Patch 1.1.6 Released: Bayonetta Hit With Nerf Hammer

Late Thursday evening, Nintendo released what could possibly be the final patch for Smash 4. The patch notes had been leaked ahead of time by Twitter user @RandomTBush, revealing that only one major change had occurred within the game: Bayonetta had been nerfed as hard as any other character in the history of Smash 4.

PG | ESAM takes a look at Bayonetta's re-worked specials
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Apparently Nintendo had heard the very vocal voices in the community calling for Bayonetta nerfs and decided to rework the character in a major way. The changes seem to be specifically designed to prevent her from setting up and pulling off her ladder combos, which could be devastating for the character. Her D-tilt has had its hitbox significantly reduced. Both Witch-Twist as well as After-Burner Kick have had their SDI multipliers doubled, which should make it significantly easier for opponents to escape. Also worth noting, is that her hitboxes for several iterations of these moves have been shrunk. Her D-air has also received a nerf in the form of a reduction in knockback growth. You can find the full patch notes here.

Top Smashers seem to be going in both directions on whether or not Bayonetta will remain a top-character:

This nerf to Bayonetta was great. I think she is still a really good character. The best? Probably not.

— NAKAT (@darknakat) May 20, 2016

Bayonetta is not top tier anymore. Like, not even close. MAAAAYBE top 20.

— ESAM (@imESAM) May 20, 2016

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Bayonetta nerfed a bunch. Still one of the better characters, but nothing like before. I think Rosa/ZSS/Diddy are the best rn, then sheik.

— Jason Zimmerman (@MVG_Mew2King) May 19, 2016

deer nintendoo

i payed 5.99 for bayonetta and you've ruined her

i would like a refund please

yours truely

kuroganne gammsr

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) May 20, 2016

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What do you think of the impending Bayonetta nerfs? Will she still be viable? Are you disappointed that no other characters were changed? Is this the final Smash 4 patch? Let us know in the comments below.

 

Everyone is flipping **** and I'm just here like no need to worry about my characters being touched. No one really knows her placement until the dedicated players put some work in and see what can still be done. I'm just happy that I can up-tilt her upwards angled ABK with Falcon.

 

But in all seriousness we can all agree that at this point, Bayo just sucks, and may or may not be a waste of money. Watch the next patch there gonna focus only on Cloud, if not Corrin.

She's not garbage, but she's not going to be top 8/16 in national level anytime soon (and maybe at best one or two each at the lowest spot). Not everyone buy or play DLC characters for tournaments, especially if they're causal. Also, both Cloud and Corrin were nerfed a few patches ago. So this may be a stopping point for now until any huge bug comes into play.

 

if any of you didn't check SHES IN 28th TIER

thank god i didn't get her

DONT CITE EVENTHUBS THANKS

 

in my opinion im glad bayo got nerfed but i still feel like shes still a very good character in the right hands of course

 

In the right hands, tch no thanks, I don't want to win with someone that can literally slow you down. Besides, I'm only good at Bayo not like those crazy players like Salem.

 

In the right hands, tch no thanks, I don't want to win with someone that can literally slow you down. Besides, I'm only good at Bayo not like those crazy players like Salem.

Bayo isn't bad now lol stop pretending she is how do you feel Dedede or Jiggs mains feel having the only character for their playstyle being so unviable, Bayonetta is still like high tier at least.

 

Bayo isn't bad now lol stop pretending she is how do you feel Dedede or Jiggs mains feel having the only character for their playstyle being so unviable, Bayonetta is still like high tier at least.

No I didn't mean the player, I meant the opponent. And I can admit, she is good but I'm nowhere near capable of her, I prefer the other final DLC character. ()

 

if any of you didn't check SHES IN 28th TIER

thank god i didn't get her

So you buy characters depending of their tier placement?

 

It's kind of insulting for you to assert knowing more about the character and the implications of how the nerfs actually messed her up than the people who play her.

It's also kind of insulting for you to try and shame someone for effectively saying something you yourself said hours earlier; but hey, as you said, maybe it's all just "proof that Bayonetta didn't attract the best crowd."



And I'm sure you can list them if prompted?

Diagonal Dive Kick is seemingly useless.

You can DI below Witch Twist now. Imagine successfully hitting a combo, only for a ZSS to DI below you and immediately up-b you to death.



She couldn't 30% - 50% for cheap or take whole stocks off of an easy punish before this, either, so I doubt anyone who picked her up for that reason stayed for long; the data in that pie chart you posted in the other thread would agree with me there. It's not the character's fault because so few people bothered to learn how to play against her, not when the people complaining were largely unable articulate the parts of the character that were legitimately problematic. (Diagonal Dive Kick on shield being absurdly, if not completely, safe, for example)

Edge guarding / Ledge trumping is the only part of her character that was relatively untouched.

I'm honestly under the opinion that the people who keep pointing to W. Time as some holy grail of a move has never actually watched what a Bayonetta does in tournament.

She also has a mediocre neutral. Decent is somewhat too kind. Poor approach options, heel slide that is easily exploitable now that people will actually take the time to learn how it works.

She was not defined by 0-to-death combos that she didn't have. She was defined by being able to string together her specials in the air. That at some percentage (typically around 80% before the combo hit) could lead to a KO was not what defined her. But in order to get rid of the latter, they threw out the former.

Stop implying that if people stop using her it's because she lost KO combos, was the only reason people used her, or that all the patch did was make what she already have "manageable" while keeping the character true. It's both factually untrue and logically inconsistent. The entire design philosophy outlined in her developer overview video, what made her so true to her source material and why so many people voted for her inclusion, has been gutted.

She has weaknesses now that are downright bizarre in how they work without the corresponding strength to match up with it, moves that simply don't work anymore, hitboxes that don't make any sense. There's a future for the character, but it's going to involve utilizing less of her moveset, not more of it.

In a lot of ways she's more like a regression of the Samus buffs.

This!!! So much this. You said everything as perfectly as possible.

Most people never played Bayonetta they just Bandwagon the hate and the mob mentality on social media.

Us dedicated Bayonetta players did nothing as well to explain to the public the weakness of the character like you stated but today in this miiverse thread I created about the 1.1.6 Patch it was en lighting when I was trying to explain SDI.

They literally told me:

https://miiverse.nintendo.net/replies/AYMHAAACAAADVHlNLX-aDA

So the mentality with some people is to ruin a game for the own pleasure.

If you want to have fun then play casual with items with your friend. If you can't enjoy competitive play which most of us do and we even enjoy when we lose because we get motivation to improve, then shut up about nerfs.

The game has more modes to play than for glory or with competitive rules.

Why the balance team listen to this stuff I cannot understand.

But call me crazy, this Bayonetta drama was well orchestrated by ZeRo and his bias opinion on the character because he couldn't deal with the match up.

Even Mew2King complained about Bayo after Ryo was destroyed by a very good Bayonetta player. Both supported the Spanish fiasco about the ban, also the Russian smash community joke post about a ban on Reddit which they admitted it was fake and I respect them for that.

All media caught fire with this controversy resulted with a angry mob that decided to pass judgement on a character based on hear say... No one even came out to make a correction statement about this situation. And the show went on building more discomfort and rage on the character because of the bias.

Plus the so called "injury" from ZeRo that kept him of the tournaments but when the nerf was hit Bayonetta hard he miraculously recovered and joined the tour "Get on my level" on the last minute.

http://shoryuken.com/2016/05/20/zer...te-spot-in-goml-thanks-to-zinotos-withdrawal/

Sorry if it looks like a huge conspiracy theory but the nerfs Bayonetta got is exactly what ZeRo was asking for in his video calling the character toxic.

 

This!!! So much this. You said everything as perfectly as possible.

Most people never played Bayonetta they just Bandwagon the hate and the mob mentality on social media.

Us dedicated Bayonetta players did nothing as well to explain to the public the weakness of the character like you stated but today in this miiverse thread I created about the 1.1.6 Patch it was en lighting when I was trying to explain SDI.

They literally told me:

https://miiverse.nintendo.net/replies/AYMHAAACAAADVHlNLX-aDA

So the mentality with some people is to ruin a game for the own pleasure.

If you want to have fun then play casual with items with your friend. If you can't enjoy competitive play which most of us do and we even enjoy when we lose because we get motivation to improve, then shut up about nerfs.

The game has more modes to play than for glory or with competitive rules.

Why the balance team listen to this stuff I cannot understand.

But call me crazy, this Bayonetta drama was well orchestrated by ZeRo and his bias opinion on the character because he couldn't deal with the match up.

Not Mew2King did not even most pro players that were used to turtle in strategies. First the support he shown to the Spanish fiasco about the ban, the Rusian joke post about a ban on Reddit which they admitted and I respect them for that.

All media caught fire with this controversy resulted with a angry mob that decided to pass judgement on a character based on hear say...

Plus the so called "injury" from ZeRo that kept him of the tournaments but when the nerf was hit Bayonetta hard he miraculously recovered and joined the tour "Get on my level" on the last minute.

http://shoryuken.com/2016/05/20/zer...te-spot-in-goml-thanks-to-zinotos-withdrawal/

Sorry if it looks like a huge conspiracy theory but the nerfs Bayonetta got is exactly what ZeRo was asking for in his video calling the character toxic.

Except, we already know that Sakurai looks to game metrics for balance changes, not the whining of the competitive elites.

Remember the talk during the very early balance patching? "Everyone heard that Little Mac was OP on Final Destination, so a lot of new players rushed to him and got crushed. This affected Little Mac's win percentage negatively, but wasn't actually a sign of the character being bad, so we had to account for that in our assessments".

Since the release of Bayonetta, we have heard nothing from the community except how broken she is. If she was not actually that broken, don't you think that the For Glory statistics would have shown a similar trend as they did for Little Mac?

If Sakurai nerfed Bayonetta because of the competitive community's complaining, you guys should be thrilled, because that would be LITERALLY the most attention Sakurai has EVER paid to your opinion.

Bayonetta has had a significant impact on casual play statistics among the millions of people who own the game and have never even seen this site. Her moves were ridiculously easy to pull off, and incredibly overpowered for the lower skill brackets.

The fact that she never won a national is irrelevant because Sakurai considers the top-tier competitive elites a negligible part of the community, and is (and has always been) more concerned with how a character plays among family and friends than how they perform in tourneys.

 

Except, we already know that Sakurai looks to game metrics for balance changes, not the whining of the competitive elites.

Remember the talk during the very early balance patching? "Everyone heard that Little Mac was OP on Final Destination, so a lot of new players rushed to him and got crushed. This affected Little Mac's win percentage negatively, but wasn't actually a sign of the character being bad, so we had to account for that in our assessments".

Since the release of Bayonetta, we have heard nothing from the community except how broken she is. If she was not actually that broken, don't you think that the For Glory statistics would have shown a similar trend as they did for Little Mac?

If Sakurai nerfed Bayonetta because of the competitive community's complaining, you guys should be thrilled, because that would be LITERALLY the most attention Sakurai has EVER paid to your opinion.

Bayonetta has had a significant impact on casual play statistics among the millions of people who own the game and have never even seen this site. Her moves were ridiculously easy to pull off, and incredibly overpowered for the lower skill brackets.

The fact that she never won a national is irrelevant because Sakurai considers the top-tier competitive elites a negligible part of the community, and is (and has always been), more concerned with how a character plays among family and friends than how they perform in tourneys.

I agree with you on the above post. But How accurate are this statistics and of course the SD percentage and disconnects plus the win ratio in for glory is not a good measure either.

But Sakurai himself said that he doesn't look the balance of the game but there is a specific team for balance that look this kind of stuff and the competitive scene.

He was present on an invitational that he presented Bayonetta and Corrin and he was impressed by the players that took place.

So that leaves the question. Whom the balance team listen or gather the information about the patches?

And if statistics from the game dictate what players gets the nerf hammer why Bayonetta was the only one that got nerfed hard in 1.1.6?

 

See the thing is, all the other top tiers while being exceptionally better than the rest of the cast, have their own, pretty well defined weaknesses that make them bearable to fight against most of the cast. If you were good enough, you could beat Shiek, Sonic, or ZSS with Zelda, and thats how it still is. All the top tiers have their fair share of good and bad matchups. Bayonnetta on the other hand effectively broke the flow of the game AND the smash community competitive or casual by her ridiculous combo mechanics and mu spread. She literally had 0 bad matchups, it didnt require much effort or skill to start killing off the top like a mad man, witch time (nuff said), and the matchup spread in general.

90% she dominated. Thats why she had a patch dedicated just for her.

 

See the thing is, all the other top tiers while being exceptionally better than the rest of the cast, have their own, pretty well defined weaknesses that make them bearable to fight against most of the cast. If you were good enough, you could beat Shiek, Sonic, or ZSS with Zelda, and thats how it still is. All the top tiers have their fair share of good and bad matchups. Bayonnetta on the other hand effectively broke the flow of the game AND the smash community competitive or casual by her ridiculous combo mechanics and mu spread. She literally had 0 bad matchups, it didnt require much effort or skill to start killing off the top like a mad man, witch time (nuff said), and the matchup spread in general.

90% she dominated. Thats why she had a patch dedicated just for her.

Not true and pure fiction. Witch Time was never op to begin with. high level players baited very easily and has several weaknesses like disjoint attacks penetrate witch time effect like Greninjas Smashes, didn't work with projectiles and many if you were willing to discover them.

Bayonetta has the worst rolls and spot dogde in the game, her landing lag is unique to her as more air specials she was using because of her combos, telegraph moves one miss and she could be punished hard. Also she is very light character she could be killed easily at 89% precent most of the time with good placed smash attacks or event specific gimmicks other characters have like little mac smashes which have super armor or his K.O punch which is instant stock loss for Bayonetta.

Bad match ups were floaty characters that were hard to combo like Ness and Lucas, Jigglypuff (now they are impossible) and heavy characters with rage depended moves and grabs. Bowser could killed her easy with 3 sideb grabs very easy to do to a Bayonetta with her bad neutral game...

If the community was willing to up the level of high play they could start helping others that had this problem with guides and infos like that.

What they chose to do??? Follow false prophets sperading FUD about an amazing character because they afraid the potential she had if they faced her in the hands of a talanted player. She was a wild card to players like ZeRo who for the life of him sucks in normal fighting games, look his Pokken videos, and afraid to lose his status because if he liked the character he would instantly stop protesting and choose her. But command inputs are difficult for his play style so he target her like Grekwart the Spanish player who lost like total amateur against avery good Bayonetta player in Spain's National and cried like a salty loser he is about the character being broken creating more havoc for a ban online with his followers.

So what do we want as a community? Create a bigger and safe environment for all the players to learn their character and develop the meta game more? Or to call us the worst community of whinners asking for nerfs because as of today the other players of the FGC think us like spoiled children that cannot adapt and with the first difficulty we ask for nerfs.

Competitive play is to differentiate the casuals for the try hards and the second groub should be rewarded for the time they spent with the game, not gimp them so the rest can follow.

You do not ask an athlete to cut his leg so a normal runner can catch up with him in a race.

Bayonetta requires skill to play her more that Sheik or Sonic or Zero Suit. The character has command input, buffers, slow moves and combo starters that need precision input and timing especially the 2 witch twist combos. A combo with Bayonetta requires more inputs than a grab followed by an up air to win, as Diddy was doing with ho hah.

So please play the character before parroting ZeRo's bias opinions. If he has anything to say about Bayonetta let us see him play her and prove to us that she is broken and toxic now after the patch.

 

Bayonetta has the worst rolls and spot dogde in the game

Samus. So easily you forgot of Samus.

 

Bad match ups were floaty characters that were hard to combo like Ness and Lucas, Jigglypuff (now they are impossible) and heavy characters with rage depended moves and grabs. Bowser could killed her easy with 3 sideb grabs very easy to do to a Bayonetta with her bad neutral game...

I can't comment on the other match-ups you listed, but as a Jigglypuff main, I've always been really curious as to why many Bayonetta mains think we're good against them since I feel that even with the nerfs Jigglypuff doesn't solidly beat Bayonetta. Yes, we could (and obviously still can) easily escape your combos, and yes, all our aerials negate your smashes, but I believe we still don't beat you guys really solidly overall. It's virtually impossible for us to gimp you during Witch Twist and Afterburner Kick, she can edgeguard against us fairly decently,and although we can definitely outmaneuver Bayonetta in the air, she in turn can outspace us there, Bayonetta's definitely got quite a few things that stop us from dominating this. I feel like the match-up's not that bad for either of them, I personally think slightly in Bayonetta's favor, but feel free to disagree. If Jigglypuff has anything else that gives Bayonetta's kit a hard time other than being floaty and interrupting combos I'd be pleasantly surprised and would honestly love to hear about it.

 

Samus. So easily you forgot of Samus.

Not really. Samus rolls aren't as bad as people make it to be.

 

I can't comment on the other match-ups you listed, but as a Jigglypuff main, I've always been really curious as to why many Bayonetta mains think we're good against them since I feel that even with the nerfs Jigglypuff doesn't solidly beat Bayonetta. Yes, we could (and obviously still can) easily escape your combos, and yes, all our aerials negate your smashes, but I believe we still don't beat you guys really solidly overall. It's virtually impossible for us to gimp you during Witch Twist and Afterburner Kick, she can edgeguard against us fairly decently,and although we can definitely outmaneuver Bayonetta in the air, she in turn can outspace us there, Bayonetta's definitely got quite a few things that stop us from dominating this. I feel like the match-up's not that bad for either of them, I personally think slightly in Bayonetta's favor, but feel free to disagree. If Jigglypuff has anything else that gives Bayonetta's kit a hard time other than being floaty and interrupting combos I'd be pleasantly surprised and would honestly love to hear about it.

Jiggles have enough time to lay us to rest pretty easy on out landing lag when you DI our combo. Bayonetta for you is easy 2 rest if you play your card and read correct.

After the nerfs now you can use all your aerials to punish us mid air after you avoid telegraph moves like after burner or witch twist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fnTy1iBz5o

Not a good video but you get the idea.

a better video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NTjdYe9gps

 

Not really. Samus rolls aren't as bad as people make it to be.

And Bayo's roll is as bad as he makes it to be?

 

Jiggles have enough time to lay us to rest pretty easy on out landing lag when you DI our combo. Bayonetta for you is easy 2 rest if you play your card and read correct.

Yeah, that's a good point. Although, I did mention it, it's what I mean't to say when I said she's good at "Interrupting combos", I probably should have worded that better lol, my bad. Anyway though, I think Bayonetta shouldn't be using most of her combos against Jiggly in the first place, but since I worded that so poorly, I'll give you a point on that since you are completely right on the point, attempting combos as Bayonetta against Jigglypuff is not the best of ideas.

After the nerfs now you can use all your aerials to punish us mid air after you avoid telegraph moves like after burner or witch twist.

Definitely, if ABK, Witch Twist or Witch Time is used carelessly then more likely than not Puff's going to punish hard for it. Not sure why Bayonetta would just toss these out versus Puff, but if Bayonetta does that often then I can definitely see what your talking about.

I still don't think Bayonetta loses to Jigglypuff, since from my experience fiddling with Bayonetta's moveset, walling Puff out with Bayonetta's Bair is very efficient, and that she just needs to approach the match-up differently than most others. Though, I think I'm starting to see why the match-up gives you guys such a hard time, if it's in your favor it sounds like you'd have to play against her different than your used to doing against the rest of the cast, which can be a major pain. So yeah, I think I can see why people would struggle vs Jigglypuff now.

 

And Bayo's roll is as bad as he makes it to be?

Check the frame data here.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Rolls

Second worst after Samus

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Spotdodge

Worst spotdogde in the game

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Airdodge

Worst airdodge in the game.

But I though it was common knowledge. So from the looks of it the bias is based on uninformed opinion... Better Bayonetta mains start a campaign about this stuff and help restore Bayonetta before patch and people focus to learn her weakness and match up so we could have the amazing combo game Bayonetta provided with people now know how to tackle the Umbran Witch. Because now Bayonetta is really a very bad Hit and Run character.

 

Over-nerfed or not, this needed to stop.

Pink Fresh is an amazing player, but this is would only hurt the game over time.

 

Over-nerfed or not, this needed to stop.
Pink Fresh is an amazing player, but this is would only hurt the game over time.

What needed to stop? That this pacman could not tackle Bayonetta basic combos with proper DI? Do you know how difficult this combos are to land with people that know how to play with SDI and DI?

If you are carried out of the blast zone with this combos you deserve to lose. The are very easy to avoid, but no one tried to learn how.

I read your messages here and you are pretty biased against the character and you present her in a very one sided way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gupf_cYF6JE

So many internet guides and YouTube to gather information and people prefer to whine rather to get better. You mentality and the rest of the people that think like you need to be cast aside by the competitive community.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNO5FudmyAc

Please, please stop with this mentality.

 

Check the frame data here.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Rolls

Second worst after Samus

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Spotdodge

Worst spotdogde in the game

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Airdodge

Worst airdodge in the game.

But I though it was common knowledge. So from the looks of it the bias is based on uninformed opinion... Better Bayonetta mains start a campaign about this stuff and help restore Bayonetta before patch and people focus to learn her weakness and match up so we could have the amazing combo game Bayonetta provided with people now know how to tackle the Umbran Witch. Because now Bayonetta is really a very bad Hit and Run character.

So I was right about Samus' roll being obviously worse, which is common knowledge for sure....
About restoring stuff, I agree, let's restore 1.1.4, so Bayonetta will not dominate every tournament alone.
Everything was just fine before 1.1.5.

 

So you buy characters depending of their tier placement?

To be fair, I'm sure plenty of people wouldn't mind a refund on Roy.

 

You mentality and the rest of the people that think like you need to be cast aside by the competitive community.

For every one person saying Bayonetta was fine and people just needed to "get better," there were ten people crying out for the injustice to stop. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, you seem unable to take you own advice and adapt.
I never said she was unbeatable, but it's ridiculous to even suggest that a character being able to punish a whiffed jab with a 0-death was anything but broken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zLpshzrZWA
https://youtu.be/lX8d9Ii45nM?t=1m55s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSM7y9gGc4k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mw_VY7O0JQ

Admit it; your pay-to-win character finally got the nerfs she deserved, and now the community is saying the same things you said when Shiek, Greninja, and all the others got nerfed:

"Just adapt and get better."

 

 

For every one person saying Bayonetta was fine and people just needed to "get better," there were ten people crying out for the injustice to stop. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, you seem unable to take you own advice and adapt.
I never said she was unbeatable, but it's ridiculous to even suggest that a character being able to punish a whiffed jab with a 0-death was anything but broken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zLpshzrZWA
https://youtu.be/lX8d9Ii45nM?t=1m55s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSM7y9gGc4k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mw_VY7O0JQ

Admit it; your pay-to-win finally got the nerfs she deserved, and now the community is saying the same things you said when Shiek, Greninja, and all the others got nerfed:

"Just adapt and get better."

Never said anything about nerfs or other stuff you are putting on my mouth. The people who cried for injustice and asked for nerfs deserved not to be a part of a competitive community in the first place.

When you are competing in sports you do not go to the best athletes and amputate their legs or arms because the crowd think they are too talented or good because of other athletes are not as good.

Remember each character is represented by the player that control him not the other way around. Pink Fresh won because he mastered Bayonetta and kick his opponent ass because he played better or the other player couldn't adapt in the match up fast enough or he didn't know the match up.

The videos you are posting are great show that presents great skill from players that play the character very well.

Do not present the patch as a "revenge" Bayonetta players deserved because they played good.

This shows how entitled and bias you are. We are adapting but we think and we present out inform opinion about a patch that broke a character in faor of people like yourself.

Biased and lazy people shouldn't be rewarded having easier time in a competitive level to give you a boost to reach very good player that are practicing hours upon hours to fight the way they do.

So stop with this nonsense and get better. Do not ask for nerfs ask for buffs if you like on specific characters so we can discuss it normally.

The nerf mentality is too toxic mentality and creates bad players and bad mindset of how you tackle the gameplay of a competitive game.

You entitlement truly infuriates me.

EDIT:
Oh my God now I saw the videos that you posted... Really... Troll videos that was made for fun is your serious answer for Bayonetta. Nothing more to say to you, you are a bias entitled spoiled child. Go throw a tantrum elsewhere.

 

Smash4 is such .....

 

Nothing more to say to you, you are a bias entitled spoiled child. Go throw a tantrum elsewhere.

The only one throwing a tantrum here is you, bud.
But for the sake of keeping what little peace remains here, I'll stick to my word and let my last post be my stance on the matter. That, and permanently ignore any of your insulting, ad hominem posts moving forward.

Peace, fellow smasher.

 

Except, we already know that Sakurai looks to game metrics for balance changes, not the whining of the competitive elites.

Remember the talk during the very early balance patching? "Everyone heard that Little Mac was OP on Final Destination, so a lot of new players rushed to him and got crushed. This affected Little Mac's win percentage negatively, but wasn't actually a sign of the character being bad, so we had to account for that in our assessments".

Since the release of Bayonetta, we have heard nothing from the community except how broken she is. If she was not actually that broken, don't you think that the For Glory statistics would have shown a similar trend as they did for Little Mac?

If Sakurai nerfed Bayonetta because of the competitive community's complaining, you guys should be thrilled, because that would be LITERALLY the most attention Sakurai has EVER paid to your opinion.

Bayonetta has had a significant impact on casual play statistics among the millions of people who own the game and have never even seen this site. Her moves were ridiculously easy to pull off, and incredibly overpowered for the lower skill brackets.

The fact that she never won a national is irrelevant because Sakurai considers the top-tier competitive elites a negligible part of the community, and is (and has always been) more concerned with how a character plays among family and friends than how they perform in tourneys.

but then he would be contradicting himself

he specifically made for glory to simulate the setting of a 1 on 1 encounter because of this fact then you would have to have some hand in the mechanics of how a character works
though it was said earlier that there is a development team that is dedicated to this sort of thing, Instead of him


This is also wrong because what about the people that dont play for glory and instead to free for all where there are items involved.

It also assumes that the lower level players that complain are also the highest common denominator.
he doesnt have a hand in the process enough to make sound decisions on the matter.
If you make a mode that is for a competitive setting then you would want to make sure that you have the gist of what competition entails.
he seemingly after melee tried to denounce this.

this also doesn't take into account for player development which other then the victory is the only thing that is really achievable in a 1 on 1 setting. you also assume that the people that play this mode wouldn't inevitably try to get better by looking up information on the character
which can easily be done through lurking on this forum
something that i have been doing for years ( i just remembered my password lol)

if you cant properly assess, and have the proper intuition to tabulate these results...
then why even have the mode in the first place


Development and winning are all that you have when you play a 1 on 1 in a fighting game. how can i know that better than sakurai.

It would seem that he made this mode and then tried to push it off to the side.

also this post would assume that the people that play this mode have a larger hand in the process of complaining then the actual community

notwithstanding you have no definitive proof of that. does he site letters from random people in for glory, does he have actual complaints?

i question all of this because if your post was actually 100% fact then not even sakurai understands what he actually wants.

and if he cant understand himself this late into the games development
after he literally said that there is nothing extra than he is putting into the game then why would you have a patch to change a character,
for a mode that you dont really care for?

 

but then he would be contradicting himself

he specifically made for glory to simulate the setting of a 1 on 1 encounter because of this fact then you would have to have some hand in the mechanics of how a character works
though it was said earlier that there is a development team that is dedicated to this sort of thing, Instead of him


This is also wrong because what about the people that dont play for glory and instead to free for all where there are items involved.

It also assumes that the lower level players that complain are also the highest common denominator.
he doesnt have a hand in the process enough to make sound decisions on the matter.
If you make a mode that is for a competitive setting then you would want to make sure that you have the gist of what competition entails.
he seemingly after melee tried to denounce this.

this also doesn't take into account for player development which other then the victory is the only thing that is really achievable in a 1 on 1 setting. you also assume that the people that play this mode wouldn't inevitably try to get better by looking up information on the character
which can easily be done through lurking on this forum
something that i have been doing for years ( i just remembered my password lol)

if you cant properly assess, and have the proper intuition to tabulate these results...
then why even have the mode in the first place


Development and winning are all that you have when you play a 1 on 1 in a fighting game. how can i know that better than sakurai.

It would seem that he made this mode and then tried to push it off to the side.

also this post would assume that the people that play this mode have a larger hand in the process of complaining then the actual community

notwithstanding you have no definitive proof of that. does he site letters from random people in for glory, does he have actual complaints?

i question all of this because if your post was actually 100% fact then not even sakurai understands what he actually wants.

and if he cant understand himself this late into the games development
after he literally said that there is nothing extra than he is putting into the game then why would you have a patch to change a character,
for a mode that you dont really care for?

Pardon me for this, but:

What the HELL are you saying? I seriously cannot understand your argument.

To re-iterate my point:

It appears that the biggest reason for his low win ratio is because people fall under the assumption that ‘Little Mac is strong!’ and all rush to use him only to get pummeled in return.

He gives the impression of being able to win easier than other fighters which leads to more people using him, but in reality, he’s a difficult character to actually continuously win with.

Source

Again, this indicates that the team has access to direct game metrics, and is using them to judge relative character strength, and, likely, game balance. The focus on For Glory or other modes is largely irrelevant. The point is, the balance team can look at statistics for the entire online player base.

Little Mac had a perception of being a powerful, easy to use character, and that perception was false, and that was noted directly by Sakurai (and, as such, the balance team).

Bayonetta had a perception of being a powerful, easy to use character, and the numbers supported that perception.

The top-end play is top-end because the vast majority of play is on an inferior level. That's what makes the tournament scene special. Among the tournament players, skills like DI are incredibly common, and there's a reason why she didn't perform any better at high-level tournament play than any other top-tier character, as has been noted.

But among lesser skilled players, the scene is very different. Most basic players barely even know what DI is, let alone are familiar enough with it to work it in to their play style constantly.

Why do you think there are so many places to DI out of her combos now? Because most casual players will barely even know how to DI out of them, let alone remember to do so.

The competitive elites are, once again, viewing only the microscopic portion of the game that takes place at the top-end tournament level. And the majority of the player base does NOT play at that level. Bayonetta could, quite easily, dominate play at lower levels, and I suspect that she DID wind up dominating play at the medium and low levels. There are far more players at those skill levels than there are those who play at a tournament level.

The whining likely didn't matter at all. The metrics did. I suspect she was objectively observed to be winning far more matches overall than any other character.

 

Pardon me for this, but:

What the HELL are you saying? I seriously cannot understand your argument.

To re-iterate my point:


Source

Again, this indicates that the team has access to direct game metrics, and is using them to judge relative character strength, and, likely, game balance. The focus on For Glory or other modes is largely irrelevant. The point is, the balance team can look at statistics for the entire online player base.

Little Mac had a perception of being a powerful, easy to use character, and that perception was false, and that was noted directly by Sakurai (and, as such, the balance team).

Bayonetta had a perception of being a powerful, easy to use character, and the numbers supported that perception.

The top-end play is top-end because the vast majority of play is on an inferior level. That's what makes the tournament scene special. Among the tournament players, skills like DI are incredibly common, and there's a reason why she didn't perform any better at high-level tournament play than any other top-tier character, as has been noted.

But among lesser skilled players, the scene is very different. Most basic players barely even know what DI is, let alone are familiar enough with it to work it in to their play style constantly.

Why do you think there are so many places to DI out of her combos now? Because most casual players will barely even know how to DI out of them, let alone remember to do so.

The competitive elites are, once again, viewing only the microscopic portion of the game that takes place at the top-end tournament level. And the majority of the player base does NOT play at that level. Bayonetta could, quite easily, dominate play at lower levels, and I suspect that she DID wind up dominating play at the medium and low levels. There are far more players at those skill levels than there are those who play at a tournament level.

The whining likely didn't matter at all. The metrics did. I suspect she was objectively observed to be winning far more matches overall than any other character.

Sorry but what is that argument saying?
it said that little mac has a low win percentage but people run over to get pummeled by him

if he had a low win percentage then whats the problem

IM saying that sakurai doesnt know what he wants to do with the mode, he doesnt have a hand in the process
if so then why are you touching the character.

Also if you are going by straight metrics then why would he change anything?
its assumed that some characters are going to be winning more than others. if they dont listen to anybody then why would they have to change any thing?
you cant balance the game perfectly enough where one character isnt going to be winning more than the others.


Also you used the word "perception"
what does that even mean. you couldn't have perception without verbatim, testimony that supports your claim


You need to make up you mind
you say that whining didnt play a part in her nerf yet you said above that the perception that she was easy to use.

Numbers are objective and factual. but they are incomplete.

I wouldnt call it dominating so much as that she was winning at a higher rate.
even then... do you have source material that shows that she was

"dominating"

thats a strong word to say.


Also your the one that brought up using for glory as a way to support your
argument

now you say that its irrelevant ...
make up your mind



Im questioning what is sakurai listening to?
if its raw numerical data for a online community then how do you correlate that to the very specific nerfs she got
and NO BUFFS?!!



you need to look at more than just numbers to make those changes

 

I'm really glad they nerfed Bayonetta, I haven't like her since I found out she was going to be in smash. I still bought her because I wanted to try her but I really think she could have been better. Not saying she wasn't good at first but this nerf just killed her, I think she will still be played and get good results in tournaments or even casual play.
: If you need to learn how to talk to a lady, ask your mum.

 

Sorry but what is that argument saying?
it said that little mac has a low win percentage but people run over to get pummeled by him

if he had a low win percentage then whats the problem

There isn't one. That's kinda his whole point.

IM saying that sakurai doesnt know what he wants to do with the mode, he doesnt have a hand in the process
if so then why are you touching the character.

Is there a source for this claim (that Sakurai does not have a hand in balancing)?

Even if Sakurai is not involved in the balancing process, the same arguments apply to the balancing team.

Also if you are going by straight metrics then why would he change anything?

...Because of the metrics (and how they show that character X has a significant lead over the rest in terms of win / loss ratio).

its assumed that some characters are going to be winning more than others. if they dont listen to anybody then why would they have to change any thing?

A) Skyblade never said that Sakurai and / or the balancing team do not listen to players' opinions online when balancing characters, and I don't think that the balancing team have said so either.

B) Because one character dominates over the others.

you cant balance the game perfectly enough where one character isnt going to be winning more than the others.

Point?

Also you used the word "perception"
what does that even mean. you couldn't have perception without verbatim, testimony that supports your claim

"Perception" is a way of seeing or understanding something (e.g. seeing Little Mac as overpowered).

As an aside, I am now thoroughly convinced that you have no idea what you are talking about.

You need to make up you mind
you say that whining didnt play a part in her nerf yet you said above that the perception that she was easy to use.

These are not contradictory statements. The metrics, according to Skyblade, were likely the primary reason for the nerf. The competitive community's perception of Bayonetta may have aligned with this, yes, but this does not mean that they played any role in the change. Correlation =/= causation.

Numbers are objective and factual. but they are incomplete.

Incomplete how?

I wouldnt call it dominating so much as that she was winning at a higher rate.

...Which the word "dominate" is meant to describe.

even then... do you have source material that shows that she was

"dominating"

thats a strong word to say.

This is mostly speculation, since we do not have the metrics publicly available – however, based on how SDI is not commonly known at lower levels of play, and how SDI is the only way to escape Bayonetta's combos, it can be reasoned (and in fact, was reasoned by Skyblade) based on these factors that the metrics showed Bayonetta's dominance.

Also your the one that brought up using for glory as a way to support your
argument

now you say that its irrelevant ...
make up your mind

Skyblade brought up For Glory, if I'm mistaken, to illustrate his point regarding Little Mac, not his point regarding Bayonetta. Also, he never even said that For Glory was irrelevant.

Im questioning what is sakurai listening to?
if its raw numerical data for a online community then how do you correlate that to the very specific nerfs she got
and NO BUFFS?!!

If a character is too powerful, you nerf them. Bayonetta was shown to be too powerful (at lower levels of play), so they nerfed her.

you need to look at more than just numbers to make those changes

Right, which is why the balancing team also looked at Bayonetta's moveset, her combos, etc etc.

 

I'm just going to assume that there will be atleast one more balance patch that buffs the large handful of fighters that really need and deserve it. Please make it happen Mossy Hero Soccer Guy!

 

Why the balance team listen to this stuff I cannot understand.

I would imagine, being a balance team, they do it to balance the game.

 

There isn't one. That's kinda his whole point.

Is there a source for this claim (that Sakurai does not have a hand in balancing)?

Even if Sakurai is not involved in the balancing process, the same arguments apply to the balancing team.

...Because of the metrics (and how they show that character X has a significant lead over the rest in terms of win / loss ratio).

A) Skyblade never said that Sakurai and / or the balancing team do not listen to players' opinions online when balancing characters, and I don't think that the balancing team have said so either.





These are not contradictory statements. The metrics, according to Skyblade, were likely the primary reason for the nerf. The competitive community's perception of Bayonetta may have aligned with this, yes, but this does not mean that they played any role in the change. Correlation =/= causation.






.

i haven't brought up the competitive community in my posts at all

if your going to respond why would you bring it up when nether of us has done so.


also sky blade said this regarding her

The whining likely didn't matter at all. The metrics did. I suspect she was objectively observed to be winning far more matches overall than any other character.

so they just look at raw numerical data

i asked him do you have proof of this occurring at the lower level of play


he also said

"Bayonetta had a perception of being a powerful, easy to use character"

Im again asking wheres the source material for this claim at the lower level of play you guys speak of

also people have to remember that bayonetta just came out
i dont even think this is enough of a sample size to dictate how things should be changed. Hell you dont even know if people are using her just because shes one of the new characters.

so you dont have definitive numbers showing her rate of winning amoung the online community

and even if you did you wouldn't know how to interpret those numbers.

yet a patch came out exclusively for her
beyond all that i stated, making kneejerk patches to numerical data is about as silly as you can be.

its next door to stupid

 

I'm just going to assume that there will be atleast one more balance patch that buffs the large handful of fighters that really need and deserve it. Please make it happen Mossy Hero Soccer Guy!

Mossy Hero Soccer Sakurai oh that won't get annoying. And in all seriousness it would be a freakin miracle if they were to go through with a buff only patch. Who do you want buffed, triple D???

 

i haven't brought up the competitive community in my posts at all

if your going to respond why would you bring it up when nether of us has done so.

A) I did not bring up the competitive community.

B) Bringing up a new topic in a discussion is far from a bad thing to do; it often brings new points of view, evidence, etc etc.

C) Skyblade did indeed bring up the competitive community (see message #151).

also sky blade said this regarding her

so they just look at raw numerical data

i asked him do you have proof of this occurring at the lower level of play

This is speculation.

Skyblade is saying that, based on the points he brought up, there probably was data which led to Bayonetta's nerf. There is no actual data available to the public; Skyblade is using reasoning to prove his point.

he also said

"Bayonetta had a perception of being a powerful, easy to use character"

Im again asking wheres the source material for this claim at the lower level of play you guys speak of

Here's a good place to look.

also people have to remember that bayonetta just came out
i dont even think this is enough of a sample size to dictate how things should be changed.

I do not see how giving it more time, in this instance, will change anything. Bayonetta has been out for several months now, and if the data showed that she was still dominating at lower levels of play (where counterplay is less likely to be developed due to a lower skill level), a nerf was in order.

I will stop here, to avoid redundancy.

 

You mean to tell me there is literally a million excuses as to why Bayonetta was nerfed?! For crying out loud when will this nightmare end, I feel like everyone is being redundant about this entire ordeal that she has went through with the LARGEST AMOUNT OF NERFS KNOWN TO MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!( I finally looked at the coding, and I think even though I hate her in every degree, especially for taking Wolf's spot, they did way to much to her) So in conclusion, I think everyone should end this charade before the redundancy gets far out of hand!