Patch 1.11

[S_B]

I misread what that frame speed multiplier was referring to.

So Nair DOES have reduced ending lag on landing? It still feels like an eternity to me...

The shield stun thing is huge. I'm stuck at work, but I've been dying to test. Can someone record a video of Bowser's jab followups on shield, because jab to down-b, our loyal frame trap, had a 3 frame window for them to react previously. The amount of shield stun pushes jab's shield stun way over meaning it's quite possibly a shield break combo now. I am dying at the fact I can't test right now.

I don't think it is.

I tried testing it against CPUs, and while it was difficult to get the CPUs to shield instead of perfect shield, I believe I was able to jab a shield and then followup with a down+B a few times with the CPU still being able to drop shield and move...

Obviously, human testing would be superior, here, but I had no one to test it with and I need to go back to work now...

We may be overestimating the amount of shieldstun a single jab is generating...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Guys, jab only had two frames of shieldstun before. If it were increased to, say, 5, then we're only 3 frames safer on shield. Frame advantage would still be negative for us. -2 for shield drop, and -9 for OoS as opposed to -5 and -12.

 

[S_B]

Also, Nair has indeed been reduced in landing lag... (from MOI-ARI)

http://5secondsapp.com/5/sec.ond?s=3523f876fb31c5f0bd6a670e56496692.gif 1.1.0 Bowser Nair
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http://5secondsapp.com/5/sec.ond?s=39908779f985fdcb9b340dfe7d84aa4c.gif 1.1.1 Bowser Nair

Every little bit helps, but this is still pretty insignificant, IMO...

 

[MOI-ARI]

Also, Nair has indeed been reduced in landing lag...

http://5secondsapp.com/5/sec.ond?s=3523f876fb31c5f0bd6a670e56496692.gif 1.1.0 Bowser Nair
-
http://5secondsapp.com/5/sec.ond?s=39908779f985fdcb9b340dfe7d84aa4c.gif 1.1.1 Bowser Nair

Every little bit helps, but this is still pretty insignificant, IMO...

Nice gifs. :->

But hey at we also got that nair damage increase. thats pretty good.

-

Though it seems the sheild stun increase is the true hottness this time around. I need to tinker with that later.

 

[S_B]

Nice gifs. :->

Attributed correctly.

But hey at we also got that nair damage increase. thats pretty good.

Eh, Nair is still all around a bad move, and that's in the face of it having a chance to be not only a GOOD move but a move that could very well give Bowser something he BADLY needs: an escape from combo pressure.

Using it over the stage is a bad idea because, even with the reduced lag, it's still exceedingly punishable. Off the stage, Fair and Bair are generally better options and can possibly land you a stock. If Nair pushed people down instead of popping them up (ala the Weegee 'nado), then hells YES, it would be an AMAZING edgeguard tool.

All it does now via edgeguarding is put the opponent above Bowser where they have a better chance to spike him. :\

This patch is depressing: no changes to FB to at least make it on par with 'Zard's, no grab followups, and characters that pressured shields in the past (aka Sheik) will now be even WORSE for Bowser because of how much longer it will take him to react out of shield. Seriously, Sheik was already able to beat shield grabs half the time anyway because her NEXT attack traded with the grab...

I dunno. MAYBE Bowser has some hidden potential with shieldstun in here somewhere, but I'm not holding my breath...

Then again, if shieldstun scaled by WEIGHT, meaning Bowser always suffered the LEAST shieldstun, I'd do everything for Sakurai from give him a back massage to take his ugly, hygiene-challenged sister out for a steak dinner and I'd even call her the next day!!!

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Attributed correctly.



Eh, Nair is still all around a bad move, and that's in the face of it having a chance to be not only a GOOD move but a move that could very well give Bowser something he BADLY needs: an escape from combo pressure.

Using it over the stage is a bad idea because, even with the reduced lag, it's still exceedingly punishable. Off the stage, Fair and Bair are generally better options and can possibly land you a stock. If Nair pushed people down instead of popping them up (ala the Weegee 'nado), then hells YES, it would be an AMAZING edgeguard tool.

All it does now via edgeguarding is put the opponent above Bowser where they have a better chance to spike him. :\

This patch is depressing: no changes to FB to at least make it on par with 'Zard's, no grab followups, and characters that pressured shields in the past (aka Sheik) will now be even WORSE for Bowser because of how much longer it will take him to react out of shield. Seriously, Sheik was already able to beat shield grabs half the time anyway because her NEXT attack traded with the grab...

I dunno. MAYBE Bowser has some hidden potential with shieldstun in here somewhere, but I'm not holding my breath...

The way I see it, shiek was already safe on shield. We weren't punishing perfectly spaced areals to begin with, so why worry about it?
On the other hand, bowser, who had no safe options on shields might acutally have a funtional neutral game now.

Lets not start getting all depressed yet!

 

[MagiusNecros]

If shield stun is increased that means our jab traps got that much better on shield abusers.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Typos... >_>

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Is down B still rollable before the landing hit? People could drop their shield between the 20% hit and the 11% landing hit before.

Potentially it breaks shields in one hit now?

These are just shower thoughts, I have to go to work.

 

[S_B]

Is down B still rollable before the landing hit? People could drop their shield between the 20% hit and the 11% landing hit before.

Potentially it breaks shields in one hit now?

These are just shower thoughts, I have to go to work.

See, THIS needs to be tested for sure, and if this is the case, I'll be a lot happier...

 

[Jerodak]

Is still it possible to safely roll or spotdodge between both hits of dtilt on shield? I've always found that rather annoying.

Also what about firebreath? Can that be rolled out of on shield?

Are any aerials safer? Particularly fast-fall auto-cancel f-air and b-air.

Nair does 24% now? Can it be rolled away from on shield? I remember you could normally shield then perfect shield between the hits previously, or something to that effect.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Theoretically the shieldstun should have increased to 11, do shields deplete in HP while in shieldstun?

Occasionally shields survive the landing hit and it bothers me.

 

[S_B]

Theoretically the shieldstun should have increased to 11, do shields deplete in HP while in shieldstun?

Occasionally shields survive the landing hit and it bothers me.

I believe a completely full shield will always survive both hits of bomb, but like, ANY previous loss in shield and it should break.

 

[S_B]

BTW, my NNID is TheRealSmashBro and my skype is SmashBroh is anyone wants to help me test these Bowser changes.

I'm on RIGHT now.

If Bowser catching someone shielding instead of powershielding with Bomb is now a guaranteed break, then he may have just passed DK, seriously...

EDIT: Someone in the Bowser skype group is saying you can easily roll away after shielding the first hit. I'd still like to test autocancelled aerials and whatnot to see if Bowser has anything safe on shield...

 

[33percentgod]

Bowsercide is a lot more random and makes it much more likely that Bowser will die first.

 

[Big Sean]

I believe a completely full shield will always survive both hits of bomb, but like, ANY previous loss in shield and it should break.

Wait are you saying the new behavior? I've got about a half dozen stocks in tournament where move 1 was bowser bombing a completely fresh shield. All the 3 hits have to hit though.

 

[S_B]

Wait are you saying the new behavior? I've got about a half dozen stocks in tournament where move 1 was bowser bombing a completely fresh shield. All the 3 hits have to hit though.

Maybe these are situations where one of the three didn't hit, but I swore I saw fresh shields survive...

Could be wrong, though.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Falling and landing hit should have enough shield damage to break a shield if they've held their shield for even a few frames.

But yeah in previous patches sometimes shields randomly survive. Perhaps it's a stale move negation thing.

 

[S_B]

Falling and landing hit should have enough shield damage to break a shield if they've held their shield for even a few frames.

But yeah in previous patches sometimes shields randomly survive. Perhaps it's a stale move negation thing.

Could be.

I just SWEAR I've grounded bombed onto non-powershields and been like, "What?! That didn't break??"

In other news, I can't confirm if anything from Bowser is safe on shield yet. Anyone found someone to test this with?

 

[a stray cat]

Alright guys, you were right. Nair has a new lag of 20 frames from 24, counted from 60FPS video capture instead of from tapping go.

 

[a stray cat]

Bowser Bomb may now always break non-perfect-shields on hit. On DK, Bowser hits the ground 15 frames after the first hit, and breaks the shield. Even if you let go of the shield button just after the first hit, the second hits on shield.

Weirdly, DK seems to be in shieldlag for a whopping 25 frames from the first hit of Bowser Bomb (ledge canceled the second hit). How does that work out?

 

[S_B]

Bowser Bomb may now always break non-perfect-shields on hit.

I've heard...not?

I'll be GLAD to skype call someone and test this. Any takers?

 

[pitfall356]

If jab to bomb breaks shields guaranteed... I don't even know, man.

 

[Big Sean]

a stray cat and I verified it. Aerial bowser bomb breaks shields guaranteed. Welcome to the future everybody.

 

[a stray cat]

*Guaranteed if you hit close enough to their center of mass. If you're too far from their center you'll shield poke them with the second hit.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Another potential issue that may have plagued us in the past is the height of the characters we're bombing. If we bomb a taller, shielding target like Ganon, our falling hit connects sooner than if we bombed Game& Watch. Thus, the amount of frames between falling and landing hits connecting would be increased. This is what I always thought would explain people's compaints of people escaping the landing hit. As for Bomb not breaking a shield in one go, move stale negation may very well be the answer. Because I know even Slip Bomb, a version of the move with no rising hit could break shields in one go, and that move is just falling and landing hits.

Good to hear the shieldstun increase is giving people more confidence in Bomb.

 

[a stray cat]

Just one-shot a DDD's shield several times in FG with aerial BB. DDD is one of the character's whose shield would have survived in the past if it was near full, so it's looking pretty good!

Tested on Ganon in training just now too, and it seems to break his shield in one go as well, with no way to roll out after the first hit. How does the shieldlag formula work with +shield damage? Where do DK's 25 frames of shieldlag come from?

 

[pitfall356]

It could be possible that they made it so that BB has fixed shieldlag to prevent people from rolling/dropping their shield?

 

[Jerodak]

KuroganeHammer please help me here, my calculations must be off.

Calculating aerial advantage on shield.

(landing lag - last frame hit) = x

(Damage/1.8)+3 = y [floor]

Advantage = y - x

Is this correct? If not, what's the correct formula?

Oh, and alternatively you could swap landing lag with (auto-cancel + 6) right?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

KuroganeHammer please help me here, my calculations must be off.

Calculating aerial advantage on shield.

(landing lag - last frame hit) = x

(Damage/1.8)+3 = y [floor]

Advantage = y - x

Is this correct? If not, what's the correct formula?

Oh, and alternatively you could swap landing lag with (auto-cancel + 6) right?

Hit Frame - End Frame + Shield Stun + Shield Hitlag - Hitlag = shield advantage

 

[S_B]

Just one-shot a DDD's shield several times in FG with aerial BB. DDD is one of the character's whose shield would have survived in the past if it was near full, so it's looking pretty good!

Tested on Ganon in training just now too, and it seems to break his shield in one go as well, with no way to roll out after the first hit. How does the shieldlag formula work with +shield damage? Where do DK's 25 frames of shieldlag come from?

Do mean the first hit of FALLING bomb or RISING bomb?

I've been told that people can still roll out after the first hit of RISING bomb on a non-perfect shield.

 

[A Giggling Turtle]

It could be possible that they made it so that BB has fixed shieldlag to prevent people from rolling/dropping their shield?

I don't believe so, not Rising Bomb at least. From what I've seen on For Glory, it's still possible to drop your shield or roll after the first hit.

 

[a stray cat]

Do mean the first hit of FALLING bomb or RISING bomb?

I've been told that people can still roll out after the first hit of RISING bomb on a non-perfect shield.

I don't believe so, not Rising Bomb at least. From what I've seen on For Glory, it's still possible to drop your shield or roll after the first hit.

Yeah I mean the falling portion. In the past landing the falling portion on shield without the rising portion wouldn't always break shields, but it seems to always break them now.

 

[Big Sean]

Do mean the first hit of FALLING bomb or RISING bomb?

I've been told that people can still roll out after the first hit of RISING bomb on a non-perfect shield.

Remember that Bowser Bomb has two quick rising hits. It's still very easy for someone to roll between hits 2 and 3. I think what a stray cat 's theory is is that rolling between hits 1 and 2 is now impossible because of the shield stun of hit 1.

Edit NVM, this was answered while i was typing ....

 

[MagiusNecros]

Might test the authenticity of Aerial Bombs against everyone later. A powershielding CPU on 3DS isn't getting me the test zone I want.

 

[S_B]

Yeah I mean the falling portion. In the past landing the falling portion on shield without the rising portion wouldn't always break shields, but it seems to always break them now.

Oh, I had never seen anyone roll out after the first falling hit previously...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Alright did some testing. Rising Bomb you can drop shield or roll if you block the rising hit.

Now Aerial Bomb if they block the first hit they are stuck in shield so it ALWAYS forces a break.

I tested this on Mario a middleweight and Bowser who has the biggest shield.

At 1/4 speed for accuracy on Aerial Bomb they were unable to drop their shield.

The only way to to avoid Aerial Bomb is Perfect Shield and roll/dodge/not being there.

So I think Bowser Bomb at this point is much better then Slipbomb which I may test later.

 

[S_B]

Looking back at what I said earlier, I think this patch isn't a good judge of what may lie in store for Bowser's future.

With the global change to shield mechanics and VERY few sizable buffs or nerfs to characters across the board (except Weegee...), it's pretty clear that this patch's major change was the shield stun and they're going to wait to see how everything pans out after adding such a huge change.

This change both helps and hurts heavy characters. Basically, if we do anything except perfect shield, our advances against campy characters are going to be completely stalled, but our attacks will hopefully be a smidgen safer on shield.

Speaking of which, can anyone confirm if an auto cancelled, fast fall, SH Fair is safe on shield with good spacing or not?

That would be HUGE for Bowser...

 

[Jerodak]

Hit Frame - End Frame + Shield Stun + Shield Hitlag - Hitlag = shield advantage

Ok, I know how to calculate shield stun but not hitlag or shield hitlag. What are the formula for those?

 

[a stray cat]

Looking back at what I said earlier, I think this patch isn't a good judge of what may lie in store for Bowser's future.

With the global change to shield mechanics and VERY few sizable buffs or nerfs to characters across the board (except Weegee...), it's pretty clear that this patch's major change was the shield stun and they're going to wait to see how everything pans out after adding such a huge change.

This change both helps and hurts heavy characters. Basically, if we do anything except perfect shield, our advances against campy characters are going to be completely stalled, but our attacks will hopefully be a smidgen safer on shield.

Speaking of which, can anyone confirm if an auto cancelled, fast fall, SH Fair is safe on shield with good spacing or not?

That would be HUGE for Bowser...

Seeing as fair's last hitbox is 14, and it's autocancel window is >31, you would have a minimum of 17 frames of you floating around in the air after the hitbox to even autocancel. Then, add hard landing lag since you fastfell and you get 6 more frames of lag. If you manage to hit the 13% hitbox of fair (I think this one's actually the shoulder hitbox, so it probably won't be this one) you'll get ~10 frames of shieldstun, but I don't know how to calculate the amount of shieldlag Bowser gets out of a fair. Let's say it's ~5 frames, add in the 7 frames of shield drop and you get ~-11 frames of advantage on a well spaced fair. Enough for most dash attacks/dash grabs.