Official Pac-Man's Amazing Full Colour Fan Club! - Pac-Man General Thread

[Nu~]

That's cool.

But its still a good read and very useful because the majority of what was said is spot on believe it or not. Sans BF being useless.

Except he exaggerates the ability for the opponent to mess with your traps. In theory a ganon can always smack your hydrant away, but in practice, he's to busy being pressured by fruit and aerials to get to the hydrant. And then gets punished if he tries to knock it over.

 

[Zage]

Its generally agreed upon that we have a advantage over Ganon, even then the example he used was a Ganon standing directly next to our Hydrant which is disadvantageous for us given he can launch it fairly easily. Disregarding that poor example, there are 53 other characters in the game who can and will punish our glaring weakness.

The Hydrant and to a lesser extent, the trampoline, create a neutral position where both players have to worry about it and work around it accordingly. Pac-Man typically has the advantage here either because we hit them with the Hydrant as it was falling and now have created breathing room for ourselves to start setting up our gameplan, or two, they were never close enough in the first place to take control of the Hydrant from us.

Even then that advantage can be quickly taken away. As a prime example here is a recent video of Kool-Aid. I welcome you to count the amount of times Pac-Man was punished, forced to air dodge, or run away after using a Hydrant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzR7oTltzo8

Using it forces us into a disadvantages situation if it doesn't hit, and how many people are going to sit under Pac and get hit by it? It might work the first few times, but people who know what doing aren't going to fall for it that often. Given that it boils down to if you're under Pac-Man and there is currently no Hydrant on stage, he is going to use it because its one of his only tools to safely return to the stage when hes above the opponent, other than Nair.



I don't agree with everything they said either, but to say that they don't know Pac-Man is wrong.


We are all here to post and share information so that we may improve, Its better to keep an open mind rather than immediately go on the defensive because they called our character bad. I implore you to take another read, its really the only information we have summed up pretty nicely that points out everything bad about Pac-Man. With that we can start finding new ways to work around those issues.

 

[Nu~]

Well first I have to say that your example isn't really optimal because koolaid isn't that great of a pacman player yet (compare his match to Abadango vs nietono or brood), and that ganon was just an example to explain how rediculous it is to think that pacman will let such a situation happen.
I do agree with what they were saying though, that our hydrant can be used against us, but they treat it as if it will happen often. A smart pacman player already knows this, and shouldn't be setting his hydrant anywhere near the opponent unless he has a plan. Yeah it can be launched at us, but we still have gained our advantage in charging our fruit. The hydrant isn't only meant to be launched (it's very annoying to constantly hear, "the hydrant's only use is to be launched") They also think that pac struggles in CQC which is simply untrue. He has slightly worse Mario frame data with better range. And sheild is taken care of with trampoline.

I'm keeping an open mind to his weaknesses, but it's hard to listen when they constantly exaggerate the extent to which pac's tools are exploitable. It's as if a FG pac is going up against tourney ready opponents. These scenarios rarely happen if the pacman player is smart.

Please watch Abadango. The Japanese meta is littered with pacman, so it's not just lack of knowledge on the matchup. Watch how few times his hydrant gets launched, and how we still maintain the advantage even if it is launched at us.

I would love to discuss and patch up his weaknesses, but only if we learn to differentiate between big weaknesses, and misconceptions of the character.

 

[Paper Maribro]

I still havent seen anyone come up with any concrete cure to his lack of killpower barring reads or major mistakes by an opponent. It gets to a point where I have had a Charizard at 200% + and not been able to kill him because he can sit fairly comfortably in shield and just punish you with any attempt to approach or grab and due to rage and Zards strength, we dont last terribly long against him.

 

[Nu~]

I still havent seen anyone come up with any concrete cure to his lack of killpower barring reads or major mistakes by an opponent. It gets to a point where I have had a Charizard at 200% + and not been able to kill him because he can sit fairly comfortably in shield and just punish you with any attempt to approach or grab and due to rage and Zards strength, we dont last terribly long against him.

That is a pain, but it really isn't as hard as you make it out to be. We may have to use our bell more for 90% kills, but our smash attacks aren't slow enough to require a hard read.

 

[Locke 06]

Oh hey.

To say I think of Pacman 1 dimensionally is very wrong. I wrote my posts simply to address the idea that Pacman can time people out and camp, which I firmly believe he cannot. That's why my posts are only about him camping.

Posts like this (and those like it in the page, don't mean to single anyone out) are what I am addressing because I don't agree with that perception of the character. It's just not a realistic strategy with Pacman to camp and play keep away for an entire game. Whereas it is entirely a realistic strategy for a character like Villager, Mega Man, Sheik, or Yoshi to do that. Pacman may be versatile, but he can't do that.

But I think I've spent enough time restating the same thing again and again.

 

[Nu~]

Oh hey.

To say I think of Pacman 1 dimensionally is very wrong. I wrote my posts simply to address the idea that Pacman can time people out and camp, which I firmly believe he cannot. That's why my posts are only about him camping.

Posts like this (and those like it in the page, don't mean to single anyone out) are what I am addressing because I don't agree with that perception of the character. It's just not a realistic strategy with Pacman to camp and play keep away for an entire game. Whereas it is entirely a realistic strategy for a character like Villager, Mega Man, Sheik, or Yoshi to do that. Pacman may be versatile, but he can't do that.

But I think I've spent enough time restating the same thing again and again.

Yeah, and I agreed. But then you went to go on and say how you believe he is bad because he can't handle top tiers based on the notion that his tools are too easily exploited. That's what I mean when I say that you looked from one angle. You saw flaws in the hydrant and trampoline (which were a bit overstated imo) instead of considering his versatility. Until now that is

 

[Locke 06]

Well... How do you handle the top characters? Like I said, I read most of the M&M thread and the general impression I got was to camp/lame them out.

Edit: I will say your Diddy MU looks decent because of the trampoline vs his grabs.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Well... How do you handle the top characters? Like I said, I read most of the M&M thread and the general impression I got was to camp/lame them out.

For Yoshi.

For Sheik, use Strawberries to cover short hop approaches AND needles.

For Diddy, use Trampoline to get out of grabs and Fruit to stop the bananas.

While most of this tactics indeed use fruit, it's not to camp/lame out.

 

[Nu~]

That's really the main reason why I'm trying to reorganize the matchup thread now.
I actually have planned a strategy for each and every one of them, but because of my location, I don't have the time to type it all out right now. If you want to know how we handle them, you may have to wait until later today. I'll be in the match up thread. Unfortunately a lot of our players don't see customs becoming legal, so we'll only be discussing how we handle them with customs off (such a limit of possibilities)

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Wait.

Pac-Man can't camp behind the Hydrant well.

But he can when he's on top of the Hydrant.
He can stop opponents from smashing the Hydrant with Nair or Apple.

EDIT: Or what about, y'know, actually staying around the Hydrant. Or plop it on a platform.

 

[Nu~]

Wait.

Pac-Man can't camp behind the Hydrant well.

But he can when he's on top of the Hydrant.
He can stop opponents from smashing the Hydrant with Nair or Apple.

EDIT: Or what about, y'know, actually staying around the Hydrant. Or plop it on a platform.

As long as you don't set it up right in front of their face, we may be able to use this. They can't grab us, so all of their options are covered by sheild, fruit, or nair.

 

[BSP]

Got a tournament tomorrow with some good players going. Hopefully I can get some matches to explain what I mean.

That Koolaid video does not impress me, and I even called it being used to state Pac-Man's weaknesses even though he doesn't use trampoline to limit Falcon's options a single time.

 

[Nu~]

Got a tournament tomorrow with some good players going. Hopefully I can get some matches to explain what I mean.

That Koolaid video does not impress me, and I even called it being used to state Pac-Man's weaknesses even though he doesn't use trampoline to limit Falcon's options a single time.

Show em! Lol
Yeah, I don't think pac should rely on his camp game alone, but it is definitely exaggerating to say that his camp game is "terrible"
It's an option, and one that we can definitely use when the time comes. And if that doesn't work against some characters, switch it up. Pacman is the most versatile character in smash
(and I still believe he's the most unique. Please tell me how float, pellets, or can are more unorthodox than BF, trampoline, Power Pellet trail, or hydrant.)

 

[BSP]

Fine, I'll keep that in mind too. I want to see how much we can get out of our ledge setups this time.

EDIT: sigh...I had a post going on why I emphasize his camp game more than anything and it got swamped...let me do it in bits and pieces this time.

OK, so Pac-Man's aggro game. My evaluation of it may be a bit biased since I play Mario too, but here goes.

First off, Pac-Man's mobility is average or below average. I'm not going to look up the numbers, but for rushdown purposes, he's got an average dash speed, a walk speed that isn't super relevant in rushdown, and he is floaty. He can't do a SH aerial strategy that well because:

- he can only do one Bair in a SH and nothing else before he lands, making RAR a bad idea unless he full hops
-Fair doesn't auto cancel even if you buffer it in a short hop, making what should be a quick, safe poke a commitment unless you're willing throw something else out after or double jump
-Since Bair takes up an entire SH, RAR is only effective with FH bairs, which will put him way above the opponent if he's not successful
-his floatiness slows the speed at which he can SH and get back on the ground

SH Nair is not bad, but like Pac-Man's trampoline, it requires essentially being on top of the opponent for it to land. If you try to get on top of them to use it, other fighters have flat out better buttons to beat us. Off the top of my head, Mario, Falcon, Luigi, Yoshi, Sheik, and plenty others can throw out a jab, tilt, or normal grab if Pac-Man is running at them without much fear of punishment.

So since I don't think SH approach strategies work that well, that leaves the ground. Even with BFs versatility, the only two fruits we can really follow for an approach are Galaxian and Melon, both of which take time to charge up to. When they are thrown, Melon is good, but the opponent can still hit, dodge, or catch it, while Galaxian is easily out-prioritized by many moves. Strawberry and cherry can be followed after they bounce I guess, but we have to hope a smart person doesn't pick them up and hold them hostage. It is nice that we can cancel the standing BF charge for mixups and fakeouts (one of my main methods of getting grabs is going into BF charge, standing cancel -> dash grab), but I still don't think it's enough.

We can try to plant hydrant and use it to aid our approach, but, like most of Pac-Man's stuff, that takes time, and once it is launched, it's on cooldown for a bit. Of course, let's not forget it can be used against us (which will be easier to do since to use it offensively quickly, you're most likely going to immediately Bair it, and since you're on offense, you're not just standing in its blind spot), and once it's down, we lose our main landing mixup.

So if we can't really approach with fruit and hydrant consistently, what do we have? Pac-Man's mediocre air and dash speed along with mediocre DA, tilts, and slow startup smashes, with an awful grab for a foundation. Again, his tilts aren't bad alone, but since a smart opponent will know how awful Pac-Man's grab is, they're going to be shield happy, and the only way we beat that consistently is by being on top of them. Pac-Man can't realistically rely on grabbing as an option, so that also eliminates running up -> shield, grab, and pivot grabs as options because a miss = Fsmash to the face. Paper Maribro just reminded how HUGE of a problem this is when it comes to netting KOs, because rage will begin fueling the opponent when we struggle to KO. Trampoline doesn't really KO, and a missed grabbed when they're at higher % = Rage powered smash to your face, and most likely your death.

Not having a grab in the neutral equation just destroys his rushdown potential IMO. Just remember, shield > ANYTHING that is not a grab in this game. It's super powerful. Pac-Man has to take many more risks or land a lot more hard reads than anyone else in the aggro situation because he just can't grab consistently. I'd much rather take a slower game, charge to what I want, pester my opponent when they approach and approach on my terms when I play as him unless I'm fighting somebody who gives me no option but to chase them down.

That's why when I start matches against someone I don't HAVE to approach against, I either place a trampoline , begin charging fruit if I'm not facing a high mobility character, or run forward a little bit and place my hydrant. At the start of the match, these are safe, and they all buy (or bought) Pac-Man time to charge toward the relevant fruit item. The opponent also has to get around whatever you set up or else they give you more time to charge, and you can punish them for getting around your stuff.

EDIT 2: I'm know we're supposed to adapt to the situation and all, but I still think his camping game has a leg over his aggressive one.

 

[Paper Maribro]

That is a pain, but it really isn't as hard as you make it out to be. We may have to use our bell more for 90% kills, but our smash attacks aren't slow enough to require a hard read.

No, I am not kidding. I legitimately went through this earlier. I was playing a charizard and was quite easily winning until he starting shielding just about everything at 180 or so percent. Just about every attack I landed after that he survived until he was at nearly 250% and I didnt end up taking the stock at all. He ended up killing me twice more.

 

[BSP]

I still havent seen anyone come up with any concrete cure to his lack of killpower barring reads or major mistakes by an opponent. It gets to a point where I have had a Charizard at 200% + and not been able to kill him because he can sit fairly comfortably in shield and just punish you with any attempt to approach or grab and due to rage and Zards strength, we dont last terribly long against him.

Same issue, except against Captain Falcon. Rage Fsmash kills us at like 70%.

My only suggestion is to jump offstage and try to edgeguard hard, or try to nail him with orange, melon, or key when he's off of the stage. The only problem with jumping out to edgeguard though, is that Pac-Man's strength aerials don't end that quickly, and he's not really mobile in the air, so the situation can get turned onto you really easily. You might as well take the risk though, since rage is real and it hurts.

And just as I mentioned in my post above, our only way to consistently beat shield happy people is up B on top of them, which has its risks and can get stuffed. If we go for the grab and miss, we die. Since we struggle so much when we're behind, that's why I highly recommend not letting them get a solid one in the first place and camping hard.

 

[WindozeNT]

The only thing I don't like about Pac-Man is his horrible missed-grab endlag.

 

[Nu~]

Fine, I'll keep that in mind too. I want to see how much we can get out of our ledge setups this time.

EDIT: sigh...I had a post going on why I emphasize his camp game more than anything and it got swamped...let me do it in bits and pieces this time.

OK, so Pac-Man's aggro game. My evaluation of it may be a bit biased since I play Mario too, but here goes.

First off, Pac-Man's mobility is average or below average. I'm not going to look up the numbers, but for rushdown purposes, he's got an average dash speed, a walk speed that isn't super relevant in rushdown, and he is floaty. He can't do a SH aerial strategy that well because:

- he can only do one Bair in a SH and nothing else before he lands, making RAR a bad idea unless he full hops
-Fair doesn't auto cancel even if you buffer it in a short hop, making what should be a quick, safe poke a commitment unless you're willing throw something else out after or double jump
-Since Bair takes up an entire SH, RAR is only effective with FH bairs, which will put him way above the opponent if he's not successful
-his floatiness slows the speed at which he can SH and get back on the ground

SH Nair is not bad, but like Pac-Man's trampoline, it requires essentially being on top of the opponent for it to land. If you try to get on top of them to use it, other fighters have flat out better buttons to beat us. Off the top of my head, Mario, Falcon, Luigi, Yoshi, Sheik, and plenty others can throw out a jab, tilt, or normal grab if Pac-Man is running at them without much fear of punishment.

So since I don't think SH approach strategies work that well, that leaves the ground. Even with BFs versatility, the only two fruits we can really follow for an approach are Galaxian and Melon, both of which take time to charge up to. When they are thrown, Melon is good, but the opponent can still hit, dodge, or catch it, while Galaxian is easily out-prioritized by many moves. Strawberry and cherry can be followed after they bounce I guess, but we have to hope a smart person doesn't pick them up and hold them hostage. It is nice that we can cancel the standing BF charge for mixups and fakeouts (one of my main methods of getting grabs is going into BF charge, standing cancel -> dash grab), but I still don't think it's enough.

We can try to plant hydrant and use it to aid our approach, but, like most of Pac-Man's stuff, that takes time, and once it is launched, it's on cooldown for a bit. Of course, let's not forget it can be used against us (which will be easier to do since to use it offensively quickly, you're most likely going to immediately Bair it, and since you're on offense, you're not just standing in its blind spot), and once it's down, we lose our main landing mixup.

So if we can't really approach with fruit and hydrant consistently, what do we have? Pac-Man's mediocre air and dash speed along with mediocre DA, tilts, and slow startup smashes, with an awful grab for a foundation. Again, his tilts aren't bad alone, but since a smart opponent will know how awful Pac-Man's grab is, they're going to be shield happy, and the only way we beat that consistently is by being on top of them. Pac-Man can't realistically rely on grabbing as an option, so that also eliminates running up -> shield, grab, and pivot grabs as options because a miss = Fsmash to the face. Paper Maribro just reminded how HUGE of a problem this is when it comes to netting KOs, because rage will begin fueling the opponent when we struggle to KO. Trampoline doesn't really KO, and a missed grabbed when they're at higher % = Rage powered smash to your face, and most likely your death.

Not having a grab in the neutral equation just destroys his rushdown potential IMO. Just remember, shield > ANYTHING that is not a grab in this game. It's super powerful. Pac-Man has to take many more risks or land a lot more hard reads than anyone else in the aggro situation because he just can't grab consistently. I'd much rather take a slower game, charge to what I want, pester my opponent when they approach and approach on my terms when I play as him unless I'm fighting somebody who gives me no option but to chase them down.

That's why when I start matches against someone I don't HAVE to approach against, I either place a trampoline , begin charging fruit if I'm not facing a high mobility character, or run forward a little bit and place my hydrant. At the start of the match, these are safe, and they all buy (or bought) Pac-Man time to charge toward the relevant fruit item. The opponent also has to get around whatever you set up or else they give you more time to charge, and you can punish them for getting around your stuff.

EDIT 2: I'm know we're supposed to adapt to the situation and all, but I still think his camping game has a leg over his aggressive one.

Completely agreed. People exaggerate how easy it is to get around pac's traps (you can only jump or wait if I have a trampoline in front of my hydrant, and both give me time to gain advantage by either punishing your approach, or charging my fruit)
Now while I definitely agree that pac shouldn't play rushdown, I do think we can be aggressive...while using defensive tools. Notice how all of pacman's tools can be used either defensively or offensively (you can launch the hydrant, use it to launch fruit, or camp behind it. Trampoline can be placed on the stage, or used to pop sheilds. BF can be used to wall people out, or to help approach. Power pellet can ruin almost all projectile camping, or can be a powerful (although tricky to land) kill move. The key to using pacman to the fullest, is to know when to switch from the offensive to defensive and vice versa.
No one playstyle should be relied on all the time. Against fast rush down characters it would be smart to start on the defensive, but for projectile campers and zoners like mega man and villager, we should use our tools more aggressively. But of course, we should still switch it up during every match when it benefits us most like using defensive maneuvers like side B to force zoners to approach, and then playing aggressively to punish their often poor CQC (villager, DH, samus, and Mega man to an extent).

I know I stress this a lot, but we really need to emphasize how important it is to be creative when using pac man. Use your tools in innovative and unique ways to your opponent guessing like using a jabbed hydrant as a sheild that can act as an active hitbox in front of you that also absorbs projectiles (and giving you time to charge),
or placing a red meteor trampoline next to your hydrant so that the opponent gets pushed in by the water if they get too close to the hydrant (a defensive option to protect another defensive option lol)

 

[Zage]

Stuff about opponent launching the Hydrant at us

That's not what I'm getting at. Pac-Man is immediately forced into going on the defense after using his Hydrant, a move he heavily relies on. You suggested I watch videos Abadango. Here are the most recent ones, but if you have any in particular you can link I'll take a look at those too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHf2t6m6KxQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBMj4JMFtX8

Restating my previous post, take a look at how many times Pac-Man is immediately forced to air dodge or run away from his opponent after using the Hydrant, which he can't setup again until it goes away, especially at 1:50 in the second video. Once you run away you've effectively lost control of your own Hydrant and it can work against you now. Even a zoning character like DHD can capitalize off this. It's pretty clear that this is a pretty glaring weakness in Pac's playstyle, far from a misconception.

Hell. As a even better example look at 2:09 in the second video. DHD starts to become privy to this very fact and begins to take this advantage to the next step by starting to launch the hydrant himself.

Pac's cool and all, but lets be realistic. He has his fair share of disadvantages, and refusing to see them isn't going to help any.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Pac can't play aggro with his tilts or aerials, he can play aggro by walling fruit and aerials.

But rushing in isn't a good plan.

 

[dragontamer]

I agree with Zage actually. Hydrant is not a 100% safe attack. People are beginning to learn how to take advantage of PacMan's vulnerable position and punish. I will say however, its a _great_ attack, we just need to be more careful of it. Its a good option, but not a perfectly safe option to constantly throw out.

 

[BSP]

Not a Pac-Man day today. I didn't touch him in doubles out of fear, and wasn't really feeling him in singles at all. The grab gets to to me STILL.

I maybe got 1 match recorded as Pac-Man since I stopped caring after TO'ing most of the day, but I'll reiterate that I don't think he beats Sheik. Oh, and Sonic steamrolls us. Way too fast for us to do anything.

 

[dragontamer]

I don't have any great Sonics near me, but online For Glory (for whatever its worth), here's my strategy.

Usually when Sonic begins to spin-dash, I take the opportunity to charge up to a Melon.

I'll have to double-check the matchup, but I'm fairly certain Melon and above beats Sonic's spindash, which seems to be the most typical approach option. Sonic's homing attack can be beaten out with up-tilt. In fact, up-tilt can definitely out-prioritize all of Sonic's aerials, but the timing is rather strict.

Since I only have For Glory experience, let me know if the above is wrong in anyway. Thanks :-)

 

[Nu~]

It's kind of saddening really. any chance of having a great nuetral game was compromised when they gave him that grab. His hydrant can be used against him, his fruit are an awesome toolbox but take time to charge, and we suffer more than the opponent when we touch our trampoline.
I'm trying to be positive about our character's development, but it hurts to know that your character was built with a moveset that can help the opponent.

 

[Paper Maribro]

In my experience with Sheik, she is insanely mobile, however, its not that bad a matchup for us. The guy I know who I have been playing lately is considered by many to be one of the best in Aus but whenever I verse him it doesnt feel like I am playing someone horribly better than me. I believe its due to the Matchup being not horrible for us like it could be.

Not a Pac-Man day today. I didn't touch him in doubles out of fear, and wasn't really feeling him in singles at all. The grab gets to to me STILL.

I maybe got 1 match recorded as Pac-Man since I stopped caring after TO'ing most of the day, but I'll reiterate that I don't think he beats Sheik. Oh, and Sonic steamrolls us. Way too fast for us to do anything.

Create shield pressure with your projectiles and follow up with a grab. A lot of people like to run at me and shield when I charge to key. I like to run at them and grab when they do that, catches people out a lot. If they dont shield, they get keyed, if they do they get grabbed.

Dunno about Sonic, I dont really think anyone decent locally really takes much notice of him to be honest. I also think Fox is worse for us just because of his jab. His jab combos into just about anything he wants, is faster than our entire moveset and he has the mobility to avoid a lot of our stuff. The only thing going for us is that Fox is pretty light and can be killed fairly easily below 120% by a few of our fruit and Smash attacks.

I don't have any great Sonics near me, but online For Glory (for whatever its worth), here's my strategy.

Usually when Sonic begins to spin-dash, I take the opportunity to charge up to a Melon.

I'll have to double-check the matchup, but I'm fairly certain Melon and above beats Sonic's spindash, which seems to be the most typical approach option. Sonic's homing attack can be beaten out with up-tilt. In fact, up-tilt can definitely out-prioritize all of Sonic's aerials, but the timing is rather strict.

Since I only have For Glory experience, let me know if the above is wrong in anyway. Thanks :-)

First off, congrats on becoming a mod man!

In terms of spin dash, even clashing with it would put Sonic in quite a bit of lag (assuming it cancels the move like most clashes) that we could follow up with anything. I know Orange stops Jrs side-b but I have no idea what stops sonics. I swear sometimes cherry is enough and other times Orange clashes. Weird hitbox

It's kind of saddening really. any chance of having a great nuetral game was compromised when they gave him that grab. His hydrant can be used against him, his fruit are an awesome toolbox but take time to charge, and we suffer more than the opponent when we touch our trampoline.
I'm trying to be positive about our character's development, but it hurts to know that your character was built with a moveset that can help the opponent.

Pacs neutral is *** because of a bad combination of poor grab and low range with a non-spammable projectile. It really makes fighting a lot of the cast a lot harder than it should be when you consider the fact that our tools can be used against us really easily by character like Fox who have stupid mobility crossed up with high levels of power with fairly lagless moves.

We just gotta work around it though, Pac in advantage is scary and Pac in disadvantage has two combo breakers and a superb recovery.

 

[dragontamer]

He can't do a SH aerial strategy that well because:

Agree with one tidbit.

SH approaches with PacMan can be done, but only at high risk. BUT... If you're using Galaxian or Melon as cover, SH has a ton of options and is much safer.

Dair becomes an interesting mixup option (forces opponents to hold shield longer than what they're probably used to). SH Dair auto-cancels perfectly btw and works best with Melon coverage. (But definitely auto-cancel that Dair. Missing the auto-cancel is a MAJOR mistake and opens you up).

SH Fair is a crutch and a bad habit vs most opponents. Its a bit deceptive, but SH Fair's weird auto-cancel makes landing lag a major issue for the move, but because Fair has extremely awesome IASA frames, you don't "intuitively" realize how bad SH Fair's landing actually is. (Well... it isn't awful, but its grabbable. And the landing-lag has a terrible hurt-box that allows everyone to grab you).

However, SH Fair vs tall characters like Rob, Bowser, Gannondorf, Rosalina is a great shield poke. Don't overcommit, the purpose of SH Fair is more of a spacing tool, to smack their shield and retreat. A SH Fair against these taller characters give you enough air-time to auto-cancel and then retreat out of their grab range.... so long as you aim "high".

Against tall characters, SH Fair -> Nair is your "all in", if you're trying to combo them. And alternating between SH Fair -> Retreat and SH Dair forces the opponent to play a meaner footsies game.

Ultimately, SH Fair is a character-specific approach strategy. Against the typical characters, I can't recommend it.

Pac-Man's mediocre air and dash speed along with mediocre DA, tilts, and slow startup smashes, with an awful grab for a foundation. Again, his tilts aren't bad alone, but since a smart opponent will know how awful Pac-Man's grab is, they're going to be shield happy, and the only way we beat that consistently is by being on top of them. Pac-Man can't realistically rely on grabbing as an option, so that also eliminates running up -> shield, grab, and pivot grabs as options because a miss = Fsmash to the face. Paper Maribro just reminded how HUGE of a problem this is when it comes to netting KOs, because rage will begin fueling the opponent when we struggle to KO. Trampoline doesn't really KO, and a missed grabbed when they're at higher % = Rage powered smash to your face, and most likely your death.

Pac-Man's FTilt is my primary grounded approach tool. It makes Villager's Umbrella look awful, as long as you're mindful of the spacing, its a great attack.

Its basically Gannondorf's FTilt, except faster and with less range and damage. There's some funky priority going on with Pac-Man's FTilt, its almost as if the early frames of it are completely disjointed, and then the later animation frames then reapply the hurtbox. (I'm not 100% sure though)

EDIT 2: I'm know we're supposed to adapt to the situation and all, but I still think his camping game has a leg over his aggressive one.

I say go super-aggressive in the Air. If you connect with a Jab, FTilt, DTilt, go for it and follow them to the air. Almost every time, PacMan has a good advantage.

Going back to this Jab / FTilt / DTilt thing, I feel like you shouldn't Hydrant in the neutral. Only Hydrant when you've captured an advantage (Jab, FTilt, or DTilt)... or as a tool to recapture the momentum (falling Hydrant or whatever)

First off, congrats on becoming a mod man!

Thanks! As the game evolves, I know I'm going to fall behind a bit. I'm very much a "theory" guy. But hopefully, that will be enough to lead discussions in this forum.

In terms of spin dash, even clashing with it would put Sonic in quite a bit of lag (assuming it cancels the move like most clashes) that we could follow up with anything. I know Orange stops Jrs side-b but I have no idea what stops sonics. I swear sometimes cherry is enough and other times Orange clashes. Weird hitbox

I'm fairly certain that Orange clashes with Sonic's, while Melon straight up beats the spin-dash.

I feel like Galexian also wins, but I'm not 100% sure anymore to be honest. Forgot if it was back in 1.0.3 or if its modern in 1.0.4.

As for Orange vs Melon, if Sonic is SpinDashing, I'd just do the obvious shield and recharge to Melon for his next approach. The For-Glory Sonics I play don't hang around, they're more of a hit-and-run type, giving me plenty of charging time.

Again though, I don't have experience against offline good Sonic players.

 

[Nu~]

Well I know a lot of you don't want to discuss customs, but after testing with the dire hydrant...it's really not a bad move. It's good for avoiding dash attacks and gives us another spacing tool. And it can't be used against us unless reflected. Unfortunately this does take away a kill move (launching the hydrant)
I'm also iffy about the freaky fruit. On one hand, strawberry is AMAZING. Due to its ability to bring opponents to us, it can lead into any smash attack (finally a good way to set up a kill outside of a hard read). Cherry is amazing for making a wall, Orange is pretty much a better falco laser with awesome priority, Apple is awesome for tricking opponents due to its exponentially increasing speed, and the melon is a kill move that we can z drop into the hydrant to launch it...but we lose 4 tools. We no longer have a stun bell for quick kill set ups, we lose our combo starter in the galaxian, we throw away our key's usefulness for killing and damage wracking, and our melon can no longer be ran after to cover our approach.

 

[BSP]

I don't have any great Sonics near me, but online For Glory (for whatever its worth), here's my strategy.

Usually when Sonic begins to spin-dash, I take the opportunity to charge up to a Melon.

I'll have to double-check the matchup, but I'm fairly certain Melon and above beats Sonic's spindash, which seems to be the most typical approach option. Sonic's homing attack can be beaten out with up-tilt. In fact, up-tilt can definitely out-prioritize all of Sonic's aerials, but the timing is rather strict.

Since I only have For Glory experience, let me know if the above is wrong in anyway. Thanks :-)

Spindash isn't even the main problem, it's him running at us and being in our face whenever he wants, along with having a move that's perfect for punishing trampolines (Homing Attack, does freaking 12% full charge and is nigh unpunishable). Spindash is nice for him to plow our hydrants out the way very quickly though.

I played Brawlman1000 some with my Pac-Man tonight. I can usually go even with him with my Mario, but I can't keep up with Pac-Man. I can't really go aggro because Sonic's rushdown game is better. He is faster, has better normals, and he can grab, unlike us. When Sonic spaces his stuff correctly, the safest response is shield, which is awful because grabbing isn't an option. Not going to lie, but I feel like I'm throwing out moves vs. Sonic and hope they hit because I'm too scared to wait for him to do something. If I have to put my shield up, I'm screwed.

I wouldn't even bother with hydrants and trampoline because he can run right through the former and HA you for the latter.

Did I mention we can't grab?

Even if the melon beats his spindash (Again, him running around is more dangerous, during which he can catch and dodge our stuff), we have to get to the melon first, and I have no idea how to do that when Sonic gets around our stuff so easily.

If we have to play catch up, we're basically done.

It's kind of saddening really. any chance of having a great nuetral game was compromised when they gave him that grab. His hydrant can be used against him, his fruit are an awesome toolbox but take time to charge, and we suffer more than the opponent when we touch our trampoline.
I'm trying to be positive about our character's development, but it hurts to know that your character was built with a moveset that can help the opponent.

Yeah, I'm having second thoughts. I would be fine with everything if it wasn't for the grab. I would be fine with everything being potentially used against us if I had a reliable grab. I wouldn't be so scared to shield or pressured to run if I could just run up and grab obvious stuff.

The tractor beam is just overkill. Not sure how much longer I'm going to put up with it.

In my experience with Sheik, she is insanely mobile, however, its not that bad a matchup for us. The guy I know who I have been playing lately is considered by many to be one of the best in Aus but whenever I verse him it doesnt feel like I am playing someone horribly better than me. I believe its due to the Matchup being not horrible for us like it could be.

Meh, I tried. I admit, this wasn't really my day with Pac-Man, but I still don't see much we can do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nIIFlFNPnw

Create shield pressure with your projectiles and follow up with a grab. A lot of people like to run at me and shield when I charge to key. I like to run at them and grab when they do that, catches people out a lot. If they dont shield, they get keyed, if they do they get grabbed.

Dunno about Sonic, I dont really think anyone decent locally really takes much notice of him to be honest. I also think Fox is worse for us just because of his jab. His jab combos into just about anything he wants, is faster than our entire moveset and he has the mobility to avoid a lot of our stuff. The only thing going for us is that Fox is pretty light and can be killed fairly easily below 120% by a few of our fruit and Smash attacks.

The high mobility characters won't be letting us get to key easily, and they can and should punish us for our keepaway tools. I know about the charge cancel -> grab trick, it usually works. Even then, the risk reward is still heavily in the opponents favor, because the moment you miss, you're eating a charged smash.

 

[Nu~]

Make more noise...and maybe sakurai will give us a good grab? (Sakurai should solve the FG pacman problem by making anyone that falls into pac's trampoline go into helpless mode, and then give us a good grab while he's at it)
I'm just hoping and wishing at this point...

 

[Paper Maribro]

Guys, I just played against a Sonic CPU and even key clashed with one of his blue ball moves.

 

[dragontamer]

Spindash isn't even the main problem, it's him running at us and being in our face whenever he wants, along with having a move that's perfect for punishing trampolines (Homing Attack, does freaking 12% full charge and is nigh unpunishable). Spindash is nice for him to plow our hydrants out the way very quickly though.

I played Brawlman1000 some with my Pac-Man tonight. I can usually go even with him with my Mario, but I can't keep up with Pac-Man. I can't really go aggro because Sonic's rushdown game is better. He is faster, has better normals, and he can grab, unlike us. When Sonic spaces his stuff correctly, the safest response is shield, which is awful because grabbing isn't an option. Not going to lie, but I feel like I'm throwing out moves vs. Sonic and hope they hit because I'm too scared to wait for him to do something. If I have to put my shield up, I'm screwed.

I also play Mario on occasion, but note that Mario has an unusually good grab (very little cooldown). It's range is piss poor, but so is everything else on Mario, so you don't notice it's one downside. Otherwise, its a fast awesome grab.

Even in online For Glory, I know the feeling you're talking about. I generally have confidence in FTilt though, for beating out a lot of Sonic's actions.

EDIT: Actually, Sonic's Dash attack is pretty darn good IIRC and wins vs FTilt more often than not. I dunno why I brainfarted there.

Meh, I tried. I admit, this wasn't really my day with Pac-Man, but I still don't see much we can do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nIIFlFNPnw

There were two ledgeguard moments in your second stock when the Shiek respected the hydrant. Its a situation we're all familiar with: high level opponent stays on the ledge, respecting the hydrant. Just sitting there, and the best response we can have is "charge charge charge".

I'm almost inclined to think this is wrong. I've noticed that Strawberry and Cherry can get them off the ledge. If they regrab we can replant hydrant and continue. I feel like PacMan ought to have _some_ strategy that can capitalize upon a passive opponent on the ledge.

The jab bouncing Hydrant into a perfectly spaced Strawberry should give us free 8%, or at least force them to fall off / regrab. I admit though that I can't do this consistently. But its an issue I've been thinking about recently... and its definitely an important part of our trap game against ledge-wakeup.

----------------

Against Shiek, it is always a mistake to Bair the hydrant in the neutral. The 0:46 Hydrant Bair demonstrates exactly this issue. Against full-screen Shiek, you need to play patient. Stay behind hydrant, wait for Shiek to hit it, and only AFTER Shiek hits it a bit... should you launch it with Bair.

Or camp behind it and charge fruit. I feel like mastery of the "Shielded->Sidestep" technique against water helps stay in position behind the Hydrant. Above the Hydrant is dangerous, and opens you up to Shiek's Fair. Behind is fine, as long as you're confident in standing still despite water-pressure (Again, Shield->Sidestep with the right timing). Otherwise, you get pushed off and have to make a ledge-wakeup... which is always a major disadvantage.

--------------

You really need to take advantage of Cherry / Strawberry vs Shiek's needles. I'm fairly certain they block even when "resting" on the ground.

Actually, you didn't use Strawberry at all. Strawberry is the goto anti-air option. The Shiek was very heavily jumping and double-jumping. Do a short-hop Strawberry, which leaves a Strawberry "hanging" in the air for a good chunk of time, and it almost always gains you either breathing room, or easy 8% damage.

Strawberry is hard to use against you. As a fruit in the hand, it leaves the opponent hopeless against aerial approaches. Learn to approach opponents who have Strawberry / Cherry. They can't throw the things "up" (at least, very far), and it shuts off Shiek's Fair. I'm not convinced that the opponent "holding on" to the Strawberry / Cherry is actually a disadvantage for us... but I admit that I need more matchup experience to know for sure.

------------

I feel like you Trampoline during neutral too much. Each trampoline you did led to Shiek comboing you after-the-fact. Trampoline doesn't really force Shiek to change any approach. You KNOW how Shiek is approaching you, she's gonna either throw needles or SH Fair you. And Trampoline stops neither of those.

In contrast, Shiek gets two easy combos as you recover from Trampoline in first stock, and a fully charged needle storm (and-then-some) in your 2nd stock. In fact, landing from a whiffed Trampoline attempt was the reason you lost your 2nd stock.

For the entire match, not a single on-stage Trampoline did you any good. And in this Pacman vs Shiek matchup, I don't expect it to either.

 

[Paper Maribro]

We do have a counter to people sitting on the ledge.

Hydrant stage spike. If they tech, gimp them, if they don't, bye bye Sheiky.

Edit: I saved some replays against the good Sheik player. Will record and upload soon.

 

[Nu~]

Yeah. Maybe we should stop being pessimistic about pac-man. It stops forward growth.
Perhaps we can accelerate his development to the point that he won't need a grab?

 

[dragontamer]

We do have a counter to people sitting on the ledge.

Hydrant stage spike. If they tech, gimp them, if they don't, bye bye Sheiky.

http://youtu.be/6nIIFlFNPnw?t=1m20s

The Hydrant is already bouncing, which is what makes the Shiek respect the ledge wakeup. Almost all high-level players I know of wait on the ledge for significant periods of time when Hydrant->Jab has been setup.

Well-spaced Bell is the best solution if you already have it charged. Even if they fast-fall and regrab, the lack of invulnerability means a free Bair stage-spike.

But realistically, the situation in the video happens very often. I know I've hit opponents with Apples and Strawberries before in that situation. I don't know if that's our best option though. My bet for an anti-ledge fruit is Strawberry and Cherry, as the knockback angle is lower.

Another option is to place Hydrant more precisely so that it falls off the ledge and hits the hanging opponent after a few bounces. I personally always place my hydrants so that the 3rd or 4th bounce will hit an opponent off the ledge, and then position myself to FSmash a predicted Roll. I've been told that this technique has a hole however, but I've never seen an opponent get through it personally.

You really want to remove the "wait off the ledge" option.

---------------

I haven't perfected the art of ledge guarding. But I really do think that the Hydrant was misplaced. It should have been closer to better threaten the Shiek, and the strategy of throwing Orange was also a mistake. Strawberry may have knocked Shiek off the ledge and offered stronger wakeup pressure. I know that for sure.

What I don't know is the optimal strategy however. What I do know, is if you place the hydrant too far "inwards" like that, opponents will just hang off that ledge in that manner.

 

[Paper Maribro]

What's wrong with a solid bair? It will have similar results to a hydrant drop but slightly weaker. Can still setup for gimps or at least solid damage.

Like I said, I will show you my Sheik plays soon. I think I did pretty well considering he is a much better player than me. The only thing you will probably tell me off for is trying to force too many grabs in.

 

[dragontamer]

What's wrong with a solid bair? It will have similar results to a hydrant drop but slightly weaker. Can still setup for gimps or at least solid damage.

I edited the video link just now. Sorry about that. Here it is again: http://youtu.be/6nIIFlFNPnw?t=1m20s

The issue with Bair is that you're out of position. Its a great move and I think BSP already used it well throughout the match. But in the specific situation of "Bair->Jab Hydrant Ledge Guard" that I'm talking about, PacMan is too far from the ledge to really threaten a Bair.

Now, I think that a closer Hydrant Bair->Jab setup would cover a Pacman off-ledge -> Bair. But BSP's Hydrant positioning was definitely wrong for a Bair followup (which might be the real problem)

Better Hydrant positioning probably would have solidified a kill here. The mistake was repeated a little bit later in the video IIRC.

 

[fromundaman]

I'm not going to lie, I am dying a little on the inside from both reading some of the messages and watching the Abadango videos in this thread.



I'm going to dump a huge wall of text here with a mixture of tech, general theory, strategies, matchup knowledge and stuff to avoid based on what I've experienced. I won't claim to be the best, but then again if Abadango is the best then wow we are coasting on opponents not knowing the matchup and need to step up our game (He gave away all 3 matches at least once but the opponents couldn't recognize it).


______


First off, let's talk about SH Fair.

You can, in one SH, do a Fair and any aerial or special before you land. If you did the Fair while rising and DON'T fast fall, you will also have no landing lag.
I need to test when my training partner comes over next against characters with really good OoS options, but most characters cannot punish a well spaced Fair if you retreat with it and don't Fast Fall. This makes it a relatively safe poke option (Still punishable on read obviously) and opens a lot of mixups.

Say they try to roll, even if you whiffed your Fair, if you were retreating back then you can punish the roll with Nair before you land (For far rolls, you can use fruit, but depends on which one you have). Spotdodge gets punished on reaction with Fair/Nair/fruit/etc.

This means that at spaced Fair range, they have to respect a SH and either shield or pre-emptively throw out a move to beat Fair. This is where the mindgames start. If your opponent tends to opt for shield, you can just empty hop into a grab (This is probably one of the most reliable ways to get grabs for me). You can also FF into a trampoline to make them feel like shield is not a safe option. If you're feeling ballsy you can even Fair then go behind them and throw a Bair to catch an OoS option.

If they decide to throw out a move to punish a Fair and you didn't throw out a move, then you can easily punish.

One option at this range to mix them up and make them feel like they can't just wait it out in shield is to empty jump at this range and not move forward at all (AKA stay out of most character's range) then just fast fall a fruit charge. At that point you can just release whatever fruit you have as soon as you see the shield drop (Or if you can't react to that then either shield cancel or guess and throw it; you're safe regardless, but make sure to stay close to stop them from grabbing the fruit).


______

Also one thing I'm seeing a lot in this thread is talk about how Pac rushes down, or how he deals with shields, or how he camps. I am getting flashbacks to the Injustice Joker forums where they assumed neutral game and traps were separate and 90% of them ended up playing the character completely wrong.

Pacman is not a zoner nor a rushdown; he is a setup/traps character. This character archetype is new to the series and Pacman actually differs from typical trap characters in fighting games in two important ways:

1) His traps can be used against him.

2) Unlike typical trap characters, Pacman is actually a well rounded character outside of his setups.

I do like the idea Dragontamer just presented about getting people off of the edge; this is the sort of thing we should be looking at. We need to limit our opponent's options whenever possible.

Take the ledge for example. At the ledge an opponent has 6 options:

-Ledge Jump
-Ledge Roll
-Ledge neutral getup
-Ledge getup attack
-Ledge drop
-Stay on the ledge

Worst case scenario, you want to be covering at least 3 of these options. With time to setup, you can and should cover all 6 at once (I already gave an example with hydrant, trampoline and bell a few weeks ago).


There are also actually a lot of ledge setups that look similar but cover different options based on how you do it. For example, in the bouncing hydrant setup Dragontamer just mentioned, there are a few ways out if you don't throw out an attack:

-Ledge roll
-A well timed Neutral Ledge wakeup
-An early ledge drop to avoid the hydrant

Now here's the thing: Based on what Pacman does, he can cover all of these options, just not all at the same time. Dsmash and Fsmash in either direction can cover the first two options, and a run off aerial or fruit can cover the 3rd. The opponent has to make a decision before he can check what you do otherwise his window to escape shrinks. This sets up a 33/33/33 guessing situation completely in our favor.



This was just an example, but these are the sort of things we need to mess with.
Here's another example that can be used in the neutral:

Grab your own apple. The best way I've found to do this is to throw it at a hydrant when the water is spraying. Once you have it in hand throwing it down makes it bounce in place, creating a wall.
If you can put this wall on one side of them and an active hydrant (I mean spraying water) on the other, their only options to avoid getting hit become to jump over the water, spotdodge the water, or shield the apple.
At this point throwing aerials at them is 100% safe (Unless they have an invul on startup move that makes them jump over the water like SL or Dolphin Slash) and punishes jumping and spotdodging.
A grab at this point beats spotdodging and shielding the fruit.
If you're riding the water charging a smash can beat the jump and the spotdodge, and is safe against shield.

If in this situation you somehow managed to set this up AND be behind the hydrant, then launching the hydrant behind the water is 100% safe, will punish anything except shield and will allow you to follow with anything against an opponent who did shield and probably shield poke if the hydrant didn't already do that.


These are just examples, and while I have landed both before in real matches, they are all situational.

That said, we are playing a trap character, so be creative and use whatever setup you can. Keep in mind that Apple and Melon when thrown up/down create a wall (In different ways, but still a wall) and that fruit gushing is a thing that can help a lot. In fact fruit gushing CAN be used to cover whiffed grabs. I've thrown bell upwards in front of an active hydrant, ran up and grabbed, then when they spotdodged and came to punish, they were hit by a gushed bell allowing me to punish.

I cannot stress this enough: Be creative and remember that we are playing a trap character. We should be trying to be tricky and set up stupidly broken traps. The goal should be to make the opponent feel like they have no options and that anyone who doesn't know the matchup should be completely free. Use slants. Use water. Use platforms. All of these things affect our ability to set up traps.



____________


On a related note... Key is not the only fruit. In fact I would say it's not even the best fruit unless you are really, REALLY needing to kill an opponent. It is strong, sure, and it moves fast, but it has less utility than any other fruit and picking it up is nigh impossible unless the opponent grabs it first.


Speaking of grabbing fruits, having the fruits in your hand is much MUCH better than having it charged but not out. For one your fruits get a lot more versatility in that you can Z-drop them and jump cancel glide toss them (Very important!), but they also act differently when thrown up and down than they normally do. This makes them all much more useful for setting up traps, punishing OoS (More on this later), and edge guarding.
For example, throwing a melon downwards/upwards in front of the ledge will prevent an opponent from grabbing the ledge for the melon's duration.


Now picking up the fruits in the first place can be a challenge. Here's some ways I've found to pick these up easily:

-Cherry: Just follow it, water gush it back to yourself, or throw it at a slant.
-Strawberry: Same as the above.
-Orange: I honestly don't have a clue on how to grab this one easily. Maybe with a slant? I don't remember if that works for Orange.
-Apple: Water gush it. Slants don't work, although it does get interesting properties on slants.
-Melon: Following it works, but the opponent can easily grab it away from you. Slants are another way, or hitting your hydrant then catching it.
-Galaga Ship: Follow it or throw it at a platform.
-Bell: Follow it. It can be caught through Hydrant gushing, but the water gushed bell is so good it's sometimes worth leaving it out.
-Key: I don't know. Have the opponent catch it, throw it back, then catch it yourself?



_________

Speaking of fruits... DON'T LET THE OPPONENT GRAB YOUR FRUIT (ESPECIALLY BELL)! This is very, VERY important, especially if the character in question has projectiles of any kind.
Once an opponent has your fruit, if they know the matchup then they know they have literally nothing to fear from you at a range anymore. Hydrant launches are reactable, so they can just wait and shield, or even worse, if they have a decent projectile, shoot it right when you are about to use a move that launches.

This forces Pacman to approach, and against some characters that can be very bad, or in some cases borderline impossible.
If the other player has the life lead, then they can literally just run away from you for the rest of the match, especially if they are someone like Sonic.

I had my training partner, air camp me as Kirby with my bell on the Kongo Jungle 64 stage the other day. After 4 minutes I killed myself and ended the match so we could play a less stupid match.

______


Now as for the reason I said to ESPECIALLY not let the opponent grab bell is the same reason as why I said having a fruit in hand helps with OoS game.

I'm sure many of you know that the fastest ways to drop shield are through either grabbing, jumping or jump canceled actions like UpB (By the way, UpB OoS is godlike) or Usmash.

However, there is one more jump canceled action: The jump canceled item toss. This allows you to drop shield as fast as the jumping or grabbing and throw the item in your hand, and item tosses are already fast. When the item in question is bell, this allows the person holding the bell to punish nearly anything with a jump canceled glide tossed stun which can combo into the kill move of your choice.



____

Another piece of random tech one of the guys at my local scene who dabbled in Pacman gave me:

When the opponent dies, throw a trampoline right where they will respawn.
This will kill their invulnerability time and can even sometimes lead to a punish as they have no choice but to hit that as soon as they come back.

If they got star KO'd/screen splatted, make it either red or set it to the highest bounce, depending on the stage (Example, free fall is less useful on a stage like BF since they won't fall far, but on Skyworld it can eat the entire invulnerability time and give you a punish.).



_________


I feel like I'm forgetting some important things, but oh well. I just wrote out 5 full pages, so I'm done for tonight.


________

EDIT:

Wait, actually I forgot some anti-diddy tech:

If Diddy throws out a banana, walk over to it and lay a trampoline right on top of it. It prevents Diddy from grabbing it while simultaneously preventing him from pulling one out, essentially taking it out of the game.

 

[Nu~]

I'm not going to lie, I am dying a little on the inside from both reading some of the messages and watching the Abadango videos in this thread.



I'm going to dump a huge wall of text here with a mixture of tech, general theory, strategies, matchup knowledge and stuff to avoid based on what I've experienced. I won't claim to be the best, but then again if Abadango is the best then wow we are coasting on opponents not knowing the matchup and need to step up our game (He gave away all 3 matches at least once but the opponents couldn't recognize it).


______


First off, let's talk about SH Fair.

You can, in one SH, do a Fair and any aerial or special before you land. If you did the Fair while rising and DON'T fast fall, you will also have no landing lag.
I need to test when my training partner comes over next against characters with really good OoS options, but most characters cannot punish a well spaced Fair if you retreat with it and don't Fast Fall. This makes it a relatively safe poke option (Still punishable on read obviously) and opens a lot of mixups.

Say they try to roll, even if you whiffed your Fair, if you were retreating back then you can punish the roll with Nair before you land (For far rolls, you can use fruit, but depends on which one you have). Spotdodge gets punished on reaction with Fair/Nair/fruit/etc.

This means that at spaced Fair range, they have to respect a SH and either shield or pre-emptively throw out a move to beat Fair. This is where the mindgames start. If your opponent tends to opt for shield, you can just empty hop into a grab (This is probably one of the most reliable ways to get grabs for me). You can also FF into a trampoline to make them feel like shield is not a safe option. If you're feeling ballsy you can even Fair then go behind them and throw a Bair to catch an OoS option.

If they decide to throw out a move to punish a Fair and you didn't throw out a move, then you can easily punish.

One option at this range to mix them up and make them feel like they can't just wait it out in shield is to empty jump at this range and not move forward at all (AKA stay out of most character's range) then just fast fall a fruit charge. At that point you can just release whatever fruit you have as soon as you see the shield drop (Or if you can't react to that then either shield cancel or guess and throw it; you're safe regardless, but make sure to stay close to stop them from grabbing the fruit).


______

Also one thing I'm seeing a lot in this thread is talk about how Pac rushes down, or how he deals with shields, or how he camps. I am getting flashbacks to the Injustice Joker forums where they assumed neutral game and traps were separate and 90% of them ended up playing the character completely wrong.

Pacman is not a zoner nor a rushdown; he is a setup/traps character. This character archetype is new to the series and Pacman actually differs from typical trap characters in fighting games in two important ways:

1) His traps can be used against him.

2) Unlike typical trap characters, Pacman is actually a well rounded character outside of his setups.

I do like the idea Dragontamer just presented about getting people off of the edge; this is the sort of thing we should be looking at. We need to limit our opponent's options whenever possible.

Take the ledge for example. At the ledge an opponent has 6 options:

-Ledge Jump
-Ledge Roll
-Ledge neutral getup
-Ledge getup attack
-Ledge drop
-Stay on the ledge

Worst case scenario, you want to be covering at least 3 of these options. With time to setup, you can and should cover all 6 at once (I already gave an example with hydrant, trampoline and bell a few weeks ago).


There are also actually a lot of ledge setups that look similar but cover different options based on how you do it. For example, in the bouncing hydrant setup Dragontamer just mentioned, there are a few ways out if you don't throw out an attack:

-Ledge roll
-A well timed Neutral Ledge wakeup
-An early ledge drop to avoid the hydrant

Now here's the thing: Based on what Pacman does, he can cover all of these options, just not all at the same time. Dsmash and Fsmash in either direction can cover the first two options, and a run off aerial or fruit can cover the 3rd. The opponent has to make a decision before he can check what you do otherwise his window to escape shrinks. This sets up a 33/33/33 guessing situation completely in our favor.



This was just an example, but these are the sort of things we need to mess with.
Here's another example that can be used in the neutral:

Grab your own apple. The best way I've found to do this is to throw it at a hydrant when the water is spraying. Once you have it in hand throwing it down makes it bounce in place, creating a wall.
If you can put this wall on one side of them and an active hydrant (I mean spraying water) on the other, their only options to avoid getting hit become to jump over the water, spotdodge the water, or shield the apple.
At this point throwing aerials at them is 100% safe (Unless they have an invul on startup move that makes them jump over the water like SL or Dolphin Slash) and punishes jumping and spotdodging.
A grab at this point beats spotdodging and shielding the fruit.
If you're riding the water charging a smash can beat the jump and the spotdodge, and is safe against shield.

If in this situation you somehow managed to set this up AND be behind the hydrant, then launching the hydrant behind the water is 100% safe, will punish anything except shield and will allow you to follow with anything against an opponent who did shield and probably shield poke if the hydrant didn't already do that.


These are just examples, and while I have landed both before in real matches, they are all situational.

That said, we are playing a trap character, so be creative and use whatever setup you can. Keep in mind that Apple and Melon when thrown up/down create a wall (In different ways, but still a wall) and that fruit gushing is a thing that can help a lot. In fact fruit gushing CAN be used to cover whiffed grabs. I've thrown bell upwards in front of an active hydrant, ran up and grabbed, then when they spotdodged and came to punish, they were hit by a gushed bell allowing me to punish.

I cannot stress this enough: Be creative and remember that we are playing a trap character. We should be trying to be tricky and set up stupidly broken traps. The goal should be to make the opponent feel like they have no options and that anyone who doesn't know the matchup should be completely free. Use slants. Use water. Use platforms. All of these things affect our ability to set up traps.



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On a related note... Key is not the only fruit. In fact I would say it's not even the best fruit unless you are really, REALLY needing to kill an opponent. It is strong, sure, and it moves fast, but it has less utility than any other fruit and picking it up is nigh impossible unless the opponent grabs it first.


Speaking of grabbing fruits, having the fruits in your hand is much MUCH better than having it charged but not out. For one your fruits get a lot more versatility in that you can Z-drop them and jump cancel glide toss them (Very important!), but they also act differently when thrown up and down than they normally do. This makes them all much more useful for setting up traps, punishing OoS (More on this later), and edge guarding.
For example, throwing a melon downwards/upwards in front of the ledge will prevent an opponent from grabbing the ledge for the melon's duration.


Now picking up the fruits in the first place can be a challenge. Here's some ways I've found to pick these up easily:

-Cherry: Just follow it, water gush it back to yourself, or throw it at a slant.
-Strawberry: Same as the above.
-Orange: I honestly don't have a clue on how to grab this one easily. Maybe with a slant? I don't remember if that works for Orange.
-Apple: Water gush it. Slants don't work, although it does get interesting properties on slants.
-Melon: Following it works, but the opponent can easily grab it away from you. Slants are another way, or hitting your hydrant then catching it.
-Galaga Ship: Follow it or throw it at a platform.
-Bell: Follow it. It can be caught through Hydrant gushing, but the water gushed bell is so good it's sometimes worth leaving it out.
-Key: I don't know. Have the opponent catch it, throw it back, then catch it yourself?



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Speaking of fruits... DON'T LET THE OPPONENT GRAB YOUR FRUIT (ESPECIALLY BELL)! This is very, VERY important, especially if the character in question has projectiles of any kind.
Once an opponent has your fruit, if they know the matchup then they know they have literally nothing to fear from you at a range anymore. Hydrant launches are reactable, so they can just wait and shield, or even worse, if they have a decent projectile, shoot it right when you are about to use a move that launches.

This forces Pacman to approach, and against some characters that can be very bad, or in some cases borderline impossible.
If the other player has the life lead, then they can literally just run away from you for the rest of the match, especially if they are someone like Sonic.

I had my training partner, air camp me as Kirby with my bell on the Kongo Jungle 64 stage the other day. After 4 minutes I killed myself and ended the match so we could play a less stupid match.

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Now as for the reason I said to ESPECIALLY not let the opponent grab bell is the same reason as why I said having a fruit in hand helps with OoS game.

I'm sure many of you know that the fastest ways to drop shield are through either grabbing, jumping or jump canceled actions like UpB (By the way, UpB OoS is godlike) or Usmash.

However, there is one more jump canceled action: The jump canceled item toss. This allows you to drop shield as fast as the jumping or grabbing and throw the item in your hand, and item tosses are already fast. When the item in question is bell, this allows the person holding the bell to punish nearly anything with a jump canceled glide tossed stun which can combo into the kill move of your choice.



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Another piece of random tech one of the guys at my local scene who dabbled in Pacman gave me:

When the opponent dies, throw a trampoline right where they will respawn.
This will kill their invulnerability time and can even sometimes lead to a punish as they have no choice but to hit that as soon as they come back.

If they got star KO'd/screen splatted, make it either red or set it to the highest bounce, depending on the stage (Example, free fall is less useful on a stage like BF since they won't fall far, but on Skyworld it can eat the entire invulnerability time and give you a punish.).



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I feel like I'm forgetting some important things, but oh well. I just wrote out 5 full pages, so I'm done for tonight.


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EDIT:

Wait, actually I forgot some anti-diddy tech:

If Diddy throws out a banana, walk over to it and lay a trampoline right on top of it. It prevents Diddy from grabbing it while simultaneously preventing him from pulling one out, essentially taking it out of the game.

^^^So much this!!
I can't agree more. I knew our character was from a different archetype and that his moveset demands creativity, but I didn't know that he was a traps/setups character (although I did have a feeling). I thought he was supposed to be more of a toolbox one. But what you have said really opens my eyes.

I'm gonna have 3x as much fun as I did before with pac-man, because this is my favorite archetype (hehehehe...)

Funny, I've been making traps on the trampoline thread ever since I made it, and I still didn't see what archetype of would be. I just assumed that he could fit in all of them.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

^^^So much this!!
I can't agree more. I knew our character was from a different archetype and that his moveset demands creativity, but I didn't know that he was a traps/setups character. I thought he was supposed to be a toolbox one. But what you have said really opens my eyes.

I'm gonna have 3x as much fun as I did before with pac-man, because this is my favorite archetype (hehehehe...)

Funny, I've been making traps on the trampoline thread ever since I made it, and I still didn't see what archetype of would be. I just assumed that he could fit in all of them.

I knew Pac-Man was a Trap-Character the moment I used Freaky Fruit, On-Fire Hydrant and Meteor Trampoline.

I knew he was a trap character the moment I used Meteor Trampoline.

Well I know a lot of you don't want to discuss customs, but after testing with the dire hydrant...it's really not a bad move. It's good for avoiding dash attacks and gives us another spacing tool. And it can't be used against us unless reflected. Unfortunately this does take away a kill move (launching the hydrant)
I'm also iffy about the freaky fruit. On one hand, strawberry is AMAZING. Due to its ability to bring opponents to us, it can lead into any smash attack (finally a good way to set up a kill outside of a hard read). Cherry is amazing for making a wall, Orange is pretty much a better falco laser with awesome priority, Apple is awesome for tricking opponents due to its exponentially increasing speed, and the melon is a kill move that we can z drop into the hydrant to launch it...but we lose 4 tools. We no longer have a stun bell for quick kill set ups, we lose our combo starter in the galaxian, we throw away our key's usefulness for killing and damage wracking, and our melon can no longer be ran after to cover our approach.

-Strawberry sets up kills easily if you smash the opponents hit by it.
-Cherry and Strawberry can give that little stun that turns a disadvantage into an aerial combo
-Melon kills mad early
-Apple can be ran after