past day 1, the more chance we have at lynching Jan and the more information we will have gained--Making Jan weaker and weaker in its ability to obscere information from us.


@ #HBC | Red Ryu @ Seal @ Maven89 @ JayTheUnseen @Ranmaru @ Alakaslam

Enough of this, enough. We've already given scum enough about how to play the game. Read this post, absorb it. Vote Jan, and let's end this.

 

[Maven89]

I'll do what you asked Zenny and think on your post. I'll have an answer tomorrow morning.

 

[Alakaslam]

I'm not even gonna bother.

Well I might.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I lovehow zen didbt even bother telling me to vote for jan lol

 

[Seal]

How about you answer my question. What is your opinion about JaytheUnseen, Gheb, and Zen? Why do you have a lack of reads?

I have a lack of reads because I'm a defensive player who doesn't share thoughts as willingly as everyone else seems to.

Now I have some questions for YOU:

Why do I have to tell you what I think? Why does it make me scummy to not do so? Why did you ignore the point I made about mafia wanting to be active during this phase?

 

[Seal]

The more we go on about this day, the more we reveal to the mafia.



I have plans, Ruy...plans.

Sigh. Day Jan (1x at that) cannot do the damage that you guys are suggesting. I'm tired of telling the mafia how to play, but look: scum trying to claim a PR this game will **** them. We can use CCs to our advantage. The only CC that mafia can claim is cop, which I highly doubt there is. There is not going to be any PR WIFOM. Any CC scenario will force scum into proving their role and/or face-off against the real PR. In most of the cases, we do not LYNCH between the CCs. We have them take care of themselves during the night .

Vig CCs: Each Vig aims at each other. Mafia will have to either die along with Vig; no kill + RB (which just puts in the same position with them wasting their RB); or RB + Kill the Vig, leaving them outted for the next day baby.

WDoc CCs: Each Doc targets each other. The real doc will die no matter what, leaving scum outted. Aside from the first, they have the same options as above.

Mason CCs: Dat proof. Mafia could actually CC this by having their scumbud claim to be their recruit, but lmao that would be amazing. All we would have to do then, is lynch one out of the pairs. If we lynch town, then two of the scum are outted. If we lynch scum, then we have the other scum and our Mason is conserved.

Doc CCs: If this is the case we could either (A) lynch one and have Vig off the other, (B) leave them both alive and choose one for Vig or (Weak Doc if there was one), to target. In the mean time we lynch another scum bag.

Cop CCs: Same as above.

So long as Town always tells the truth about their claims when they are going to be lynched (i.e VTs do not lie about being a PR) we will not have to worry about CCs or JANITOR. If scum Jans a VT lynch we know it was either a VT or scum and we will never have to worry about it for the rest of the game. This is especially true, if they use it D1 as many are suggesting. And if they wait to use it past day 1, the more chance we have at lynching Jan and the more information we will have gained--Making Jan weaker and weaker in its ability to obscere information from us.


@ #HBC | Red Ryu @ Seal @ Maven89 @ JayTheUnseen @Ranmaru @ Alakaslam

Enough of this, enough. We've already given scum enough about how to play the game. Read this post, absorb it. Vote Jan, and let's end this.

Seems like good logic to me. If you're right and the town cooperates with your CC method, we can take any non-doc CC out quite easily. The flip may not be our best source of info. However, what if the town is reluctant to claim? What if the mafia don't CC? Where are we left then? Also, giving the mafia a role blocker was a really bad idea if we're all going to be claiming. Should have gone role cop and janitor so there'd be no point investigating since everyone claimed.

Vote: janitor

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'll sleep on it.

 

[Alakaslam]

I'll sleep on it.

Pffffffft!!!

 

[Xivii]

I lovehow zen didbt even bother telling me to vote for jan lol

@ Wots All This Then? @ Dooms @ ranmaru

 

[Dooms]

I'll also think about it.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Ill talk to dirtz about it

 

[Maven89]

I've given it some thought and don't need till tomorrow

Vote: Janitor

 

[RosalinaSGS]

Woah, that's an incredible number of posts. I'm going to reply to any I believe have additional notes which are worthy of mention, and as such, there will be quite a few.

First off, I've become confused over the power of vengeful. Previously, I'd advocated for that vote, yet everyone stated an additional night kill was extremely detrimental to our success. What's changed? If we have only decided on that to avoid choosing between janitor and godfather, then we need to slow down. This is a major decision, and we should choose the best option, not the easiest. If a consensus cannot be reached, then maybe we could decide on vengeful to get the ball rolling, but that should really only be a last resort.

I'd still rather give them a role cop or a vengeful over Jan but I'll read back.

I'm reasonably confident role cop is significantly worse than jan or vengeful, given that it allows the mafia two tried each night to find/ kill a PR. They are likely to locate/ kill one PR on the very first night. That bodes very badly for us. So the real question should be: Vengeful or Jan?

My vote is 2x Roleblocker then either Godfather or Vengeful. I'm not going to agree with Janitor or Role cop.

Vote: 2x Roleblocker

I'm not voting for Godfather yet because I'm not 100% convinced it's the best choice. If it's between Godfather and Janitor then no doubt Godfather.

Even if there is a Godfather and we have masons, and they pick the Godfather, they can immediatly claim and include who recruited who. If they both claim to be the recruiter we know one of htem is the Godfather, if not then we know who is guaranteed town and who isn't. Since the second mason partner can recruit on the death of hte intial one, we just have to see who the mafia kills. If they kill the initial one then we know the second is the Godfather. If none of them die then we can be pretty sure there's a Godfather in the mix

That is not true. As this has posted, the mafia could quite easily WIFOM. Either way, with godfather, mason can only really be used to confirm one person.

Rushing this phase is not fine. What the ****?

Also not everyone is forced to participate in FOS'ing people lmao. It's not a requirement to vote, Ranmaru. Just because people haven't developed enough reads to be suspicious of people yet doesn't mean that when day one starts people will suddenly decide that it's time to start finding people suspicious. The reason why people haven't been voting/FOS'ing people is because there hasn't been noteworthy discussion until like late page 7/page 8 that was vote-worthy.

Everything that you can do in D1 you can do now except for the actual vote. Stop trying to rush this important part of the game.

Whilst it is true you can still FoS, discussion concerning scumhunting is typically overwhelmed by the distraction of PR choosing. As such, it can be extremely difficult to scumhunt properly while in this stage, which is intended for other purposes.

My bad, I was confused on the mason role. I thought it only allowed the second mason to recruit someone else, apparently the first mason can also recruit a replacement if his partner dies. But in the mason, if one of them is killed, the other one can pick again. It can only happen once.

Since the benefit of the mason is to publicly reveal who they are to show they're town, it's assumed that they'll do this. They just need to include who was the recruiter and who was recruited. That way we know who is cleared town and who isn't. If they disagree and both try to say they recruited the other, or one refuses, then we have pretty good evidence that they picked the Godfather. We can then check to see who if any of them are night killed.

Once again, the mason's power can only really be used to clear one person if a godfather is involved.

Because it will be inevitable to speculate when no one has a clue what alignment the person was.

It's possible to completely taboo it. Such as immediately FoS on anyone who mentions it. However, it is perhaps a bit too much, especially when considering the consequences of having a PR involved.

Is it a general consensus that they gave us vig?

Most, if not all of us believe they did, based off the hypo-ison. However, that does not necessarily mean they did, but it is rather likely.


Many of these things have been said before, but I just wanted to bring them up again, in relation directly to that quote.

 

[ranmaru]

Why do I have to tell you what I think? Why does it make me scummy to not do so? Why did you ignore the point I made about mafia wanting to be active during this phase?

It is anti-town for you not to answer. It is pro-scum to stay in this phase any longer, because they can simply not do anything and avoid being pressured, since there is no way to vote or lynch now. You not giving out any content also prevents others and myself from reading you. The only way to read a player who banks on his defense is to pressure him. What is your response to that? Will you still hold on to your reads?

Vote: Jan

@ Xivii @Maven: You both have played with a Town Seal. Is this indicative of his past town play?

 

[ranmaru]

Jaytheunseen why did you like Seal's post?

 

[JeXs]

If we think they gave us vig why would we want a vengeful???