Patch 1.16 Discussion - "The Witch Hunt is over"

[TheColorfulOrca]

How do you land a dABK after burning up the 2nd WT? Triple jump glitch?

Pre-patch, the second WT > dABK was actually pretty easy. Especially if you DJC the WT > WT.

ABK doesn't combo into fair 123 well either.

Agree there. Though, pre-patch, dABK comboed into itself and Fair.

Also, if you miss the dABK, you're dead.

Not if you're in the middle of the stage.

EDIT: Actually, it does kill you. My bad.

EDIT 2: I thought the good 0-death was DTilt > Fair1 > WT > DJ dABK > dABK > WT > Fair.

 

[AkiraGr]

Hi guys and gals. Long time no see. I see a lot o pessimism in the thread. I know I was very upset after the unfair nerf. But I change my mentalitty and pushed myself the meta in my country for Bayonetta. I am the only Bayo in Greece and after a lot of work and adapt my playstyle I won the biggest tournament in Athens with Bayo.

Check the tournament here and I will try to help aw much as I can all the Bayonetta players how we can adapt the character playstyle from a "combo" character to a "mix up" combo "punish".

 

[Lorde]

yes, i did annotate that correctly

i'm actually surprised you gorls didn't know that dABK combo'd out of wt2 prepatch. it was only on fastfallers, though iirc

training mode registered it as a true combo, but like all of her stuff, i'm sure it was escapable with sdi

it wasn't even that risky since the triple jump glitch exists, so you could use your double jump again if you dropped the combo

here's a video showing it off:

Spoiler

it's not relevant now since dABK has no offensive presence now, but yeah, that combo definitely existed

edit: just reread my last post; it was supposed to be wt>wt>dABK>dABK>fair123
mobile is trash and ruins everything

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

Hi guys and gals. Long time no see. I see a lot o pessimism in the thread. I know I was very upset after the unfair nerf. But I change my mentalitty and pushed myself the meta in my country for Bayonetta. I am the only Bayo in Greece and after a lot of work and adapt my playstyle I won the biggest tournament in Athens with Bayo.

Check the tournament here and I will try to help aw much as I can all the Bayonetta players how we can adapt the character playstyle from a "combo" character to a "mix up" combo "punish".

Props to you man! It's always good to have dedicated people working on improving Bayo's meta. I was upset as well, but we just have to live with it and not get our heads stuck in the past.

 

[Fenny]

Hi guys and gals. Long time no see. I see a lot o pessimism in the thread. I know I was very upset after the unfair nerf. But I change my mentalitty and pushed myself the meta in my country for Bayonetta. I am the only Bayo in Greece and after a lot of work and adapt my playstyle I won the biggest tournament in Athens with Bayo.

Check the tournament here and I will try to help aw much as I can all the Bayonetta players how we can adapt the character playstyle from a "combo" character to a "mix up" combo "punish".

I'm happy for you bro, you really did well there.

That pop off tho rofl

 

[AkiraGr]

I'm happy for you bro, you really did well there.

That pop off tho rofl

The pop off was build up stress from all the **** I been trought by a specific minority about my skills as a Bayonetta player and in general from my local scene. Being also a T.O and a promoter for the scene I build up quite a load of bad emotions because of the constant bickering and trash talk by ungrateful pricks against me.

I needed this to prove my skill as a Bayonetta main. Also to get my point after the nerf that idiots that relay on tier lists and pray for nerfs to get better at the meta game are the worst in the community of Smash 4. I beat 2 of our best players in the top ten power rankings and I have 7 more to beat to reach the top.

Bayonetta is really why I am playing this game competitivly. The witch will prevail.

 

[Fenny]

And speaking of the witch prevailing...

Pink Fresh won KTAR Saga solo maining Bayo. And his fight with Marss in WF was goddamn mind-boggling.

Shadow remains cast guys.

 

[blackghost]

I'm glad he won but there were zero hard mu her him to overcome. he didn't play an elite Diddy or mario or a camping character at all.
he faced zero characters with kill throws too.
I'm not taking away from him but that's very true.

 

[Fenny]

I'm glad he won but there were zero hard mu her him to overcome. he didn't play an elite Diddy or mario or a camping character at all.
he faced zero characters with kill throws too.
I'm not taking away from him but that's very true.

Luck of the draw is a factor no matter who you are regardless, so that isn't really relevant tbh.

Doesn't change the fact that PF was literally playing out of his mind against someone who, in the same tourney, beat two top 10 players. MU disadvantages isn't something you can do a lot about except prepare for them and hope for the best. For now, I'm just happy that Pink has proven himself and Bayo to be exceptional in their own right.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

And speaking of the witch prevailing...

Pink Fresh won KTAR Saga solo maining Bayo. And his fight with Marss in WF was goddamn mind-boggling.

Shadow remains cast guys.

Glad that us Bayo mains are as strong as ever. Mind providing a link for the PF vs. Marss fight? Would love to see how he handled the MU.

 

[Fenny]

Glad that us Bayo mains are as strong as ever. Mind providing a link for the PF vs. Marss fight? Would love to see how he handled the MU.

I found it on 2GGT's Twitch channel and watched it this morning. You might have to do some searching through the stream tho since it's 6 hours long, but it's top 8 only so it shouldn't be too hard. But while you're looking, watch his win against Mr R as well.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

I found it on 2GGT's Twitch channel and watched it this morning. You might have to do some searching through the stream tho since it's 6 hours long, but it's top 8 only so it shouldn't be too hard. But while you're looking, watch his win against Mr R as well.

Ok then. Thanks for letting me know! Do you think PF is the #1 Bayo in the world right now, since 9B switched to Mewtwo? I'm impressed he beat two top different tier players with two different top tier characters with Bayo...

Also, we should rename this thread to "The shadow remains cast" lol.

 

[Fenny]

Ok then. Thanks for letting me know! Do you think PF is the #1 Bayo in the world right now, since 9B switched to Mewtwo? I'm impressed he beat two top different tier players with two different top tier characters with Bayo...

Also, we should rename this thread to "The shadow remains cast" lol.

Yeah, I do. I think that while Saj, Salem and ikep are surely contenders for it, PF has the most to show for it since post-patch. Not just in his wins, but comparing how he handles the character in comparison. ikep might have been the first to display the more creative and situational side of Bayo's combo mix-up game, but PF is the first I've seen apply it in the tournament scene so effectively. As for wins, he's the only one post-patch to have wins against anyone in top 10, including Marss who's considered by ANTi and others like ESAM to be the gatekeeper to the top-tier players - Salem even noted that he couldn't put him down even pre-patch.

 

[blackghost]

speaking of Salem what local(s) is he attending? I can't find him anywhere to watch.

 

[Fenny]

speaking of Salem what local(s) is he attending? I can't find him anywhere to watch.

I only ever see him go to Bros. Calamity's Brotherly Love, which is a monthly

and even then he's only been to like one of them since the patch rofl. The one that he DID go to, he double eliminated 6WX and won the tourney

 

[Clonedpickle]

The pop off was build up stress from all the **** I been trought by a specific minority about my skills as a Bayonetta player and in general from my local scene. Being also a T.O and a promoter for the scene I build up quite a load of bad emotions because of the constant bickering and trash talk by ungrateful pricks against me.

I needed this to prove my skill as a Bayonetta main. Also to get my point after the nerf that idiots that relay on tier lists and pray for nerfs to get better at the meta game are the worst in the community of Smash 4. I beat 2 of our best players in the top ten power rankings and I have 7 more to beat to reach the top.

Bayonetta is really why I am playing this game competitivly. The witch will prevail.

Yeah, that's why I don't go to Smash tournaments.. Even tho I really want to go, the community just pushes me away. With Bayo pre-nerf every idiot ganged up and insulted[goes for some of the pro players too] people just cause they picked her, no matter how good they were with Bayo.

Tho it doesn't help that I don't play Smash thanks to Overwatch and other games that are releasing.. I don't know if I even have a scene here in Iowa. It comes and goes..

 

[Altais]

Damn, I hadn't realised just how bad the nerf hammer was until I actually used Bayonetta in patch 1.1.6.

Still, I refuse to give up.

 

[Lorde]

She's still a very viable character

The nerfs hit hard but they weren't as harsh as the original Diddy nerfs were

Bayo is fine

 

[AkiraGr]

She's still a very viable character

The nerfs hit hard but they weren't as harsh as the original Diddy nerfs were

Bayo is fine

You really do not know what are you talking about. The only character that took a full patch to nerf, deleting 70% of her options and changing her play style is the same as limiting the 50-50 down throw to up air to be killed confirm?

I respect your opinion but facts do not agree with you.

 

[Fenny]

She's still a very viable character

The nerfs hit hard but they weren't as harsh as the original Diddy nerfs were

Bayo is fine

I agreed with this initially until I remembered that Bayo literally got an entire patch dedicated to nerfing her, which is more than what Diddy can say.

She's fine, but boy, anyone can see those nerfs hit her hard.

 

[Lorde]

The only option that was "deleted" was dABK

Witch Twist and ABK are still usable; you just can't spam them like pre-patch

Considering her playstyle pre-patch was just "spam Witch Twist/dABK until it hits and then do a 0-death," it's a good thing it changed. She's still a combo/mix-up character, so...

And Bayo got an entire patch dedicated to nerfing her because the public outcry against her was that bad. People wouldn't even touch the character because of the stigma surrounding her. They had no choice but to nerf her (and it was a good thing; 0-deaths are dumb).

I never said the nerfs didn't hit her hard. In fact, I straight-said, "the nerfs hit her hard." I know they were severe lmao

Right after these heavy nerfs (Diddy, Bayo, kinda Rosalina), people freaked out and claimed the characters are unviable. Now Diddy is one of the best characters and people are beginning g to say that Bayo is potentially Top 10 (not saying I agree).

If you want to say that Bayo's nerfs were the most extreme and nobody knows the pain and suffering Bayo mains had to go through, then go ahead and stay in your echo chamber. Honestly, it's time to get over the nerfs and move on with advancing Bayo's metagame.

 

[AkiraGr]

The only option that was "deleted" was dABK

Witch Twist and ABK are still usable; you just can't spam them like pre-patch

Considering her playstyle pre-patch was just "spam Witch Twist/dABK until it hits and then do a 0-death," it's a good thing it changed. She's still a combo/mix-up character, so...

And Bayo got an entire patch dedicated to nerfing her because the public outcry against her was that bad. People wouldn't even touch the character because of the stigma surrounding her. They had no choice but to nerf her (and it was a good thing; 0-deaths are dumb).

I never said the nerfs didn't hit her hard. In fact, I straight-said, "the nerfs hit her hard." I know they were severe lmao

Right after these heavy nerfs (Diddy, Bayo, kinda Rosalina), people freaked out and claimed the characters are unviable. Now Diddy is one of the best characters and people are beginning g to say that Bayo is potentially Top 10 (not saying I agree).

If you want to say that Bayo's nerfs were the most extreme and nobody knows the pain and suffering Bayo mains had to go through, then go ahead and stay in your echo chamber. Honestly, it's time to get over the nerfs and move on with advancing Bayo's metagame.

I think you are one of this groupies that started the public outcry when you didn't have any proofs rather than mob mentality. ESAM proved that there were no 0-Deaths.

We have already moved on but we are still pissed because Bayonetta was a very flamboyant character and had great aerial combos. I will stop here because there is no reason to argue with people that are ignorant on the matter.

 

[Lorde]

I've literally mained Bayonetta since her release, so idk what you're going on about

Yeah, you could escape the combos with SDI. That doesn't mean that they weren't stupid and needed to be removed.

I'm of the opinion that all they needed to do to "fix" Bayonetta was just kill dABK (which they did). That would have removed the 0-deaths and she would have been fine. The Witch Twist/ABK/other nerfs were mostly due to people screaming about how broken the character was. She didn't really need to have those moves nerfed, but whatever, it happened.

I just can't believe you're defending the super easy 0-deaths that worked on basically the entire cast and required tons more effort to escape than to perform.

 

[Fenny]

To be honest I was never annoyed by any of it lmao.

Yeah you could escape her combos, but at the same time ESAM's a mash god so it doesn't apply much to the rest of the community.

I wish they had kept dABK's angle at a level where she could still combo into it consistently without leading to death combos but past that the nerfs made her more fun and rewarding to play as imo.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I could never do the 0-death combos pre-patch anyway, so the nerfs didnt really affect me.

Funnily enough, I only learned how to do it after she got nerfed.

 

[Fenny]

I could never do the 0-death combos pre-patch anyway, so the nerfs didnt really affect me.

Funnily enough, I only learned how to do it after she got nerfed.

Pink Fresh death combo'd Wadi twice over in yesterday's Xanadu off a Witch Time lmao

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

I think you are one of this groupies that started the public outcry when you didn't have any proofs rather than mob mentality. ESAM proved that there were no 0-Deaths.

We have already moved on but we are still pissed because Bayonetta was a very flamboyant character and had great aerial combos. I will stop here because there is no reason to argue with people that are ignorant on the matter.

Remember to maintain a positive attitude towards everyone here. It's fine to state your opinions, but please be respectful to everyone while doing so.

In my opinion, the nerfs were necessary, but a bit too harsh. I mean, there was no reason to nerf Her DTilt. At all. But to be fully honest, I find post-patch Bayo more fun to play compared to how brain-dead she was pre-patch. If we want to push the character further, we need to quit complaining about what she used to be.

 

[Ghidorah14]

The only thing I ask for is to change her uptilt so that the initial hitbox sends them upwards into the 2nd hit. If you catch them with the edge of it, it's kind of useless.

Speaking of uptilt, is it just me, or is this move surprisingly good (when it actually connects properly)? Need to use it more often. Seems like a good anti-air, since it leads into other moves at basically any percent.

 

[Fenny]

The only thing I ask for is to change her uptilt so that the initial hitbox sends them upwards into the 2nd hit. If you catch them with the edge of it, it's kind of useless.

Speaking of uptilt, is it just me, or is this move surprisingly good (when it actually connects properly)? Need to use it more often. Seems like a good anti-air, since it leads into other moves at basically any percent.

Well the edge of U-Tilt combos into ABK (although that's something that I myself have to start getting used to doing more) but the clean hit of it is amazing. Like a Fox caught in it at low percents is getting the crap pistol-whipped out of him because of his fast falling speed.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

The only thing I ask for is to change her uptilt so that the initial hitbox sends them upwards into the 2nd hit. If you catch them with the edge of it, it's kind of useless.

Speaking of uptilt, is it just me, or is this move surprisingly good (when it actually connects properly)? Need to use it more often. Seems like a good anti-air, since it leads into other moves at basically any percent.

The first hit of UTilt is actually quite useful, as it true combos into both Fair and ABK. It's similar to DTilt, but with less horizontal range and more vertical range. You shouldn't try and use it as a replacement for her DTilt, but if you do get the first hit, you can treat it like her DTilt. Her UTilt in general is just a really good move that is underestimated by a lot of people. The second hit even kill confirms into UAir at high percents.

 

[AkiraGr]

Remember to maintain a positive attitude towards everyone here. It's fine to state your opinions, but please be respectful to everyone while doing so.

In my opinion, the nerfs were necessary, but a bit too harsh. I mean, there was no reason to nerf Her DTilt. At all. But to be fully honest, I find post-patch Bayo more fun to play compared to how brain-dead she was pre-patch. If we want to push the character further, we need to quit complaining about what she used to be.

Funny thing that you ask for respect and then go claim that Bayonetta was for brain dead players pre-patch.

Anyway let me analyse my points to make myself more clear of what is brain dead and what needs effort in smash 4.

If you have the experience in fighting games that I do you start noticing some patterns in gameplay regarding the characters. They have three levels of learning curve. They 're the beginner class example: Mario, Yoshi, Dr. Mario, Kirby, Little Mac, Cloud, Diddy, they are simple and easy to use so new players to the game start to understand the mechanics. They are reliable characters, good frame data and they do not die easily especially when you learn good D.I.

Then you have the intermediate class for more experienced players that they want more variety and options in their playstyle. Examples are Sheik, Duck Hunt Duo, Ness, Lucas, Pit that characters have exploits and weaknesses but they can be pretty basic in their execution. Easy combos but they rely on reads and strings.

Then we have the expert class. That rank is for characters that have great strengths and big weaknesses, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Ike, Corrin, Zero Suit, Bayonetta, Ryu. Also, their moves and combos require having mastered the neutral meta and create a playstyle that is suited for this specific characters. Ryu playstyle is different from Mario's, but Mario's playstyle, if you learn him well, will help you play most of the cast pretty good. They have command inputs, bad frame data that do not allow you to make any mistakes especially in Bayonetta's case she can die easily because of her weight.

Bayonetta when she was released her unique gimmick was her aerial combos, her big weakness was her bad frame data on neutral and the specific landing lag she still has after using her aerial specials. Her dABK was a command input which by smash standards is more difficult to apply inside a combo, rather than do an up throw to an up air. Plus her combo game required more command inputs and precise execution because in case of a miss input you would drop the combo instantly and your opponent could easily punish you and you couldn't react at all especially against fast fallers.

So when Bayonetta did a combo let's say sideB to holdB to upTitl to UpB to ABK to 2ABK to UpAir and the opponent couldn't escape with smash DI from UpB or second chance from 2ABK with an Air Dodge or a third chance with an Air dodge from the UpAir, then he deserved all the damage he would get from this combo. The Bayonetta player used 7 inputs 3 that were avoidable.

When I see combos like 5 upTitls from Mario that are inescapable plus a frame trap grab and have 50-50 option to up throw land another 5 up airs and 50-50 kill with an UpB or a Fair, this is what I call a brain-dead character. But I do not complain about it, I know Mario should be an easy character to use because it is for beginners. If high-level players use Mario, of course, the meta for this character would grow more and the ball is in our court to tackle this match up with the expert level characters because he also had specific weakness.

But this mentality is not existent in the majority of the smash scene, and I find it pathetic for whiners to complain for nerfs because they do not want to get better but rather crippling other characters to get on their level. So if a good player has mastered an expert character the average player would complain to limit the options of the expert player so the whiner should stop complaining...

Well, I completely disagree with this point of view. Bayonetta was never overpowered. It was too early to be judged, then no one bothered to learn the match up but we had Sheik and Diddy smashing and carrying players with 50-50 options and down throws with upAirs(two inputs to take a stock versus 7 inputs with command buffered) and when Bayonetta got into the game suddenly her combos were too much to handle...

Now that Bayonetta is broken and expert players coming through after the nerf I still hear complaints about Bayonetta and Witch Time or her UpB.

Well I say it is time to stop and get good or STFU and stop playing competitively.

 

[Ghidorah14]

AkiraGR, I think you're a little too sensitive about the whole nerf. I wasnt crazy about her getting nerfed either (especially so quickly). But the 0-deaths, escapable or not, simply had to go. They were unhealthy for smash4's metagame, and really werent that hard to do. Sure, they took more inputs than say, the hoo-hah, but the reward was often an entire stock at nearly any percent.

I dunno where you've been, but most of, if not all of us have LONG gotten over the nerfs and have adjusted just fine.

 

[AkiraGr]

AkiraGR, I think you're a little too sensitive about the whole nerf. I wasnt crazy about her getting nerfed either (especially so quickly). But the 0-deaths, escapable or not, simply had to go. They were unhealthy for smash4's metagame, and really werent that hard to do. Sure, they took more inputs than say, the hoo-hah, but the reward was often an entire stock at nearly any percent.

I dunno where you've been, but most of, if not all of us have LONG gotten over the nerfs and have adjusted just fine.

No, I am fine, I do not care about the nerf anymore. The thing that I am sensitive to is the mentality that still continues about Bayonetta is caring players. Even now the same group of people that shut their mouths after nerf are still salty when Bayonetta players win tournaments. They are not so vocal anymore but they still try to belittle the effort of good players because of the character.

Thats the only reason I am getting pissed. I adapted just fine and also won the biggest regional in my country with Bayonetta.

 

[Ghidorah14]

No, I am fine, I do not care about the nerf anymore. The thing that I am sensitive to is the mentality that still continues about Bayonetta is caring players. Even now the same group of people that shut their mouths after nerf are still salty when Bayonetta players win tournaments. They are not so vocal anymore but they still try to belittle the effort of good players because of the character.

So? Let them be salty. If you know they're wrong, then there's no reason to be upset. If anything, embrace it and rub it in their faces. It's what Bayonetta would do.

 

[Fenny]

No, I am fine, I do not care about the nerf anymore. The thing that I am sensitive to is the mentality that still continues about Bayonetta is caring players. Even now the same group of people that shut their mouths after nerf are still salty when Bayonetta players win tournaments. They are not so vocal anymore but they still try to belittle the effort of good players because of the character.

Jims are always the loudest. They get fed with a silver spoon and STILL manage to choke on it.

 

[blackghost]

ok so i just sw the y smash corner video any early applications?

 

[ぱみゅ]

GUYS, PLEASE.
This patch changed our way to perceive Bayonetta, for the better or the worse. Whatever the case, we still use the character because we like it, whether Bayonetta herself or her playstyle or both, and that what ultimately really matters.

NOW, why don't we try to keep all the philosophical talk at the Social, and keep this one for metagame advancements?

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

Funny thing that you ask for respect and then go claim that Bayonetta was for brain dead players pre-patch.

Anyway let me analyse my points to make myself more clear of what is brain dead and what needs effort in smash 4.

If you have the experience in fighting games that I do you start noticing some patterns in gameplay regarding the characters. They have three levels of learning curve. They 're the beginner class example: Mario, Yoshi, Dr. Mario, Kirby, Little Mac, Cloud, Diddy, they are simple and easy to use so new players to the game start to understand the mechanics. They are reliable characters, good frame data and they do not die easily especially when you learn good D.I.

Then you have the intermediate class for more experienced players that they want more variety and options in their playstyle. Examples are Sheik, Duck Hunt Duo, Ness, Lucas, Pit that characters have exploits and weaknesses but they can be pretty basic in their execution. Easy combos but they rely on reads and strings.

Then we have the expert class. That rank is for characters that have great strengths and big weaknesses, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Ike, Corrin, Zero Suit, Bayonetta, Ryu. Also, their moves and combos require having mastered the neutral meta and create a playstyle that is suited for this specific characters. Ryu playstyle is different from Mario's, but Mario's playstyle, if you learn him well, will help you play most of the cast pretty good. They have command inputs, bad frame data that do not allow you to make any mistakes especially in Bayonetta's case she can die easily because of her weight.

Bayonetta when she was released her unique gimmick was her aerial combos, her big weakness was her bad frame data on neutral and the specific landing lag she still has after using her aerial specials. Her dABK was a command input which by smash standards is more difficult to apply inside a combo, rather than do an up throw to an up air. Plus her combo game required more command inputs and precise execution because in case of a miss input you would drop the combo instantly and your opponent could easily punish you and you couldn't react at all especially against fast fallers.

So when Bayonetta did a combo let's say sideB to holdB to upTitl to UpB to ABK to 2ABK to UpAir and the opponent couldn't escape with smash DI from UpB or second chance from 2ABK with an Air Dodge or a third chance with an Air dodge from the UpAir, then he deserved all the damage he would get from this combo. The Bayonetta player used 7 inputs 3 that were avoidable.

When I see combos like 5 upTitls from Mario that are inescapable plus a frame trap grab and have 50-50 option to up throw land another 5 up airs and 50-50 kill with an UpB or a Fair, this is what I call a brain-dead character. But I do not complain about it, I know Mario should be an easy character to use because it is for beginners. If high-level players use Mario, of course, the meta for this character would grow more and the ball is in our court to tackle this match up with the expert level characters because he also had specific weakness.

But this mentality is not existent in the majority of the smash scene, and I find it pathetic for whiners to complain for nerfs because they do not want to get better but rather crippling other characters to get on their level. So if a good player has mastered an expert character the average player would complain to limit the options of the expert player so the whiner should stop complaining...

Well, I completely disagree with this point of view. Bayonetta was never overpowered. It was too early to be judged, then no one bothered to learn the match up but we had Sheik and Diddy smashing and carrying players with 50-50 options and down throws with upAirs(two inputs to take a stock versus 7 inputs with command buffered) and when Bayonetta got into the game suddenly her combos were too much to handle...

Now that Bayonetta is broken and expert players coming through after the nerf I still hear complaints about Bayonetta and Witch Time or her UpB.

Well I say it is time to stop and get good or STFU and stop playing competitively.

First of all, I did not mean to offend you by saying that Bayonetta was "more fun to play post-patch when compared to how brain-dead she was pre-patch". I never said that pre-patch Bayonetta was for brain-dead players. I said that she required less thinking to play pre-patch (re: brain-dead) than post-patch, and that I enjoy putting more thought into the combos than before.

I won't go over your rankings of the difficulty of certain characters (Sheik) since, though I do not entirely agree with them, it is irrelevant to what I would like to say.

Now, before I begin these next paragraphs, let me state that I was quite upset when the balance patch was released. I do not agree with all of the changes that were made. I agree when you say that it was too early to be judged, and that people were complaining without trying to adapt. I also think Nintendo could have done a better job balancing her. This is just my reasoning as to why I believe that nerfing her was necessary.

The thing that made pre-patch Bayonetta "brain-dead" was that the risk-reward ratio for her death combos was heavily skewed towards the reward side. Bayonetta's death combos were not especially difficult to set up or perform, even in a heated tournament match. However, it required a much larger effort to escape the death combo as the opponent than to perform it as Bayonetta. I was able to perform them consistently and with ease. The reward of her death combos was the loss of a stock, whether it be at 0% or 50%, with minimal ways to escape it.

You say that Bayonetta's dABK is a command input, and more difficult to apply in a combo. While that may be partially true, it is in the same realm of difficulty as, say, performing a True Shoryuken. Experienced Ryu players have never complained about how hard it is to perform a True Shoryuken, because it really isn't, especially if you practice. Her dABK offered too much of an advantage in terms of comboing for it's "difficulty" to execute in a combo.

What I'm trying to stress is that her death combos were easy to perform and hard to escape. They also had the benefit of ending a stock at any percent. It really didn't make that much of a difference in the fact that there were "lots of inputs" or "chances of a mis-input". They followed the same basic skeleton of moves, meaning that you only needed to know how to do it for it to work. That is why I called them "brain-dead": they did not require much thought to do.

You complain about the characters with 50-50 kill options. You even say that they are "brain-dead", and that her dead combos weren't. Bayonetta's death combos weren't 50-50s. They were all but guaranteed, with very little chance of escape. This the difference between it and 50-50 kill options. The 50-50 kill options are based on reading what the opponent does and punishing accordingly. If you guess wrong, you don't get the kill. This means that you can't just perform the moves and expect them to die. They also only kill at high percents. They require careful planning and predictions as to what the opponent might do. They are not "brain-dead". Bayonetta's death combos weren't like that at all, as explained above.

Your overall point in your post is that Bayonetta was perfectly reasonably pre-patch, and that she did not need to be nerfed at all. The confusing thing about this is that, even without her brain-dead death combos, she is still a perfectly good character. Top players are doing great with her. Pink Fresh won a pretty big tournament and beat the likes of Mr. R and Marss. You even won the biggest national in your country with her (kudos to you for that)! This makes me wonder as to why not just you, but people in general are still complaining about how she shouldn't have been nerfed at all. It really doesn't matter anymore, does it?

No, I am fine, I do not care about the nerf anymore. The thing that I am sensitive to is the mentality that still continues about Bayonetta is caring players. Even now the same group of people that shut their mouths after nerf are still salty when Bayonetta players win tournaments. They are not so vocal anymore but they still try to belittle the effort of good players because of the character.

Thats the only reason I am getting pissed. I adapted just fine and also won the biggest regional in my country with Bayonetta.

I respect how you are standing up for the post-patch Bayonetta players, and you are perfectly correct in saying that she doesn't carry players. But I'm not really seeing this group of people who still get salty about Bayonetta. Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places, but I can't see them. Anyways, like Ghidorah said, just ignore them. They're like the Donald Trump supporters school ground bullies who put down anyone better than them.

Again, I really want to stress that none of this is meant as an insult to you in any way, and my apologies if I end up sounding offensive. This is just my opinion, and it's fine if you don't agree. Just know it's not meant to insult you.

 

[AkiraGr]

First of all, I did not mean to offend you by saying that Bayonetta was "more fun to play post-patch when compared to how brain-dead she was pre-patch". I never said that pre-patch Bayonetta was for brain-dead players. I said that she required less thinking to play pre-patch (re: brain-dead) than post-patch, and that I enjoy putting more thought into the combos than before.

I won't go over your rankings of the difficulty of certain characters (Sheik) since, though I do not entirely agree with them, it is irrelevant to what I would like to say.

Now, before I begin these next paragraphs, let me state that I was quite upset when the balance patch was released. I do not agree with all of the changes that were made. I agree when you say that it was too early to be judged, and that people were complaining without trying to adapt. I also think Nintendo could have done a better job balancing her. This is just my reasoning as to why I believe that nerfing her was necessary.

The thing that made pre-patch Bayonetta "brain-dead" was that the risk-reward ratio for her death combos was heavily skewed towards the reward side. Bayonetta's death combos were not especially difficult to set up or perform, even in a heated tournament match. However, it required a much larger effort to escape the death combo as the opponent than to perform it as Bayonetta. I was able to perform them consistently and with ease. The reward of her death combos was the loss of a stock, whether it be at 0% or 50%, with minimal ways to escape it.

You say that Bayonetta's dABK is a command input, and more difficult to apply in a combo. While that may be partially true, it is in the same realm of difficulty as, say, performing a True Shoryuken. Experienced Ryu players have never complained about how hard it is to perform a True Shoryuken, because it really isn't, especially if you practice. Her dABK offered too much of an advantage in terms of comboing for it's "difficulty" to execute in a combo.

What I'm trying to stress is that her death combos were easy to perform and hard to escape. They also had the benefit of ending a stock at any percent. It really didn't make that much of a difference in the fact that there were "lots of inputs" or "chances of a mis-input". They followed the same basic skeleton of moves, meaning that you only needed to know how to do it for it to work. That is why I called them "brain-dead": they did not require much thought to do.

You complain about the characters with 50-50 kill options. You even say that they are "brain-dead", and that her dead combos weren't. Bayonetta's death combos weren't 50-50s. They were all but guaranteed, with very little chance of escape. This the difference between it and 50-50 kill options. The 50-50 kill options are based on reading what the opponent does and punishing accordingly. If you guess wrong, you don't get the kill. This means that you can't just perform the moves and expect them to die. They also only kill at high percents. They require careful planning and predictions as to what the opponent might do. They are not "brain-dead". Bayonetta's death combos weren't like that at all, as explained above.

Your overall point in your post is that Bayonetta was perfectly reasonably pre-patch, and that she did not need to be nerfed at all. The confusing thing about this is that, even without her brain-dead death combos, she is still a perfectly good character. Top players are doing great with her. Pink Fresh won a pretty big tournament and beat the likes of Mr. R and Marss. You even won the biggest national in your country with her (kudos to you for that)! This makes me wonder as to why not just you, but people in general are still complaining about how she shouldn't have been nerfed at all. It really doesn't matter anymore, does it?



I respect how you are standing up for the post-patch Bayonetta players, and you are perfectly correct in saying that she doesn't carry players. But I'm not really seeing this group of people who still get salty about Bayonetta. Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places, but I can't see them. Anyways, like Ghidorah said, just ignore them. They're like the Donald Trump supporters school ground bullies who put down anyone better than them.

Again, I really want to stress that none of this is meant as an insult to you in any way, and my apologies if I end up sounding offensive. This is just my opinion, and it's fine if you don't agree. Just know it's not meant to insult you.

Like I said before I disagree in a fundamental way with your point of view.

I play fighting games for more than 20 years. Smash 4 is the closest iteration that resembles a fighting game, same logic different mechanics to achieve the same results. Bayonetta was a combo character. She had her very obvious weaknesses and great strengths. Now they removed most of her strengths and her weaknesses became even more lethal. 3 mistakes and you lose a stoke. Especially with strong characters like DK and Bowser.

Let's say that we agree to disagree on the "mindless" definition for a play style. I think more inputs higher possibility for a player to do a mistake even on high level. Smash did not have command inputs since 4. New mechanic and difficult for players that are used to play with single inputs. 50-50 is not a mind game, is pure luck, you guess between 2 options. A mind game starts when you have 3 options to cover or more.

Anyway I did not think you said anything disrespectful to me. But your way of thinking resembles Stockholm syndrome as a Bayonetta player that needs to admit accusations of a majority just to fit in. This is how it looks to me.

By the way our championship starts at 3 of September if you care to see me play. We will update the tournament logs in SmashBoards as well. Check the trailer.

 

[Funbot28]

So yesterday Salem was able to win Collision XIV with his Bayonetta and his showings are leading me to believe that he is the best Bayonetta at this point in time due to the mastery he has on her follow-ups. Here are two incredible vids showcasing what Bayo can still do, prooving she is still viable enough to solo win a tournament:

Salem vs Tweek

Salem vs Zero

I think this puts to rest all the people claiming htat she is not viable to win a tournament lol