Patch 1.1.3

[TimG57867]

this character might actually be good now :O

all that's left is to make hammer and n-air not be useless trash

N-Air could use a big startup reduction but I wouldn't call it trash and I don't think Hammer's meant to be usable in neutral. I'd much rather see them address Kirby's aerial and Smash attack frame data and fix Final Cutter along with possibly making Down B a better juggle breaking tool. Also, apparently seems to have gotten a run/walk speed buff so speed adjustments are apparently not out of the question afterall. If they plan to do other characters in the future, than Kirby's air and run speed should be increased to .90 and 1.6 respectively. The increase wouldn't be irrationally higher and his kit would work so much better at those values.

 

[FreeGamer]

i'm probably just spoiled by PM kirby's n-air, but this one has too much startup to be worth using over his other aerials

 

[TimG57867]

i'm probably just spoiled by PM kirby's n-air, but this one has too much startup to be worth using over his other aerials

Yeah. Our current N-Air is only good for catching spot dodges, getups, and punishing whiffs as well as being relatively safe on shield. I never played PM a lot but recently got to play it with some of my college friends and was amazed by how much better Kirby's disadvantage state was with a frame 3 N-Air. Given how his aerials and air speed got nerfed from Brawl with the exception of D-Air, I don't think improving Kirby's aerial frame data is unreasonable. N-Air in particular out to hit on Frame 3 or 4.

 

[Bribery]

Nair is good for its long-lasting hitbox and low landing lag compared to his other aerials.

Kirby still has moves that need tweeks (Dash Attack and Hammer are still trash) but this Up Throw buff was the one he needed the most imo. If he doesn't get any more buffs, I'd be okay with it. He's significantly better now than he was on release.

 

[TimG57867]

Yeah. IMO Kirby still needs to have his Final Cutter made into a safe and effective offensive option and his aerial frame data has a lot of from for improvment (making in F-Air and N-Air hit on frame 6 and 3 respectively would be incredible) Down B should also become safer on startup be it either cutting it or giving it super armor. I think Kirby still has the ways to go before he becomes a notable competitive threat but at least this buff should keep him firmly out of low tier territory.

 

[KenMeister]

this character might actually be good now :O

all that's left is to make hammer and n-air not be useless trash

Nair is pretty alright actually. FF nair is a pretty good way of stuffing bad approaches if you bait an opponent into one.

 

[Dessa]

Yeah, I don't mind nair. It's situational, but not useless. Hammer on the other hand...

 

[Poupoko]

Dash attack and Hammer have their use. They're not really too good on their own and I hardly ever use them, but occasionally I'll use dash attack to catch ledge bound rolls or as a mixup to dash grab when I want that launch angle that Usmash or Fair can't give. Hammer is insta-kill after 19% on any character (without rage!) if you get that Shield Break.

Final Cutter would need a massive frame data buff to make it safe and I don't know how much it can be changed without making it obnoxious. Remember the dev team is trying to balance this for nearly all levels of play and Kirby with a super fast Final Cutter and slightly punishable Stone would just be spammed by 8-year olds or something. Also, personally having such a campy option in Final Cutter would make Kirby a bit boring.

Anyway, I think Kirby is pretty alright now. It's not like we need to be top tier or anything to win. I don't think Kirby needed or needs any more changes (buffs are always welcome though!). But at least now, I don't have to worry about getting Bowser to 250% to land a reliable KO when he can just KO me with a Ftilt at like 3%.

 

[TimG57867]

I don't think fixing Final Cutter without making it broken would be too tough. Either make hit on Frame 5 and leave the end lag as it is or cut the startup to frame 14 and cut the end lag a bit. It doesn't need to be Mario levels of obnoxious. It just needs to be good enough so that I can knock an opponent of the air without them being able to dodge on reaction and be able to space the projectile so that I don't get punished if they shield at max distance.

But frankly with this Up Throw buff, Final Cutter is probably the only thing I feel NEEDS to be addressed before they stop patching the game. Kirby's matchup spread would improve so much with an effective anti-air and if they're put so much effort into buffing the Hammer (which I couldn't care less about) I don't see why Final Cutter should be left ragged. Other stuff would help a lot but that's the last game changing buff I feel needs to be done along with speed adjustments.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

NAIR is pretty good, better than Pikachus, and if Im not wrong hammer has a longer reach now

Hahaha are you kidding? Kirby nair is nowhere near as viable or useful as Pikachu's.
I am glad up throw has been buffed. But Hammer is still garbage, his aerials are too slow on start up. And for an aeriel character why offstage nair is suicide?

But on the bright side, I am glad Kirby has been buffed.

 

[Dessa]

Hahaha are you kidding? Kirby nair is nowhere near as viable or useful as Pikachu's.
I am glad up throw has been buffed. But Hammer is still garbage, his aerials are too slow on start up. And for an aeriel character why offstage nair is suicide?

But on the bright side, I am glad Kirby has been buffed.

I guess I don't think of Kirby as an aerial character. I find I get better results, usually, when I spend more time on the ground.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Hahaha are you kidding? Kirby nair is nowhere near as viable or useful as Pikachu's.
I am glad up throw has been buffed. But Hammer is still garbage, his aerials are too slow on start up. And for an aeriel character why offstage nair is suicide?

But on the bright side, I am glad Kirby has been buffed.

When did he ever say that Kirby was as viable or useful as Pika? It's quite possible our Nair is better, and several other moves of ours are possibly better then this kind, but he does have some very useful things we lack.

And come on....be reasonable for this Ariels, or at least try, Dair 18 frames, sure I see it as slow, but (debatably)being one of the most versatile and (again, debatable) best dairs, it's startup shouldn't be really much to complain about because it's trying to stay balanced, and seriously despite its power, it can kill people very early from Dair footstool.
There's more to Frame Data then just startup
I don't think your complaining about Bair at all, I hope.

Fair it does look like it should be faster for sure, but with the recent buff, let's give it some time....maybe it's actually not really that bad if these new buffs for it compensate, plus it's lower landing lag too.

Nair, this I see because of its startup and MONSTROUS end lag, but that landing lag is one of the lowest of all Ariels and it has a few setups at low percent stake and other uses, so it's decent onstage, near worthless offstage unless it's high, but still.

Uair.....is meh...it's ok at juggling but it's not quick so you won't get more then like 2 on most characters unless you fall with with it and use something like an Utilt after and more. It's low landing lag too is not that bad.

I'm in school so can't say much more, but just try not to only look at startup, there's more to his Ariels then just startup and I think they are pretty decent.
I mean don't get me wrong I understand that it's weird that 3 are F10 but that's not even bad exactly either.

 

[Altair357]

Or we could just get good

 

[SRUFUS3D]

Or we could just get good

As I always strive to do. But still I feel like Kirby could be a better rounded character.

When did he ever say that Kirby was as viable or useful as Pika? It's quite possible our Nair is better, and several other moves of ours are possibly better then this kind, but he does have some very useful things we lack.

And come on....be reasonable for this Ariels, or at least try, Dair 18 frames, sure I see it as slow, but (debatably)being one of the most versatile and (again, debatable) best dairs, it's startup shouldn't be really much to complain about because it's trying to stay balanced, and seriously despite its power, it can kill people very early from Dair footstool.
There's more to Frame Data then just startup
I don't think your complaining about Bair at all, I hope.

Fair it does look like it should be faster for sure, but with the recent buff, let's give it some time....maybe it's actually not really that bad if these new buffs for it compensate, plus it's lower landing lag too.

Nair, this I see because of its startup and MONSTROUS end lag, but that landing lag is one of the lowest of all Ariels and it has a few setups at low percent stake and other uses, so it's decent onstage, near worthless offstage unless it's high, but still.

Uair.....is meh...it's ok at juggling but it's not quick so you won't get more then like 2 on most characters unless you fall with with it and use something like an Utilt after and more. It's low landing lag too is not that bad.

I'm in school so can't say much more, but just try not to only look at startup, there's more to his Ariels then just startup and I think they are pretty decent.
I mean don't get me wrong I understand that it's weird that 3 are F10 but that's not even bad exactly either.

I don't only think of start up BTW, Kirby's frame data needs to be improved over all. I just don't want to sound too demanding. Asking for buffs is for another thread isn't it?

Originally I saying that Pikachu's nair is more useful than Kirby's. I was not comparing all of these character's tools if that's the case Pika mops the floor with Kirby.

I am just being honest. Kirby is not bad but he can be better.

 

[Nickname87]

does the increased hitlag modifier on fair affect sheilds too?

 

[FreeGamer]

He's still gonna struggle against anyone who can outrun him and/or camp him, thankfully it won't be as painful now. ^_^

 

[VPTurnip]

But frankly with this Up Throw buff, Final Cutter is probably the only thing I feel NEEDS to be addressed before they stop patching the game.

I agree that having an anti-air (and an actually useful projectile) would make Kirby climb several spots on the tier list, but I feel a little two-sided about it.
On the one hand, if he had a good projectile (two if you copied a character with a good one, OhgodnotthePikmin) his matchups with, as you said, several characters would drastically improve. He couldn't go toe to toe with the Electric Mouse, but he'd be able to snuff up in the Link, Dark Pit, and Bowser Jr matchups, to name a few.
On the other hand, Final Cutter is, simply, NOT a good move. Just, overall, it's not useful for combos except as a string follow-up. It's not worth it's risk for it's low damage and lag. Most more-than-casual Kirby's just don't use it very often.


That said, how would you improve it exactly, and how do you think it'd fit in as one of Kirby's tools if it was improved?
Could it lead into combos for once? Maybe just keep people away? Could it finally snag people in the air? Oh, if it had a much, much faster start-up time, it could be really useful, that's true..

(More of a train of thought post.)

 

[TimG57867]

I agree that having an anti-air (and an actually useful projectile) would make Kirby climb several spots on the tier list, but I feel a little two-sided about it.
On the one hand, if he had a good projectile (two if you copied a character with a good one, OhgodnotthePikmin) his matchups with, as you said, several characters would drastically improve. He couldn't go toe to toe with the Electric Mouse, but he'd be able to snuff up in the Link, Dark Pit, and Bowser Jr matchups, to name a few.
On the other hand, Final Cutter is, simply, NOT a good move. Just, overall, it's not useful for combos except as a string follow-up. It's not worth it's risk for it's low damage and lag. Most more-than-casual Kirby's just don't use it very often.


That said, how would you improve it exactly, and how do you think it'd fit in as one of Kirby's tools if it was improved?
Could it lead into combos for once? Maybe just keep people away? Could it finally snag people in the air? Oh, if it had a much, much faster start-up time, it could be really useful, that's true..

(More of a train of thought post.)

The reason Final Cutter isn't good is because it's not only bad for recovering but can't be used in neutral due to the massive startup, stunted range on the projectile, and severe endlag. Fixing it would simply require a combination of the above to be addressed. I think it would be most useful overall if it became an all-round decent zoning option to give Kirby some breathing room and approach safely. Not spammable enough to literally wall opponents out but good enough to help you get in and prevent foes from camping you silly. Assuming they don't want it to be OP in casual play, I'd go one of two roots:

1. Cut startup to Frame 14, reduce endlag, and improve the projectile's range. This would allow you to knock foes out of the air before they can air dodge and make more use of the projectile for approach.

2. Cut startup to Frame 5, leave the end lag, and possibly improve the range. Here we sacrifice zoning for a stronger close quarters option that can be used out of shield.

There's several ways they could go about it. But in any case, the startup, more than anything else, just needs to be addressed. If Kirby is gonna get a bad recovery move, he should at least be able to use it in neutral. It likely has that much startup to give you extra distance on recovery, but in practice it just isn't worth because it gives your foe all the more time to gimp you.

 

[VPTurnip]

It looks like we agree, the start-up time is one of the moves biggest weaknesses overall.
Yeah, it lacks as a recovery, it's bad as a projectile, and it's not even a good anti-air (a simple airdodge or DI can avoid it).
On top of that, it just doesn't do enough damage or knockback to even justify using it at all, imo. It's range is hilariously bad too, however it'd look kind of weird if it were increased too much. xD

On another note: Kirby's uthrow is finally here! I'm so happy! ^_^ Kirby dancing and food for every Gourmet all around!
His other buffs are great too.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

It's huge transendent disjointed range is all its got, but too many flaws to be useful.
Seriously just cut its end lag or startup for something in return for weakening the meteor on if.

 

[Bribery]

Apparently Kirby got a small run speed buff too! He's slightly faster than R.O.B now.
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes.425921/#post-20610672

 

[TimG57867]

Apparently Kirby got a small run speed buff too! He's slightly faster than R.O.B now.
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes.425921/#post-20610672

So I WASN'T imagining things. Funnily enough, after I made that comment about them buffing Mewtwo's run speed, I started labbling Kirby's new Up Throw, and while I was messing around, Kirby suddenly seemed faster than usual. Guess Mewtwo wasn't the only one that got the speed treatment! Gee, I wonder what convinced the devs to suddenly start adjusting character mobility. In any case this is great. Getting punishes should be easier now.

 

[Nickname87]

Apparently Kirby got a small run speed buff too! He's slightly faster than R.O.B now.
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes.425921/#post-20610672

nice does that mean they increased his air mobility too?

 

[Bribery]

nice does that mean they increased his air mobility too?

No his other mobility attributes (air speed, walk speed, fall speed) are unchanged according to the patch notes thread.

 

[Xandercosm]

I like the faster ground speed thing. They should have buffed it even more, though...

 

[Phan7om]

Ive been practicing movement with Kirby the past month or so, and when the patch came out I swear he was faster. Thought it was too good to be true so I assumed it was a placebo and didnt say anything about it. I feel kinda pro (not really lol) that I was able to catch that change myself.

 

[TimG57867]

I like the faster ground speed thing. They should have buffed it even more, though...

Yeah. The consensus seems to be that it's just faster than 's which means Kirby went from 1.5 to about 1.57-1.59 or something in that ball park. I personally would have just taken him all the way to the 1.6 speed tier alongside and but at this point you gotta take what you can get.

 

[Xandercosm]

Yeah. The consensus seems to be that it's just faster than 's which means Kirby went from 1.5 to about 1.57-1.59 or something in that ball park. I personally would have just taken him all the way to the 1.6 speed tier alongside and but at this point you gotta take what you can get.

Well, after this latest patch, how much higher do you think Kirby should be on the tier list?

 

[TimG57867]

Well, after this latest patch, how much higher do you think Kirby should be on the tier list?

Dunno really. This patch has definitely locked Kirby out of low tier (I don't think he was ever low tier but many started suspecting he was after the 1.1.1 patch) and possibly low mid as well since he can now kill in a pinch and beat shields along with now being almost as fast as Mario. I think he's either a mid-mid or high mid now. I am eager to see how the top Kirby's like MikeKirby and Triple R perform now with these improved assets.

 

[Dessa]

Any thoughts on the Vs. Cloud matchup? Looks pretty tough to me, though an inhale might help a bit.

 

[TimG57867]

Any thoughts on the Vs. Cloud matchup? Looks pretty tough to me, though an inhale might help a bit.

I've heard that getting in is hard but his weight and lack of get off me options make him decent to combo and gimping him without Limit Break is free. Don't have the Wii U right now though and college Wi-Fi sucks so I don't have any experience to go on.

 

[Xandercosm]

Dunno really. This patch has definitely locked Kirby out of low tier (I don't think he was ever low tier but many started suspecting he was after the 1.1.1 patch) and possibly low mid as well since he can now kill in a pinch and beat shields along with now being almost as fast as Mario. I think he's either a mid-mid or high mid now. I am eager to see how the top Kirby's like MikeKirby and Triple R perform now with these improved assets.

What do you mean by "kill in a pinch"?

 

[TimG57867]

What do you mean by "kill in a pinch"?

By that I mean that if his foe is starting to get to crazy rage percents, he'll now be able to kill them with putting himself in too much risk, and if he dies first, it'll become easier for him to even it up as he won't be forced to land Smash attack raw or make a risky play to come back from a deficit anymore. Come to think of it, counterpicking will also be more effective now because Kirby will have a choice between Dreamland and Town and City to abuse his new Up Throw along with Duck Hunt becoming even stronger with the tree.

 

[Nickname87]

Not sure if this was possible before but fair now can true combo into d tilt f tilt pp up tilt and first 2 hits of jab

edit: YOOOoooo fair combos into fair

 

[Xandercosm]

By that I mean that if his foe is starting to get to crazy rage percents, he'll now be able to kill them with putting himself in too much risk, and if he dies first, it'll become easier for him to even it up as he won't be forced to land Smash attack raw or make a risky play to come back from a deficit anymore. Come to think of it, counterpicking will also be more effective now because Kirby will have a choice between Dreamland and Town and City to abuse his new Up Throw along with Duck Hunt becoming even stronger with the tree.

Sweet. I forgot about that. Well, I'm excited to see how Kirby's meta develops in the future.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

We viable now??? Kirby feels much better now. I have the feeling the angle on his Up-Throw changed too, but it may be placebo.
The Cloud matchup feels pretty close. I lost quite a bit on my first matches against him but now it's a lot closer. The Blade Beam Copy Ability is very fun to use too!

 

[Xandercosm]

We viable now??? Kirby feels much better now. I have the feeling the angle on his Up-Throw changed too, but it may be placebo.
The Cloud matchup feels pretty close. I lost quite a bit on my first matches against him but now it's a lot closer. The Blade Beam Copy Ability is very fun to use too!

Kirby feels solidly mid-tier now.

 

[rambon99]

Any thoughts on the Vs. Cloud matchup? Looks pretty tough to me, though an inhale might help a bit.

ehh I'd probably say it's around 40/60 ; 45/55 in Cloud's favor.
Disjointed hitboxes straight up **** Kirby, his air mobility is pretty decent, so landing is a *****, and he already kills most characters early. (So prepare to die at 30-40% when you get hit with limit break down-b)
The pros we have is that his fastest options aren't too fast, his grab conversions are pretty bad (only combo at low %, don't really kill), and because of his weight and fall speed he get combo'd pretty easy, not to mention how terrible his recovery is without limit break so gimping is pretty easy as well.

We viable now???

Ehh I feel like Kirby's always been somewhat viable. Sure we have some terrible matchups but we also have some pretty good ones. He's never been high tier, but I feel like he's alwasy been at least mid tier. Probably High-Mid or Low-High

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Ehh I feel like Kirby's always been somewhat viable. Sure we have some terrible matchups but we also have some pretty good ones. He's never been high tier, but I feel like he's alwasy been at least mid tier. Probably High-Mid or Low-High

I know! I think I might've worded this not so well. Maybe I exagerated a little bit, but I said it more on the mood of the lastest patch (1.1.1) in which people thought Kirby was hit very hard by the Shield Stun changes. I mean, he got more mobility now. Still slow in the air, but now he can be more of a threat!

In my opinion being patient against Cloud is a must. Mainly against his Limit Breaks, in which a Shield must be ready. I think I was hit by Finishing Touch like three times on those two days mostly against Clouds... many of them aren't that good (with him), but I was pretty close to the hitbox. Its lag is no comparison to the KO Punch (if it misses), but it is way safer to avoid, at least in my opinion.
Still on the Cloud matchup but speaking of his projectile, it is pretty good against Shields. I found that Down-tilt "clashes" with Blade Beam. So, if you don't want to have part of your Shield lost, here is a way to keep it It's laggy as heck so Cloud shouldn't be able to punish you. But it demands timing!

 

[da K.I.D.]

I still wont lose to any kirby ever, but this does help him a lot in certain matchups.

Honestly, its a very preliminary observation, but we might beat sheik now