Q&A Palutena Q&A Thread

[Maraphy]

her F-air / B-air combos to dash attack at low percents. F-throw -> autoreticle will connect if they jump

not really much else when it comes to ground combos..

Edit: Oh, I forgot Jab -> F-Smash / U-Smash. That's a ground combo, and a killing one at that

 

[sleepy_Nex]

jab->Dash attack
It's not bad because it still hits in dash attack kill percents.

 

[Krysco]

Greetings Palutenas! I'm doing a video series where I analysis each stage and I shall soon be covering Dream Land 64. On this stage, I noticed a glitch with certain directional recoveries including Lady Palutena's. When used horizontally on the base of the stage you end the move in your aerial state and suffer aerial endlag and then landing lag right after. Palutena also does a short slide during her landing lag. Is this beneficial or detrimental at all? It doesn't prevent Palutena or Mewtwo from ledge cancelling but does prevent Zelda from using this tech. From what I can tell, Warp has less endlag than Mewtwo's Teleport so perhaps it could be used to slip past an enemy or projectile without being punished?

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I've never noticed this before, and I generally think of Kirby 64 as Palu's best stage.

Honestly the slide probably makes warp canceling even easier, and from what I can tell it seems like the landing lag is less than the normal endlag on the ground so that probably makes it even better.

That said, it's extremely rare for me to warp horizontal from flat ground on any stage.

 

[Lunacywastaken]

Hello~
I'm quite new to Palutena so I'm not familiar with her stage selects. So what are her best and worst stages?

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

Any stage that lets her get the uair and lets her warp-cancel. I feel Battlefield is pretty good for her. And warp canceling into a nair or dair is a beautiful edgeguard tactic.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Batllefield's ceiling is so high and she kills vertically most of the time so I'd personally mich rather go to Dreamland 64 since you have the same kind of opportunity for warp shenannigans.

Battlefield is often my frst strike, though Lylat isn't very good fpr her either. Final D depends pretty heavily on the matchup.

 

[Kitzu]

Could someone tell me the different uses of f-tilt and d-tilt? They seem the exact same except d-tilt has a way smaller hitbox.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Ftilt is awful, never use it. It's slow as anything and you generally only get 6% out of it.

 

[wpwood]

How good is fair? Sometimes I space with it so much I get it down from 8% to 6%. It's the main move I use in footsies and then I'll mix up and come in with a SH bair to beat out their aerial. The move is so good, but is it possible to use it too much?

Speaking of footsies has anyone else noticed how good dash > SH back (fair maybe or reverse bair)> Fast fall > dash > repeat is? I also feel that movement is a good way to cover ledge get ups. Dashing forward covers standard get up, jump let's you avoid get up attack and can cover ledge jump, and the fade back let's you cover a roll on stage. I don't know if it is true but it feels like I can dash instantly after landing sometimes. Can someone confirm that for me?

Do we not have a general tech thread where we can just talk about any tech that comes up and how we can apply it to her play? I want to make sure before I make one.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Fair is hella good as far as Palu does. It's fast, ranged, and safe when spaced, and in my play it functions as her primary poke.

If it's getting stale, that's not too awful as it means you're landing a bunch of hits, but you can also space in neutral with Bair. It's still pretty safe, but less so as a trade off for higher damage and the armor. It'd be one thing if you were killing with Fair, but that's pretty uncommon, so I wouldn't worry too much about it staling.

Dashing and short hopping is a major tool in neutral because most characters have to respect a shorthopping Palu, especially with her back to them. It encourages shielding, which sets up for tommahawk grabs. In fact, I'd almost say that this is required for Palu to function as she has very poor grounded options outside of jab, grab, and niche use for dash attack and utilt. There is a landing lag even out of an empty jump but it's only a handful of frames.

We've generally been using the general thread as a tech/strategy thread but I'm not opposed to a separate one, personally.

 

[wpwood]

I'm gonna be too busy tonight and tomorrow, but I'll try making a thread dedicated to tech discussion Thursday or Friday, unless someone else wants to make it and I'll be happy to support the thread either way.

Would increasing the strength of back throw and up throw be enough to "fix" all of Palutena's problems? I would absolutely love it of course, but just how good would it be? I think it could be enough to make up for her problems.

 

[lRasha]

I've been thinking about this for awhile though. If someone's off-stage and his hurtbox appears above the stage when using his recovering, I know that you can use Reflect and they'll possibly die instead of snap to the ledge.

My question is this: Can someone possibly catch an opponent's 2 vulnerability frames when using Reflect when they're snapping onto the ledge? This would be a different case where the opponent's hurtbox isn't above the stage. If Reflect can come in contact with those frames, I suppose it might be hard?

This video is an example of Palutena using Reflect on someone who partially appeared above the stage (this relates to the first paragraph).

 

[wpwood]

I've been thinking about this for awhile though. If someone's off-stage and his hurtbox appears above the stage when using his recovering, I know that you can use Reflect and they'll possibly die instead of snap to the ledge.

My question is this: Can someone possibly catch an opponent's 2 vulnerability frames when using Reflect when they're snapping onto the ledge? This would be a different case where the opponent's hurtbox isn't above the stage. If Reflect can come in contact with those frames, I suppose it might be hard?

This video is an example of Palutena using Reflect on someone who partially appeared above the stage (this relates to the first paragraph).

Little Mac is a special case in that his up b doesn't ledge snap. That's how it was made, so a good Little Mac player would know the max range of up b to try to avoid having that happen to them. Although that could probably be countered thanks to reflect going through the stage and Lylat tilting. Yet another plus as to why Lylat is actually a good Palutena stage. Maybe reflect could still work on a Mac going max range on their up b, but I haven't fought a Mac that does that to test with. There is a pretty good Mac in my area, but I haven't tried that with him. Reflect could work on Side B as well, Ganon/Falcon and Little Mac and possible some others.

Now trying to catch someone on a 2 frame snap is something I never thought about. I would prefer to go for dair, nair, or even a rising uair when at high %. The only stage this could be tested on I think would be Lylat. So who wants to lab with me on Lylat latter after I get home, maybe 5 CST? I don't think it would work on other stages because reflect doesn't go that low meaning you would have to go off stage and only reflect the opponent in, which in that case why not use dair? Very interesting idea, I like it. If that is a thing it would definitely make Lylat Palutena's best stage. The reason I see it not working is because they are snapping and I don't think a wind box would be able to push someone out of a ledge snap, but maybe timing the hit box of reflect to get the snap could do something. Otherwise Gust Bellows would be even more broken than it was on the 3ds. However if they were to just jump the wind boxes could still push them and force a up b, and if reflect could have less end lag or you force an up b with the very end of the move you can maybe punish the 2 frame ledge snap. Of course all of this still needs to be tested before anything can be confirmed.

On the thought of Lylat's tilts and up smash, up smash appears in front of Palutena so that means that lylat tilting up can have up smash literally cover the ledge. Up smash has a small disjoint to it so it would be a bit easier to cover the ledge snap with it. Lylat is looking better and better the more I think about it. I may being thinking about it wrong; I honestly don't play on Lylat that often. Anything else that could be special to Lylat besides easiest legless get up and different angles to ledge cancel warp on?

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I'm not sure, but I think that during the 2 frame vulnerability they are counted as snapped to the ledge so the windbox won't do anything, if I understand the question.

 

[wpwood]

How do you guys have your controllers mapped? The only difference from default I have are L as jump, c-stick as attack, and x as grab?

I have a problem of sometimes doing fair when I want to follow up uair so having L as jump lets me use the c-stick for aerials meaning I won't miss my kill confirms. It also helps with some Peach tech so win win. I still use Y for jump in some situations since I'm not yet fully used to having L as jump. I made L jump just a few days ago and some things already seem easier.

C stick is for PP tilts. Her titls are rangy and up tilt can kill along with down tilt by the ledge. I think using her tilts out of PP is better than doing smash attacks since tilts have longer lasting hit boxes. I switch back to smash for Peach though.

X is for mashing. That's about it really. No other advantage since I have Z as grab or shield + A.

Question about down tilt: does the effect of crouch cancel apply to it? I'll lab it tomorrow if no one knows.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I have R set to attack as a leftover from Brawl DACUS (but when I press it I expect attack to come out, so I keep it) and Y set to special so I can easily jump -> AR because I often like the varied angle better than standing AR (and because of left over Brawl Pit tech), plus I can move just a hair before doing it. I use A+B smash for pivot smashes. I'm pretty sure tap jump off would be objectively better so I can Warp without jumping first (for more precise warp cancel spacing) but I've always played with it on so I'm scrubbing it up on that one and leaving it on.

 

[Smasher89]

Has anyone done research on the throwcombos?, like dthrow upair, is it ever guarantied or does it always take a read?, or is it matchup specific?

 

[lRasha]

Little Mac is a special case in that his up b doesn't ledge snap. That's how it was made, so a good Little Mac player would know the max range of up b to try to avoid having that happen to them. Although that could probably be countered thanks to reflect going through the stage and Lylat tilting. Yet another plus as to why Lylat is actually a good Palutena stage. Maybe reflect could still work on a Mac going max range on their up b, but I haven't fought a Mac that does that to test with. There is a pretty good Mac in my area, but I haven't tried that with him. Reflect could work on Side B as well, Ganon/Falcon and Little Mac and possible some others.

Now trying to catch someone on a 2 frame snap is something I never thought about. I would prefer to go for dair, nair, or even a rising uair when at high %. The only stage this could be tested on I think would be Lylat. So who wants to lab with me on Lylat latter after I get home, maybe 5 CST? I don't think it would work on other stages because reflect doesn't go that low meaning you would have to go off stage and only reflect the opponent in, which in that case why not use dair? Very interesting idea, I like it. If that is a thing it would definitely make Lylat Palutena's best stage. The reason I see it not working is because they are snapping and I don't think a wind box would be able to push someone out of a ledge snap, but maybe timing the hit box of reflect to get the snap could do something. Otherwise Gust Bellows would be even more broken than it was on the 3ds. However if they were to just jump the wind boxes could still push them and force a up b, and if reflect could have less end lag or you force an up b with the very end of the move you can maybe punish the 2 frame ledge snap. Of course all of this still needs to be tested before anything can be confirmed.

On the thought of Lylat's tilts and up smash, up smash appears in front of Palutena so that means that lylat tilting up can have up smash literally cover the ledge. Up smash has a small disjoint to it so it would be a bit easier to cover the ledge snap with it. Lylat is looking better and better the more I think about it. I may being thinking about it wrong; I honestly don't play on Lylat that often. Anything else that could be special to Lylat besides easiest legless get up and different angles to ledge cancel warp on?

Thanks for replying. I know there's the usual "This move is better to do instead" things, but I just wanted to explore Palutena's options. It makes sense that a windbox likely wouldn't affect a ledge snap.

 

[wpwood]

Has anyone done research on the throwcombos?, like dthrow upair, is it ever guarantied or does it always take a read?, or is it matchup specific?

Down Throw > Up Air can be DIed and then you'll need a follow up read. DIing in guarantees a uair follow up DI away to avoid uair. Other throws don't really have combos and just provide stage advantage. Up throw can kill at very high % if you're center stage and can't get back throw to kill or earlier if you're on the top platform of Dream Land or BF. I wish up throw would get buffed so it can kill around 130 or 150 instead of 180.

Thanks for replying. I know there's the usual "This move is better to do instead" things, but I just wanted to explore Palutena's options. It makes sense that a windbox likely wouldn't affect a ledge snap.

You're welcome. I think every little thing needs to be explored with Palutena. She clearly has a few problems and every little thing helps with that. By ignoring something we hinder our character willingly and that's just straight up bad. The this move is better so why do this one argument is defeated by saying mix up options. Mix ups are nice and very useful, plain and simple.

 

[gByron]

Hi babes! I have a couple of questions I would be glad if you give me some insight
1) I use nair only for edgeguarding. What are other reasonable applications for nair?
2)do you ever use counter?
3)do you ever use ftilt?

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Hi babes! I have a couple of questions I would be glad if you give me some insight
1) I use nair only for edgeguarding. What are other reasonable applications for nair?
2)do you ever use counter?
3)do you ever use ftilt?

1. It is great for edgeguarding, but also for beating air dodges due to it's meat, and it can combo from Dthrow if they DI in. I also sometimes use it to harass people on platforms.

2. Rarely. For the occasional Hail-Mary.

3. Not on purpose.

 

[CURRY]

How does Palu's fair work?
The range feels shorter when you do approaching rising shorthop fair, and feels shorter when you do falling fair kind of late.
That little sparkle at the end of her foot doesn't seem consistent with the hitbox either.

Do the hitboxes depend on where (relative to the stage) she starts up the move, regardless of where she herself actually ends up? And does it start close to her and finish far away, as opposed to all the hitboxes appearing and disappearing simultaneously?

And I want to confirm:
Palu's rolldodge/spotdodge frame data isn't very good, is it? There doesn't seem to be a place where all the rolldodge/spotdodge frama data are compiled into one large chart and ranked, not even on Kuroganehammer, so I'm a bit lazy to check myself.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

To my knowledge, her fair is standard range that follows the character. You're probably swinging too high/landing before the hitbox comes out if you're whiffing when close enough

Also, http://smashboards.com/threads/roll-air-dodge-frame-data.401323/

 

[PHP]

Does forward tilt have any uses or applications?

Can warp canceling be used for follow-ups on battlefield/ dream land to extend combo?

Can anyone else get FC dair > dair to work / true combo?

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Ftilt can cover spot dodge but there are better ways. There are better ways to do anything it does.

Even with canceling you have like 30 frames after executing warp before you can move again. Add that to startup of your move of choice and extending combos with it becomes extremely unlikely.

 

[Eryx]

Am I getting this right?

Forward and Downward Tilt attacks are not worth using. They are very slow and deal very low damage. I have no idea what can be used to abuse the lingering hitbox other than people air doding to the ground. Upward tilt attack is just as bad, but is powerful. Seems really good at like an anti-aerial sort of move. Same thing with the neutrl aerial attacka nd upwards aerial attacks. They both lingering a long time and Upwards seems to KO people earlier than other things. Dash attack and her smashes are equally bad for the lag. If I miss I am getting hurt. Only dash attack seems useful for being fast and hitting hard.

The specials she has seem bad. Well, reflect is a fun move and looks like you might stall someone momentarily. Her reticle move feels awful. It always misses and does nothing even if it does hit. The upwards B recovery is good for just that. Only Jab and Grab seems safest when I am on the ground.

 

[PHP]

Am I getting this right?

Forward and Downward Tilt attacks are not worth using. They are very slow and deal very low damage. I have no idea what can be used to abuse the lingering hitbox other than people air doding to the ground. Upward tilt attack is just as bad, but is powerful. Seems really good at like an anti-aerial sort of move. Same thing with the neutrl aerial attacka nd upwards aerial attacks. They both lingering a long time and Upwards seems to KO people earlier than other things. Dash attack and her smashes are equally bad for the lag. If I miss I am getting hurt. Only dash attack seems useful for being fast and hitting hard.

The specials she has seem bad. Well, reflect is a fun move and looks like you might stall someone momentarily. Her reticle move feels awful. It always misses and does nothing even if it does hit. The upwards B recovery is good for just that. Only Jab and Grab seems safest when I am on the ground.

Well you can trump people with reflect at the ledge, counter has good damage output, warp can give you great mobility on platform stages, and autoreticle does trump some recoveries off stage.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Am I getting this right?

Forward and Downward Tilt attacks are not worth using. They are very slow and deal very low damage. I have no idea what can be used to abuse the lingering hitbox other than people air doding to the ground. Upward tilt attack is just as bad, but is powerful. Seems really good at like an anti-aerial sort of move. Same thing with the neutrl aerial attacka nd upwards aerial attacks. They both lingering a long time and Upwards seems to KO people earlier than other things. Dash attack and her smashes are equally bad for the lag. If I miss I am getting hurt. Only dash attack seems useful for being fast and hitting hard.

The specials she has seem bad. Well, reflect is a fun move and looks like you might stall someone momentarily. Her reticle move feels awful. It always misses and does nothing even if it does hit. The upwards B recovery is good for just that. Only Jab and Grab seems safest when I am on the ground.

Forward tilt is absolute complete garbage and a contender for worst move in the game.

Dtilt has occasional uses because of it's disjoint and meat couple with being much safer than Ftilt, but is still relegated to the bargain bin at best.

Utilt is great at it's niche jobs; it beats out aerial approaches solidly because of how her hurtbox shrinks, wrecks stall-and-falls, and can kill around ~130% (where it can be set up out of jab 1)

Dash attack is amazing for a dash attack. It's fast, and the armor property means there are certain landing situations where you can get free-ish damage with it, in addition to just straight up beating out aerials, charged smashes, etc. It's just very punishable, so you don't want to swing with it unless you're sure it'll hit. It can also kill around the same range as utilt, and can be comboed into from jab and fair at certain percents.

Her smashes are mostly garbage, but Usmash stands out for it's range, and the fact that you can use it while running. I get lots of kills out of punishing air dodges with Usmash. Fsmash has use out of a pivot smash (because of it's range) or when reading a roll.

Warp is an unflashy but great recovery move. Warp cancels can be nice for landing. Reflect is one of the best reflectors in the game and makes some matchups much more doable than they would be otherwise. It's physical hit is also unblockable, which isn't amazing, but if they're shielding on a platform might as well take that 5%. Counter is complete garbage. AR is an unusual move that is essential in some matchups and useless in others. Don't treat it like a projectile, treat it like a very long range but very slow poke that forces certain people to come to you. If you play on Smashville, the character start almost exactly max AR distance away from each other, so mashing the B button is a great opening move against some characters who don't have fantastic mobility.

 

[Eryx]

So, it seems I was about right, but did not realize about super armor on Dash Attack.

What uses are there with Reticle against which recoveries? Even if you get it off, it misses much of the time against any moving opponent.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Dash attack's armor isn't super armor, but more like partial invincibility. Bair has the same thing.

AR can work against recoveries, most notably killing double jumps. The time to hit it is going to depend on the opponent's habits.

The goal with AR isn't so much to deal damage as it is to harass. If it lands, sure, take the 9%, but it's mostly useful as a way to force approaches and generally let people know that they can't be complacent even far away

 

[kamus_aran]

I'm sure i've seen iceninja and princeramen cancel the nair after they let go of grabbing the ledge and jump to use it to get back on stage. Does anyone know how to cancel it? Everytime i try it has the endlag

 

[kamus_aran]

Like this at 0:48

http://youtu.be/WJ-Ka-DYjNE

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Like this at 0:48

http://youtu.be/WJ-Ka-DYjNE

There's nothing particularly special going on there, the move is just auto cancelling because he's doing it early enough and high enough in the jump.

If you're pressing down to let go of the ledge, try pressing away instead so you don't fastfall. Other than that, just try to be quicker with your inputs.

 

[CURRY]

What's the thing that Palu says during fsmash and fsmash?
"God bless"? "Godess"? "Process"?

 

[wpwood]

Pretty sure she says nothing and it's just the wind sound, but I'll listen when I get home and confirm it.

 

[PHP]

Pretty sure she says nothing and it's just the wind sound, but I'll listen when I get home and confirm it.

She says something in the Japanese version only

 

[Maraphy]

What's the thing that Palu says during fsmash and fsmash?
"God bless"? "Godess"? "Process"?

She definitely does say something occasionally. My best guess is "Goddess wings"?

 

[alexthepony]

How do I di her da to live longer, if so how much longer will I live. it usualy kills at 140 and I want to see if I can live it longer

 

[MysteriousSilver]

You want to DI away from her to survive it longer since it's mostly vertical.

Your survivability will depend on the character/stage, of course, but at around 140-150 it becomes a pretty reliable kill.