Patch 1.1.1

[Wald0]

It's really disappointing to be honest that customs are going the way of the dinosaur. :/ Soo much potential that is being squandered IMO.

Customs Dr Mario was too OP. (mega vitamins across the stage) along with custom move infinites

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

I don't agree 100%. Maybe like 60% agreed. Reason is that her Jab can push people off the stage, and I have a crap ton of videos where I Jab and then go offstage for a spike. It makes them pratfall, so you can usually follow up with a spike. Just have Jab 2 come out faster, which would mean Jab 1's endlag is reduced.

I think the issue could be fixed by giving Samus' jab the same utility as DK's, in that it pulls characters in at the tip which would allow us to combo our jabs as well as mix up for a nearly guaranteed jab 1 + grab, while also keeping the pushout hitbox closer in so we can still cause pratfalls.

Having Jab 2 be faster would be nice as well, but if I had to pick only one solution (which will never happen anyway) I'd rather have utility over speed.

 

[leiraD]

I just wanted to take a minute and relay some feedback about what changes the patch has made to my overall matches and see if other parties can corroborate, specifically regarding the buff to nair. Previously, I'd try to combo uairs into a second uair or fair, depending on the opponents di. I still try for those, but now, because nair has proved to be more reliable, I'd been mixing up into nair. I've also had a lot more success in punishing read air-dodges using nair. The more I've tried that approach in my past 30-40 games, the more I've found that its significantly helped me gain stage control and set up for off stage pressure, particularly dair, fair, or even another nair. Resultantly, I've been able to get a lot more early dair spikes and close out a lot of stocks below 70%.


On a mildly seperate note, I've also found it easier to apply safe, off-stage, f-air pressure. I'd assume that this is because of the 6 frames of reduced cooldown, but again, I'd like to see if other Samus players have been having similar results or if the changes I'm experiencing are isolated to my particular play style.


Hope to hear some feedback.

 

[Xygonn]

I just wanted to take a minute and relay some feedback about what changes the patch has made to my overall matches and see if other parties can corroborate, specifically regarding the buff to nair. Previously, I'd try to combo uairs into a second uair or fair, depending on the opponents di. I still try for those, but now, because nair has proved to be more reliable, I'd been mixing up into nair. I've also had a lot more success in punishing read air-dodges using nair. The more I've tried that approach in my past 30-40 games, the more I've found that its significantly helped me gain stage control and set up for off stage pressure, particularly dair, fair, or even another nair. Resultantly, I've been able to get a lot more early dair spikes and close out a lot of stocks below 70%.


On a mildly seperate note, I've also found it easier to apply safe, off-stage, f-air pressure. I'd assume that this is because of the 6 frames of reduced cooldown, but again, I'd like to see if other Samus players have been having similar results or if the changes I'm experiencing are isolated to my particular play style.


Hope to hear some feedback.

Here's what I've noticed. After the first 40%, I go for fair instead of uair as my main damage builder. As a result, uair is sometimes fresh for me and I get uair kills. I basically never got them before the patch.

I do go for the nair->dair strings more now than I did before.

I use bair all the freaking time. I don't feel naked when I'm in the air and my back is turned.

Nair is much better. The larger hitbox gives it some pretty decent disjoint (best of any of our aerials). I use it much more off stage than I used to. I find myself even using SH nair and hitting shield with both hits a lot to get some pretty good shield pressure. I wait just a bit to throw it out to try to time the autocancel or hit the back hit just as I land. It's not horribly unsafe on shield.

More shield breaks. I realize now we probably had these all along, but now I'm more mindful of the 42 shield hp. Zair, bair, CS shield breaks are nice (bair CS would work, but bair and CS are both usually a bit stale). Or nair CS even.

 

[JAZZ_]

I really like the few changes we got. I have a tool now in Nair to stop the Cp. F. rushdown>full jump approach by CS shield cancel> jump> nair. I break shields by baiting with homing missile then go for the SM>CS all the time. Its not a perfect patch, but it doesnt take much to make us happy, now if only we could use more of our broken moves.. (fsmash, usmash, dsmash, Grab)

 

[leiraD]

I've definitely noticed more shield break. Pretty doable on low level players and becoming increasingly common against mid-high level as well.

 

[DungeonMaster]

leiraD

Yep, I can echo your comments. I finally had a full day of nothing since my return to work from surgery and I played my ass off.
The patch was overall a good buff and re-balanced a pile of matchups. There are still many that need changing as we all well know, but I'm pleased overall.
It really comes down to our OOS options being virtually the same, and everyone else's got worse.

In fact the frustration level was only high vs. a mario and pika from the pits of hell, who nonchalantly abuses their lingering hitboxes.
I'm still looking forward to the next patch, hopefully we get the n-air treatment to our other extended hurtboxes.

 

[leiraD]

leiraD

Yep, I can echo your comments. I finally had a full day of nothing since my return to work from surgery and I played my *** off.
The patch was overall a good buff and re-balanced a pile of matchups. There are still many that need changing as we all well know, but I'm pleased overall.
It really comes down to our OOS options being virtually the same, and everyone else's got worse.

In fact the frustration level was only high vs. a mario and pika from the pits of hell, who nonchalantly abuses their lingering hitboxes.
I'm still looking forward to the next patch, hopefully we get the n-air treatment to our other extended hurtboxes.

Thanks for the feedback. I think that the matchups i've found nair most helpful for (so far) are falcon and the space animals. Because of the disjoint, I've found it REALLY easy to gimp hit their upb with nair and quickly close out those stocks, especially on stages with large blast zones like battlefield. Against falcon, Its just really easy to take stage control and then dair for the stock.

 

[Boney]

I was using nair a lot more before the patch as an anti air and as a ledge guard tool. But now I throw it a lot more in the neutral now as well. It basically covers all the space Zair whiffs so it'll punish grounded approaches trying to bypass a zair wall. Of course this leads to tech chases and overall better positioning. It's an ok tool now and relative to our other moves it's really valuable now and feels integral to our kit. It's essy to fall back when you hit a shield with it so it's not so punishable.

Less landing lag on fair is nice and basically you're not gonna get punished as hard if you screw up with it. But not nair and fair have to much ending lag and landing lag in my opinion. Nair could also be out faster as well, so it could be a better combo breaker.

Thought about making a thread about it but I'll just ask here. Do you think Samus was better off in 1.03 with an amazing ftilt and missile and charge shot ledge cancellings, or now with a working up smash and a working nair and the little bells and whistles on fair and up b?

1.03 was a lot better for me because ftilt being a safer gtfo move and it being an incredible kill confirm (which is what Samus needs the most, reliable kill options) I'm glad 1.1.1 at least didn't abandon us like the last patch but I'm still bitter about how they butchered her best move.

 

[Scream]

Thought about making a thread about it but I'll just ask here. Do you think Samus was better off in 1.03 with an amazing ftilt and missile and charge shot ledge cancellings, or now with a working up smash and a working nair and the little bells and whistles on fair and up b?

Which universe are you from?

I do think we are better off now, Nair is love, nair is life
What really bugs me tho is 16f -> 9f Shieldstun on CS, that **** ****ing stupid now.

 

[Vyrnx]

I actually really like Samus' usmash. I never used it before because I'd had issues with it, it didn't scoop, and I didn't try to use it as an anti air like I was supposed to. But it rarely screws up when used from below an opponent (though hits 1 and 2 do occasionally) and its knock back is worth the risk.

 

[Boney]

Which universe are you from?

I do think we are better off now, Nair is love, nair is life
What really bugs me tho is 16f -> 9f Shieldstun on CS, that **** ****ing stupid now.

Up smash definately works as intended now. It's a bad up smash because it leaves us without the option to run up and smash and the tiny hitboxes makes airdodging it super easy unlike any other up smash. But if it connects, 95% of the time it'll carry on fine unless you barely graze with it.

And it's "worth it" because we don't have a good alternative, move is garbage but it's what we got.

 

[Scream]

Up smash definately works as intended now..

It better not!

But if it connects, 95% of the time it'll carry on fine unless you barely graze with it.

That is nothing like what i experience. More like 40%

And it's "worth it" because we don't have a good alternative, move is garbage but it's what we got.

I'm doing fine without it.
It is definitly not "worth it", if there is a stronge chance that you can lose all your advantage or even die if you rely on this ****ty move.
As an Anti-Air or AD read there are a lot of alternatives. In competetive gaming one does not rely on gambling.

 

[Afro Smash]

I use up smash a fair bit, its still absolute trash vs people on platforms, and doesn't suck people in at the very edge of the first hit, but it is strong and active, and its good for reads and oos punishes vs taller characters

 

[Emerlad_Element]

It better not!


That is nothing like what i experience. More like 40%


I'm doing fine without it.
It is definitly not "worth it", if there is a stronge chance that you can lose all your advantage or even die if you rely on this ****ty move.
As an Anti-Air or AD read there are a lot of alternatives. In competetive gaming one does not rely on gambling.

To each their own I suppose. Up-Smash has helped me more times then I can count, my favorite being an air dodge read after down throw. Also works wonders on bigger characters since a running Up-Smash will connect on them. All tied together with good knock back. I understand where you're coming from though, its little quirks have also gotten me into trouble. Like I said to each their own but I personally like the move.

 

[Emerlad_Element]

I use up smash a fair bit, its still absolute trash vs people on platforms, and doesn't suck people in at the very edge of the first hit, but it is strong and active, and its good for reads and oos punishes vs taller characters

Even if Up-Smash was good vs opponents on the platform, Up-Tilt, U-Air, or SA would still be better options in that situation anyway so it's not like that means much. Imo anyway.

 

[Afro Smash]

Not if they're at kill percent

 

[MOM Samus]

I use up smash a fair bit, its still absolute trash vs people on platforms, and doesn't suck people in at the very edge of the first hit, but it is strong and active, and its good for reads and oos punishes vs taller characters

I still think ours deserves to be more powerful than Mewtwo's and Roy's.

 

[Afro Smash]

I still think ours deserves to be more powerful than Mewtwo's and Roy's.

Oh definitely, especially since we can't scoop from below

 

[MOM Samus]

Oh definitely, especially since we can't scoop from below

Think it should kill like Bowser's? His killed Rosa at 40%.

 

[Boney]

Yeah I land up smash by doing air dodge reads off grabs, and by baiting some airdodges by jumping and fast falling.

I'd prefer it having a frontal hitbox like Marth's that scoops up people even if it meant going back to the old knockback. Not having an easy to land vertical ko move really hurts as a lot because we're gonna struggle a lot koing as most ko's in this game are vertical. It doesn't help that up air isn't a good kill move either.

It's a pipe dream I know but damn it, let me dream.
The fact that Samus' moveset fails against small target infuriates me. Jab, and non angled ftilt and fsmash are super prone to not hitting, and makes nair a lot harder to land as well. You get dtilt and down smash but those are suboptimal punishes and Screwattack that has a small horizontal hitbox and can easily whiff as well.

 

[MOM Samus]

Rosa can escape out of Screw attack due to Luma, making that MU even worse than it already is. Mega Man, Olimar, an Rosa have gotta be in her top 5 worst.

Anf F-tilt is still alright. If you space it at the max and use the downward version, there's little punish. With the patch now, Samus is decent. Very powerful, which is good, but she really needed the damage buffs to increase her shield stun power. Seamus is strong but weak. Not really adding up since she is 6th heaviest.

 

[JAZZ_]

Rosa can escape out of Screw attack due to Luma, making that MU even worse than it already is. Mega Man, Olimar, an Rosa have gotta be in her top 5 worst.

Anf F-tilt is still alright. If you space it at the max and use the downward version, there's little punish. With the patch now, Samus is decent. Very powerful, which is good, but she really needed the damage buffs to increase her shield stun power. Seamus is strong but weak. Not really adding up since she is 6th heaviest.

mega text really brings out your frustration

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Rosa is hardly a bad matchup, let alone her worst.

 

[Afro Smash]

Samus is actually one of the better characters to take on Rosa imo, like she has gravitational pull and lumeat shield, but zairs a great poke, and her height makes her susceptible to samus' best pressure like sh Bair

 

[DungeonMaster]

leiraD Agreed, I've also found it works vs. some recoveries I would not have initially guessed - I've gimped DK, Bowser, Ike and Marcina (shield breaker) often trading rather than clean kill but who cares? They die.
Horizontal recoveries like DK suffer much more with nair than fair because of the angle. Fought a lot of DK recently for some random reason.
I still can't get the n-air on mariobros, their disjoints are often larger and harder to predict than even swords (because they're #$%&^ invisible). It's still fall straight down f-air that works best.

As for the question of was Samus better off in earlier patches vs. present, I personally rank the loss of the missile canceled tether ledge trump as a major blow we haven't recovered from.
I never got to use it to full effect, but the raw strength of a guaranteed trump in the metagame outweighs the other fixes.
That being said, I'm having enormous fun with Samus in this patch. My personal top fix is d-air. We need larger hitbox on d-air, we need it to match the animations.
I can live with "you have to be precise, you have to be good to play this character". That's fine, onus is on me to up my game and angle my tilts and f-smash to hit the smaller characters and stupid jank like crouching animations. It's frustrating, but I can cope. I really can't stand Mario's d-air hitting when I'm no where near his foot and my own d-air going straight through his head. That drives me nuts. I know the hitbox like the back of my hand, that doesn't change the raw irritation to see it miss. This move is slow as tar, they threw out 90% of its true combo ability and it misses half the cast out of a SH.
This is all old news of course.

 

[JAZZ_]

leiraD Agreed, I've also found it works vs. some recoveries I would not have initially guessed - I've gimped DK, Bowser, Ike and Marcina (shield breaker) often trading rather than clean kill but who cares? They die.
Horizontal recoveries like DK suffer much more with nair than fair because of the angle. Fought a lot of DK recently for some random reason.
I still can't get the n-air on mariobros, their disjoints are often larger and harder to predict than even swords (because they're #$%&^ invisible). It's still fall straight down f-air that works best.

As for the question of was Samus better off in earlier patches vs. present, I personally rank the loss of the missile canceled tether ledge trump as a major blow we haven't recovered from.
I never got to use it to full effect, but the raw strength of a guaranteed trump in the metagame outweighs the other fixes.
That being said, I'm having enormous fun with Samus in this patch. My personal top fix is d-air. We need larger hitbox on d-air, we need it to match the animations.
I can live with "you have to be precise, you have to be good to play this character". That's fine, onus is on me to up my game and angle my tilts and f-smash to hit the smaller characters and stupid jank like crouching animations. It's frustrating, but I can cope. I really can't stand Mario's d-air hitting when I'm no where near his foot and my own d-air going straight through his head. That drives me nuts. I know the hitbox like the back of my hand, that doesn't change the raw irritation to see it miss. This move is slow as tar, they threw out 90% of its true combo ability and it misses half the cast out of a SH.
This is all old news of course.

I think we all agree that they need to re-examine the hit boxes on all of Samus' moves. And even after 1.1.1. your video still holds true to many of the broken issues with Samus.

 

[Boney]

Yeah dair has been driving me nuts as well. Reading the roll and it going through people drives me nuts as well.

Samus is actually one of the better characters to take on Rosa imo, like she has gravitational pull and lumeat shield, but zairs a great poke, and her height makes her susceptible to samus' best pressure like sh Bair

And we're one of the most susceptible characters to her up airs. It's not a good match up but it's not a particular bad one either.

 

[zblaqk]

Tbh, I want better missiles. Not even damage wise, just tracking and firing speed. I mean look at the Mii version of missiles... its disgusting in comparison lol.

But I personally have never had issues with RosaLuma. Zair actually eats her ***hole.

 

[zblaqk]

what do guys think about giving Samus' Ftilit the Falco up-air treatment (IE no sourspot) and no strange hurtbox issues?
Just curious.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

^ so basically the old ftilt that sakurai unnecessarily ruined? Yeah I'd like that back please.

 

[MOM Samus]

mega text really brings out your frustration

I typed that using a Mac keyboard, and the text would get small for no reason. I still think it's a bad MU. You guys need to play those really good ones. Well, this is also coming from the guy who think that Mario MU is about even. I was just a litttle ticked off because Rosa's Up Smash beat my Back Air. Literally cost me the game.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Eh. I have played good ones (not dabuz, mind you, but that's just not fair at this point). Rosa relies a lot on luma in this MU and luma is just so easy for us to get rid of. In my correspondence with rosa mains I've learned how cautious we make them with luma. Zair pokes at it, missiles, dtilt, nair, dash attack, almost everything we do knocks it out. Once luma is gone rosa gets put on the defensive. Upsmash and bair oos killing is also huge. Rosa has a fast roll but doesn't have a notable fast run speed. The biggest deal is luma. Once you get rid of it, combos start working, upb oos starts working, grabs start working, kill power gets crippled, her edge guarding gets crippled, etc. Rosa with luma is probably in her favor, but rosa without luma is definitely not.

 

[Xygonn]

I was using nair a lot more before the patch as an anti air and as a ledge guard tool. But now I throw it a lot more in the neutral now as well. It basically covers all the space Zair whiffs so it'll punish grounded approaches trying to bypass a zair wall. Of course this leads to tech chases and overall better positioning. It's an ok tool now and relative to our other moves it's really valuable now and feels integral to our kit. It's essy to fall back when you hit a shield with it so it's not so punishable.

Less landing lag on fair is nice and basically you're not gonna get punished as hard if you screw up with it. But not nair and fair have to much ending lag and landing lag in my opinion. Nair could also be out faster as well, so it could be a better combo breaker.

Thought about making a thread about it but I'll just ask here. Do you think Samus was better off in 1.03 with an amazing ftilt and missile and charge shot ledge cancellings, or now with a working up smash and a working nair and the little bells and whistles on fair and up b?

1.03 was a lot better for me because ftilt being a safer gtfo move and it being an incredible kill confirm (which is what Samus needs the most, reliable kill options) I'm glad 1.1.1 at least didn't abandon us like the last patch but I'm still bitter about how they butchered her best move.

Which universe are you from?

I do think we are better off now, Nair is love, nair is life
What really bugs me tho is 16f -> 9f Shieldstun on CS, that **** ****ing stupid now.

1.0.3 samus with 1.1.1 shield stun would be the best. Ftilt -> CS tech chases were straight balla and SM combo'd into CS better.

 

[MOM Samus]

I don't really see a ton of ways of getting rid of Luma. Screw Attack OoS is honestly a great way to separate them, but if Rosa SDI's the Screw Attack, it's not going to be pretty. Dash Attacking Luma comes to mind, but that effort goes in vane when you get shield grabbed. Grabs start working? That's really one of the last things you want to start doing in the MU, especially since Samus doesn't get anything out of grabs. And never Back Throw when playing Rosa.

I play and have really good Rosalina friends. I'll win most just cuz I know this MU like my hand, but I notice there's some stuff they never even bother doing against me. If they did, I'm afraid I wouldn't be winning. He doesn't even bother to challenge my recovery, tether or not. D-air will trump all Samus options. You can die really early to that, and getting back on stage is probably the hardest thing I find doing. Don't wanna be in the air against her powerful aerials, Jab will cover regular getup. Down Smash covers all options like crazy. I find myself ledge dropping, 'Hax Dashing' and ledge drop air dodge more often, but if you get Down Smashed out of a ledge drop, game over.

Side note: I'd personally love it if N-air had a knock back angle like Jiggly Puff's Down Smash: perfectly horizontal. It would practically be putting characters at a downward hard left/right angle to recover from. Regular Missiles should do the same. Killed a Lucas out of PKT2 with a regular Missile because of the good angle the attack put him in.

What Samus really needs now is some damage buffs. She's very powerful, but she's very weak. Simple 1-2% stuff, and that would make her shield game great.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Dtilt, super missile, charge shot, zair, etc. Are all pretty easy and strong/safe ways of killing luma. Dash attack and screw attack are obviously not the best. I was just giving out options. Rosa isn't that hard to edgeguard either.

Saying you should never be grabbing isn't very fair, even by saying you don't get anything guaranteed from it. It beats shields, puts your opponent in a disadvantaged state, whether or not it's worth the risk is up to you, but I think of you can get a solid read you might as well just grab. Just not while luma is around.

 

[MOM Samus]

Dtilt, super missile, charge shot, zair, etc. Are all pretty easy and strong/safe ways of killing luma. Dash attack and screw attack are obviously not the best. I was just giving out options. Rosa isn't that hard to edgeguard either.

Saying you should never be grabbing isn't very fair, even by saying you don't get anything guaranteed from it. It beats shields, puts your opponent in a disadvantaged state, whether or not it's worth the risk is up to you, but I think of you can get a solid read you might as well just grab. Just not while luma is around.

I don't go for the risk usually. My friend rolls like crazy from Lunar Landings. Grabs are usually beaten or I get Up Smashed. Maybe that's a thing to try: Charge Shot Luma if I have to. Luma dies, and then space out SoRo. They won't approach when she's singular. Good time for another Charge Shot. I keep trying to fight Rosa by getting her with a CS, but maybe I've been going at it the wrong way the whole time. I mean, I think Mario is a very doable MU whereas most agree it's very Mario in the MU.

 

[MOM Samus]

I'm a pretty good player, so I'm honestly cringing to know what I don't know. My MU knowledge is near opposite of yours.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

That's what I'm thinking too. I'm right there with you when you say that the MU is painful when luma is still around. I just always approach the MU as more Samus vs Luma first instead of Samus vs Rosa. It makes life easier and it gives me a realistic goal. Most Rosa mains take advantage of being the target and use rosa as a meatshield. When you go after luma, which is almost always vulnerable, it throws their game off knowing that they aren't the target. It makes them wonder if your next move will be "is he going after me or Luma?".

 

[DungeonMaster]

MOM Samus you should post some matches vs a good mario next time you come across one. Maybe we can learn something from your specific playstyle that we're not cluing into ( I say this seriously, no disrespect).
I don't think it's an impossible matchup, but I do think it's in Mario's favor. It's very difficult to deal with large lingering (invisible) hitboxes and Mario has tons of them. We should continue this in the matchup thread because otherwise it will get lost as this thread will certainly die with the next patch.