Path of Radiance: Ike Guide and Strategy Discussion

[Maik93]

Just wondering...
Did somebody already test how our buffed nair and fair face off against shields?
Hoping for even safer aerials or perhaps even frame advantage

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Wanted to ask if one can true combo nair into uair with the changed angle on nair at kill percent after the nair buff. If not, what can we do that we couldn't do before the patch?

Just wondering...
Did somebody already test how our buffed nair and fair face off against shields?
Hoping for even safer aerials or perhaps even frame advantage

Well Fair had an increase in range (and a rather significant one as well), so fair will definitely be safer against shield.

 

[free33]

What did the change to Nair do overall? is it a better combo move?

 

[Rebel13]

I've been messing around with the new Nair, and found that you can now actually combo Nair into Fair by the ledge at percents where Fair will KO. That's really huge. It also combo's into Uair at those same percents, but only if they DI in. This is both partly because the new angle + Fair's longer range, and more 9% -> 10% also means more hitstun.

For those less familiar with comboing off nair (or not Ike mains), just remember you have to fastfall it and hit just barely before you touch the ground.

 

[san.]

Just wondering...
Did somebody already test how our buffed nair and fair face off against shields?
Hoping for even safer aerials or perhaps even frame advantage

Fair is 1 frame safer on shield, should be -2 on shield drop. Both fair and nair have better shield pushback due to better damage.

Wanted to ask if one can true combo nair into uair with the changed angle on nair at kill percent after the nair buff. If not, what can we do that we couldn't do before the patch?

nair->uair is a possible kill confirm on light fastfallers. For medium weights, you need a staled nair for it to kill confirm into uair. On everyone, sourspot nair into uair is a pretty easy kill confirm. You can get the confirm around 70-80% with mild rage. Fortunately, nair scales less with rage than uair does.

What did the change to Nair do overall? is it a better combo move?

Yes. The angle was made more vertical so you can follow up more easily and it deals 1 more damage. The damage helps at low % against fastfallers. Nair almost always gets a little something even when spaced.

I've been messing around with the new Nair, and found that you can now actually combo Nair into Fair by the ledge at percents where Fair will KO. That's really huge. It also combo's into Uair at those same percents, but only if they DI in. This is both partly because the new angle + Fair's longer range, and more 9% -> 10% also means more hitstun.

For those less familiar with comboing off nair (or not Ike mains), just remember you have to fastfall it and hit just barely before you touch the ground.

Yep. You were able to do this before, but it was tougher and fair was weaker. Nair->footstool and even some gimmicky options like nair->aether are easier to perform.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Thanks for all the info san! Wondering if you're still posting to that YouTube channel of yours and if you have any new vids planned after this patch?

 

[Cereal Bawks]

What exactly is nair's sourspot? Is that its back hit/late nair?

 

[Deleted member 269706]

What exactly is nair's sourspot? Is that its back hit/late nair?

Yes sir. Nair lasts for 15 frames in total (12-27), but only frames 22-27 land his sour spot. At least according to http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ike

 

[san.]

Thanks for all the info san! Wondering if you're still posting to that YouTube channel of yours and if you have any new vids planned after this patch?

If there's anything interesting you want me to show, I can. I just get tired from work most of the time and don't have people to test things with me. I also stopped bringing my setup to tournaments since my local venue has a lot of setups now.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

If there's anything interesting you want me to show, I can. I just get tired from work most of the time and don't have people to test things with me. I also stopped bringing my setup to tournaments since my local venue has a lot of setups now.

I was just wondering if you had any plans of doing so, your work was always extremely polished and great for review, but no pressure if you have other things to worry about.

 

[Prepare_Yourself]

San, make something neat like this. Xuan Wu

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

Update on the "Utilt vs characters that hang on the ledge and lost invincibility" thingy
Utilt can hit Bayonetta but it doesn´t hit Corrin

Characters that can´t get hit by it when hanging on ledge :
Greninja, Cloud, Palutena,Ganondorf,Corrin

Also, could Uthrow>Nair at higher % be a better kill confirm than Uthrow>Uair? It got quite a bit stronger and is faster than Uair on top of that.

 

[JTPROG]

random important question.. do jab 1, 2 and 3 count separately for staling? (haven't had a chance to test it and have a local tonight)

While I'm at it, how important do you consider spacing with bair - should I only focus on that when they're at kill %? I usually find forward spacing safer but maybe I need to get more used to it.

 

[Prepare_Yourself]

Ryo definitely succeeds with backward spacing at times, pulling out the bair for how fast it is at the right moment (not just when trying to kill).

 

[Arrei]

I'm not very good at RAR Bairing, but I definitely space with Bair a lot when landing with my back to the opponent. Not only is it difficult to punish but a lot of people drop their shield thinking Ike is easy to punish on landing, getting them a heavy hit in the face. Then they start learning to block it and open themselves to tomahawking.

I'm actually not sure on the jab staling, myself, and moves that use the same input for multiple attacks a la MK and Bayonetta's Ftilts.

 

[Xuan Wu]

San, make something neat like this. Xuan Wu

I'm glad these are still applicable after the latest update, though the string involving U-air became obsolete as of version 1.1.0.

Anyway, I recently found a video someone made on Ike's combos out of a footstool jab lock. I think we should be utilizing them more often due to the amount of damage we can inflict in a very short period of time. San's video on Ike's double footstool combo with N-air is a very good example of this.

^-^

 

[san.]

Yeah, that above video probably lists the most awkward and impractical footstool methods. Nair >>> uair.

 

[Prepare_Yourself]

So a lot of people have been wondering...

 

[[BROF]]

Hello, long-time lurker now poster here. Glad to start posting on the Ike forums. I got a couple questions regarding Uthrow+Fair.
I've seen many players (Mainly Ryo) get this as guaranteed followup kill. In most of the situations the Fair was fresh and the kill was near the ledge, but it seemed to work pretty well.
Has any chart regarding this kill confirm been made? It seems the window for it to true combo into death is quite small. I've been getting it to true combo on mid weights all the way up to 70%, but I was wondering if any information regarding the best kill % existed.
I imagine it works even better if the throw is stalled a bit.

 

[Maik93]

Yeah the window is indeed really small and Rage will close it entirely...
But I've been able to true combo it on Mario in training mode until the "red sparks" appeared...
However I don't remember the exact percentage...

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

Hello, long-time lurker now poster here. Glad to start posting on the Ike forums. I got a couple questions regarding Uthrow+Fair.
I've seen many players (Mainly Ryo) get this as guaranteed followup kill. In most of the situations the Fair was fresh and the kill was near the ledge, but it seemed to work pretty well.
Has any chart regarding this kill confirm been made? It seems the window for it to true combo into death is quite small. I've been getting it to true combo on mid weights all the way up to 70%, but I was wondering if any information regarding the best kill % existed.
I imagine it works even better if the throw is stalled a bit.

I THINK someone´s been working on a decently accurate list with rage/DI etc (I forgot who it was, sadly). It´s not a replacement, but Training Mode can give you an idea for Uthrow>Fair candidates at kill %.

From my experience so far, floaties (Jiggs,Luigi etc) are the least vulnerable to Uthrow>Fair, but it works on fastfalles and/or heavyweights at kill % (Fox,Sheik,Bayonetta,Ryu,Cloud,ZSS etc), depending on rage, of course. And it´s even stronger now thanks to more range AND damage on Fair.

Stalled Uhtrow does make the window for Uthrow>Fair confirms bigger, true!

 

[Maik93]

Btw throwing something completly different in here...
What do you think of this?

 

[GhostUrsa]

Maik93 I was wondering if I should mix in more shield grabs into my game, but it looks like it is one thing I don't really need to worry about unless I want mix-up options now. Which is good, as I need all the help I can get when it comes to training. One less thing to have to keep in mind while I practice not getting stomped in Smashladder.

 

[PK Gaming]

So is there really no master list for Ike's upthrow > uair kill combo?! I saw Ryo pull it off earlier and it was absolutely devastating.

If not, then there needs to be one!

 

[Arrei]

So, it's been mentioned before that Ike could potentially make great use of perfect pivots, but the difficulty in consistently pulling them off hasn't really developed PP strategies very much.

Well, now that My Smash Corner made a video on "Bidou" Tech (also linked in the social thread), people have been discussing how it's a great way to pull off frame perfect commands, especially PP. (http://smashboards.com/threads/bidou-tech.433736/) The downside is that Bidou requires a special stick control setup that makes attack stick impossible, and essentially requires a conscious effort to "enable" specials, as they cannot be performed with Bidou's special button held down. The control scheme is possible with other controllers than just the Pro Controller, albeit possibly feeling a little more awkward.

How do you guys think Ike would benefit from this? Ike almost never uses his specials onstage, so one downside is nigh inconsequential, but we've been preaching the gospel of the almighty tilt stick since launch over here.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

So to be quite frank, Ike won't make it as a solo-mained character. He should be switched out against the following:

-Cloud
-Diddy Kong
-Sheik

Against Cloud, he loses hard on platform stages. Battlefield and Dream Land do him no favors, and Lylat Cruise is just a death sentence.

Against Diddy Kong, he loses harshly on stages, but may do damage on platform stages.

Against Sheik, it's always been an uphill match. However, there has been limited testing on post-patch Sheik. But historically, this has been Ike's worst matchup.

In times like these, it's best to switch to another character after the first round. If you and your opponent agree to Smashville, Town & City, or Final Destination against Cloud, you can very much win. Cloud doesn't do as well on flat stages. However, he will murder Ike on platform stages, where it is best to switch out. Personally, I secondary Cloud, so I have no problem going ditto against another Cloud main. Once the second round passes, I either win the set or it's Game 3, where I can pick an advantageous stage for Ike. If it's a Bo5, I stay Cloud until I lose.

Against Diddy Kong, it's a point to start with Ike since it's your main. Ban the flat stages, leaving Battlefield, Dream Land, Town & City, and possibly Lylat Cruise. Final Destination doesn't do you any favors, as Diddy has camping range for days and can catch your landings, and Smashville does a disservice to Ike because Diddy can use the floating platform to save himself from your edgeguarding. That being said, you do better on FD since Diddy isn't as fatal at catching landings as Mario or Sonic. If you can win Game 1, switch because the Diddy will be taking you to disadvantaged stage.

As for Sheik, it's still a mystery to me as I have not played a Sheik in bracket to gauge whether or not we can win this matchup with her nerfed weight and our patched UThrow Fair confirms.

Cloud and Mario are both effective against at least 2/3 of these characters. If you're going to use a secondary, it's best to find someone who can cover and sort Ike's worst matchups. Mario himself is also a detrimental matchup, but he is clearly manageable.

Also, some matchups, like Jigglypuff, are very annoying for Ike, but managed much easier using Cloud with the same strategies. Ike loses proper use of his powerful moves, like USmash, as it takes only one mistake for Jigglypuff to Rest you at 53% and end the stock. Cloud uses very similar spacing tools, but takes less commitment. His Nair is safer and his DTilt is a slide that can cover the distance to punish Jigglypuff effectively. Moreover, Cloud's Uair can kill Jigglpuff around 115% and his Dair COMPLETELY shuts down any and all of her attacks as it has a huge, lingering hitbox.

Finally, Cloud's limit charge forces Jigglypuff to approach. She is not the fastest character, making it that much easier to charge limit. This turns into Limit Cross Slash, which kills Jigglypuff around 80% and outranges the character completely.

Cloud's one weakness is getting gimped. It's a weakness he shares with Ike, but his Up B doesn't have a projectile like feature to throw Jiggs off. However, this can be averted simply by staying midstage and charging limit to force the approach.

Another example is Little Mac. While Ike wins the matchup, Cloud no doubt has a superior advantage over the character. DTilt slide can punish Little Mac on shield and his Nair is a very FAST attack that has sufficient knockback.

If you can help it, find your secondary and sort the matchups you struggle with. Ike can still do well against certain characters, like Pikachu. But his unignorable weaknesses turn him into a struggle if you begin losing percents and stocks. Right now, his biggest strength is literally his ability to confirm UThrow Fair for kill confirms, while his second biggest strength is the upgraded Fair itself, which covers a larger range and can kill off the ledge around 90% to 100%, making it one of the single most effective edgeguarding tools in the game. To match that is his Bair, which comes out faster. Against characters, like Pikachu and Diddy Kong, who tend to "disrespect" by hitting you before the Fair frame start, you can just use retreating Bair when they get up from the ledge with Fair or use it as an approach option.

However, Ike undoubtedly loses the neutral to a number of characters on the roster. To be quite frank, he still needs buffs in other areas before I see him being viable as a solo main. As more people learn the Ike matchup, they're learning exactly where he's punishable at - both in neutral and offstage - and making it harder and harder for Ike mains to take stocks.

One notable weakness is Dair. It's very slow, and still not as reliable for spiking as Captain Falcon's, Cloud's, Charizard's, or Donkey Kong's. Another is the lack of special options in neutral. For certain characters, grabbing Banana Peels or Gyros still gives you plenty of fighting moves with B. But Ike is highly limited, forcing setups and reads for using them effectively against the other player. I worry it's similar to the Brawl scenario, where he goes 50-50 against most of the roster, 55-45 against a number of the higher tiers, and 60-40 against several others, offering very limited advantage against the roster outside of fundamentals, reads, and good player judgement. The main thing will always be spacing against the opponent, strong defensive play, grab combos, edgeguarding, and carefully managing recovery.

 

[PyroTakun]

Hey san. it might be time to try to update the OP.

 

[san.]

A lot of it just needs to be scrapped and rewritten.

 

[PyroTakun]

A lot of it just needs to be scrapped and rewritten.

I'm going through that with the MU thread. Came here to find some general tips to throw in and realized we both haven't updated in a while.

 

[san.]

There's a lot of discussion in the discord. I've been answering a lot of questions there. I always wanted to make more videos, but I never found the time (had consecutive tournaments every week for the last 2 months almost, except for tomorrow).

 

[EBB (Dash)]

I've been experimenting with Bidou lately. Right off the bat, there are a few techniques that are easy to perform once you have a basic comfort level with Bidou.

The easy tech I've found most useful for Ike:
- retreating and advancing PP Jab
- advancing PP Ftilt (retreating pivot Ftilt is already a strong option so no need for the PP)
- advancing and retreating PP Dtilt
- advancing and retreating PP Utilt
- retreating PP shield and spot dodge

Ike has a (slightly below) average PP range compared to the rest of the cast. However, the PP range is still long enough to be useful.

But there's a catch...

I no longer have my right stick for aerial moves. This makes certain throw follow-ups with Ike extremely difficult, if not impossible to perform.
I notice this the most when trying to follow up my Up Throw. Usually, if my opponent DI's behind me, I can perform a full hop retreating Fair to catch them.
However, with Bidou, I'm unable to full hop retreating Fair, and I have to settle for a full hop retreating Nair. This will connect at some percents, but there are certain situations where I feel like Fair would connect where Nair would not.

Let me know if you guys have any solutions to my dilemma. I think Ike's ground game can really improve with Bidou, but I am loath to give up the ability to Up Throw + Retreating Fair.

 

[ampatron]

Hey guys, I have a few questions:

How practical are Ike's footstool combos? Should I be grinding to get them down? It seems like they won't be useful since the opponent can DI left or right after I footstool them to avoid my followups (although I figure this could be a matter of me not being good at them yet).

Also I need some advice for jabs. I've seen things like jab>grab or jab>dtilt, can anyone tell me what's possible and how many jabs to do? And is there a way to make it so that my input isn't interpreted as another jab, aside from timing it really well?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Hey guys, I have a few questions:

How practical are Ike's footstool combos? Should I be grinding to get them down? It seems like they won't be useful since the opponent can DI left or right after I footstool them to avoid my followups (although I figure this could be a matter of me not being good at them yet).

Also I need some advice for jabs. I've seen things like jab>grab or jab>dtilt, can anyone tell me what's possible and how many jabs to do? And is there a way to make it so that my input isn't interpreted as another jab, aside from timing it really well?

san. can answer this. I've seen Ryo try it and miss so many times I'm honestly not willing to do it since it risks losing the damage you could have guaranteed from a UThrow Fair.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

Hey guys, I have a few questions:

How practical are Ike's footstool combos? Should I be grinding to get them down? It seems like they won't be useful since the opponent can DI left or right after I footstool them to avoid my followups (although I figure this could be a matter of me not being good at them yet).

Also I need some advice for jabs. I've seen things like jab>grab or jab>dtilt, can anyone tell me what's possible and how many jabs to do? And is there a way to make it so that my input isn't interpreted as another jab, aside from timing it really well?

Jab 1 doesn´t exactly true combo into anything other than jab 2 (as far as I know, atleast), but it can potentially lead into dtilt/grabs if you want/need more damage. It´s also worth remembering that you can get a jab 1>uptilt at high % for the kill, depending on what your opponent does after getting jabbed.

You can also go for jab 1 for extending nair combos at low %. nair>jab 1>utrhrow>fair, for example.

Jab 1 is better than Jab 2 for mix ups because you can act faster out of Jab 1 (about 4 frames less cooldown)!

 

[Arrei]

I think Jab1 works better on floaties and Jab2 works better on fastfallers. Jab1 has less endlag but a fastfaller will hit the ground and be able to throw out their own jab quite a while before you can go in for the mixup, and it also telegraphs your intentions more if you just punch once and stop. Jab2 kicks them a little higher up, which causes them to hit the ground while you go in.

However, characters like Mario can just throw out a Nair in your face and stop the followup.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I think Jab1 works better on floaties and Jab2 works better on fastfallers. Jab1 has less endlag but a fastfaller will hit the ground and be able to throw out their own jab quite a while before you can go in for the mixup, and it also telegraphs your intentions more if you just punch once and stop. Jab2 kicks them a little higher up, which causes them to hit the ground while you go in.

However, characters like Mario can just throw out a Nair in your face and stop the followup.

Mario, Luigi, Pikachu, Link. Just going over a few.

 

[Arrei]

Mario, Luigi, Link, Fox, etc., for sure. Pikachu, I'm actually not sure about - it's fast just like the others, but has poor reach and really bad landing lag. If you're trying to dash in and grab every time, it might stop you, but Pikachu will probably prefer to try and jump out if he can react in time.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

I´ve been playing around with Ike´s Jab 1 and characters with combobreaker nairs for a while. So far, I tried it with Mario,Luigi,Villager and Fox.

I can say that Fox can´t nair out of Ike´s jab 1 because of hiss fall speed. His nair won´t come out in time.

I was kinda surprised that the other characters weren´t able to nair me after my jab 1. All three characters had the time to perfom a nair, but Ike´s jab 1 knocked them far enough away so that their nair didn´t reach Ike. Maybe I just tested it the wrong way? I jabbed one time with Ike, then mashed the A button on the other controller as the other character got jabbed.

I should also note that I jabbed them when they were right in front of Ike, yet they were still sent too far away to get Ike with a nair. This means that, if we space jab 1 well, there´s no way that any combobreaker nair will be able to reach Ike after his jab.

Maybe they have to DI in so their nair might connect? Maybe I´ll try it later when I get back home when I have the time. But Idk how well I can jab 1 with Ike, then DI in + nair as fast as possible on my own.

Maybe I´m just tripping really hard, if all of this is wrong, please correct me asap, don´t wanna spread misinformation.

 

[Arrei]

It's less that they can hit Ike with Nair after exiting hitstun, and more that if Ike goes in for a grab after jabbing, he's going to run face first into the soles of their boots while they land with extremely low landing lag. He should be able to go for other mixup options if he's conditioned an opponent into Nairing after every jab cancel, though they should still be able to jump out on reaction if they're not large or fast enough a faller to hit the ground before exiting hitstun.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

So, if we predict their action correctly, we can go for dtilt/utilt if they decide to nair or try to catch them with fair if they decide to jump away. Jab 1>Grab seems to be pretty good against fastfallers with no combobreaker (Falcon,Cloud, ect). Good to know!