People complain about the three clones...

[Roxas215]

Lucina is just Easy mode Marth............... And Marth is already easy................

 

[Roxas215]

1. Wolf and Lucas are in no way clones. They have their own animations, their own models, their own rigs, their own particle effects, their own hitboxes, and especially their own playstyles. They have different normal moves, different specials. The only things they really share are final smashes and a few conceptual ties (for example Wolf's specials resemble Fox's but they aren't at all functionally the same).

2. If you are upset that original characters like ICs, Wolf, and Lucas were cut, then you can blame the addition of some of the newcomers for that.

3.


No.

I know they not clones!! I just worded it that way cause people were grouping them together. Which is why i said "justifiable clones"

 

[zephyrnereus]

at first I was hyped for Dark Pit and grossed out by Dr. Mario. now its the opposite. how can people hate the Doc? he's basically Melee Mario! no more useless FLUDD!

Dark Pit on the other hand is meh to me now. what could have been a completely original character was turned into a total clone. I mean, his portrait shows him using his signature staff! but he attacks with his bow? there are countless weapons that Sakurai could have used...

I just hope his custom moves are totally different... also, that custom movesets are ok by people in future local tournaments...

 

[FantasyBlade]

I've never had an issue with clones as long as they don't over do it, which they're not.

 

[Xavier :D]

I honestly don't care about clones. They just add more characters to the roster for me, which is great. But, I have a gripe with Dark Pit. If Alf is an alt for Olimar and The Koopalings for Bowser Jr, why can't Dark Pit be a costume? Ah well, just a nit-pick. Also adds another character for me. Also, Why couldn't Sakurai just squeeze ONE last character in there so we could the roster at 50?

 

[Moon Monkey]

No one should be OK with Dr. Mario, he's not even a clone, he's the same person.

True. But at at least he doesn't LOOK exactly the same as his counterpart. lol
Also i believe he has the Mario tornado from melee

But Dark Pit is just one lame character to me, he doesn't make or break it.

 

[Kevandre]

Yar, Doc is a better version of Mario. He's what Mario should be.

No opinion on Lucina. I like the character herself better than Marth, so there's that. I wish she was a bit more different. Like Roy. If she were like Roy, then 10/10 would main.

Pittoo.. Yeah, he could have been different but I've got to believe that he took next to no development time at all since even the model is pretty much the same cat with a recolor. Can't even be mad about it.

As to Lucas v Ness... People want Lucas to be like PM Lucas... I would accept that, I guess, though I definitely preferred Brawl Lucas to PM Lucas. I'd much rather have both Lucas AND Ness back and have Ness be the one that changed. Because Lucas's moveset is just better. The aerials and especially the smash attacks.. mmmmm girl. Good stuff. Ness's those things are rather bleh

 

[Tenchi Boom]

The only character I despise on this roster is Dark Pit due to him being a stupid biased character.

Other than that, this roster is God!! We have Sonic, Mega Man, Pac Man, Ness, Mario, Rosalina, Falcon, and a ton of others! Yeah Ridley or Mewtwo didn't make it in blah blah blah. No need to go calling this roster 'pathetic' and 'weak' like some ungrateful ****heads do because they're not in. Sad, sad people.

 

[Sonic Poke]

To me Smash could have lotta clones... But just don't cut non clones to put then...

 

[BeatNinja]

History repeats itself. I thought people would be used to having a handful of clones each game by now.

The only clone I'm legitimately angry about is Dark Pit, and that's only because he had massive potential to be original and unique, given Uprising's massive amount of weapons. They even advertise his staff in his character art, and he doesn't use it in any unique ways, aside from his FS.

 

[The Slayer]

I knew we would have an uninspired roster when I saw wii fit trainer.

I seriously don't mind opinions people being disappointed with certain aspect of the roster and give good reasons. But sometimes, I wonder if comments like these are all but serious. Sadly, all I can do for now is just put people behind them on ignore. If WFT lack originality, then clearly you didn't look at the couple of swordsmen and pretty boys/girls in this game. And even then, most of them generally play differently from each other. I just don't even know anymore...

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I'm all fine with the roster currently myself. The clones kinda look wierd in their own slot but rest assured it's easy to not remember them incase ya don't like them.

Lucina I wish was more unique. On the other hand she might just prove a nice substitute for my Marth-style play, and I get to customize her if I wish.

Doc... isn't too shabby at this point. I'm used him since Melee and even then, he seems once again a better Mario here all around. Doctornado is even back which is neat.

Pittoo though, I'm sure is objectively the most controversial clone in the entire series. He got in as a clone, but it kinda makes me cringe that while other characters were off ith their old FS-ses, Dark Pit is given a Zelda-style OHKO one, and his own victory theme.
For an edgier and more popular version of Pit, that's giving him too much fair credit outside of Sakurai's favoritism . Why didn't Doc or Lucina get their own Final Smashes? Heck, Falco must be lying now if he still keeps mentioning of preferring the air. And that's before getting to other clones with no different Final Smashes either.
On the flipside, he seems pretty identical to Pit. But I'd be lying if I didn't see him being most "loved" of the "Clone Trio" in means of dedication.

It's gonna make me miss the times when Sakurai and his dev teams used to make memorable and distinctive rival characters like Meta Knight. Him being similar to Kirby is one of his least remembered or shown traits (much like Samus being a girl.) Nowadays we just need to have Shadow The Hedgehog-knockoffs all around the block.

 

[Roko Jono]

People who dislike clones probably don't see the differences they have in their moveset and meta compared to their mirror. As long as their playstyle is different then I wouldn't really consider them clones.

No one understands the pain I have with Falcondorf... because... I love Falcondorf and don't want him any other way... His f-air and jab are king. Also, he has obese man run again which is a plus.

 

[Kevandre]

People who dislike clones probably don't see the differences they have in their moveset and meta compared to their mirror. As long as their playstyle is different then I wouldn't really consider them clones.

No one understands the pain I have with Falcondorf... because... I love Falcondorf and don't want him any other way... His f-air and jab are king. Also, he has obese man run again which is a plus.

The general consensus is that we don't want Falcondorf's moveset gone. But Ganondorf as a character deserves more than to be a clone. The most common thought it to bring in Black Shadow from F-Zero and give him Ganondorf's old moveset while providing a unique one for Ganondorf. Win-win.

 

[Roko Jono]

The general consensus is that we don't want Falcondorf's moveset gone. But Ganondorf as a character deserves more than to be a clone. The most common thought it to bring in Black Shadow from F-Zero and give him Ganondorf's old moveset while providing a unique one for Ganondorf. Win-win.

I like the idea of maybe toon ganondorf, he for sure can have his own moveset, and if they want, his 2 swords

 

[PK_Wonder]

The only ones I take issue with are Dark Pit and Dr. Mario. Dark Pit at least would have more sense as an alt costume. I love Lucina though, and I'd rather have Falco and Ganondorf as a clone than not at all.

That said, I still rate this roster a 9.0, it's the best one we've ever had. Yeah, I would have loved Mewtwo, K. Rool, or Ridley, but I think that 47/49 of the characters are completely deserving. There's two characters I don't like and at least 9 newcomers I LOVE (Villager, Mega Man, Shulk, Robin, Palutena, Duck Hunt, Pac-Man, Litle Mac, Lucina) , so those two clones won't keep me from giving the game itself a 10.0 should I feel it deserves it.

 

[Roko Jono]

I have been looking for Lucina info but am horrible at finding it. Anyone know if she really is a clone? As in she really has nothing new to the table (except the confirmed no-tipper)? That would be a little disappointing. Same with Dark Pit?

 

[iFezZz]

I feel like the clones aren't that bad. They just change how your moves work slightly, but that could have a big effect on their over all game play. there is only 3(besides ganon which no one is mad about?) and who cares? you have 49 more people to play.

 

[Cottoneyes]

I don't mind clones, but I'm thinking the real problem comes from the fact that we have to unlock most said clones.

This smash got an amazing starting roster off the bat and the majority of new comers and fan favorites are already unlocked.

When you have to go and unlock some characters to turn out for most of them to be more clones that it can come off a bit more disappointing than what we started with. Course I like most of the characters we got except Dark pit. He's just not my cup of tea.

 

[Joe73191]

What score would you give if you did this for melee?

Well I would have to compare it to its previous game being 64 so I would say:

plus 2 on roster, plus 3 on mechanics and plus 1 on move set.

 

[Yodude57]

Well I would have to compare it to its previous game being 64 so I would say:

plus 2 on roster, plus 3 on mechanics and plus 1 on move set.

Thx for replying really appreciate it and definetly agree with you in the mechanics part, while the mechanics weren't bad in 64, melee's was a huge improvement.

 

[Deathcarter]

Frankly, I'd rather have Dark Pit be an alt. I just draw the line at literal pallet swaps being considered their own distinct character. Sure he didn't take much development time, but it just bugs me that a complete knock-off like him can be his own character.

Dr. Mario also bugs me but at least he has a proven moveset + is friggin' Mario and while Lucina's the cloniest of the clones she's at least she's iconic in regards to Fire Emblem & had a newcomer trailer to establish her plus we already dealt with a Marth clone before. Dark Pit's not even that notable in Kid Icarus Uprising (he's like sixth in importance after Pit, Palutena, Hades, Viridi, and Medusa) and Pit's nowhere near popular enough to get away with having a outright knock-off like Mario & Link (especially when they themselves don't completely get away with it either).

 

[Enigma14]

I think the thing that gets me (and if I am recalling correctly) Sakurai said hes gonne reduce the number of clones this time around.

Melee had 4
Brawl had 3?
Then he goes and doubles it?!

Lucina was a last minute addition, she's her own character and a main character in her one game that I played. I like her, but in her own game (Mage Lucina for life!).

Doc was a veteran and I mained him but I didn't want him to return.

Dark Pit is a waste because Pit could have been given the Palutena and Mii treatment with having more specials instead of an extended color swap and FS. I GET THAT HE WAS AN ADDITION THAT WAS ADDED TO MAKE THE ROSTER BIGGER DESPITE NOT TAKING UP A SLOT; THUS LAST ADDITION BUT THE TIME AND RESOURCES FOR HIM COULD HAVE GONE ELSEWHERE. Not sure where but elsewhere.

OK, if they made him vastly different with weapons from his game, then I would have like him. Give him his staff but not a Palutena clone.

Toon Link, I didn't want to return. Hes my favorite Link but no, just no.

Falco. I prefer Wolf just because different animations. Really wish they dropped Falco and gave his assets to Fox like his old stun blaster.

Ganondorf actually uses his sword now! All he needs is his magic for some variety but he can keep the punches, I like his shock punch.

 

[Curious Villager]

Sakurai never said anything about reducing or removing clone characters. (As far as I know at least, and if he did, I'd like to see a source of it)

Just that he's more or less aiming to include more characters with more unique abilities and things that make them stand out and all. However, I think his definition of "unique" may differ a bit from what the fanbase considers to be "unique" and all. And if he has some extra time to include a few clones/semi clones but not enough for a fully unique character, then he may do so too.

 

[j3lly]

The issue I had with clones is that Brawl made a concentrated effort to individualize each clone. Falco, Wolf, Lucas, Ganon, etc. all were distinct enough to warrant separate character slots. Lucina, Dr. Mario (minus his down special) and Dark Pit (ugh) are straight up clones we haven't seen since Melee.

Unless Sakurai rushed the game (for the third straight installment mind you) I don't understand why characters like Wolf and Lucas had to be cut while characters like Ike stayed. And that whole "Hey, we copy and pasted a character so you can have more!" viewpoint is ridiculous.

With all that being said, it's still a better roster than we've been given in the past.

 

[Evello]

The clones are fine. They're total bonuses. Icing on the delicious 48 character cake.

I actually kinda wish we had more clones. Alph seems a little left out, since I assume he, Lucina, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit all started as alt costumes together before the other 3 got promoted. Yes, he still has the Koopalings for costume company, but a clone Alph would have been a neat way to give Pikmin some more easy representation (coming from a guy who doesn't even play Pikmin). Maybe make Rock Pikmin an altered form of Purple Pikmin, and/or switch up the order/frequency of the Pikmin he draws. There would be a ton of ways to freshen Alph up without inventing any new animations at all.

Still, I'm happy with the 3 clones we got. I liked Pit in Brawl, so I'm excited to scope out which of Pit and Dark Pit I like better this time. I also used Marth a fair amount, so I'll check out Lucina for some variety.

 

[Tino]

Meh, I really don't care if the roster has some clones or not, it doesn't stop my excitement I have for the games. Heck, as long as I have my favorite characters like Ike, Mega Man and Rosalina (who was my most wanted newcomer), I'm completely satisfied.

And there's absolutely no such thing as a "wasted slot" as some are claiming.

 

[Gidy]

Ugh. Guys can we get over this. It's not like they took anyones spot. Sakurai chose them to be in the game. They didn't take much work to do either. I'd rather have clones over nothing.

 

[Frostwraith]

Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina are better now as clones than they would be as alts because they actually bring something to the gameplay.

They were going to be in the game anyway as alts, so between being a purely aesthetic change and being a variation of an existing character, what is the one that adds to the game more?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina are better now as clones than they would be as alts because they actually bring something to the gameplay.

They were going to be in the game anyway as alts, so between being a purely aesthetic change and being a variation of an existing character, what is the one that adds to the game more?

I would honestly prefer they stay costumes.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Reasons why I don't like Doc and Toon Link:
They are Mario and Link. They're literally the same characters under a different name. No, being "Toon" or being smaller, younger or in a different style does not make Toon (adjective) Link, not Link. At that point you're saying Young Link isn't Link.

Reasons why I don't like Dark Pit and Lucina:

They didn't go very far to make him different from Pit at all. That's my problem here. I'd be fine with a "different" Pit, since he's apparently not just Pit, if he wasn't almost identical to Pit (His FS is a little disappointing too, but that's just me). This also goes for Lucina; great, she's a different character, good! ...But why is her moveset identical to Marth's to the average player. Her Final Smash is even the same.

These kinds of decisions are why I cannot believe things like this still happen. But again, this is all my opinion.

Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina are better now as clones than they would be as alts because they actually bring something to the gameplay.

Talking unbiased here? The only thing Lucina "brings" is a nerfed form of Marth, whom lacks tippers. Without tippers she basically doesn't do anything more than Marth does. She does less.

Dark Pit iirc has the same interactions, but uses different AESTHETIC articles (his weapons). That does not change gameplay.

Doc is the only one who actually has something completely different, and it's only his downB. (iirc, his dair might be different but I can't remember)

I'm not saying these out of spite, I'm saying these as facts.

 

[Cpt.]

I guess if clone characters make a roster terrible, then Falco's a horrible character and melee sucked more than anything else, huh? :Kappa:

No, but seriously, I think people are totally WAY overblowing this roster. I love it and I think it's great, and I'm betting the clones are going to show themselves as different enough in play style soon

I think it's a great roster, but the fact that its only 49 characters with three of those characters being clones makes it 46 character. Which isn't very much when most of us were expecting at least 50. The clones (besides Lucina) seem like they have maybe one unique move each so....

I was just hoping for more. I mean if they didn't have enough time to put in 50+ characters, they could have at least made all the ones in the game unique.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think it's a great roster, but the fact that its only 49 characters with three of those characters being clones makes it 46 character. Which isn't very much when most of us were expecting at least 50. The clones (besides Lucina) seem like they have maybe one unique move each so....

I was just hoping for more. I mean if they didn't have enough time to put in 50+ characters, they could have at least made all the ones in the game unique.

In addition, only 4 of the unlockable fighters are newcomers, and 2 of those unlockable newcomers are clones. (Lucina and Dark Pit.) Dr. Mario is also an unlockable clone but he's a veteran. It feels a bit like a slap in the face when there are literally only 2 "Challenger Approaching" screens that don't herald a veteran or an already-existing character gussied up in a different outfit.

I think it have gone over better if a bigger portion of the newcomers, especially the hype ones like Shulk, were also unlockable to balance out the ratios a bit.

Reasons why I don't like Doc and Toon Link:
They are Mario and Link. They're literally the same characters under a different name. No, being "Toon" or being smaller, younger or in a different style does not make Toon (adjective) Link, not Link. At that point you're saying Young Link isn't Link.

Reasons why I don't like Dark Pit and Lucina:

They didn't go very far to make him different from Pit at all. That's my problem here. I'd be fine with a "different" Pit, since he's apparently not just Pit, if he wasn't almost identical to Pit. This also goes for Lucina; great, she's a different character, good! ...But why is her moveset identical to Marth's to the average player. Her Final Smash is even the same.

These kinds of decisions are why I cannot believe things like this still happen. But again, this is all my opinion.

I agree with this 100%, but how do you feel about Samus/Zero Suit Samus? I find myself mildly irritated by their separation on the roster, but ZSS's moveset isn't even slightly a copy of anyone else's so I'm generally willing to let it slide for the sake of moveset variety. What do you think?

Talking unbiased here? The only thing Lucina "brings" is a nerfed form of Marth, whom lacks tippers. Without tippers she basically doesn't do anything more than Marth does. She does less.

Dark Pit iirc has the same interactions, but uses different AESTHETIC articles (his weapons). That does not change gameplay.

Doc is the only one who actually has something completely different, and it's only his downB. (iirc, his dair might be different but I can't remember)

I'm not saying these out of spite, I'm saying these as facts.

I don't like Dr. Mario as a fighter either (along with Lucina and Dark Pit) because they are almost literally character buffs/nerfs that were given their own slot on the CSS. Lucina I can (barely) accept because removing tippers is admittedly a major mechanical difference, although I still don't see the point of her inclusion, but why not just take Doc/Dark Pit and transplant the superior parts of their moveset to Mario/Pit?

It's enough to make me think there's some cultural reason that Japan seems to love their moveset clones so much.

 

[Wyntir]

Clones don't bother me one bit honestly. I mean more characters, more fun. I love Wolf. I'm sure DLC will arrive but IC's... grab spammers ... so away with them.

Now this is what I think about all of these cry babies who whine about the clones.

 

[GangsterPuff]

Here's the problem, smash 4 had a lot less newcomers than the two previous games had, and the clones are the exact same as their counterpart. Unlike in Brawl, all the clones actually have unique movesets. Also, one-third of the newcomers are characters most of us don't care about, and most the characters have repetitive moveset. there are so many things removed from brawl, and so less added, you can just call this a big smash DLC instead of a brand new smash game.

 

[Evello]

I would honestly prefer they stay costumes.

... Why? It's literally a question of if you want more or less variety and you're choosing less. I can't fathom why. There is literally no downside to the clones.

I mean, obviously unique characters would be better, but that was never an option. Clones are quick to make, so the options are clones or nothing.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

... Why? It's literally a question of if you want more or less variety and you're choosing less. I can't fathom why. There is literally no downside to the clones.

I mean, obviously unique characters would be better, but that was never an option. Clones are quick to make, so the options are clones or nothing.

(I keep hitting the Like button instead of Reply. Moving on...)

The reason I am against clones is because they are literally moveset buffs/nerfs given their own character slot. Why not just consolidate the two so they have the best properties of both and make the clone an alt costume?

And yes, given the choice of clones or nothing, I would pick nothing.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

The thing that we can't possibly know right now is how much effort went into people like Dark Pit and Lucina. Dark Pit may not have even needed a new model. Lucina might have only needed some changes to Marth's, but the process of modeling and rigging would still be great.

If they spent as many resources on Lucina as they did on everyone else in the game, that's just stupid in my mind. I'm sorry, but that means instead of spending all of that to come up with something like Duck Hunt Dog (completely new, brings a ton to the table and is a completely different character), they just remade Marth with a new model and voice, which is essentially what Lucina is.

Why wasn't Male Wii Fit Trainer made into an entirely new character at that point?

Though in reality, Lucina and Dark Pit are probably the only true exceptions to all of this honestly. He's the only one who is ACTUALLY a separate entity. Everyone else, including Zero Suit Samus, are just the same character.

We shouldn't even need to have conversations like this about character selection rosters in the first place in my opinion. If this happens there's a problem. Remember, Sakurai explicitly stated that no characters like them would exist in Smash 4. If we STILL got Dark Pit, Lucina and Doc after that, what are Sakurai's definitions of a "clone"?

 

[GoddessOfLamps]

People are just stressed out that their favourite characters didn't make it in and they blame the clone characters because of it (even though we all know they didn't take any 'slots'). When smash 5 launches people will be saying: "I can't believe Sakurai cut Lucina, the game is ruined now"

 

[StarBot]

So there truly is no argument for the three clones now. They could have been alts, and Mario Tornado and what not could have been custom moves.

But you are not allow to use custom moves in online and tournaments... If custom moves are allow...