Phantom Scrolls: SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread [Discussing Sheik]

[CandyCakes]

Kataefi:
At the height in which she floats to attack your shield, pivot grab her. She'll either float higher or retreat her aerials instead. Pivot grab is absolutely key as it outranges her aerials funnily enough and is generally a good anti-air if you don't slide back.

You are gonna eat a dair for that. If I float at the right height, you can not pivot grab me and you will either eat a dair or get shield pressured. Also with a Floating fair, I can clap Zelda right on her head at the right height avoiding her Grab. Her fair has more range then you think. Its better in this game.



Also when she floats, keep track of the time in which you think she'll land. Don't dins fire her landing as she can cancel that and a lot of her landing lag with nair. Just shoot a phantom or teleport into her when she lands to keep her in check every now and then!!

Ok.

The thing about peach now is that a lot of her range has become more honest with her animations. You can really space against her very well on the ground as her jab/ftilt are no longer as interruptive than in brawl, while zelda's jab/ftilt/fsmash have been fine-tuned!! Zelda's grab being wtf great also allows her to grab things she could NEVER have done before in this matchup!!

Her Fair, Dtilt and are not honest to her animatiom AT ALL. Her Dtilt hitbox has long reach. Her Fair hitbox is past the swing animation. Her jabs are still hella quick. The only nerfs about it is that I cant quickly jab cancel her first jab. And the range on her first jab is nerfed. Her second jab has more range. If I space a move like nair I can jab you out of anything you try to do if you wish to push a button on me. You are still not safe from this set up. I just have to be more careful with it and on point.

Also I n the air, she can't abuse fair/bair to the ridiculous levels she could in brawl... So you can contest her float with all kinds of stuff now. Aerial phantom is good if she has a turnip as it can shield against her turnip lag cancel!

I can auto cancel fairs via short hops and use that as a spacing tool. And if I have a turnip in hand and space it on shield, I can then TLC. So I can still abuse fair to stop your approaches in the air and pressure your shield. I can also short hop auto cancel bair and its also good for spacing in the air. I can do a floating fair and land at the right time to cancel the lag. And be safe from whatever counter attack you have ready for me thinking you can punish it. If I have a turnip in hand and I fair your shield upclose I can TLC canceling the fair animation INSTANTLY AND TOSS THE TURNIP. Punishing anything you try to do OoS. Think of it as a replacement for my fair to jab pressure. But better and more frame traps from it.

Peach doesn't have anything for zeldas RC pivot grab

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Is Naryu's love viable in this matchup? I feel like it could be a good gtfo option for an approaching peach. Though it depends on how big of a range is gets when it hits.

I feel like nayrus is a faster option than dsmash on the 3ds at this time due to lack of smash stick. But other than to get out of a jab>grab set up it has no new special use

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach doesn't have anything for zeldas RC pivot grab

Wanna bet?

 

[CandyCakes]

Wanna bet?

Well what I mean is that many peachs approuch by floating and zelda can just RC pivot grab

 

[Meru.]

Wooo! I play both of these characters a lot and I have played the match-up a few times so I know a thing or two about this.

Generally as Zelda you want your opponent to approach you and Peach is no exception. Fighting a Peach that approaches you is perhaps even more beneficial in this match-up than versus other characters since Peach's mobility is sloooow, making it easier to punish stuff like floating approaches, grounded approaches and her landings. Nair works great vs a floating Peach and vs a grounded Peach things like Fsmash, Dtilt, Dsmash, Jab and Nayru's are very effective. Watch out for the turnip, you can reflect it well vs grounded Peaches. Try to avoid the turnips though, run away and let her Peach chase because you really don't want Peach to zone you and lock you down. On shield Peach is pretty solid though, a lot of her stuff is safe so don't rely on too much on shield or whiff punishes. Let her chase you and punish her mobility options, jumps and landings.

However, if the Peach player knows the match-up and doesn't float approach 24/7 or approach in general... oh god that's where the horror starts. Turnips are a pain. Her plucks are pretty laggy though so try to stop her from plucking one and avoid getting hit or even shielding one, because she can start her pressure really well from a turnip throw. Peach also wins the spacing game easily because she moves back after hitting on shield so almost everything she does is almost unpunishable. On top of that, everything she does is much faster than anything Zelda can do. Zelda will have to be really patient and punish stuff like her jumps and landings with moves like Fsmash, Ftilt or Phantom. Don't play her spacing game because you will lose, have her chase you all the time. Zelda's Usmash nerf really hurts in this match-up since stuff like Peach's Dair has become even more of a pain...

Be patient when you get hit, Peach is good at pressuring. Occasionally throw out a lightning kick while landing. It's unsafe but it throws Peach out of her rhythm and sometimes you might even hit the sweetspot. Most Peaches will respect your landing more after getting killed by kicks. Escaping with Farore's works fairly well at times since Peach's dash is slow but Farore's also has looong ending lag. Use it if you know you'll land safely or far enough for Peach not reaching you in time. You really don't want Peach to land another hit on you since she can continue her pressure for eternity, and she also kills much earlier in this game.

tl;dr let her chase you and be patient. This match-up is a true test of patience. I think it's pretty piss for Zelda though... It isn't very hard to hit Zelda with stuff like Dair so Peach can start her pressure easily and out spacing Zelda isn't hard either with her float since Zelda doesn't reach her too well when she's floating (R.I.P Usmash, Zelda's Nair works decently well though) or moving back after doing an aerial. Peach gets worse when she has to chase her opponents but she doesn't need to chase Zelda since she has turnips, aerials, a float and Zelda's mobility is just as slow as Peach's is.

 

[BJN39]

While probably not a large factor in the MU, it should be noted that Zelda has gained significant ground in recovery safety VS Peach. I definitely think Peach will need to rely on blastzone KOs to get Zelda. Which while easily possible, was never Brawl Peach's (And the similar KO prowess SSB4 peach.) best point.

 

[Meru.]

To be honest Peach doesn't have a lot of problems killing anymore. Her Fair is really strong now. Her Fsmash, Usmash, Dash Attack and Bthrow all got buffed too in terms of killing power. She's actually a bit of an average killer now which is a great improvement from Brawl where she was awful at killing. It doesn't help either that Zelda is light and not very hard to hit as Peach...

That said I do think Zelda survives longer this time because her recovery isn't free anymore. She can actually make it back this time, and it can also kind of reset the situation. Peach, hungry for the kill, may start approaching and chasing a bit more. Situations like these are golden for Zelda since she can turn the tide with this.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Well what I mean is that many peachs approuch by floating and zelda can just RC pivot grab

That's a player habit. not a character Problem. if you expect every Peach player to just float all the time and to this, you will get punished for it. High level Peach players are gonna be mixing up air and ground approaches a lot. And if you think like this, you will be getting punished hard.

While probably not a large factor in the MU, it should be noted that Zelda has gained significant ground in recovery safety VS Peach. I definitely think Peach will need to rely on blastzone KOs to get Zelda. Which while easily possible, was never Brawl Peach's (And the similar KO prowess SSB4 peach.) best point.

How, Explain this to me.

 

[CandyCakes]

That's a player habit. not a character Problem. if you expect every Peach player to just float all the time and to this, you will get punished for it. High level Peach players are gonna be mixing up air and ground approaches a lot. And if you think like this, you will be getting punished hard.

I myself am I peach main but when I face peach dittos in a tournament or just in glory they seem to have a habit of floating approaching and that could easily get adapted to which isn't good. That's what I'm notice in a of my battle against peach

 

[Dark.Pch]

And do you really expect a smart high level Peach to do that? If you was to fight someone like me thinking that, you would be in for a surprise. That is why I am telling you that you can't think like that. Most of these players as of now just pick something good about a character and abuse it a lot. Not ever really thinking about mixing it up. If you treat a smart player like that and think he will do the same thing in such a pattern you are gonna get rekt for it. Then have no idea what to do next.

 

[CandyCakes]

And do you really expect a smart high level Peach to do that? If you was to fight someone like me thinking that, you would be in for a surprise. That is why I am telling you that you can't think like that. Most of these players as of now just pick something good about a character and abuse it a lot. Not ever really thinking about mixing it up. If you treat a smart player like that and think he will do the same thing in such a pattern you are gonna get rekt for it. Then have no idea what to do next.

Lol yeah I've seen ur peach. U and slayerz aren't the peachs that approuch by floating. U both r really good. I hope we get to battle on the wii u version in the future. But yeah I haven't played a SMART high level peach yet.

 

[Dark.Pch]

We could play on the 3ds now if you want for the hell of it.

With that said back on topic of this thread. I don't really don't think I have much to said outside of me correcting some things that were stated here. Unless there is any other questions or concerns so you guys can quickly move on to the next character to explore.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

How, Explain this to me.

Faroes new speed combined with the new ledge mechanics makes it easier on the recovery for Zelda because she can't be edgehogged and angular edges like FD Zelda will slide up to the edge from underneath and not get the old lol corner gimp.

 

[Mr.CreamCakes]

to me the match up is even. Zelda can camp out peach well and also RC pivot grab her when shes float recklessly or just as a surprise. Peach can rack up damage fast and can also kill as fast as she can so it just seems even to me

 

[Dark.Pch]

I don't see how you can camp me well. Peach can nair Zeldas Dins fire. Your Phantom is not a spammable move. When you throw it out, Peach can air dodge throw it to the ground and TLC pushing you for it. If you wanna throw that move out a lot, I can attack it even giving the chance and break it. So that is a move you need to be careful with. If I go over or under it, you are open. Its more risky when I have a turnip in hand.

Its not hard to get in. Your Phantom does slow me down a lil. I just have to be on point with approaching you and more cautious. Once I mix up how I approach it can become hard to tell when to toss that out. And I have a number of ways to approach you if I even have too. Compare to one somewhat decent approach method. You really can't wall me out.

 

[Mr.CreamCakes]

If she puts out phantom and dins while the phantom is out it might limit her approach and Zelda can jump in with nair unexpectedly when its safe or she can RC pivot grab. Even if peach avoid and goes over the phantom, zelda could probably shield or nayrus love away the turnip. a reflector will be useful this match up and I think its 50/50 since they both have tools for each other

 

[Dark.Pch]

That is way too slow to begin with. That is not a solid wall. All I have to pay attention too is where you place that phantom. Air or ground, and then go over or under it as you toss out dins fire. With either way I choose I get pass the phantom and nair your dins fire. Now I am close to you.

If I have a turnip in my hand, I dont always have to throw it. I can space another move and move in/out. Making you think I would and you use Nayrus love, and I can then punish you with a Fair or dair from above. So that is not a move to panic too against a smart player. I don not have to float to a typical turnip toss at you. And reasons for that is cause of what you just said with nayrus love. As a smart player I first have to observse what you do when I am at a distance and near you. Then make decisions based on what the player does. Same for a smart Zelda Player. I am not gonna play everyone the same way cause people think and respond differently with said situations. Get reflector happy against a smart player and watch what is gonna happen to you.

The point is you can not wall me out and I can freely nair your Dins fire giving me time to get close to you. Your Phantom only overs one options. Air or ground, and you have to choose.

If I get close to you while you pull these moves I can force a block or scare you to doing a naryus love if I come near you with a turnip, leaving open for a clean hit. With a turnip in hand and hear you I have scary options. Me being on your shield or limiting your space is bad for you. And if I space my moves with solid pressure, think twice before trying to Up-B out of your shield. You will be left open. My moves are safe on shield. Really if I TLC them.

That is not an even situation.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

you can't nayrus turnips unless peach tosses them straight at your face, which doesn't happen.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Are you saying Zelda is open from the top or that you just can't simply panic to the move as a habit?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Are you saying Zelda is open from the top or that you just can't simply panic to the move as a habit?

Zelda is open in that 45 degree angle. its the same as brawl where if Peach tosses the turnip from the air that way zelda either has to catch the turnip/block/escape because nayrus just forces it into the ground. you can't panic nayrus really because Peach can simply block or hit zelda first if she tries to panic it most of the time, it doesn't seem like this has changed.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I never new about that angle in brawl. Guess I was bad at aiming for it. learn something new today. This is why you ask questions kids.

I might be confused with something. If I am for that angle, Are you saying it just forces the turnip to the ground or it will straight hit her out of the move?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

rather than reflect it back at peach from a 45 degree angle the turnip reflects down away from zelda at the same angle like so


...............
...........floor.......................floor.............
.................

its really frustrating, but its why peach can turnip camp zelda so well in brawl other than glidetoss reverse.

 

[Mr.CreamCakes]

rather than reflect it back at peach from a 45 degree angle the turnip reflects down away from zelda at the same angle like so


...............
...........floor.......................floor.............
.................

its really frustrating, but its why peach can turnip camp zelda so well in brawl other than glidetoss reverse.

This always annoyed me since the only thinks that reflected back R projectiles that came straight

 

[Dark.Pch]

Yea.....might wanna change your gameplan there kiddo.

 

[Alacion]

Just spam Din's Fire until Peach approaches. I think Zeldas in general are more patient than Peachs. Play lame and try to zone Peach out.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Just spam Din's Fire until Peach approaches. I think Zeldas in general are more patient than Peachs. Play lame and try to zone Peach out.

I just went through this already dude . If all you care about is beating players who just wanna be in the air all day doing the same, typical predicatble stuff, then go ahead.

You are not gonna beat a smart high level Peach like that.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I think Aleate meant when saying that the "Spam Dins" comment means use it to get peach to move not as a camp for damage. Lol

unless you have a full screen projectile dins is ok at getting people in motion in some direction or another even if it doesn't hit.

 

[Alacion]

I just went through this already dude . If all you care about is beating players who just wanna be in the air all day doing the same, typical predicatble stuff, then go ahead.

You are not gonna beat a smart high level Peach like that.

I know Din's Fire can be cancelled. I've known this for years. It's not about being predictable, it's about outpatiencing the opponent. Zelda doesn't want to be the one approaching. Obviously Din's Fire won't be doing much damage but it always forces a reaction and if you have the patience to just sit back it'll be fine. Peach's slow movement is masked by her float. Characters like Captain Falcon can exploit defensive play from Zelda because they can weave in and out so well, but Peach can't do this aside from throwing turnips which still requires you to be in midrange.

I've played this matchup so much as both characters. As Peach, I find much better success playing safe than aggressive. Problem is that the same applies to Zelda too. At this point in the game, where "bad" characters can still do major work, I'd give the advantage to whoever is not approaching. If they're both going in, Peach probably wins. I think fundamentally, Peach is the better character though.

Peach must not overcommit at all. No laggy moves, no dash attacks, and no dsmash unless she wants to die at 70%. http://youtu.be/nbSLE9Xb4Ww?t=20m

 

[Dark.Pch]

Dude, I can weave in and out with her QFR. (Quick float realese). or did you forget about that. And peach is not slow. I don't think you have yet to fight a Peach with clean movement.

Dins fire is not gonna make me approach you BTW. I'll Nair in place and not move. Then what? That move does not force me to go in on you.

If I have to get near you to get damage, I can do it without much trouble. You on the other hand? Its a problem. Even with the phantom. If I am in your range and you are on the defense you have to deal with pressure, its a problem. Really with a turnip. You near me on shield is not really a scary thing.

If Both players are playing patient, Peach has the upper hand. wether I approach or not. I have many ways to wall you out both air and the ground. I have many ways to approach both air and the ground. If you want me to come to you I can do that just find and put you on the defense. Dealing with my frame traps and pressure. If you approach me, its even better. You don't win in any of these situations.

If anything, me going to you would be the best choice since your strength is waiting and countering rather then agro. But that's it. Don't forget I am hella dangerous with a turnip near you in this game.

 

[Alacion]

Peach IS a slow character who has always relied on techniques to reduce lag or low lag moves like her dair. I'm assuming you have never played a cat and mouse game as Peach because this really showcases how slow Peach is. I have yet to see a single Peach use Quick Float Release... especially not from the likes of the top Smash 4 Peach players. Even Kie, who heralded this technique in Brawl, doesn't use it in Smash 4. Don't tell me Peach players will suddenly begin to use this against random Zeldas.

No... Din's Fire never forces an approach, but using nair doesn't either. Stalemate I guess.

Peach's pressure is great as it was in Brawl. It doesn't mean it's unbeatable. One of the best things any character can do is to shield tilt upwards against Peach's dair. This will almost always prevent a shieldpoke. There is a window to punish with either nair or Farore's Wind (too bad no Zelda players aside from Nairo actually uses it or recognizes how good this is). Even in Brawl, Peach's dair on your shield was always able to be punished and Peach could not remain above somebody after using dair if the opponent caught on.

Regarding Peach "walls", I'm going to assume you mean turnips and bairs. Not a huge deal if Zelda doesn't approach. Bair has lost a lot of range. Since we are using theoretical options, Zelda can instant throw Peach's turnips back. Do you recall how effectively 9B used this against Kie (who probably only beat 9B once, and lost to him later that same tournament)? Peach's fair cancel to turnip throw might pose a problem but it's minimal damage if you shield the fair. Care needs to be taken if Peach is holding a stitchface though since Zelda will be taking either a Stitchface at point blank or suffer a shield break.

Like I said earlier, Peach definitely beats Zelda overall. I think Peach's most common approaches is dair and Bomber. These are great tools and Zelda can't really compete with this but it doesn't automatically make Peach unstoppable. Bomber is safe on shield and can be followed up with a dair or something... really dangerous stuff for Zelda. You're right Peach approaching is a godsend for Zelda but a "smart" Peach shouldn't be doing this very often. Imo, this may be a 6:4 MU in Peach's favour.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I do that all the time. So those SlayerZ. I'm sorry that even players like Kie don't use it and not making great use of what it. As well as you not running to another Peach player that does it.

And I use it against EVERY character. This has NOTHING to do with Zelda. When I talk about match ups and I mention, I also explain the uses like quick movement, baiting, etc. So before you go assume stuff like this in my face how about you do some research with a character you so call use. Do you honestly pay any attention to my write ups at all?????

If you was to play me or SlayerZ, we would run circles around you in quick sessions and see how quick it makes me. How easy I can bait reactions. How It easy we can weave in and out of danger. Just cause Kie Does not use this great method of movement, does not mean others are not. This makes Peach has the best movement in this game.

So Again, don't throw that in my face when I been on this since day one along with researching this character and trying to help people like you out. You wanna think peach is slow? You wanna think her QFR is nothing cause the great Kie does not use it? Go right ahead. Do and think as you please. When you fight someone Like me and SlayerZ who go in with it and run circles around you I don't wanna hear anything.

I'm done here. I said what I had too. w/e else you wanna do in the match up or think you can do, get away with, that's on you.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I do that all the time. So those SlayerZ. I'm sorry that even players like Kie don't use it and not making great use of what it. As well as you not running to another Peach player that does it.

And I use it against EVERY character. This has NOTHING to do with Zelda. When I talk about match ups and I mention, I also explain the uses like quick movement, baiting, etc. So before you go assume stuff like this in my face how about you do some research with a character you so call use. Do you honestly pay any attention to my write ups at all?????

If you was to play me or SlayerZ, we would run circles around you in quick sessions and see how quick it makes me. How easy I can bait reactions. How It easy we can weave in and out of danger. Just cause Kie Does not use this great method of movement, does not mean others are not. This makes Peach has the best movement in this game.

So Again, don't throw that in my face when I been on this since day one along with researching this character and trying to help people like you out. You wanna think peach is slow? You wanna think her QFR is nothing cause the great Kie does not use it? Go right ahead. Do and think as you please. When you fight someone Like me and SlayerZ who go in with it and run circles around you I don't wanna hear anything.

I'm done here. I said what I had too. w/e else you wanna do in the match up or think you can do, get away with, that's on you.

Your years of aggressive character fanboyism are showing.

 

[Alacion]

You talk as if your flowcharts are foolproof and never consider the fact that the opponent can do stuff against Peach.

Well I watched the game vs him and Nairo. http://youtu.be/nbSLE9Xb4Ww?t=19m1s

How many times did he use that technique again? And okay, Peach has the best movement options in the game. The proof just can not be denied.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Your years of aggressive character fanboyism are showing.

I'm not even gonna get into it with you dude. If you wanna start something to show off, go else where.

You talk as if your flowcharts are foolproof and never consider the fact that the opponent can do stuff against Peach.

Well I watched the game vs him and Nairo. http://youtu.be/nbSLE9Xb4Ww?t=19m1s

How many times did he use that technique again? And okay, Peach has the best movement options in the game. The proof just can not be denied.

As I said, think and do w/e the heck you want. I don't care anymore.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I'm not even gonna get into it with you dude. If you wanna start something to show off, go else where.

As I said, think and do w/e the heck you want. I don't care anymore.

It would be more effective playing the "bigger man" card if you didn't already aggressively throw tantrums over minute points of contention. Looking at what Aleate said, and looking at what you said, it's a wonder anyone you debate with takes you seriously. I'm less about showing off and more about calling it like I see it.

 

[BJN39]

Tbh, I love how the Zelda MU thread is always derailed when we get to talking about Peach. Keep it up! ^ ^

*Palutena Laugh*

 

[Zerudahime]

Ill wreck any character with my Zelda.
come run circles around me please.

 

[Alacion]

Ill wreck any character with my Zelda.
come run circles around me please.

Make sure you record it too. @ Dark.Pch

 

[Tyketto]

I tend to see a lot of Captain Falcon, Greninja, Zero Suit Samus and Little Mac. ZSS and Mac I can usually handle. Greninja, it's hit or miss. Captain Falcon always gives me a tough time for some reason.

 

[Dark.Pch]

It would be more effective playing the "bigger man" card if you didn't already aggressively throw tantrums over minute points of contention. Looking at what Aleate said, and looking at what you said, it's a wonder anyone you debate with takes you seriously. I'm less about showing off and more about calling it like I see it.

Then maybe you need to stop assuming and pay more attention. I don't like how he throws the Kie card im my face. Like what he does matters and what everyone else does means nothing. if Kie stop floating to air attacks, turnip cancel and TLC, does that mean its useless and everyone that makes use for it is just being pointless? HE DOES NOT DO IT, SO LETS ALL NOT DO IT. IF YOU DO, IT HAS NO USE. That is straight up disrespect for trying to help and and explain the use of something.

I don't care what the dude did in another game. THIS is not THAT game. And if he is not abusing something good, that's his doing and does not mean what I do is useless. But of course you would look past that and have the typical assumption like the rest to see a show and start something. Don't disrespect someone who has not done it to you. Simple as that.

But you do you man, as I said, I am not even gonna deal with you. I'm not here to fight. Nor did I come here for the nonsense.

Make sure you record it too. @ Dark.Pch

I am not here to put on a show or deal with arrogant cocky people. Seriously waste of time .I have more important things to do within this game to get better like I have been doing everyday. I'm not gonna waste my time with some silly trash talking. If I beat him I'm not even gonna recorded it. I will not care. I seriously don't. I gain nothing. It does not help me get better at all at this game. I spend my time in a match with a cocky player, when I could have used my time doing what I been doing to step my game up. I don't care. You guys can talk, think and do what you want on the match up. I threw out my advice and tips so players can be aware when they fight a solid Peach player. Not these typical players online who do stuff and hope for the best. You take the advice or you don't. Done.

Oh and before you come at me with "But you trashed talk too" Let me just make this clear before people assume more stuff and have to explain EVERYTHING. Running circles around you is using the QFR which you seriously thing I can wave in and out while being fast with her. Its not me saying "I'll clearly beat the heck out of you if we played" But watch someone turn this around.

I'm not posting here anymore and I am unsubbing, cause by the looks of it, people really wanna start something and will drag more. And I don't feel like dealing with these people. This thread will not move along with people edging to start something. It's really not far for those that wanna learn stuff and move on while we have people posting stuff that is not even match up relate.

Don't tag me in anything else. I don't care nor wanna hear anything from you.