Phantom Scrolls: SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread [Discussing Sheik]

[RyokoYaksa]

Then maybe you need to stop assuming and pay more attention. I don't like how he throws the Kie card im my face. Like what he does matters and what everyone else does means nothing. if Kie stop floating to air attacks, turnip cancel and TLC, does that mean its useless and everyone that makes use for it is just being pointless? HE DOES NOT DO IT, SO LETS ALL NOT DO IT. IF YOU DO, IT HAS NO USE. That is straight up disrespect for trying to help and and explain the use of something.

I don't care what the dude did in another game. THIS is not THAT game. And if he is not abusing something good, that's his doing and does not mean what I do is useless. But of course you would look past that and have the typical assumption like the rest to see a show and start something. Don't disrespect someone who has not done it to you. Simple as that.

But you do you man, as I said, I am not even gonna deal with you. I'm not here to fight. Nor did I come here for the nonsense.

If you are so insistent on walking away, why are you perpetuate being so acridly defensive here? I don't really care if you're not addressing me directly in discussion. If you're posting on a public forum and can't contain the vitriol when it's not called for, you have no reason to be surprised when people call you out for it. There are plenty of more tactful, effective ways to shut out an argument that don't involve making everyone else read through your unpleasantries. Saying you "have more important things to do" than give any of us the time of day is the exact opposite of walking away respectfully. You're not fooling anyone. It's all the more confusing when people here including myself are in general agreement that Peach is not one of Zelda's better matchups.

 

[Mr.CreamCakes]

Let's talk about her vs captain falcon which I find as a pretty decent match up for her

Also I don't see the match up for little Mac as bad anymore since phantom like walls him because he can't jump over it, little Mac in the air is gonna be easy to attack. It can stop his approuchs so well. Also one more thing... dair. She can grab him and get him offstage and then just Attack him or spike him and he probably won't come back

 

[Queen B. Kyon]

After playing the mu a bit. The mu still seems bad for Zelda. Wish I could jab grab tho. I still feel the game is too new to be making full mu statements. Especially since the new one with the c stick will be here soon. Which i feel will boost peach even further. Just wait a bit.

 

[Meru.]

I know Din's Fire can be cancelled. I've known this for years. It's not about being predictable, it's about outpatiencing the opponent. Zelda doesn't want to be the one approaching. Obviously Din's Fire won't be doing much damage but it always forces a reaction and if you have the patience to just sit back it'll be fine. Peach's slow movement is masked by her float. Characters like Captain Falcon can exploit defensive play from Zelda because they can weave in and out so well, but Peach can't do this aside from throwing turnips which still requires you to be in midrange.

I've played this matchup so much as both characters. As Peach, I find much better success playing safe than aggressive. Problem is that the same applies to Zelda too. At this point in the game, where "bad" characters can still do major work, I'd give the advantage to whoever is not approaching. If they're both going in, Peach probably wins. I think fundamentally, Peach is the better character though.

Peach must not overcommit at all. No laggy moves, no dash attacks, and no dsmash unless she wants to die at 70%. http://youtu.be/nbSLE9Xb4Ww?t=20m

I completely agree with this. Frankly, I think its very easy for Peach players to think 'lol zelda bad just gonna run her over', only to be kicked in the face. In that vid Nairo excellent punished stuff like poorly spaced aerials, especially with Up B. Even if Peach has plently of tools against Zelda, she really has to stay on her toes. Dins Fire works decently because Peach is kinda forced to do something and come closer. Peach doesn't have to commit to Zelda an awful lot because most of the things she does is safe and has range (btw the range on her Bair doesn't really feel nerfed, at least not in a shorthop) but you can make her commit by running around, having her come to you and Nairing her jumps. When you hit her punish her sloooow landings with dash attack and grab (watch out for the Fair and Dair with million range)and keep momentum. Punish unsafe attacks, jumps and landings, punishing is key in this match-up since it shifts momentum to Zelda's side and you need that a lot vs Peach (most characters do versus her since she's a pretty momentum-based char). Peach may be a safe character, but let's face it, she's not gonna be safe all the time, everybody makes mistake, and Zelda can punish Peach's mistakes pretty hard (yay UpB). Unlike Brawl this match-up actually feels winnable now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Let's talk about her vs captain falcon which I find as a pretty decent match up for her

Also I don't see the match up for little Mac as bad anymore since phantom like walls him because he can't jump over it, little Mac in the air is gonna be easy to attack. It can stop his approuchs so well. Also one more thing... dair. She can grab him and get him offstage and then just Attack him or spike him and he probably won't come back

Can Little Mac Straight Lunge through Phantom? I mean yeah, it's usually a bad move for him, but it does have good range and Super Armor.

 

[Mr.CreamCakes]

Can Little Mac Straight Lunge through Phantom? I mean yeah, it's usually a bad move for him, but it does have good range and Super Armor.

He can't lunge thru it

As a kirby main tbh zelda isn't a problem since his crouch can crouch under 50% of her moves and she's comboed easily. She's not fast either so kirby can easily chase her if needed and she's not exactly heavy either. His utilt combos rack up percent fast

 

[JigglyZelda003]

seeing as we've been on Peach for a minute, any suggestions on who we should move to next?

 

[BJN39]

Perhaps someone who's very often played? Or someone that is currently considered a common tourney threat? Sounds like a good idea for Zeldas entering tourneys to know about the more common MUs for starters. Though, it'll hardly help I suppose when there are SO MANY DANG CHARS.

 

[Rickster]

In that case, I suggest discussing Rosalina or Sheik. They both look pretty dangerous right now.

Or we could just go in order of "worst MUs first". May as well get the painful ones figured out. Then again, the top chars ARE her worst MUs, lol.

 

[Mr.CreamCakes]

Kirbys pretty bad for her... Kirbys crouch is godlike

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Perhaps someone who's very often played? Or someone that is currently considered a common tourney threat? Sounds like a good idea for Zeldas entering tourneys to know about the more common MUs for starters. Though, it'll hardly help I suppose when there are SO MANY DANG CHARS.

lol so many characters so little matchup experience. i'm still waiting on a luigi and i just fought my first MK for smash 4 in rollglory today lol.

In that case, I suggest discussing Rosalina or Sheik. They both look pretty dangerous right now.

Or we could just go in order of "worst MUs first". May as well get the painful ones figured out. Then again, the top chars ARE her worst MUs, lol.

considering i feel Sheik is pushing on unwinnable i was going to suggest Sheik, but i just wanted some more input to not be dictator lol. I think Rosie is Peach hard, but might not be so bad...i hope

Kirbys pretty bad for her... Kirbys crouch is godlike

Kirby can have a Dtilt...and have a good day.

 

[Mr.CreamCakes]

Actually he is a good defensive character if he needs to be one. He can approuch and zelda can't which forces her to since kirby can camp her out and a mistake can cause her utilt and uairs strings. His crouch can dodge her grab, ftilt, Usmash, side smash, jab, etc.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Sheik discussion begins today, lets get some good discussion going.

 

[PrimalCarnage]

Defensive Needle-Spam Shiek is one of the biggest headache MU's for Zelda imo. Can't reflect needles effectively, and if you try you get punished hard. Approach as always is dangerous and not the best position for Zelda. I think the best option for Zelda to try is to outrange Shiek's needle. DF will out-range her needles, forcing her to approach you, but you will need to quickly powershield or spot-dodge because Sheik's dash/grab mix-up will punish you if you are not fast enough.

Most of Zelda's slower attacks are too laggy to be of much use, so lots of dair, jab and ftilt. Once your sure you're caught her, then go in for grabs. On the plus side, Shiek's bomb and bouncing fish tactics are punishable (iirc) so once they start trying to kill you, you can rack up damage easier.

But yeah, horrible MU. At least 6:4 in Shiek's favor, but most likely 7:3.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

bumping to revitalize thread. I'm hoping that the Wii u version will help bring some activity back. I'm going to update with the Peach matchup probably next week (holiday time in retail is killing my free time)

 

[Rickster]

I actually forgot we had a MU thread lol.

So Sheik...it sucks for us. Despite playing Sheik some, I don't really know what to say. I usually try and take advantage of Zelda's disjointed hitboxes to wall Sheik out. Be quick on the shield grabs, since her range is shortish. Elevator a blocked dash attack (if they actually do that). I use an uncharged Phantom to block needles expecting, since reflecting is useless with the end lag on Nayru's.

Definitely in Sheiks favor, 6-4....probably more like 7-3. Funny how badly Zelda beats herself up.

 

[BJN39]

Funny how badly Zelda beats herself up.

Fun fact; it's widely agreed that the Melee Sheik:Zelda MU is 90:10 Sheik's favor.

 

[Xys]

When you go in to poke with dins her needles come out so much faster. She also out speeds you in everyday up close. I find the best way to inflict damage on her is 2 attack her when she casts her bomb out. If you can't reach her during that move use up B on her. It is a really bad match up for Zelda.

 

[Furret]

Sheik discussion begins today, lets get some good discussion going.

what is there to discuss? Shiek has this match up with more options to approach then Zelda even has answers for. Even when forcing Shiek to back off, she'll come back with charged needles giving her another entry option. Saving grace used to be Shiek's recovery, but somehow that always seems to be getting better each game

 

[JigglyZelda003]

-snip-

there is always room for discussion until its clear who a regular victor is.

 

[Furret]

fair enough

 

[PrimalCarnage]

Not Sheik, but I feel like the Greninja MU is almost basically the same. Spammy interruptible projectile, dash grab that is relatively safe and outranges a lot, and a good recovery which makes dair relatively useless. Only thing different is his counter and teleport, so you can't use phantom effectively. Opening are harder to find on Greninja too, at best there's his usmash but most likely they'll go for the safer fair kills.

Like Shiek, a 6:4 or 7:4 in Greninja favor.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

so does anyone want to help revitalize our matchup thread, its something we can do in our attempting to make mid tier lol

 

[Hyrule Candy]

@Aerodrome @ Berserker.
@kyokoro_pamuyo can I get a sticky in here?

 

[Berserker.]

@Aerodrome @ Berserker. can I get a sticky in here?

I don't moderate these boards. I only do this for the Shulk boards. I think Aerodrome or Kyokoro can answer your request.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

Oh okay. Thanks

 

[mountain_tiger]

Zelda vs Sheik is a hella annoying matchup for us, for reasons that have already been stated - Sheik can run rings around us at close range, and camp us with Needles at long range.

Basically you need to try and stay outside of her grab range and inside of our FTilt range for as long as you possibly can. FSmashes, FTilts and jabs are needed to try and keep her out... but not too far out. If she does get in, DTilt is the least risky option, and if it hits you can get some momentum of your own going. Nayru's can work once in a blue moon if they're being predictable in their offense, but that option is really risky for obvious reasons.

As for what to do if she's at long range and camping with Needles and Grenades? Basically just walk towards her, maybe with the occasional short hop, shielding as and when necessary. Eventually she's going to run out of stage and have to start moving towards you. You'll probably take a few percent damage before you can get close to her, but that's kind of an inevitability in this match anyway...

If you land a grab, always go for UThrow (unless she's at 200% and BThrow will kill, I guess, but if she's at 200% and not dead that's a big problem in itself...) Her Dair is super risky, and her other escape option, Bouncing Fish, is similarly risky and easy to punish if baited - these set-ups are generally better than what you could get from her other throws. On a similar level, if you're going to try and edgeguard her, I recommend getting below her and trying Uair. At first glance, that seems counter-intuitive, but trying to edgeguard her the 'traditional' way is a bad idea - her aerials provide great protection due to their speed and range, so lightning kicks are a no-no. But when she's off-stage, she can't use Dair (since, you know, instant death if she does), and up B is very slow, so her only option to escape Uair beyond a baitable air dodge is... Bouncing Fish... which can be baited into a Uair. :D

Long story short, it's not totally unwinnable, but you do need to be much more precise than Sheik does in this match.

 

[BJN39]

I will say we have the weight-based perk of starting to escape her combos slightly earlier in %. Which will hurt for sheik.

Not to mention how safe our recovery can get to the ledge from afar, making it a hassle for Sheik to go after you. (And making that early near side blastzone KO less likely.) Just be careful about her ledge trump BAir

AND, since she has a low set of reliable KO options, we can get a little rage boost fun more often. Possibly even letting us use FW elevator at an earlier percent and KO her earlier than usual.

I'd say this is somewhere at 45:55 or 40:60, more than likely 40:60 in sheik's favor. Even with these little goodies we have, as it has already been sort of covered that sheik still is a monster for Zelda to battle.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Not Sheik, but I feel like the Greninja MU is almost basically the same. Spammy interruptible projectile, dash grab that is relatively safe and outranges a lot, and a good recovery which makes dair relatively useless. Only thing different is his counter and teleport, so you can't use phantom effectively. Opening are harder to find on Greninja too, at best there's his usmash but most likely they'll go for the safer fair kills.

Like Shiek, a 6:4 or 7:4 in Greninja favor.

Greninja definitely gives me a lot of trouble too. When I've fought against good Greninja players on For Glory, I felt there wasn't much I could do. I feel like it's worse than the Sheik match-up, if only slightly.

 

[Salad Bowl]

After playing dark peach, shooting dins when peach is floating is a good way to add pressure. This is a MU where dins come in handy