Petition to make Dreamland the only legal stage

[bloodpeach]

We should just cut to chase and make all matches pika dittos. Pika dittos are essentially infinitely deep. Why should we let extraneous 'character gimmicks' distract us from the true game, which is reading and understanding your opponent. Character options are boring and static; they are always the same in a given situation. It's just artificial difficulty. Only the play of your opponent is truly dynamic and interesting. Everything else should be removed.

... I dont actually care about stage list, but this argument is really dumb.

 

[M!nt]

^People control characters, people do not control stages so idk why you are making that point.

I really love peaches castle,but that sliding platform can be unfair sometimes.

Congo is probably the worst stage in the entire game IMO so yeah.

 

[Shears]

You guys are all idiots and I hate everyone, Saffron is the best stage in the game and you all fail to recognize that. Ness can go cry himself to sleep for all I care.

 

[Battlecow]

Ness being bad on saffron is a myth from 2006. Utilt-dair ftw

suck a ****, bloodpeach. Bad analogies are one thing but bad analogies that have already been made twice in this thread are ****in stupid

 

[bloodpeach]

yeah i brought it up again because your response last time was a mix of defensive insults and "i think character-character interactions are cooler".

good luck in law school buddy

 

[lordvaati]

Only Starter? Sure.

Only legal? Hell no, we are not Japan, we don't need their rules.

 

[Gammelnorsk]

y is saffron not allowed

i like kongers jungle it's a good stage

peach is good

 

[Chaostatic]

You should probably learn what this word means before you throw it around. Or not assume you know everything there is to know about the matter.

You're not gonna impress people by acting like your theorycraft-from-a-random is factual. This isn't the Melee boards.

Anyway, from what I gleaned skimming over this thread, people did a decent job bringing up some advantages recovering on Peach's has over Dreamland. I'm not even necessarily saying recoveries are better on Peach's. I just don't think they're WAY WORSE like some people act they are. There are pros and cons for both.

EDIT: I'm also gonna say that while people are separating the triangles/bumper from edgeguarding, I think they affect edgeguarding and should be counted. For example, if you wanna do the let-them-land-and-punish stuff, this has the disadvantage of letting them get their jump back, which is made all the more relevant because if they end up hitting the sides of the ****ing triangles, they can pretty much always jump back onto the stage without being forced to up-b. Just one example.

Aha I've been waiting for someone to call me out on that, ok i admit that i shouldn't have used objective lol. There's no need to be so damn hostile, salty pants.

IMO, considering the triangles and the bumpers (pretty much) affect everyone equally, they shouldn't be taken into account. If every character has an easier time staying alive, it doesn't really matter. It's all relative.

Having said that, regardless of the fact that there are technically an infinite number of scenarios, this discussion pretty much boils down to this: does the ability for a character to jump through the stage make up for the fact that canceling an up b is practically impossible?

In which case, i think it doesn't. Admittedly, characters like pika and yoshi aren't really hindered by the lack of ledges. But characters like dk and samus get ***** without ledges.

I agree with bloodpeach though, this discussion is dumb.

 

[Shears]

infinite

You should probably learn what this word means before you throw it around. Or not assume you know everything there is to know about the matter.

We have a finite amount of pixels, a finite amount of characters, a finite amount of directions, a finite amount of jump heights, a finite amount of upb heights, a finite amount of stages, therefore we TECHNICALLY have a finite amount of recovery scenarios.

10lookatmei'mthestarkingchars

 

[Chaostatic]

You should probably learn what this word means before you throw it around. Or not assume you know everything there is to know about the matter.

We have a finite amount of pixels, a finite amount of characters, a finite amount of directions, a finite amount of jump heights, a finite amount of upb heights, a finite amount of stages, therefore we TECHNICALLY have a finite amount of recovery scenarios.

10lookatmei'mthestarkingchars

Lol'd

 

[The Star King]

shut up Shears

Aha I've been waiting for someone to call me out on that, ok i admit that i shouldn't have used objective lol. There's no need to be so damn hostile, salty pants.

I wasn't hostile at all. Or at least didn't mean to be.

Tired internet stuff.

IMO, considering the triangles and the bumpers (pretty much) affect everyone equally, they shouldn't be taken into account. If every character has an easier time staying alive, it doesn't really matter. It's all relative.

Wat.

We're comparing recovering overall on Dreamland vs Congo. How does "if every character has an easier time staying alive" lead to "it doesn't really matter"? If anything it supports my point.

Your post seems like it's talking about a different, nonexistent discussion about comparing between characters' recoveries on Peach's or something, kind of weird.

 

[Chaostatic]

Bleh I suck at explaining things.

Alright, let's say that someone did a **** ton of research and came up with this conclusion:

The average percent any given character will die on DL is 60%.
On Congo, 50%.
On Peaches, 70%.

Obviously these are arbitrary numbers, but to be honest, I don't think that the ratio is that farfetched.

What I'm trying to say is that just because characters live longer on Peaches than they do on DL or Congo, doesn't mean their recoveries are better. The actual recoveries on Peaches are far worse IMO, it's just that the the stage makes it a lot easier to survive.

Characters aren't living long because their recoveries are improved, they're living long because Peaches is a jank ass stage. It's a stage thing, not a character thing.

And no the two do not go hand and hand. As I said earlier, all characters are equally affected by the bumper and triangles, so it's foolish to even consider them in this discussion.

Bleh I still suck at explaining things. Are you catching my drift?

 

[rpotts]

Characters aren't living long because their recoveries are improved, they're living long because Peaches is a jank *** stage. It's a stage thing, not a character thing.

And no the two do not go hand and hand. As I said earlier, all characters are equally affected by the bumper and triangles, so it's foolish to even consider them in this discussion.

Bleh I still suck at explaining things. Are you catching my drift?

I disagree that characters are equally affected by the bumper and wedges; characters that rely on vertical kills (Fox, Luigi, maybe Pika) more often get their kills interupted by the bumper than characters with no real vertical kills (Link, Samus, Falcon).
Lighter and floatier characters fly away at a higher angle when knocked back and often are too high to bounce off the wedges compared to heavy, fast fallers like Falcon who gets knocked back at a lower angle and are more likely to hit the wedges, speaking from personal experience.

 

[M!nt]

Zenyore why did hide who voted for what?

 

[clubbadubba]

The actual recoveries on Peaches are far worse IMO, it's just that the the stage makes it a lot easier to survive.

Characters aren't living long because their recoveries are improved, they're living long because Peaches is a jank *** stage. It's a stage thing, not a character thing.

This is entirely semantics...

And no the two do not go hand and hand. As I said earlier, all characters are equally affected by the bumper and triangles, so it's foolish to even consider them in this discussion.

Seems pretty hand in hand to me. Of course they affect all characters differently. Character X excels at vertical comboing, bumper is a combo breaker. Character Y has a knockback move with a trajectory that hits players at a higher/lower angle than Character Z, triangles play a different role for each character.

 

[Battlecow]

One of the things I like about 64 is the fact that there are so few matchups to learn that you can learn all of them extraordinarily well.

I view character as a choice that my opponent can make, a facet of his playstyle that I have to learn and adapt to. The interactions between character and character are, in my mind, a lot cooler and deeper than the interactions between character and stage, which seem extraneous.

Basically it boils down to what's fundamental to the game and what's a distraction. I think everyone kind of knows that a character is kind of part of a playstyle whereas stages are outside of the pvp dynamic

yeah i brought it up again because your response last time was a mix of defensive insults and "i think character-character interactions are cooler".

So yeah, the defensive insults started with you and my argument extends beyond personal preference.

Listen, man, there are a lot of pretty good arguments to be made for stage diversity. If you just came up with some of them you could argue to a stalemate like ballin' kind of did; by mischaracterizing my argument in a fairly obvious way (and by being the flabby chode that you are straight out of the gate and without provocation), you found the only way you could actually lose this interaction straight-up. Unwise.

 

[bloodpeach]

I'm not arguing for or against stage diversity. Your argument is just horiffically bad. The fact that ballin' can 'stalemate' you by disagreeing with your personal preference speaks for itself. If you have something to your argument that goes beyond asserting your feelings without justification please share.

And my insults are obviously aggressive. 'Flabby chode' really is a middle school work of art though. I'm excited to see where you go next.

 

[Battlecow]

The fact that ballin' can 'stalemate' you by disagreeing with your personal preference speaks for itself. If you have something to your argument that goes beyond asserting your feelings without justification please share.

See here again you make the tactical error of saying things that are incorrect. Since this argument is substantively the same as your first one, I call your attention once more to post #44. It is not only or mainly a statement of personal preference.

If you don't want to be called a flabby chode lose weight and stop being a chode for no good reason.

 

[bloodpeach]

You assert that stage interactions aren't deep or fun. I assert they are deep and fun. We have reached a stalemate! High level stuff.

I'm really disppointed you didn't have a new 7th grade insult waiting for me. Repeating the same one isn't very interesting of deep.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Will you two shut the **** up already? God damn.

You're killing my vibe with all this hate talk.

 

[Sedda]

lol battlecow...

 

[Battlecow]

You assert that stage interactions aren't deep or fun. I assert they are deep and fun. We have reached a stalemate! High level stuff.

I'm really disppointed you didn't have a new 7th grade insult waiting for me. Repeating the same one isn't very interesting of deep.

Basically it boils down to what's fundamental to the game and what's a distraction. I think everyone kind of knows that a character is kind of part of a playstyle whereas stages are outside of the pvp dynamic

Aiight aiight I'm done. I'm really bad at not sinking to people's levels--I argued with nova and smasher for like months before I let it all go, and it only took me like 4 posts this time to realize that I was doing the same thing again. So really this is an example of my blossoming maturity.

 

[SheerMadness]

Only person more demeaning than battlecattle when trying to defend their point is fireblaster.

Oh and your **** talk about Colbol and Plup right before Apex was right on bc lol.

Pwned by FL.

 

[NovaSmash]

Aiight aiight I'm done. I'm really bad at not sinking to people's levels--I argued with nova and smasher for like months before I let it all go, and it only took me like 4 posts this time to realize that I was doing the same thing again. So really this is an example of my blossoming maturity.

wat do i have to do with anything, please dont bring my name up. this is ur problem

 

[Cobrevolution]

battlecow fences, his opinion is void

and gav's opinion is void because he's gav

 

[NovaSmash]

battlecow fences, his opinion is void

and gav's opinion is void because he's gav

and no one cares about what u think, dumb troll

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Get back on topic and save the hate/****talk for your personal conversations and I would be forever grateful

kirby up tilt

 

[Cobrevolution]

and no one cares about what u think, dumb troll

i have actually defended my position on peach's with real statements and analyses and stuff, you've just said winning there means nothing. you lack the ability to have an actual discussion. and you're a flabby chode. ad hom is cool, right? you'll understand it perfectly since it's all you know how to do, friendo.

kirby utilt has nothing to do with any stage whatsoever. get sangoku back, he understands the frame data.

bumper/wedges aren't things that affect "recovery", per se...at least i never saw them that way. i think the barrel has more to do with recovery than those two. i don't think being stopped from losing a stock because of those two counts as being an aid in recovery or somehow helping ANY character's recovery. face it: most of the time, wedges hurt if you're recovering high, because you're ****ing blocked off by a huge goddamn wedge. and if you're recovering low, they're not a determining factor of whether or not you recover - it's based purely on the moving platform (which is also bull****, because it moves at a bad speed and lacks a ledge). and like has been said before: no ledge hurts more characters than wedges/bumper save. at least, that's how i feel.

all that being said, i don't think it's a bad legal stage; it's very hard to camp in optimal spots. hyrule's left side/under the tent basically creates an unapproachable aura, interrupted only by tornadoes, which are easily avoided. it is extremely hard to camp on the lower sides of peach's (in comparison to the sides of hyrule) because the platform retracts completely from one side, leaving a character literally no room to camp.

 

[NovaSmash]

"you lack the ability to have an actual discussion"

no i dont have time to talk to a crazy like u

 

[Cobrevolution]

why don't you try providing actual points of discussion for peach's castle being banned instead of just trying to single out the one sentence where i DIDN'T do that?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@ NovaSmash

stooooooooooop

Also I'm aware I have no idea about frame data for this game, I remember when I played this game back in school and thought Jiggs down B was useless

"THIS MOVE JUST PUTS JIGGLYPUFF TO SLEEP, WHAT A TERRIBLE MOVE"

but really can you guys discuss the issue in the thread title or even just Smash64 stuff, sort this personal thing out via PM or Skype or heck even in the social thread (i cannot guarentee the other members wont tell you to gtfo though)

 

[Cobrevolution]

that was a joke about the framedata AERONOOB

essentially, kirby utilt is borderline unstoppable on left side of hyrule. that's not the case on the bottom moving plat of peach's or even the main bottom plat, nor for the middle of congo's main stage. it is also stopped easier on dreamland than it is on hyrule.

something to note about peach's and recovering: it's painfully obvious when someone is going to recover through the platform or onto the main stage.

also a question about peach's: when i upb from the bottom moving plat to the main top plat, the upb stops. i thought the move continues irrespective of where she is? that is, i could aerial upb to the top of dreamland's plat and the move will carry out its full duration; why doesn't this happen on peach's?

 

[asianaussie]

but really can you guys discuss the issue in the thread title or even just Smash64 stuff, sort this personal thing out via PM or Skype or heck even in the social thread (i cannot guarentee the other members wont tell you to gtfo though)

 

[mixa]

also a question about peach's: when i upb from the bottom moving plat to the main top plat, the upb stops. i thought the move continues irrespective of where she is? that is, i could aerial upb to the top of dreamland's plat and the move will carry out its full duration; why doesn't this happen on peach's?

Because Peach's is a janky stage and DL is not.


The difference is between the up-Bs: the aerial one only has a hitbox when it's going up in the air, whereas the up-B from the ground has a hitbox even when Samus is falling down. Because of that, when you do an up-B from the ground, you might land before the last hitbox -- the one with higher knockback -- takes place.

It looks odd is because we rarely have a situation in which Samus is appropriately spaced for that (ground up-B to barely surpassing a surface), but if you look for those higher platforms, it will work on all of them (Yoshi's, Zebes, are two examples I've just found).

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

@ NovaSmash

stooooooooooop

Also I'm aware I have no idea about frame data for this game, I remember when I played this game back in school and thought Jiggs down B was useless

"THIS MOVE JUST PUTS JIGGLYPUFF TO SLEEP, WHAT A TERRIBLE MOVE"

but really can you guys discuss the issue in the thread title or even just Smash64 stuff, sort this personal thing out via PM or Skype or heck even in the social thread (i cannot guarentee the other members wont tell you to gtfo though)

itt melee mods, there really should be a backup mod on here,

 

[KuroganeHammer]

itt melee mods, there really should be a backup mod on here,

you're right

here, let me appoint novasmash as the new moderator.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

you're right

here, let me appoint novasmash as the new moderator.

well lookie here we have a jokester, maybe you do belong here. all ing aside, there are good posters here who are on often like aa and some othrs

 

[Shears]

@ KuroganeHammer is poison. This oppression must end. He is trolling, locking, and infracting impulsively and without consequence. He has invaded the 64 boards and has terrorized us. We the people of 64 cannot let this stand!

 

[NovaSmash]

you're right

here, let me appoint novasmash as the new moderator.

so funny i forgot to laugh

 

[clubbadubba]

I've completely lost track of who the real trolls are in this section.

"A wise man once told me don't argue with fools,
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who."

-Jay-Z, probably derived from a much wiser person.

Seriously the troll in the 64 section is too strong right now, and its far more than one person.