Patch 1.1.1

Furret24 · Sep 27, 2015

Since the next update is coming soon, I thought we should have a thread where we talk about what changes we hope Meta Knight gets. We can also keep track of any confirmed changes by noting them here.

Buff

Nerfs

Ulevo · Sep 27, 2015

The only changes Meta Knight needs are the fix to his RCO bug on Shuttle Loop. The best buffs we could realistically expect for this patch is nerfs to Sheik and a new stage to play on that gives us more selection.

There are game mechanic changes I would like to see that would help the character, but at this point I doubt we will see those.

Jamurai · Sep 27, 2015

Bear in mind this may not even be a balance patch. It could well be just the new stage and a couple of bugfixes. Also I agree with Ulevo in that I doubt we will get changes, MK is in a good spot right now in terms of balance. In any case:

Realistic direct buffs I would like

Fair endlag or landing lag reduction
Lag install fixes

Realistic indirect buffs I would like

Sheik nerf
ZSS nerf?
Slight Luigi nerf
Slight Luma nerf

Apart from that I would just like buffs & fixes to bad characters. We certainly don't need nerfing, we're not OP.

Unrealistic buffs I want

Frame 3 Nair ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Increased Ftilt and Dtilt range ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Projectile jab ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Sakurai pls ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

W.A.C. · Sep 28, 2015

Buff MK in a way where dittos are fun. lol MK players loved dittos in Brawl, but hate them in Smash 4.

Schilt · Sep 29, 2015

Voice buffs. His victory taunts are too quiet.

Sol0ke · Sep 29, 2015

Schilt said:
Voice buffs. His victory taunts are too quiet.

Better yet give him his Japanese voice. That voice is too cool.

Realistically, I would want indirect nerfs more than anything, really (Nerf certain characters please).

Gemba Board · Sep 29, 2015

Yeah I'm pretty sure we want what every other character wants: a sheik nerf. And not more knockback and damage nerfs, but frame data nerfs. Like landing lag and startup/endlag nerfs. The way it is now, a novice could combo for days with little effort.

W.A.C. · Sep 29, 2015

The only move of Shiek's that might deserve a frame data nerf is the speed of her needle charge since that move obliterates the neutral game of at least half the roster. If they nerf her needles, get rid of the windbox to vanish, and the hitbox for when she reappears from vanish, she would be fine IMO. For everything she has in this game, it's strange they decided to give her a godlike recovery that is so hard to punish. Ideally I would much rather have everyone buffed to Shiek's level than to just nerf Shiek, but that's not going to happen.

warionumbah2 · Sep 30, 2015

Other than a universal get up attack nerf and a ****ty up b custom buff. Nothing changed, Sheik wasn't nerfed either. ****s sake man.

Luigi got ****ed, not an MU we struggle with but GG.

Jamurai · Sep 30, 2015

On the bright side, people complaining about Uair combos were either not noticed or ignored. It appears we're in a good spot. All the custom changes are likely Sakurai trying to get us to consider giving customs another chance.

ZTD | TECHnology · Sep 30, 2015

At least timing out Luigi got easier. Considering its something I have to do kinda regularly, I'm okay with this.

akidnamedrios · Sep 30, 2015

Anyone find anything for MK yet?

ZTD | TECHnology · Sep 30, 2015

Aside from a buff to a completely useless custom that we would have never used anyway, Meta Knight appears to be unchanged as most of us predicted.

Something to note: Shield stun has been increased universally. This is going to benefit some characters more than others. This could be quite useful to us.

Ulevo · Sep 30, 2015

ZTD | TECHnology said:
Aside from a buff to a completely useless custom that we would have never used anyway, Meta Knight appears to be unchanged as most of us predicted.

Something to note: Shield stun has been increased universally. This is going to benefit some characters more than others. This could be quite useful to us.

Mm, I do not see how it will be incredibly useful. Our main confirms on shield, being down air and dash attack, are already difficult to punish on block when spaced or crossed up correctly. Mach Tornado and jab still cannot lock opponents in shield.

What I will mention however is if Yoshi could not already do it before, his down air now cannot be rolled or acted out of if he hits the shield. This makes one of our less than desirable match ups more difficult.

warionumbah2 · Sep 30, 2015

http://i.imgur.com/pGkdH1O.gif

The nerf to shields is glorious, Amadues and Jamurai can post the math behind mks kit and how it interacts with shield.

Amadeus9 · Sep 30, 2015

It's mind-boggling just how much safety we received this patch. MK's biggest issue in neutral has always been that the only answer he had to shields was dash grab... we don't have that issue anymore. Here's a table of notable moves that were affected by this. Calculations done based on @Shaya's shield stun formula of [floor](damage/1.8)+3

Everything else just got safer in general. Our neutral game is so much better now. Now we have 5 great moves (including Dash Grab) to use in neutral instead of just 2. Looking forward to abusing this stuff.

Edit: Added fsmash.

akidnamedrios · Sep 30, 2015

Amadeus9 said:
It's mind-boggling just how much safety we received this patch. MK's biggest issue in neutral has always been that the only answer he had to shields was dash grab... we don't have that issue anymore. Here's a table of notable moves that were affected by this. Calculations done based on @Shaya's shield stun formula of [floor](damage/1.8)+3

Move|Shield Stun|Landing Lag (Relative to Hitbox Frame)/FAF|FAF relative to shieldstun|FAF relative to time it takes to drop shield|Possible Applications
Nair | 8 Frames | 16 Frames | Minus 8 Frames | Plus 2 Frames | Cross up Nair to Grab is unpunishable without a breversed upb OOS or very wide hitbox upsmash OOS.
Fair | 4 Frames | 20 Frames | Minus 16 Frames | Minus 6 Frames | Simple, direct buff. Max spaced the pushback makes fair safe on block versus most characters.
Dtilt | 5 Frames | 19 Frames | Minus 11 Frames | Minus 1 Frame | This move is already fantastic. Using it on shield now means that unless your opponent has a fast OOS option, they need a 4 frame or better move after shield drop to not get dtilt-ed again, and get tripped.
Dash Attack 1/2/3 | 6/6/5 Frames | 32/31-29/28 Frames | Minus 19/18-16/16 | Minus 9/8-6/6 | Another straight-up improvement. Dash Attack through shield is basically unpunishable.

Everything else just got safer in general. Our neutral game is so much better now. Now we have 5 great moves (including Dash Grab) to use in neutral instead of just 2. Looking forward to abusing this stuff.

Do the four frames or better moves apply to everything or just moves that result in tripping?

Amadeus9 · Sep 30, 2015

akidnamedrios said:
Do the four frames or better moves apply to everything or just moves that result in tripping?

Dtilt comes out in 3 frames so you can get a second dtilt 4 frames after shield drop animation completes. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Mettie7 · Sep 30, 2015

Amadeus with a good post!? What did you do with the real Amadeus!?

Real talk though, great post! Now our neutral is more than dash attack and dash grab!

Amadeus9 · Sep 30, 2015

double post oops

Superbat · Sep 30, 2015

wtf I was not expecting this
this shield stun change gets an A+ from me #BuffCity (I'm just saying this based on Amadeus's post, don't have the game rn.)

akidnamedrios · Sep 30, 2015

I've seen what that shield mechanic change can do. It's easy to break shields especially if you're by the ledge with Lucario using aura sphere, you can't get out of it.

Amadeus9 · Sep 30, 2015

In love with this patch.

Jeronado · Sep 30, 2015

Amadeus9 said:
It's mind-boggling just how much safety we received this patch. MK's biggest issue in neutral has always been that the only answer he had to shields was dash grab... we don't have that issue anymore. Here's a table of notable moves that were affected by this. Calculations done based on @Shaya's shield stun formula of [floor](damage/1.8)+3

Move|Shield Stun|Landing Lag/FAF(Relative to Hitbox Frame)|FAF relative to shieldstun|FAF relative to time it takes to drop shield|Possible Applications
Nair | 8 Frames | 16 Frames | Minus 8 Frames | Plus 2 Frames | Cross up Nair to Grab is unpunishable without a breversed upb OOS or very wide hitbox upsmash OOS.
Fair | 4 Frames | 20 Frames | Minus 16 Frames | Minus 6 Frames | Simple, direct buff. Max spaced the pushback makes fair safe on block versus most characters.
Dtilt | 5 Frames | 19 Frames | Minus 11 Frames | Minus 1 Frame | This move is already fantastic. Using it on shield now means that unless your opponent has a fast OOS option, they need a 4 frame or better move after shield drop to not get dtilt-ed again, and get tripped.
Dash Attack 1/2/3 | 6/6/5 Frames | 32/31-29/28 Frames | Minus 19/18-16/16 | Minus 9/8-6/6 | Another straight-up improvement. Dash Attack through shield is basically unpunishable.
F-Smash | 11 Frames | 18 Frames | Minus 7 Frames | PLUS THREE FRAMES | Holy ****. Buffered dtilt comes out at the same time as shield drop animation finishing.

Everything else just got safer in general. Our neutral game is so much better now. Now we have 5 great moves (including Dash Grab) to use in neutral instead of just 2. Looking forward to abusing this stuff.

Edit: Added fsmash.

That's really cool! So, it looks like we kinda indirectly get our SH fair buff

AmishTechnology · Sep 30, 2015

Unexpected patch... Meta Knight f-air finally usable in neutral...

Ugh, and Artanis and Medic are coming out in Heroes of the Storm. Why can't this excitement wait until school semester's over!?

TurboLink · Sep 30, 2015

Man Meta Knight's nair really needs more range and active frames. D:

Kaffei · Oct 1, 2015

Amadeus9 said:
It's mind-boggling just how much safety we received this patch. MK's biggest issue in neutral has always been that the only answer he had to shields was dash grab... we don't have that issue anymore. Here's a table of notable moves that were affected by this. Calculations done based on @Shaya's shield stun formula of [floor](damage/1.8)+3

Move|Shield Stun|Landing Lag/FAF(Relative to Hitbox Frame)|FAF relative to shieldstun|FAF relative to time it takes to drop shield|Possible Applications
Nair | 8 Frames | 16 Frames | Minus 8 Frames | Plus 2 Frames | Cross up Nair to Grab is unpunishable without a breversed upb OOS or very wide hitbox upsmash OOS.
Fair | 4 Frames | 20 Frames | Minus 16 Frames | Minus 6 Frames | Simple, direct buff. Max spaced the pushback makes fair safe on block versus most characters.
Dtilt | 5 Frames | 19 Frames | Minus 11 Frames | Minus 1 Frame | This move is already fantastic. Using it on shield now means that unless your opponent has a fast OOS option, they need a 4 frame or better move after shield drop to not get dtilt-ed again, and get tripped.
Dash Attack 1/2/3 | 6/6/5 Frames | 32/31-29/28 Frames | Minus 19/18-16/16 | Minus 9/8-6/6 | Another straight-up improvement. Dash Attack through shield is basically unpunishable.
F-Smash | 11 Frames | 18 Frames | Minus 7 Frames | PLUS THREE FRAMES | Holy ****. Buffered dtilt comes out at the same time as shield drop animation finishing.

Everything else just got safer in general. Our neutral game is so much better now. Now we have 5 great moves (including Dash Grab) to use in neutral instead of just 2. Looking forward to abusing this stuff.

Edit: Added fsmash.

I really hope you are right about fair being safer on shield.... That's all I ever wanted ;_;

Gemba Board · Oct 1, 2015

Fsmash on block is absurd... I've been following it up with just about anything for free pressure; especially with the opponents back against the ledge. I can imagine some pretty silly frame traps coming from this and dtilt.

Kaffei · Oct 1, 2015

Gemba Board said:
Fsmash on block is absurd... I've been following it up with just about anything for free pressure; especially with the opponents back against the ledge. I can imagine some pretty silly frame traps coming from this and dtilt.

I love it

Steelballray · Oct 1, 2015

Was hoping for Nado to be even better at crushing shields but what we got is even better than what I thought. I am excited to test the changes. ;-;

Ulevo · Oct 1, 2015

Not to dismiss the benefits we have received, but this is also a detriment to our gameplay. Because of Meta Knight's limited neutral game, we have to rely on dashing into shield a lot, and relying on the shield for these purposes is not as safe to do as it was previously. We have the mobility to stay mobile in neutral, but we do not have the luxury to throw out hit boxes without making our neutral binary and predictable.

Amadeus9 · Oct 1, 2015

Ulevo said:
Not to dismiss the benefits we have received, but this is also a detriment to our gameplay. Because of Meta Knight's limited neutral game, we have to rely on dashing into shield a lot, and relying on the shield for these purposes is not as safe to do as it was previously. We have the mobility to stay mobile in neutral, but we do not have the luxury to throw out hit boxes without making our neutral binary and predictable.

This is why playing the neutral surgically is so important. If you play metaknight, you have to adopt salenas playstyle. He barely uses shield, just lots of movement tech to keep pressure.

Kaffei · Oct 1, 2015

Steelballray said:
Was hoping for Nado to be even better at crushing shields but what we got is even better than what I thought. I am excited to test the changes. ;-;

Nado on shield pretty much feels the exact same

akidnamedrios · Oct 1, 2015

Kaffei said:
Nado on shield pretty much feels the exact same

But with the new shield changes, it's basically safe on shield. And if the shields low, it could break it.

Kaffei · Oct 1, 2015

akidnamedrios said:
But with the new shield changes, it's basically safe on shield. And if the shields low, it could break it.

I disagree because once it gets shielded, all the shielder has to do is tilt their shield up to prevent any shield pokes and then punish MK in his massive landing lag

Amadeus9 · Oct 1, 2015

Word of warning: new findings mean my numbers are completely wrong. Will fix soon.

Kaffei · Oct 1, 2015

Amadeus9 said:
Word of warning: new findings mean my numbers are completely wrong. Will fix soon.

new findings?

Amadeus9 · Oct 1, 2015

Kaffei said:
new findings?

Safety is variable based on when you hit shield, because shields no longer pause the minimum active frames while in hitstun. Basically everything was over estimated by about 6 frames.

Kaffei · Oct 1, 2015

Amadeus9 said:
Safety is variable based on when you hit shield, because shields no longer pause the minimum active frames while in hitstun. Basically everything was over estimated by about 6 frames.

i cry

xxmoosexx · Oct 2, 2015

Alright guys, first time back into smash since 4 years ago.

Can someone explain to me the the "minus # frames" on shield lag?

Glad to see Shaya is still her

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