People complain about the three clones...

[simpleglitch]

Seriously has nobody here been watching the streams!?

Lucina is faster in both movement and attack and she's lighter so her jump and up B are slightly higher and the majority of attacks auto cancel giving her a much better air game in contrast to Marth who has lag on a lot of moves and all streamers are pretty much in agreement that Lucina is the better character compared to Marth.

Doc. Is the most different of the three since he has his melee moveset compared to Mario who has his moveset from brawl so three of their moves different so.trying to say that he's a copy and paste is the same as saying that to Luigi and is just ridiculous.

Dark Pit while the most similar of the 3 has his playstyle closer to brawl Pit since Pit has had a lot of changes in this game.

So all of you saying these characters should have been alts are nothing but Blind haters

Although I agree without on the points of the clones (though I think you may be overstating Lucina a bit...), I would have to say calling people "Blind Haters" isn't a good way to promote civil discussion. It was a bit of a roller-coaster ride for some folks this week and many people's favorite characters didn't make it to the final roaster.

 

[Aogami]

@ HugoBoss a difference in opion of simply saying you don't like the character is no problem at all .

What makes people haters is the fact of saying they'r identical copy pastes when they're not and that they shouldn't be in the game because they can't get it through their skulls that they AREN'T the reason why their precious Mewtwo, Ridley or any other character aren't in the game

 

[HugoBoss]

I'm younger than most of you

Forming your own personal opinion and not "worshipping" Sakurai's doesn't make you stupid.
That being said, Brawl had 30+ UNIQUE characters. No clones. This game looks like a step back from Brawl in terms of the roster.I don't "hate" clones, but I believe that the time they put into making clones that almost no one appreciates could have been used for more important matters. If Sakurai wanted this to be the best character game, he should have put more emphasis on each individual character first and worry about roster size later

"@HugoBoss a difference in opion of simply saying you don't like the character is no problem at all .

What makes people haters is the fact of saying they'r identical copy pastes when they're not and that they shouldn't be in the game because they can't get it through their skulls that they aren't the reason"

Well, people have to give reasons to their opinions or else they won't be taken seriously. They need to back up that opinion. They would be haters is they had no reason to hate the clones but still hate them regardless. The "Haters" reasonings for their dislike of clones is more then just that, and honestly I've haven't seen many posts about the clones being identical copy pastes but rather A being a waste of potential.

 

[Shog]

I looked in the thread and I liked the post most which basically says: "Dark Pit leaves a bad taste because a franchise with 3 games has 3 people in it, Doktor Mario is really dumb because he might make normal Mario irrelevant and last but not least, Lucina is literally a nerfed Marth/could have a different weapon."

Just want to say that I am salty about D.Pit most. I mean did someone see Assist Trophy from Dark Samus? That could have been special moves...and a Dark Samus Clone would be better than D.Pits one.

Special Note: Dark Pit wouldn't be that bad in my opinion if his changes were like "Melee Falco compared to Melee Fox" instead of a Marth/Lucina situation

 

[LucidDreamGod]

I personally wouldn't mind if they threw quite a few more clones in there. People are always getting all salty that their character of choice didn't get in. I mean let's face it, it's not all about the move sets for everyone. That way we get two characters with one move set. And nobody tell me that just one character is better.

 

[MBakhsh]

Complaining about clones is basically complaining about content being added to the game.

 

[HugoBoss]

Complaining about clones is basically complaining about content being added to the game.

That said "content" could have been used for greater purposes.

 

[MBakhsh]

That said "content" could have been used for greater purposes.

Like adding a quarter of an assist trophy, or maybe even a trophy or two! Too bad all we got was three variations on other characters' playstyles that deepen the game and give people more options for how they want to play the game.

What a shame.

 

[HugoBoss]

Like adding a quarter of an assist trophy, or maybe even a trophy or two! Too bad all we got was three variations on other characters' playstyles that deepen the game and give people more options for how they want to play the game.

What a shame.

Or balancing the game even more(Dat Villager)
Or possibly adding one or two more returning stages
Or adding more music choices
Or adding online to Smash Run
Or improving online overall
Or changing Ganondorf so he would be less of a clone
Or giving Falco an arwing for his FS
Or giving everyone alternate costumes
Or more palette swaps
Or giving Sheik a new FS
Or giving Toon Link a new FS
Or giving (insert name) a good FS
Or adding more items
Or adding more alternate costumes
Or having one unique semi-clone instead of three clones
Or fix the Ice Climbers
Or add an intro
Or more customization options
Or perfect the current roster then add even more clones as Free DLC
Or fix the Blast Zone
Or overall improving many aspects of the game as possible before having fan-service/roster padding.

What a shame indeed. I doubt that three clones would equal 1/4 of an assist trophy but it probably wouldn't equal my list too.

 

[MBakhsh]

Or balancing the game even more(Dat Villager)
Or possibly adding one or two more returning stages
Or adding more music choices
Or adding online to Smash Run
Or improving online overall
Or changing Ganondorf so he would be less of a clone
Or giving Falco an arwing for his FS
Or giving everyone alternate costumes
Or more palette swaps
Or giving Sheik a new FS
Or giving Toon Link a new FS
Or giving (insert name) a good FS
Or adding more items
Or adding more alternate costumes
Or having one unique semi-clone instead of three clones
Or fix the Ice Climbers
Or add an intro
Or more customization options
Or perfect the current roster then add even more clones as Free DLC
Or fix the Blast Zone
Or overall improving many aspects of the game as possible before having fan-service/roster padding.

What a shame indeed. I doubt that three clones would equal 1/4 of an assist trophy but it probably wouldn't equal my list too.

Every single one of those things would take at least 10 times as much time as copy/paste, change a few values, add a couple new animations.

If these characters weren't added we would have likely gotten absolutely nothing in their place.

 

[Cpt.]

Or balancing the game even more(Dat Villager)
Or possibly adding one or two more returning stages
Or adding more music choices
Or adding online to Smash Run
Or improving online overall
Or changing Ganondorf so he would be less of a clone
Or giving Falco an arwing for his FS
Or giving everyone alternate costumes
Or more palette swaps
Or giving Sheik a new FS
Or giving Toon Link a new FS
Or giving (insert name) a good FS
Or adding more items
Or adding more alternate costumes
Or having one unique semi-clone instead of three clones
Or fix the Ice Climbers
Or add an intro
Or more customization options
Or perfect the current roster then add even more clones as Free DLC
Or fix the Blast Zone
Or overall improving many aspects of the game as possible before having fan-service/roster padding.

What a shame indeed. I doubt that three clones would equal 1/4 of an assist trophy but it probably wouldn't equal my list too.

Well clones pretty much are pallet swaps (at least that is how I think of them).

 

[simpleglitch]

Or balancing the game even more(Dat Villager)
Or possibly adding one or two more returning stages
Or adding more music choices
Or adding online to Smash Run
Or improving online overall
Or changing Ganondorf so he would be less of a clone
Or giving Falco an arwing for his FS
Or giving everyone alternate costumes
Or more palette swaps
Or giving Sheik a new FS
Or giving Toon Link a new FS
Or giving (insert name) a good FS
Or adding more items
Or adding more alternate costumes
Or having one unique semi-clone instead of three clones
Or fix the Ice Climbers
Or add an intro
Or more customization options
Or perfect the current roster then add even more clones as Free DLC
Or fix the Blast Zone
Or overall improving many aspects of the game as possible before having fan-service/roster padding.

What a shame indeed. I doubt that three clones would equal 1/4 of an assist trophy but it probably wouldn't equal my list too.

In most game development projects, character design is a separate team than stage, item, gamemode, etc design. Then characters development is broken into separate groups for concept, modeling, texturing, animation, and stats/implementation.

Creating clone characters would not have taken anything way from non-character aspects of the game, nor would it have taken much away from the concept stage (particularly because everything was built from the ground up anyway).

 

[TR3G | Informant]

It matters not his relative ability, Fox will be the most successful to who he is trustworthy to him the most.

 

[Ffamran]

It matters not his relative ability, Fox will be the most successful to who he is trustworthy to him the most.

Why the hell are you spamming stuff about Fox everywhere?! This isn't even a thread about Fox!

 

[TR3G | Informant]

Everything is about Fox.

Everything.

 

[Killimano23]

People who complain about clones wrongly assume that one day Sakurai sat down and said "hmmm what would be better... Ridley or Dark Pit? Dark Pit of course!". What ACTUALLY happened was Sakurai had a bit of extra time to add a bit of bonus content into the game and thought that fans would be happy with a little more. so stfu about the clones because you lost absolutely nothing from their inclusion

 

[HugoBoss]

Every single one of those things would take at least 10 times as much time as copy/paste, change a few values, add a couple new animations.

If these characters weren't added we would have likely gotten absolutely nothing in their place.

Which was the majority of the list. Copy/Pasting, changing some values, and adding some new animations to existing characters.
"Or balancing the game even more
Or changing Ganondorf so he would be less of a clone
Or giving Falco an arwing for his FS
Or giving everyone alternate costumes
Or more palette swaps
Or giving Sheik a new FS
Or giving Toon Link a new FS
Or giving (insert name) a good FS
Or adding more alternate costumes
Or having one unique semi-clone instead of three clones
Or more customization options
Or perfect the current roster then add even more clones as Free DLC
Or overall improving many aspects of the game as possible before having fan-service/roster padding."
Why would any of these things take longer development time than three clones when they both have the same process?

In most game development projects, character design is a separate team than stage, item, gamemode, etc design. Then characters development is broken into separate groups for concept, modeling, texturing, animation, and stats/implementation.

Creating clone characters would not have taken anything way from non-character aspects of the game, nor would it have taken much away from the concept stage (particularly because everything was built from the ground up anyway).

Your right about the non-character aspect, but what about the character aspect? With the time to make clones, they could have done more with that section of development

People who complain about clones wrongly assume that one day Sakurai sat down and said "hmmm what would be better... Ridley or Dark Pit? Dark Pit of course!". What ACTUALLY happened was Sakurai had a bit of extra time to add a bit of bonus content into the game and thought that fans would be happy with a little more. so stfu about the clones because you lost absolutely nothing from their inclusion

Again, that's a false generalization.

 

[Zek]

It utterly blows my mind that there are people who think Luigi is a clone. He is a 100% original character with a couple homages to Mario by design (for obvious reasons). You can make an argument for characters like Falco, Ganondorf and Toon Link being clones, but they all have quite a few distinct A attacks so they are nowhere near the same category as Melee-style clones like Dr Mario and Dark Pit which are just reskins of the original character with modified stats.

 

[TopSecretZone]

Don't they decide the roster before even starting development on the game? If you're going into the game with the idea of having these characters and making Lucina, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit clones to begin with instead of setting a sligthly later release date and making them more unique, then why bother? It just seems complacent and lazy.

 

[simpleglitch]

Which was the majority of the list. Copy/Pasting, changing some values, and adding some new animations to existing characters.
"Or balancing the game even more
Or changing Ganondorf so he would be less of a clone
Or giving Falco an arwing for his FS
Or giving everyone alternate costumes
Or more palette swaps
Or giving Sheik a new FS
Or giving Toon Link a new FS
Or giving (insert name) a good FS
Or adding more alternate costumes
Or having one unique semi-clone instead of three clones
Or more customization options
Or perfect the current roster then add even more clones as Free DLC
Or overall improving many aspects of the game as possible before having fan-service/roster padding."
Why would any of these things take longer development time than three clones when they both have the same process?


Your right about the non-character aspect, but what about the character aspect? With the time to make clones, they could have done more with that section of development

Well, you probably can remove FS's from the list. Those would primarly take resources during the concept phase of a character which even Vets went through due to the inclusion of new custom moves. Using Sheik as an example, she would have recieved FS reworks, had they wanted to, when they were designing her new moves (side and down B) + custom moves. Non-cloneing characters (Ganondorf) would have also happened at the character concept stage when designing the custom moves.

More customization options wouldn't have been possible, because that would have been a early development decision, and require very extensive re-coding if they changed their mind about it part way through (unless they programmed in method of extending it in the future encase they had plans for DLC/Patchs but probably unlikely).

Game Balance would have probably been a different group. A lot of the balance options are code based vs model / texture / animation work. Clones being worked on would not have stopped progress of balancing the other characters. This would only be a problem is the clones were unbalanced from the rest of the characters (so far they don't seem like it).

Really the only thing that would be impacted by the inclusion of the clones would have been Alt Costumes and Palette swaps (which WOULD likely compete for people power with the clones). Though keep in mind lucina was intended to be an alt costume... though I can't say anything for Dark Pit (and Doc is a semi clone? I know he has at least one different special, I don't know about his A moves). On that note I would have liked to see a Fusion Suit Costume for Samus (apposed to just the palette swap), but I don't know if I value that over a clone.

Don't they decide the roster before even starting development on the game? If you're going into the game with the idea of having these characters and making Lucina, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit clones to begin with instead of setting a sligthly later release date and making them more unique, then why bother? It just seems complacent and lazy.

This has been talked about before (a lot when lucina was revealed). Lucina in particular was a late addition to the roster and not decided at the start like the characters. She was going to be an Alt Costume, but they decided she would work better as a clone due to a change in mechanics (and probably to hype FE fans). It is reasonable to assume that Dark Pit is in the same boat. Alt costumes who got lucky.

I don't know if the Doc was also going to be an alt costume for Mario, or if he was planned to have his own slot. He seems very much like he was in melee.

 

[MBakhsh]

Which was the majority of the list. Copy/Pasting, changing some values, and adding some new animations to existing characters.
"Or balancing the game even more
Or changing Ganondorf so he would be less of a clone
Or giving Falco an arwing for his FS
Or giving everyone alternate costumes
Or more palette swaps
Or giving Sheik a new FS
Or giving Toon Link a new FS
Or giving (insert name) a good FS
Or adding more alternate costumes
Or having one unique semi-clone instead of three clones
Or more customization options
Or perfect the current roster then add even more clones as Free DLC
Or overall improving many aspects of the game as possible before having fan-service/roster padding."
Why would any of these things take longer development time than three clones when they both have the same process?

New costumes require actual graphic design, new final smashes and moves would require implementing a new idea and designing it from scratch, more customizations would take some time seeing as every character would need another one to make it fair (keep in mind that even customized moves are much more differentiated from the clones' sets). And balancing the game more? Do you have any idea how complex that process is?

But that's not really the main point.

If these characters weren't added we would have likely gotten absolutely nothing in their place.

The team adds whatever they want to add, and if Sakurai really wanted whatever you just listed in then it would have been added, especially f it were as simple and easy as you suggested. You may not think clones add to the game but a lot of people do, and there are loads and loads of content in the game and if something you don't like is added then all of a sudden that's exactly what's to blame for not getting whatever else? It's the same idiotic line of thinking as "Dr. Mario stole Mewtwo's spot, he should have been the one to return!" . Even if they did take the same amount of work to implement (which isn't even close to true) having one doesn't mean the other was pushed out. Namely, when it comes to these relatively smaller details, adding content will not cause other content to not be in the game as a result. If the team had considered the items on your list to be worthwhile then all of it would have been implemented.

In conclusion, stop treating clones as a straw man. It was either them or jack squat.

 

[TopSecretZone]

This has been talked about before (a lot when lucina was revealed). Lucina in particular was a late addition to the roster and not decided at the start like the characters. She was going to be an Alt Costume, but they decided she would work better as a clone due to a change in mechanics (and probably to hype FE fans). It is reasonable to assume that Dark Pit is in the same boat. Alt costumes who got lucky.

I don't know if the Doc was also going to be an alt costume for Mario, or if he was planned to have his own slot. He seems very much like he was in melee.

Thanks for the clarification. I just think if you really feel like tweaking a costume into a new player you should do enough to really separate it from the original otherwise just slight tweaks are boring and a waste of time. I'm really trying to not get worked up over a video game but I think going the extra mile on things like that just makes for a better product.

 

[Ffamran]

Don't they decide the roster before even starting development on the game? If you're going into the game with the idea of having these characters and making Lucina, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit clones to begin with instead of setting a sligthly later release date and making them more unique, then why bother? It just seems complacent and lazy.

They do, but things happen. Not everything on paper works out and the whole "plans don't always go as planned". Lucina was supposed to be an alt costume, but was made into a clone due to her height and different properties. I can't say about Dr. Mario, but I'm going to assume Pittoo was just a last minute thing since half of Uprising's weapons are left untouched that Pittoo could have used.

My theory: the Ice Climber were planned, but technical difficulties came up. Wanting to not delay the game too long and needing a way to "finish" the roster, Pittoo was added, but something else came up: while trying to figure out a way to get the Ice Climbers in and and making Pittoo a clone, Wolf (and maybe others) was left unfinished. Since every character is supposedly (re)built up from scratch, imagine the loss of time when getting stuck and scrambling to make up for lost time. So, two characters down and one character replaced. Alph is fundamentally Olimar in Pikmin and SSB, the Koopalings would take too long since they'd need a unique move set and were probably not planned at all... Lucina! Yes, Lucina! She even disguised herself as Marth in Awakening! Perfect and mechanically, she doesn't rely on tippers anyway and she is shorter than Chrom and Marth. Boom. Last minute characters who unfortunately became misrepresented and are now taking the flak for everything.

Meanwhile, Dr. Mario the semi-clone who was a clone in his original appearance...

 

[TopSecretZone]

The inconsistent amount of alt costumes and colors weirds me out too. The game on the whole just feels really unfinished.

 

[simpleglitch]

Thanks for the clarification. I just think if you really feel like tweaking a costume into a new player you should do enough to really separate it from the original otherwise just slight tweaks are boring and a waste of time. I'm really trying to not get worked up over a video game but I think going the extra mile on things like that just makes for a better product.

And balancing the game more? Do you have any idea how complex that process is?

Keep in mind, Sakurai likes incorporating things from characters actual games (tough he does take take his artist license with things, e.g. skull bash pikachu). Essentially, having clones is no different than an alt costume, just with things smoothed out so that fans of that character don't want to pull their hair out. Doc fans would like find it very odd if he shot fireballs instead of pills (or pills with fire effects), and Lucina sword (though still technically the same sword as Marth, but reforged) acts like a rapier (sweet spots) despite now having a broad blade (and to be honest, I wonder if they separated the two just so she could have a mask on/off taunt XD).

Can't speak for Dark Pit, haven't played IC and I don't know what his changes are from normal pit.

The inconsistent amount of alt costumes and colors weirds me out too. The game on the whole just feels really unfinished.

Inconsistent? All characters have a total of 8 alts with the exception of little mac who has 16 (8 normal / 8 wire-frame).

 

[TopSecretZone]

What I meant by that was some characters have an alt model, some have seven, some have more than four colors for each model, etc.

And the minor differences they made to clone characters just don't seem really worth bothering to put them in the game. I don't care either way if they're in or out, my main point was that if you feel the need to make them more than just costumes to begin with, put the time and effort into making them stand out more.

 

[Killimano23]

Yeah I suppose my opinion of the clones depends on whether or not they were actually planned from the beginning. Cause if they were always supposed to be in the roster then they could tried to at LEAST making them into only semi-clones as opposed to full clones. But if they were last minute additions then I have no problems with them in their current state as they are more bonus content

 

[TTYK]

Easily the best smash roster yet, I just think everyone is still feeling pissed off that Mewtwo and Ridley did not make it in, and they decide to blame the clones. Of course it seems like every month they have something different to blame it on. *Sigh*

 

[TopSecretZone]

Easily the best smash roster yet, I just think everyone is still feeling pissed off that Mewtwo and Ridley did not make it in, and they decide to blame the clones. Of course it seems like every month they have something different to blame it on. *Sigh*

Would you feel better if I blamed you?

 

[simpleglitch]

Would you feel better if I blamed you?

You can blame me. I didn't believed hard enough.

 

[TopSecretZone]

Believe in who? I'm fine with any character that's fun to play.

 

[TTYK]

Would you feel better if I blamed you?

I don't get it..

 

[TopSecretZone]

I don't get it..

You said every month people have something new to blame. I just made a joke about blaming you because that'd make no sense at all.

 

[simpleglitch]

You said every month people have something new to blame. I just made a joke about blaming you because that'd make no sense at all.

Essentially as much sense as people claiming the clones will ruin Smash and Mewtwo and Ridley didn't make it because Sakurai hates us XD

 

[TopSecretZone]

Snake did ruin smash though. Everything smash related after his reveal trailer just pales in comparison.

 

[TTYK]

You said every month people have something new to blame. I just made a joke about blaming you because that'd make no sense at all.

Well the first time people blamed Lucario and said that Lucario sucked and they blamed POTD's and the Greninja trailer etc.

 

[Folt]

I like the clones. More characters to play as is love, I love variants of excisting movesets, it gives us the old Mario moveset back in spirit, and it means I can play with Pit and Mario's movesets without them being Pit and Mario.

And also, generally, if we look away from the clones, we still have a roster with 40+ unique movesets and a very solid selection of playable fighters that will appeal to many people.

 

[HugoBoss]

New costumes require actual graphic design, new final smashes and moves would require implementing a new idea and designing it from scratch, more customizations would take some time seeing as every character would need another one to make it fair (keep in mind that even customized moves are much more differentiated from the clones' sets). And balancing the game more? Do you have any idea how complex that process is?
But that's not really the main point.
The team adds whatever they want to add, and if Sakurai really wanted whatever you just listed in then it would have been added, especially f it were as simple and easy as you suggested. You may not think clones add to the game but a lot of people do, and there are loads and loads of content in the game and if something you don't like is added then all of a sudden that's exactly what's to blame for not getting whatever else? It's the same idiotic line of thinking as "Dr. Mario stole Mewtwo's spot, he should have been the one to return!" . Even if they did take the same amount of work to implement (which isn't even close to true) having one doesn't mean the other was pushed out. Namely, when it comes to these relatively smaller details, adding content will not cause other content to not be in the game as a result. If the team had considered the items on your list to be worthwhile then all of it would have been implemented.

In conclusion, stop treating clones as a straw man. It was either them or jack squat.

So there was absolutely NOTHING to implement during the "extra development time" except clones?
I'm sorry, but I find that too hard to believe. Just like I find clones being "last minute decisions" as false. I don't mind bonus content, but it should be only a bonus.
BTW, The only clone that I can tolerate is Dr.Mario

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I like clones, but Dark Pit and Dr. Mario could have just been skins! Hell, even though Lucina was in my top 5, Roy would have made more sense