Patch 1.11

[KuroganeHammer]

Shield hitlag is the same for bowser and the shielding opponent so it doesn't matter

 

[Jerodak]

KuroganeHammer I thought so. So my calculations were fine other than switching the order on a few values?

Now for aerials, I'm guessing I'd add the last frame hit to landing lag + 1 for the end lag value?

 

[MrEh]

Bomb 2 has basically been normalized to 13 frames of blockstun as opposed to the 7-14 it was before.

Any fringe cases of being able to spot dodge or roll after Bomb 2 are probably gone, so the shockwave might be guaranteed now. We're living the shield break dream.

 

[S_B]

Bomb 2 has basically been normalized to 13 frames of blockstun as opposed to the 7-14 it was before.

Any fringe cases of being able to spot dodge or roll after Bomb 2 are probably gone, so the shockwave might be guaranteed now. We're living the shield break dream.

Isn't this all assuming that the opponent is dumb enough to stand there and shield it instead of rolling (or even just taking the hit because it's better than getting your shield broken)?

...Or am I missing something here?

 

[a stray cat]

Isn't this all assuming that the opponent is dumb enough to stand there and shield it instead of rolling (or even just taking the hit because it's better than getting your shield broken)?

...Or am I missing something here?

With some dair conditioning, you can actually bait out the shield below quite often. Make sure to use BB low though, to give them the minimal amount of time to react.

It's been working for me in online friendlies and on FG, and I've managed to land the old BB this way in tourney as well. It just wasn't worth it before because they could actually release shield between hits 1 and 2, and then take only the light landing damage. Or, if they were a heavy character with a strong shield the shield just wouldn't pop at all.

 

[Jerodak]

S_B As just one example, you could have read a shield attempt and punished it.

 

[MrEh]

Isn't this all assuming that the opponent is dumb enough to stand there and shield it instead of rolling (or even just taking the hit because it's better than getting your shield broken)

Players shield stuff all the time. I broke DKWill's shield, irl, just last night. Doesn't matter if you're good or not. It could happen.

(I think he mentioned that he tried rolling after shielding Bomb 2, but the game didn't let him. It's possible the blockstun changes have made the blockstring of Bomb 2 into Bomb 3 real.)

 

[S_B]

With some dair conditioning, you can actually bait out the shield below quite often. Make sure to use BB low though, to give them the minimal amount of time to react.

It's been working for me in online friendlies and on FG, and I've managed to land the old BB this way in tourney as well. It just wasn't worth it before because they could actually release shield between hits 1 and 2, and then take only the light landing damage. Or, if they were a heavy character with a strong shield the shield just wouldn't pop at all.

Ahh, understand.

I'm used to anyone worth their salt being too quick to ever get hit like that, or jumping and hitting Bowser before he even begins to descend.

However, it's nice to know the option is there and the reward is probably a stock. Bowser needs more situations where he takes a risk but gets a kill if it pays off...

 

[MrEh]

At the end of the day, if the blockstring of Bomb 2 into Bomb 3 is real, it doesn't change too much.

However, being able to guarantee shield breaks if Bomb 2 is blocked is a rather nice thing, since it ups consistency. I've had so many players shield Bomb 2, and then be able to roll before Bomb 3 hits.

It's just nice to be properly rewarded for getting Bomb 2 shielded in the first place. (if the blockstring is real in the first place, still no idea)



EDIT: Jab 1's worst case scenarios are now a bit safer on shield by around 3 frames. Best case scenarios are still roughly the same as old Jab 1. Overall, probably a minor buff to using Jab 1 in footsies.

 

[S_B]

At the end of the day, if the blockstring of Bomb 2 into Bomb 3 is real, it doesn't change too much.

However, being able to guarantee shield breaks if Bomb 2 is blocked is a rather nice thing, since it ups consistency. I've had so many players shield Bomb 2, and then be able to roll before Bomb 3 hits.

It's just nice to be properly rewarded for getting Bomb 2 shielded in the first place. (if the blockstring is real in the first place, still no idea)

I'll definitely take it.

A little while ago, we were talking about ways to maybe guarantee some kind of shield pressure into a break with Bowser and nothing really came of it.

Now, maybe there's a chain of attacks that CAN give us a break if we land them all in the right order. Bowser can have general crap for frame date and still be a threat if he can reliably break shields...

 

[MrEh]

The shieldstun changes appear to have made it impossible for your opponent to roll or spot dodge inbetween shielding Dtilt1 and Dtilt2. In this scenario, Dtilt2 is also 4 frames safer on shield than it was prepatch.

Considering how Dtilt was already safe to begin with, this is hilarious. (Not confirmed 100% yet, but I'm working on it. If anyone else can confirm, post.)

 

[Jerodak]

Thanks for checking, now we have better chances at shield breaking without down b.

 

[MrEh]

Considering how Dtilt does 25 effing damage, I'm looking forward to seeing how much shield pressure we can output.

 

[A Giggling Turtle]

I expect it will take more time, but has anyone been working on how much safer Bowser's aerials are on shields?

 

[MrEh]

They're all around the same to be honest. The worst case scenarios for frame disadvantage are slightly better, but you're still gonna get punished regardless.

Nair is particular is safer in most cases partially because of the blockstun changes, but more-so because it just lags 4 frames less on landing. But it's still so ridiculously unsafe that it makes you wonder why they even bothered. Still, better than nothing.

 

[Jerodak]

Is air fortress a blockstring now?

 

[S_B]

But it's still so ridiculously unsafe that it makes you wonder why they even bothered. Still, better than nothing.

Yeah, if I wanted any buff to Nair, it would've been to make the damn move happen fast enough to save us from combos...

Is there an actual situation where Nair is ideal to use? It just seems like a bad option in any circumstance...

And yes, it's still stupidly punishable when used over the stage (except on full hop)...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

EDIT: Jab 1's worst case scenarios are now a bit safer on shield by around 3 frames. Best case scenarios are still roughly the same as old Jab 1. Overall, probably a minor buff to using Jab 1 in footsies.

Could you tell me what you mean by "worst and best case scenarios"? Jab deals 5 damage at any range. And damage is the only factor in calculating shieldstun. Move staling can change the amount of blockstun, but jab should be 3 frames safer on block until then.

The only way to ideally jab somebody's shield is to hit them with the farthest hitbox, since Bowser would be out of range of any non-tether shield grab. This is in contrast to the most ideal way to jab somebody on hit, since the added knockback of closer hits gives us more frame advantage.

Some of you are asking about block advantage for aerials, and that's going to be difficult. You'd have to work out various scenarios. Did the aerial get autocancelled, did Bowser suffer landing lag, did he not land at all, like the opponent was shielding while on a platform or ledge (and instead we have to look at the aerial's FAF). I'd totally help you guys in getting numbers for Bowser's moves but I'm rolling with pre-patch on my Wii U to help confirm changes for the patch thread. Maybe I could grab a few shieldstun numbers from pre-patch for us to compare to, but I always used this as a framework. I've never seen these numbers wrong before.

 

[A Giggling Turtle]

Yeah, if I wanted any buff to Nair, it would've been to make the damn move happen fast enough to save us from combos...

Is there an actual situation where Nair is ideal to use? It just seems like a bad option in any circumstance...

And yes, it's still stupidly punishable when used over the stage (except on full hop)...

Agreed, having a damage buff and slight landing lag reduction is not the buff to make Nair any more useful in my eyes than bizarrely situational. I have some success using it to juggle characters like D3, certain other heavies/combo food characters, but other than that, I have not found any other use for it.

Really, we do need the faster startup on an aerial. If not Nair, Fair. Bowser gets hit too hard in the air as it is, with his problems landing.

 

[pitfall356]

Nair does ridiculous damage. We want a tool to stop people from comboing us, but what they're giving us is akin to an aerial smash attack without the launch power. I doubt they're going to rework nair and gives us a combo breaker, I think we're just stuck with a massive damage, lingering hitbox aerial. As much as I want the anticombo, I just don't think we're going to get it, guys.

 

[A Giggling Turtle]

Nair does ridiculous damage. We want a tool to stop people from comboing us, but what they're giving us is akin to an aerial smash attack without the launch power. I doubt they're going to rework nair and gives us a combo breaker, I think we're just stuck with a massive damage, lingering hitbox aerial. As much as I want the anticombo, I just don't think we're going to get it, guys.

It would definitely be useful if it could be used out of a shorthop, but I get what you're saying. I just wish Bowser wasn't the easiest character in the game to juggle.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I wish the upward momentum Bowser got for Dair would activate if he wasn't getting juggled. That way we could mash Down air to escape combo strings. But both the upward and downward momentum of the move doesn't work if Bowser is using it just after being hit.

As for Nair, maybe we ought to try using it to shark people from under the platforms. Increased shieldstun plus reduced landing lag should make this a viable option without getting punished.

Edit: One more thing. I was tipped off on day 1 of the patch that Bowser had a frame speed multiplier on an unspecified action. I've found it. Fire Shot has reduced endlag. Startup is unaffected, but Bowser stops firing faster in this update. They really want us to change our minds on this move, eh?

 

[pitfall356]

Honestly, while I was ****ing around with it I thought it ended faster too but I didn't want to say anything and get shot down with placebo. For a long range projectile that's weak and slow to have huge endlag is ridiculous. I wouldn't mind it being useful but right now I still think plain FB is his best option.

 

[S_B]

Nair does ridiculous damage. We want a tool to stop people from comboing us, but what they're giving us is akin to an aerial smash attack without the launch power.

That's if all of the hitboxes connect, though, which doesn't usually happen. I find I'm lucky to get three to connect, and two is 12%, which is less than Fair (I believe).

And they can make fire shot one-hit KO and it still doesn't really matter, what with how far out of favor customs have fallen with most tournaments at this point... :\

Maybe they'll have them at next year's evo and people will start practicing with them for a while again...

 

[A Giggling Turtle]

I wish the upward momentum Bowser got for Dair would activate if he wasn't getting juggled. That way we could mash Down air to escape combo strings. But both the upward and downward momentum of the move doesn't work if Bowser is using it just after being hit.

As for Nair, maybe we ought to try using it to shark people from under the platforms. Increased shieldstun plus reduced landing lag should make this a viable option without getting punished.

Edit: One more thing. I was tipped off on day 1 of the patch that Bowser had a frame speed multiplier on an unspecified action. I've found it. Fire Shot has reduced endlag. Startup is unaffected, but Bowser stops firing faster in this update. They really want us to change our minds on this move, eh?

The Dair change would be fantastic, I don't say buff because I don't know why they took it out in the first place. I already use it when I'm close to the ground to escape a few combo strings.

Nair I've done some on Tourney mode in Battlefield. While it seemed to cover the upper platform pretty well, it's going to take some experimentation to see if this will outclass uptilt on the lower ones, even with the lowerish landing lag.

Honestly, I wish customs were used on one side, since Bowser's make his mobility Godlike. On the other hand, some characters have terrible ones, so it makes sense to buff them. Either way, it's clear where Sakurai stands. I would have gone for reduced endlag on FB instead though tbh...

 

[a stray cat]

Landed a Bowser Bomb on shield in tourney today. Last stock game 3.

It's real boys!

 

[MrEh]

Is there an actual situation where Nair is ideal to use? It just seems like a bad option in any circumstance...

Shield pressure on platforms or catching airdodges in strange places.

 

[pitfall356]

So is this it, then? I'm just dying with hope that there will be a little more.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So is this it, then? I'm just dying with hope that there will be a little more.

Recent datamines may or may not mean 3 more characters and 2 more stages are planned for addition. I suspect more changes to happen in the future.

So any tough guy changes?

 

[Xandercosm]

You know... F-air's landing lag feels a bit less laggy too. Is it true?

Maybe, Maybe...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

They're all around the same to be honest. The worst case scenarios for frame disadvantage are slightly better, but you're still gonna get punished regardless.

Nair is particular is safer in most cases partially because of the blockstun changes, but more-so because it just lags 4 frames less on landing. But it's still so ridiculously unsafe that it makes you wonder why they even bothered. Still, better than nothing.

Pretty much this, people are punishing me still for fair and I cry

 

[Jerodak]

I'm pretty sure B-air is the safest on block. It also does good shield damage. Was shield regeneration changed too?

 

[S_B]

Curious to see how this pans out for Bowser in tournaments.

All of my matches are online where latency naturally extends the duration of shield stun anyway so I can't really get a feel for how this will change the game...

 

[A Giggling Turtle]

By the way, Dair to Dtilt breaks a full shield if they keep it up long enough. And then an uncharged F smash will break it again if you want to smell the roses and take your time pushing the Greninja over to the side of the stage.

Don't ask how I know this.

 

[S_B]

Is air fortress a blockstring now?

Good question, but it'd likely be very tough to test, since Bowser would probably rise out of it before half the hits even connected, unless he was using it on DK, D3 or himself, I mean...

 

[Karsticles]

I think Nair has always been great. Massive damage after a baited air dodge, and hard to air dodge as well.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Nair irritates me because it lacks range.

Hopefully next patch is the attributes patch and we get a faster falling speed/faster air accel or something.

Also I'm leaving 5ever so I updated the frame data page again this morning.

 

[S_B]

Nair irritates me because it lacks range.

Lacks range, has crap for priority so it gets beat by most other aerials, is Bowser's weakest killing move next to jab 1, and needs to be egregiously well sweetspotted for even half of the hits to connect together, meaning most other aerials would've probably done more damage.

And the sad part is that I could forgive EVERY...LAST...ONE of these flaws if it it only pushed people DOWN instead of popping them up in the air. Then it would be an amazing ledge-guarding tool, at least...

Right now, using this to ledgeguard anyone with a meteor is basically begging to have our fat, scaly ass spiked straight to the underworld...