People complain about the three clones...

[Hoser]

I think this is the best roster Smash has given us so far. I cannot wait to play as Robin, Megaman, Ike, Du Ckhunt, Palutena, and many others.

 

[Fire Tactician]

I knew we would have an uninspired roster when I saw wii fit trainer.

But she was one of the most inspired characters there is. Sakurai built her fighting style around all the things that she did in her home game. He took a non-fighting character from a massively successful/popular game and made her work. If we were told that there'd be a yoga instructor in Smash Bros, nobody would care. However, the fact that she has a solid fanbase is proof enough that she was done well. She might not be your cup of tea, but you can't take her fans' appreciation for her away.

It's not a one-to-one trade. Poofing away the little work that was put into Dark Pit and Lucina wouldn't make Lucas magically appear. They'd need to build him completely from scratch. It's not a simple copy-paste process- that would completely ruin all the other work he put into the rest of the roster. Balance is important in a game like this and a new character like Lucas would create hundreds of potential problems that would need to fixed in the debugging process.

 

[Morbi]

This.

And guess and what? I still like the roster overall, but I'm not going to be a sycophant and pretend its not something I don't take issue with. I can deal with it though since everything else is great.

It would be more tolerate able if all the clones were like Wolf and Dr Mario at least.

Are you arbitrarily insinuating that people who do not take issue with the roster are sycophants?

 

[Iron Maw]

Well, I'm not being a sycophant or pretending, because I'm frankly quite happy with the clones we have... other than G-dorf. Still wish he actually had his own moveset, but other than him ((Who I'll probably play anyway because he was a melee main)) I'm quite excited for these clones.

I'm mainly speaking for myself, especially since i've seen posts saying how people who don't like them should be grateful for their inclusion, which is missing the point. It's all fine and dandy if like them, but the otherside has an understandable grievance too. i'm simply being honest.

 

[Ffamran]

Clones are love, clones are life. Anti-Clone people will descend to clone hell where they get tortured by clones.

Tortured by Lucina clones? That's kind of kinky.

Whatever, bad roster or not, only one thing matters: fun. I'll have fun no matter who gets in or who doesn't! That is my gaming creed! Believe it!

 

[Morbi]

Tortured by Lucina clones? That's kind of kinky.

Whatever, bad roster or not, only one thing matters: fun. I'll have fun no matter who gets in or who doesn't! That is my gaming creed! Believe it!

It is all good fun until Ganondorf shows up and Lucina leaves the room.

On this fun point, clones are the most fun characters to me. So their inclusions were important to me. In fact, I would probably complain if we did not get a couple of clones.

 

[Nintendotard]

I don't mind clones, I just don't like Dark Pit.

/thread

 

[Davybot]

I just thought up of an interesting clone sorta ala the Doc.
You know how Wario's move set is mostly based off Warioware?
They could totally take his classic design alt and make a completely new character with Wario Land moves; the shoulder charge, Shake it throws, Land power ups like the jet, dragon, zombie, vampire....man now I'm kinda disappointed that's not a thing.....

 

[DougX]

Man, now I kind of want Dr. Luigi too... Always next time I suppose. Or future mods whenever people can start doing those. x3

The only one of the clones I really care about is Dr. Mario... Cause IT'S FREAKING DR. MARIO! Nuff said.

 

[Fire Tactician]

Man, now I kind of want Dr. Luigi too... Always next time I suppose. Or future mods whenever people can start doing those. x3

The only one of the clones I really care about is Dr. Mario... Cause IT'S FREAKING DR. MARIO! Nuff said.

I'm sorry, but the very first mod of this game has to be Chrom... he deserves it!

 

[TriMaxTime]

I think in time people will come to realize it's a great roster. But everyone's just feeling salty at the moment due to their favorite characters being cut and characters like Dark Pit and Dr. Mario being in (which, again, comes to 2/49 characters). So if you see people being super butthurt, just give them space and time. If DLC or Wii U/3DS exclusive connectivity characters happen, great! But until we know for sure, we'll have to give people some time to wash off their salt.

 

[DougX]

I'm sorry, but the very first mod of this game has to be Chrom... he deserves it!

Understandable... That way he can stop crying on the floor... He's been at it since like July and Ike won't stop feeling sympathy for him.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree and think that some people are getting a little bit too upset about this whole thing. Yeah, there are about 6 clones, but in a roster of 49 characters, that really isn't a big deal. There are so many other characters that we have at our disposal and not everyone is going to make it in, so I think we should be happy with what we got, I love the roster.

This x9000. I agree with you, the roster looks great.

 

[Quetzal77]

Tbh my problem with the clones is that they're just really boring...

I mean, there's Dr Mario who is just Mario with pills. There's Dark Pit who is literally a darker Pit (although I've warmed up to him). Then there's Lucina who gets very little to differentiate her from Marth compared to the other two.

If I could just swap these three out, and keeping with these three franchises, I would've prioritized Roy, Medusa (based on Palutena), and Daisy (based on Peach), while giving Mario his tornado back and keeping Marth closer to his old play style. Roy is a popular veteran and would've represented the GBA Fire Emblems, the first to make it out of Japan. Medusa is the original Kid Icarus villain, and could've "taken over" for Wolf as one of the few bad guys. And Daisy is fairly popular (even though I dislike her), and frankly I'm surprised she wasn't even considered for a full swap this time. I think these are all more interesting characters than the three we got.

It is what it is though, these are just my thoughts.

 

[Ffamran]

It is all good fun until Ganondorf shows up and Lucina leaves the room.

On this fun point, clones are the most fun characters to me. So their inclusions were important to me. In fact, I would probably complain if we did not get a couple of clones.

Don't ruin my fantasies...

I just thought up of an interesting clone sorta ala the Doc.
You know how Wario's move set is mostly based off Warioware?
They could totally take his classic design alt and make a completely new character with Wario Land moves; the shoulder charge, Shake it throws, Land power ups like the jet, dragon, zombie, vampire....man now I'm kinda disappointed that's not a thing.....

Because of how character selection is set up or because of the 3DS's small screen or even because of both system's hardware limitations, I don't think that's possible for now, maybe later.

What do I mean? I mean a way to select versions of a character. So, a Warioware Wario and Wario Land Wario are the "same" character, but you can choose which style to play as. Mario would have Dr. Mario and perhaps Paper Mario, but I think Paper Mario has enough merit to be his own character. Toon Link could act as the "child" Links and we'd have him, Majora's Mask Link, and A Link to the Past/A Link Between Worlds Link - Classic Link? Toon Link would have his traits from his games, Majora's Mask Link would be able to quick change for Specials, like Up Special has him switch any fly as Deku Link while Down Special has him use Mikau's electricity barrier. Classic Link would use stuff like the Fire Rod, Ice Rod, etc.

Not all characters will have this, but some characters will, like Toon Zelda and Zelda, Toon Ganon and Ganondorf, Adventures Krystal and Assault Krystal, Megaman and Megaman X, or even Charizard X and Y - different move sets that compliment their Mega forms.

Heck, Samus could have three and one of them isn't her if development really needed to. Fusion Suit Samus would be faster, but more frail compared to regular Samus and stronger and slower than Zero Suit Samus who in her own right is a unique character. Dark Samus or even a PED, corrupted Samus would have different effects and be much more aggressive in play-style.

That way, slots won't be "wasted". The issue is how to implement this feature and how much of a strain it would take on hardware since it wouldn't just be one character and one slot anymore for some.

 

[Fire Tactician]

Understandable... That way he can stop crying on the floor... He's been at it since like July and Ike won't stop feeling sympathy for him.

That's why he wears Chrom's colors.

I love that Chrom icon for the profile. It makes me all warm and fuzzy inside

 

[Inurian]

Tbh my problem with the clones is that they're just really boring...

I mean, there's Dr Mario who is just Mario with pills. There's Dark Pit who is literally a darker Pit (although I've warmed up to him). Then there's Lucina who gets very little to differentiate her from Marth compared to the other two.

If I could just swap these three out, and keeping with these three franchises, I would've prioritized Roy, Medusa (based on Palutena), and Daisy (based on Peach), while giving Mario his tornado back and keeping Marth closer to his old play style. Roy is a popular veteran and would've represented the GBA Fire Emblems, the first to make it out of Japan. Medusa is the original Kid Icarus villain, and could've "taken over" for Wolf as one of the few bad guys. And Daisy is fairly popular (even though I dislike her), and frankly I'm surprised she wasn't even considered for a full swap this time. I think these are all more interesting characters than the three we got.

It is what it is though, these are just my thoughts.

The first to make it out of Japan was Eliwood though.. on that note, I would not be opposed to hector being in smash...

 

[Ffamran]

The first to make it out of Japan was Eliwood though.. on that note, I would not be opposed to hector being in smash...

No kidding, Hector's got an axe. A mother-freaking axe! Behold! The glory that is Hector!

 

[Fire Tactician]

No kidding, Hector's got an axe. A mother-freaking axe! Behold! The glory that is Hector!

I really wish that I could argue that... but I don't think it's possible...

 

[Ffamran]

I really wish that I could argue that... but I don't think it's possible...

The beard. Kneel and submit to his marvelous beard.

Anyway, Hector, Ephraim, or even Greil would bring a new flair considering they use weapons not featured in SSB.

 

[Raijinken]

Dr. Mario has Tornado instead of the useless super soaker. That alone justifies clones completely, in my book.

Wish they'd been slightly differentiated like that (for instance, give Pitoo either Brawl Pit moves or a unique special or something), but I'd far prefer a clone roster than a smaller roster.

Though it still bothers me how they're separate from their teams and Yoshi cuts the Mario line.

 

[KurashiDragon]

IMO I don't mind the clones at all. In this literation of smash there are so many characters that I wanna try out that I literally can't pick a main right out of the gate. Pikachu, Greninja, Robin, Palutena, Villager, Rosalina, Mario, Ness, Game & Watch, Pac Man, Megaman, Charizard, Ike, Bowser, Toon Link, Pit, Mii Brawler, and Shulk....... oh and Lucina cause the lack of a sweet spot is honestly kind of interesting to me. There are so many awesome characters that I wanna try out. The roster is literally the best it's ever been.

 

[Fire Tactician]

The beard. Kneel and submit to his marvelous beard.

Anyway, Hector, Ephraim, or even Greil would bring a new flair considering they use weapons not featured in SSB.

I'm still picking a god and praying for Frederick... Assist trophy?

 

[Quetzal77]

Haha, obviously I would love Hector or even Lyn instead! But I was trying to be realistic and since Roy was already a Marth clone once it would've made sense to bring him back.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Most clones make sense. It makes sense that Fox and Falco would have similar movesets, that Lucina and Marth would share a moveset, it makes sense for Mario and Luigi, Link and Toon Link...

Dr. Mario could have had falco-esque variety. Same with Dark Pit.

And Falcondorf has puzzled me for thirteen years.

Still, I like clones. They give you more options with the same/similar moveset. Different properties, different physics, different mechanics.

Clones are really only shallow in regards to movesets and animations. There is definitely some variety to appreciate when it comes to the Brawl-era clones.

They could have done better, but they still did well. I've been satisfied since 64 Luigi. Still am.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm still picking a god and praying for Frederick... Assist trophy?

Never. Hector and Frederick are too awesome to be ATs.

Most clones make sense. It makes sense that Fox and Falco would have similar movesets, that Lucina and Marth would share a moveset, it makes sense for Mario and Luigi, Link and Toon Link...

Dr. Mario could have had falco-esque variety. Same with Dark Pit.

And Falcondorf has puzzled me for thirteen years.

Still, I like clones. They give you more options with the same/similar moveset. Different properties, different physics, different mechanics.

Clones are really only shallow in regards to movesets and animations. There is some variety to appreciate when it comes to the Brawl-era clones.

They could have done better, but they still did well. I've been satisfied since 64 Luigi. Still am.

I'd argue Lucina's portrayal since Awakening and Path of Radiance and Radiant shows more than past Fire Emblems did on character's fighting styles. This is why we know Ike's brutal, but simple style aside from mentions from characters. Hell, she could have had her Awakening battle stance.

I agree on Falcondorf, though. It does give Ganondorf that feeling of he's powerful, but most people associate Ganondorf with magic or swords. Supposedly, Ganondorf wasn't supposed to be a clone as his Melee victory animations were supposedly leftovers from a sword-wielding Ganondorf based on the SpaceWorld 2000 tech demo of Link and Ganondorf fighting.

There's also the whole Wolf was supposed to be in Melee, but Falco go in because Wolf looked too similar to Fox.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Never. Hector and Frederick are too awesome to be ATs.


I'd argue Lucina's portrayal since Awakening and Path of Radiance and Radiant shows more than past Fire Emblems did on character's fighting styles. This is why we know Ike's brutal, but simple style aside from mentions from characters. Hell, she could have had her Awakening battle stance.

I agree on Falcondorf, though. It does give Ganondorf that feeling of he's powerful, but most people associate Ganondorf with magic or swords. Supposedly, Ganondorf wasn't supposed to be a clone as his Melee victory animations were supposedly leftovers from a sword-wielding Ganondorf based on the SpaceWorld 2000 tech demo of Link and Ganondorf fighting.

There's also the whole Wolf was supposed to be in Melee, but Falco go in because Wolf looked too similar to Fox.

I'm fine with Lucina as she is here but the stance could have only been beneficial. It's a shame they didn't include it.

Yeah, I know. The Melee challenger approaching screen for ganondorf has a sillhouete of him with a sword which still pisses me off to this day, lol.

I really don't mind it though. I suppose I don't attach myself to my vision of what the roster should be and how a certain character should play. Melee ganondorf, although his moveset makes no canonical sense, is one of my most favorite characters to play. Work the tech skills and he becomes an agile powerhouse :D The satisfying gameplay really trumps all of my gripes.

 

[RetroBro]

I guess if clone characters make a roster terrible, then Falco's a horrible character and melee sucked more than anything else, huh? :Kappa:

No, but seriously, I think people are totally WAY overblowing this roster. I love it and I think it's great, and I'm betting the clones are going to show themselves as different enough in play style soon

Oh look everyone, the apologists are coming.

 

[DairunCates]

I'm mainly speaking for myself, especially since i've seen posts saying how people who don't like them should be grateful for their inclusion, which is missing the point. It's all fine and dandy if like them, but the otherside has an understandable grievance too. i'm simply being honest.

I think the main problem is that this argument usually comes with fallacy that clones "took up a slot" instead of being extra work that's added throughout a project when people can't or don't have the time to work on a full character. Clone characters are the equivalent to "Hey. I wrote some jokes while waiting for my article to get edited and we have room to squeeze it into our church newsletter." or "Hey guys. I made this model spaceship while you guys were finishing up your part of the research on the Apollo landing. Want to bring it to the presentation for flavor?" You can definitely argue that their inclusion is a bit tacky, but most people aren't gonna argue for the removal of extra content unless it's incredibly low quality and brings less than nothing to the table...

Which, considering that Dark Pit seems to be a character for helping Brawl Pit players (while still evolving Pit), Dr. Mario is a character for Melee players that hate the flood, and Lucina is a character for people that would prefer that Marth lost most of his knock-back power instead of his relative speed, I think it's hard to argue that they don't have A reason for being in the roster. At the very least, I haven't heard a convincing argument for why their inclusion actually makes the game worse.

Now, it IS true that some games DON'T handle clones this way. The reason Street Fighter has 10 clones of Ryu is actually different, but that's a big long discussion for another time. Suffice it to say, the clones included here don't really fit the MO for that purpose. So, I doubt it's related.

 

[Ellipsis]

Oh look everyone, the apologists are coming.

How dare people like things.

 

[JUr]

The roster is great and I don't have problems with clones, well, Lucina will be my main

Tink, Falco and Ganondorf are judged already (yes, right?), Dr Mario has the tornado and I didn't see enough footage of Dark Pit

By te way, I really really hate when people said 'No! Lucina's a Marth clone, give back Roy our boy!', congruence please... u.u

 

[Ffamran]

The roster is great and I don't have problems with clones, well, Lucina will be my main

Tink, Falco and Ganondorf are judged already (yes, right?), Dr Mario has the tornado and I didn't see enough footage of Dark Pit

By te way, I really really hate when people said 'No! Lucina's a Marth clone, give back Roy our boy!', congruence please... u.u

Roy's "Fire Marth" and Lucina's "Actually a Girl Marth". The sexism is real...

Well, there's the whole Wolf's a rip-off clone despite Falco's existence people use. People are people, I guess.

Wait, do people actually call Toon Link: Tink? Great, now all I see is a scantily-clad fairy with blonde hair... OH HYLIA! MY EYES! STOP IMAGINING NOW!

 

[AidanTheGreat]

I think this is the best roster Smash has given us so far. I cannot wait to play as Robin, Megaman, Ike, Du Ckhunt, Palutena, and many others.

Du Ckhunt is my favorite.

 

[Kevandre]

I generally don't have problems with clones. Doc, Lucina and Dark Pit all make sense to be a clone.

Ganondorf doesn't

 

[Ffamran]

I generally don't have problems with clones. Doc, Lucina and Dark Pit all make sense to be a clone.

Ganondorf doesn't

Once again, I'd argue that Lucina shouldn't be a clone and Pittoo could have used Pit's other weapons in Uprising, but that's the umpteenth time I would have argued that.

 

[RetroBro]

How dare people like things.

Eh, I don't really mind the roster that much. I find it a bit underwhelming considering there were really only 4 hidden unknown characters in the end, 2 of which were lackluster, whilst cutting 6 veterans. Seemed pretty steep.

Regardless of my opinion: How dare people dislike things, same coin different side.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

Im 95% sure that people ranted "Wolf, another Fox clone with the same Final Smash?! Thanks a lot Sakurai worst roster evur!!!".
And now we are sad to see him go.
And don't get me wrong, I do believe the Doc and Dark Pit look dumb for clone standards (which were risen in Brawl) I understand why they were added and I'd rather have them than not have them at all. Just let people vent their frustrations. Most will calm when they get to play with them.

 

[Banjodorf]

People are forgetting there are 45 other unique characters and even if we cut the 6 clones we would only get one unique character in return.

Honestly. People don't seem to remember how in Melee we got 5 clones, which Sakurai basically said would've meant 5 clones or 1 unique character.

Well, there goes 1/5 of Melee's roster and alot of fan favorites.

Honestly, just look at Dark Pit, Lucina and Doc as extras. That's exactly what they are. Just look at their placement on the CSS.

Edit: Also yes, excellent point. "Another Starfox character with a reflector, blaster and illusion? God damn it Sakurai."

And now look where we are. We got a ton of extremely unique characters that are going to make for a very interesting metagame, and the game and characters are looking generally solid. 3 clones that I guarantee had nothing to do with K. Mewdley not getting in are not going to reuin the game.

 

[TheDMonroeShow]

Once again, I'd argue that Lucina shouldn't be a clone and Pittoo could have used Pit's other weapons in Uprising, but that's the umpteenth time I would have argued that.

This is my personal problem with the clones,(except Dr Mario) the fact that they have potential to be their own characters but now will most likely be stuck as clones like whats happened to gannondorf.

I think Dr Mario actually differences himself enough from Mario ironically since he's the only one who technically still the same character. I kind of wish pitto got pit's brawl moveset or something but at least it seems like he's using different weapons with the exception of his down b. Lucina seems to have it worse of the new clones though with virtually nothing different.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

My issue with clones, especially ones like Dr. Mario and Dark Pit, is that their entire existence is supposed to be justified by "character X with different knockback properties Y on moves Z." Generally, one or the other turns out superior, and the other falls by the wayside. I would much rather see the superior moveset transplanted to the original character (either in whole or piecemeal) and the clone get turned into an alternate costume.

Now, it IS true that some games DON'T handle clones this way. The reason Street Fighter has 10 clones of Ryu is actually different, but that's a big long discussion for another time. Suffice it to say, the clones included here don't really fit the MO for that purpose. So, I doubt it's related.

I'd be interested in learning about why SF has the bajillion Ryu clones, actually.