Patch 1.1.6 Released: Bayonetta Hit With Nerf Hammer

Late Thursday evening, Nintendo released what could possibly be the final patch for Smash 4. The patch notes had been leaked ahead of time by Twitter user @RandomTBush, revealing that only one major change had occurred within the game: Bayonetta had been nerfed as hard as any other character in the history of Smash 4.

PG | ESAM takes a look at Bayonetta's re-worked specials
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Apparently Nintendo had heard the very vocal voices in the community calling for Bayonetta nerfs and decided to rework the character in a major way. The changes seem to be specifically designed to prevent her from setting up and pulling off her ladder combos, which could be devastating for the character. Her D-tilt has had its hitbox significantly reduced. Both Witch-Twist as well as After-Burner Kick have had their SDI multipliers doubled, which should make it significantly easier for opponents to escape. Also worth noting, is that her hitboxes for several iterations of these moves have been shrunk. Her D-air has also received a nerf in the form of a reduction in knockback growth. You can find the full patch notes here.

Top Smashers seem to be going in both directions on whether or not Bayonetta will remain a top-character:

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What do you think of the impending Bayonetta nerfs? Will she still be viable? Are you disappointed that no other characters were changed? Is this the final Smash 4 patch? Let us know in the comments below.

 

i haven't brought up the competitive community in my posts at all

if your going to respond why would you bring it up when nether of us has done so.


also sky blade said this regarding her




so they just look at raw numerical data

i asked him do you have proof of this occurring at the lower level of play


he also said

"Bayonetta had a perception of being a powerful, easy to use character"

Im again asking wheres the source material for this claim at the lower level of play you guys speak of

also people have to remember that bayonetta just came out
i dont even think this is enough of a sample size to dictate how things should be changed. Hell you dont even know if people are using her just because shes one of the new characters.

so you dont have definitive numbers showing her rate of winning amoung the online community

and even if you did you wouldn't know how to interpret those numbers.

yet a patch came out exclusively for her
beyond all that i stated, making kneejerk patches to numerical data is about as silly as you can be.

its next door to stupid

Alright, if you want to be a pedantic hypocrite about it:

Fact: Sakurai has said (multiple times) that catering solely to the competitive community would be detrimental to Smash, and is something he would never do.

Fact: The development team has access to metrics and statistics taken from the game that give real world data.

Fact: Sakurai indicated an understanding of the difference between perception of a character, and how a character actually performs.

Fact: Bayonetta is harder to deal with at low levels of play than at high levels of play. Because her combos are basic techniques, while escaping them requires SDI, which is an advanced technique.


In light of these facts:


Reasonable conclusion: Bayonetta's nerf came from observation of performance in real-world metrics and data collected by the balance team in the months since her release.

Unreasonable conclusion: Bayonetta's nerf was the result of a bandwagon hate campaign orchestrated by ZeRo and maliciously spread throughout the community.


My post was a direct response to a self-admitted "conspiracy theory" by @AkiraGr. Did you ask for any proof from Akira? In spite of the fact that his conclusion requires: Ignoring Sakurai's previous stance on game design and balance, and ignoring the real world performance in favor of perception.

My conclusion is just that. It is a conclusion pulled from the evidence at hand. It is a theory, based on observable phenomena and past trends. Akira's is a tin-foil hat conspiracy that somehow grants a single competitive player sway over the entire game, and acts contrary to direct evidence and trends we have seen in the way things have been handled before.

I have no proof. What I have is logic and consistency. If you're going to ask for proof, why not request it of the person arguing without logic or consistent patterns?

 

great news, time to rip the witch apart!!!

 

FOR ONCE
I CAN ACTUALLY PLAY BAYO WITHOUT FEELING LIKE A COMPLETE PRICK
THANK YOU SAKURAI FOR UNBREAKING HER

 

I'm confused as to how anyone's saying Bayonetta's "unplayable" now, have you fellows ever played a Bottom Tier character before? They are clouted with weaknesses and their strengths are outshone, and I personally don't think you can say the same thing about Bayonetta. She racks up damage very well, edgeguards wonderfully, has a insane recovery, and really only suffers from her weight and a perceived lack of ability to kill. Which even then there's still her B-air and edgeguarding, I feel like she's fine. These nerfs were justified, and they didn't destroy the character imo.

Preach it, brother.

 

Now the competitive scene can actually develop in local sites. Good stuff!

 

The crys of bayo fans are all over the place and I'm just here like...

"git gud"

You mean what people crying about her shoulda done? I'll be honest, I dont buy DLC, and I haven't bought any sm4sh dlc as I think the concept is cancer pure and simple. I havent used bayo myself but I've fought against it plenty enough to know the character coulda been figured out and beaten. The character was relatively great, and had some wonderful options that mighta needed a nerf yes, but not enough to do what they did to her. This wasn't a nerf, but a castration to quell the tears of salty crybabies that don't like being combo'd.

I say this as a (mostly) kirby main. instead of crying and whining and being the equivalent of a tumblr feminist everytime something doesnt go your way, the Smash 4 community should build their meta around getting better instead of crying nerf everytime something is hard.

Smashboards thought police incoming because I wasnt nice, I'll go back to not posting here for another 2-3 years.

 

"git gud"

You mean what people crying about her shoulda done? I'll be honest, I dont buy DLC, and I haven't bought any sm4sh dlc as I think the concept is cancer pure and simple. I havent used bayo myself but I've fought against it plenty enough to know the character coulda been figured out and beaten. The character was relatively great, and had some wonderful options that mighta needed a nerf yes, but not enough to do what they did to her. This wasn't a nerf, but a castration to quell the tears of salty crybabies that don't like being combo'd.

I say this as a (mostly) kirby main. instead of crying and whining and being the equivalent of a tumblr feminist everytime something doesnt go your way, the Smash 4 community should build their meta around getting better instead of crying nerf everytime something is hard.

Smashboards thought police incoming because I wasnt nice, I'll go back to not posting here for another 2-3 years.

Right, because we all know just how famous the Smash development team is for listening to whiners on Smashboards. That's why we got playable Ridley and Wolf, that's why Smash 4 is Melee 2.0, and that's why Smash Tour was removed in favor of a new Adventure Mode.

Your ignorant and blatantly biased opinion that the Bayonetta nerf was caused by "crying and whining" lacks any evidence, and goes directly against the stated design goals of the series, and trends we have noticed with past balance changes. Can you cite ANY evidence that "git gud" whining has affected any part of game balance, ever?

And, yes, Bayonetta can be played around. That doesn't mean that anyone could play around her. Smash is a game for everyone, not just for the competitive players, and you really need to drop the arrogant assumption that the entire community revolves around you and your precious opinion.

There's a reason why most of the biggest nerfs have been to obvious and easy to use mechanics, with things like the Hoo-Ha, suicide throws, and now Bayonetta's combos being removed. It's because they're easy enough to perform that they directly effect play at all skill levels, not just the highest ones.

Bayonetta is still a decent character, and she's still actually one of the tops at lower level play, where players aren't aware of how to escape her combos. As you would know if you actually PLAYED her, instead of coming in to shove your own admittedly uninformed opinion on everyone else with blatant assumptions and ad hominem.

 

Good to know someone is taking the "Whinning and the Crying" as bad as I am. If only the "Smash is for Everyone" thing is so true, but alas, they cry about not being good at the game in it's entirety. I'm also not that convinced that Bayo is still decent, definitely worse now, but I still don't trust her. Before I get ranted about being so arrogantly opinionated, what the Hell is an ad hominem??!!

 

Good to know someone is taking the "Whinning and the Crying" as bad as I am. If only the "Smash is for Everyone" thing is so true, but alas, they cry about not being good at the game in it's entirety. I'm also not that convinced that Bayo is still decent, definitely worse now, but I still don't trust her. Before I get ranted about being so arrogantly opinionated, what the Hell is an ad hominem??!!

Ad hominem - Latin for "to the man". It refers to discussing your opponent in an argument, instead of discussing their claims. For example, by calling them "salty crybabies" or "tumblr feminists", instead of actually having a reasoned and logical discussion.

If you cannot defend your points with a reasoned argument, do not attack those who disagree with you.

 

Pretty much that's the whole reason that Bayonetta was nerfed, everyone is arguing that she is too good and cheap without even proving why? And they, therefore, took their tears and rants to the person that has agreed to let this character in the roster. It's their own fault they wanted this and now they got it in the worst possible way!

 

Pretty much that's the whole reason that Bayonetta was nerfed, everyone is arguing that she is too good and cheap without even proving why? And they, therefore, took their tears and rants to the person that has agreed to let this character in the roster. It's their own fault they wanted this and now they got it in the worst possible way!

You complain that we don't "prove why" Bayonetta was too good. Yet you make a claim that it was our "tears and rants" that caused her to be nerfed.

Where is YOUR "proof" of this? Hypocrite.

You're making an unfounded assumption that Bayonetta was NOT too good. You are offering nothing to substantiate your claim, except a personal "feeling".

As long as someone has to "prove" why she was nerfed, why don't YOU prove that it was because of complaints, and not because of objective, empirical data?

Again:

We know that they collect metric data from the entire player base.

We know that the concerns of the competitive community do NOT dictate the design decisions of the game.

We know that Bayonetta was a dominant force at the majority of the levels of play.

We know that Sakurai has specifically mentioned distinctions between how people perceive a character, and how that character performs, and that those decisions do factor into his thoughts on game design and balance.


In light of these facts, what evidence do you have to show that Bayonetta was nerfed because of complaints, and not because she was having an unhealthy effect from the metagame, in a way that was observable to the developers?

 

Dude, have you seen how the entire community is reacting to the nerf as we speak? If anything we all have these claims without proof but for some inexplicate reason, we the community has actually wanted to nerf Bayonetta. I'm gonna shut up, again before I get ranted, I got a bad feeling about this if we take this any further blade.

 

Dude, have you seen how the entire community is reacting to the nerf as we speak? If anything we all have these claims without proof but for some inexplicate reason, we the community has actually wanted to nerf Bayonetta. I'm gonna shut up, again before I get ranted, I got a bad feeling about this if we take this any further blade.

Well, stop making fallacious arguments then.

I will accept your claim that the competitive community largely appreciates the nerf.

That does not mean that the competitive community's outcry caused the nerf.

Correlation =/= Causation.

 

Not true and pure fiction. Witch Time was never op to begin with. high level players baited very easily and has several weaknesses like disjoint attacks penetrate witch time effect like Greninjas Smashes, didn't work with projectiles and many if you were willing to discover them.

Bayonetta has the worst rolls and spot dogde in the game, her landing lag is unique to her as more air specials she was using because of her combos, telegraph moves one miss and she could be punished hard. Also she is very light character she could be killed easily at 89% precent most of the time with good placed smash attacks or event specific gimmicks other characters have like little mac smashes which have super armor or his K.O punch which is instant stock loss for Bayonetta.

Bad match ups were floaty characters that were hard to combo like Ness and Lucas, Jigglypuff (now they are impossible) and heavy characters with rage depended moves and grabs. Bowser could killed her easy with 3 sideb grabs very easy to do to a Bayonetta with her bad neutral game...

If the community was willing to up the level of high play they could start helping others that had this problem with guides and infos like that.

What they chose to do??? Follow false prophets sperading FUD about an amazing character because they afraid the potential she had if they faced her in the hands of a talanted player. She was a wild card to players like ZeRo who for the life of him sucks in normal fighting games, look his Pokken videos, and afraid to lose his status because if he liked the character he would instantly stop protesting and choose her. But command inputs are difficult for his play style so he target her like Grekwart the Spanish player who lost like total amateur against avery good Bayonetta player in Spain's National and cried like a salty loser he is about the character being broken creating more havoc for a ban online with his followers.

So what do we want as a community? Create a bigger and safe environment for all the players to learn their character and develop the meta game more? Or to call us the worst community of whinners asking for nerfs because as of today the other players of the FGC think us like spoiled children that cannot adapt and with the first difficulty we ask for nerfs.

Competitive play is to differentiate the casuals for the try hards and the second groub should be rewarded for the time they spent with the game, not gimp them so the rest can follow.

You do not ask an athlete to cut his leg so a normal runner can catch up with him in a race.

Bayonetta requires skill to play her more that Sheik or Sonic or Zero Suit. The character has command input, buffers, slow moves and combo starters that need precision input and timing especially the 2 witch twist combos. A combo with Bayonetta requires more inputs than a grab followed by an up air to win, as Diddy was doing with ho hah.

So please play the character before parroting ZeRo's bias opinions. If he has anything to say about Bayonetta let us see him play her and prove to us that she is broken and toxic now after the patch.

I find it pretty stupid when people just negate people's opinions by saying "JOO JUST SAYN DIS BECAUSE "X" PERSON SAYD IT". No. Zero had zero influence on my opinions (no pun intended). Its sad that some people just wont accept that bayonetta was an unfair character and just count the very small flaws she had that the devs gave her in a failed attempt at balancing as an excuse to justify her... everything... The only thing bayo mains kept saying was git gud, even though you forget you are using a character that is (was) SIGNIFICANTLY better than the rest of the cast. Not even better as in character attributes, but, like... fundementally better. You really only needed to know her combo setups and how to start them, you didn't really need to have a strong sense of the fundementals of smash. I never once wanted a nerf, i was one of the ones that wanted to learn the mu but I am more than glad she got hammered.

I disliked bayonetta from day 1, but i dont want to argue further. She was broken, now she's not. End of story. She is no longer toxic to the community. Im happy, the noob is happy, the pro is happy, some of the bayo mains arent. Welp, deal with it. Better that than the ENTIRE community being toxic with only bayo mains happy.


Im done

 

Also, as long as we are discussing ZeRo's opinion:

I actually despised his attitude towards Bayonetta, because I considered it the height of hypocrisy. He always uses characters that are among the objective best, and he made a video telling others to "suck it up and get good". In my opinion, this invalidated his right to complain about another character being better than those he uses, and I linked him his own video in the comments section of his video whining about Bayonetta.

My opinion on Bayonetta is entirely independent of ZeRo's, and I was not among those campaigning for her to be nerfed.

That does not mean that I do not view the nerf as a good thing.

 

First person I've met that actually viewed the nerf as a bad thing in terms of the pros that play her. We're not the only ones that has to suck up and get good, he made a video about him playing Corrin, he admitted that it was hard. I'm good at Corrin, so he can't possibly give up on her, I think he should commit to it... Maybe the same with Bayo, but regardless he thinks those two are complicated.

 

Thank....God!!!!!

*Sakurai

 

Also, as long as we are discussing ZeRo's opinion:

I actually despised his attitude towards Bayonetta, because I considered it the height of hypocrisy. He always uses characters that are among the objective best, and he made a video telling others to "suck it up and get good". In my opinion, this invalidated his right to complain about another character being better than those he uses, and I linked him his own video in the comments section of his video whining about Bayonetta.

My opinion on Bayonetta is entirely independent of ZeRo's, and I was not among those campaigning for her to be nerfed.

That does not mean that I do not view the nerf as a good thing.

What do you mean, objective best? There is nothing objective about any tier lists or ideas of who is the best character in a smash game. It's all based on subjective human traits and tendencies and what is "easier" and what is "harder" for people to do.

 

Also, as long as we are discussing ZeRo's opinion:

I actually despised his attitude towards Bayonetta, because I considered it the height of hypocrisy. He always uses characters that are among the objective best, and he made a video telling others to "suck it up and get good". In my opinion, this invalidated his right to complain about another character being better than those he uses, and I linked him his own video in the comments section of his video whining about Bayonetta.

My opinion on Bayonetta is entirely independent of ZeRo's, and I was not among those campaigning for her to be nerfed.

That does not mean that I do not view the nerf as a good thing.

You are an educated, intelligent human being on the Internet. I appreciate your input into community discussions. Kudos to you. Also, feel free to check Sasori's posts before this to get a good idea of his classic arguments.

 

Why me what did I do?

 

I think this nerf is great, If you are a competitive player then great, she can't kill you with a random up-B, however if you play casually, she still works as you need her to since you probably aren't able to 0 to death Anyway.

 

Your just saying that because now Bayonetta isn't cheap anymore right... RIGHT??? And for those poor players sakes I hope your right about them still working as they need her to.

 

Your just saying that because now Bayonetta isn't cheap anymore right... RIGHT??? And for those poor players sakes I hope your right about them still working as they need her to.

Actually, I'm mostly saying it because I dislike the rage and bias that goes into most of the complaining (just as I did when people were calling for her to be nerfed).

I don't have a problem if you don't like the nerf. That is your right. No change they can make to the game would please everyone.

I do have a problem with the bad arguments being used to criticize the nerf, and thus, the developers. They get enough flak thrown at them for things they actually did to get scolded for things they didn't do.

And, no, I do not believe that they did this to satiate the relatively minuscule part of the fanbase that was complaining about Bayonetta. It doesn't fit the patterns we've seen from the devs before, it doesn't make business sense, and it doesn't fit in with the stated design goals that Sakurai laid out.

Does the nerf fall into line with those complaints? Yes, yes it does. Does that mean the complaints caused the nerf? Not at all.

Smash is too huge of a game to cater to a tiny, vocal subset of the community. And, yes, it's tiny. We're looking at, what, 12 million sales between both versions? And you think that a few thousand noisy competitors are going to rule what happens to the game?

No. No, that doesn't happen. Just like K. Rool didn't win the ballot, Wolf never came back, Melee mechanics haven't returned, and Ridley is still too big. The echo chamber that is Smashboards is not as large, or as influential, as you seem to think.

If you want to blame the developers, feel free. But blame them for what they actually did. Blame them for nerfing your favorite character. Blame them for ruining the things you think she needs to be viable. Blame them for drastically reducing her tier placement.

But don't blame them for listening to whiny people on the internet. Nintendo hasn't done that before (hey, look, Wind Waker came out with cel-shaded graphics, despite people hating on the reveal. Federation Force is still coming out despite the massive hatred IT has received), nor has the Smash dev team, and I don't think they're starting here.

 

So is it to soon to start singing "ding dong the witch is dead"?

 

So is it to soon to start singing "ding dong the witch is dead"?

Ont the contrary, it's rather too late someone already did that meme look at the earlier comments.

 

Ah I missed it. Oops

 

Ah I missed it. Oops

Bayo's still pretty good overall, so I don't think we should've been going on with the whole "witch is dead" thing anyways. I'd still place her top fifteenish on the board.

 

Unless another patch comes in to pulverize Bayo, maybe after that we can start singing the whole "Umbra Witch is dead" thing. And does it really matter how good a character is, I thought it was the person that manipulates them.

 

Unless another patch comes in to pulverize Bayo, maybe after that we can start singing the whole "Umbra Witch is dead" thing. And does it really matter how good a character is, I thought it was the person that manipulates them.

That's true. But Bayo is one of the easier ones to pick up in my opinion.

 

More so than Corrin or the other DLC characters?

 

Unless another patch comes in to pulverize Bayo, maybe after that we can start singing the whole "Umbra Witch is dead" thing. And does it really matter how good a character is, I thought it was the person that manipulates them.

More so than Corrin or the other DLC characters?

Yes. Low in behold, there are in fact characters and playable units in every genre that outshine every character or playable unit in their game's respective cast. Bayonetta was one such character, for supportng reasons previously mentioned and represented in this thread (extremely high damage combos, thoughtless punish game, gigantic hitboxes, etc.). If you are even a decent player and capable of putting strats like "short hop" and "cross ups" to your advantage, you would comparatively have had no trouble finding out all of her combos and performing them consistently by simply following DI and SDI. That's not so much the case anymore, but she still has combos, she still has a good punish game, and Witch Time can still get her heavy damage racking and really early kills. And if you say that's wrong in the case that you can't do it. . . well. . .

Spoiler: NOT MINE

Combos and mixups by I Catinia-Pisa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rolrTh3J7L0

 

Mossy Hero Soccer Sakurai oh that won't get annoying. And in all seriousness it would be a freakin miracle if they were to go through with a buff only patch. Who do you want buffed, triple D???

DDD definitely deserves a buff or two. Also Puff, Palutena, Duck Hunt...and probably a number more that I can't think of at the very moment. Don't you agree though? Balance that ****!!!

 

Sakurai is just that pissed off stepfather rn

 

DDD definitely deserves a buff or two. Also Puff, Palutena, Duck Hunt...and probably a number more that I can't think of at the very moment. Don't you agree though? Balance that ****!!!

Lucina, Marth, Lucas, Surprisingly Yoshi, Corrin ( I hope)... Yeah quite a bit that probably deserve better buffs after getting either none whatsoever or plain crap. Maybe some will get it but again it would be a freakin miracle if it were to be the case.

 

Yes. Low in behold, there are in fact characters and playable units in every genre that outshine every character or playable unit in their game's respective cast. Bayonetta was one such character, for supportng reasons previously mentioned and represented in this thread (extremely high damage combos, thoughtless punish game, gigantic hitboxes, etc.). If you are even a decent player and capable of putting strats like "short hop" and "cross ups" to your advantage, you would comparatively have had no trouble finding out all of her combos and performing them consistently by simply following DI and SDI. That's not so much the case anymore, but she still has combos, she still has a good punish game, and Witch Time can still get her heavy damage racking and really early kills. And if you say that's wrong in the case that you can't do it. . . well. . .

Spoiler: NOT MINE

Combos and mixups by I Catinia-Pisa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rolrTh3J7L0

That is true, I am a decent player, but my playable unit with Bayo with other characters I commit to is no contest, especially now. And for such reasons, you still decide to cite proof that she's still cheap, but now it must require the right player to be considered this way. I think I'm gonna stick with Corrin, the better DLC fighter, because even before the patch there is no way I'm mastering the umbra witch.

 

My concern is that she is a character devoid of a main strategy now. Her specials were originally designed to link together. Now, they still look and function the same, but the linking property has been made super unreliable, which makes me question whether or not her entire character is dead in higher level play. It actually looks like she can now be punished by LANDING upB. It seems silly to make mechanics that ONLY work in low level play simply because the average person doesn't know how to SDI. I guess reverse B'ing will be a must now. It also looks like bullet arts might be more relevant now, in order to punish SDI.

 

Your either concern about your main pratically being ruined or your trying to adapt and think of the other options you have to pulverize competitors, make up your mind bruh. I'm only saying that because by the looks of it, any further into this dilemma and we're gonna need to search for a straightjacket.

 

I was honestly fine with bayo even before the nerfs. SDI is your friend.

 

Not if you have no clue what it is or how to work it. And that is the most insulting picture of Corrin is has ever been my displeasure of having forced to wrap around my brain.

 

Lucina, Marth, Lucas, Surprisingly Yoshi, Corrin ( I hope)... Yeah quite a bit that probably deserve better buffs after getting either none whatsoever or plain crap. Maybe some will get it but again it would be a freakin miracle if it were to be the case.

As a Yoshi main, I would be ECSTATIC for a buff. I don't think Yoshi has been changed at all since the game came out, so that would be crazy!