Pac-Man Custom Moveset Discussion

[WeirdChillFever]

You shouldn't even pick Dire Hydrant against (Customs) Villager since the Non-Dire Hydrant can be placed on the Sapling.

 

[Teshie U]

Sapling doesn't bother me much so far. Plus he can remove the hydrant easily if its placed somewhere he doesn't like.

I think you folks may have missed my point though.

Some characters are very resistant to having the hydrant launched at them. Some characters also might be more easily harrassed from above with down B and I wouldn't want to have to launch it every time I want to re-position it as it could be dangerous vs reflectors or characters that launch it better.

Dire Hydrant trades off some reward for the removal of some dangerous counterplay to hydrant imo. Definitely worth looking into.

 

[Galaxian]

I think the solution to that is to not launch the Hydrant instead of picking the inferior version.

There's so much more to the hydrant than just mindlessly launching it

These are good points, as well.

You don't NEED hydrant if it won't help in a MU.

 

[Nu~]

Sapling doesn't bother me much so far. Plus he can remove the hydrant easily if its placed somewhere he doesn't like.

I think you folks may have missed my point though.

Some characters are very resistant to having the hydrant launched at them. Some characters also might be more easily harrassed from above with down B and I wouldn't want to have to launch it every time I want to re-position it as it could be dangerous vs reflectors or characters that launch it better.

Dire Hydrant trades off some reward for the removal of some dangerous counterplay to hydrant imo. Definitely worth looking into.

I love fighting people who can launch my hydrant better. Makes my job easier.
We can sit behind it and just punish their cooldown. Dire hydrant offers nothing valuable except for removing minor risks.

It also takes away a lot of our versatility and stage control.
Definitely not worth it imo

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I think adapting playstyle and habits is a better solution than fleeing to a Hydrant without the option.

Opponents launch Hydrants?
Set it behind you and let the spurts help you.

The On-Fire Hydrants sprurts act as a wall while you throw out aerials
The Default Hydrant spurts can help you rush in a direction while Nairing.

It seems odd to pick a worse Hydrant because you can use less options that way.

By the way, Default Trampoline deserves more sets if we're replacing or adding sets.

 

[Nu~]

I think adapting playstyle and habits is a better solution than fleeing to a Hydrant without the option.

Opponents launch Hydrants?
Set it behind you and let the spurts help you.

The On-Fire Hydrants sprurts act as a wall while you throw out aerials
The Default Hydrant spurts can help you rush in a direction while Nairing.

It seems odd to pick a worse Hydrant because you can use less options that way.

By the way, Default Trampoline deserves more sets if we're replacing or adding sets.

What do you think we should replace?

 

[Firedemon0]

I do not think he was making so much a suggestion of what to replace, but rather that Default Trampoline would be more of a playstyle/moveset improvement then Dire Hydrant.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

What do you think we should replace?

1121 -> 1112 seems like a fair deal.

I do not think he was making so much a suggestion of what to replace, but rather that Default Trampoline would be more of a playstyle/moveset improvement then Dire Hydrant.

Yup

 

[Nu~]

1121 -> 1112 seems like a fair deal.



Yup

@ Firedemon0
Ah, Gotcha.

I think 3121 can be switched to 3111
Power pac jump is best used against those who don't care about an on stage trampoline (villager and jigglypuff)

Plus, I don't think you would want to run lazy fruit againt either of those defensive characters.

 

[Galaxian]

1121 -> 1112 seems like a fair deal.

Yeah I like this too.

 

[Nu~]

Yeah I like this too.

Of course you do

 

[Galaxian]

Of course you do

Well excuse me, I like to use default trampoline.

I've mentioned before, I haven't gotten a chance to use the other trampolines, so maybe that's it, but the option SHOULD be there.

 

[PacMain92201]

After numerous amounts of testing and sets with friends, my sets are 3111, 3131, 1131, or just straight up default. I like default hydrant better mainly because I feel it increases my combo game and mixes perfectly with lazy fruit. At this point, my friends have studied the pac man matchup and they can gimp side b recovery every time. Because of abadango, I'm sure tournament players can do the same as well. Now you only have the meteor tramp to rely on. And I see why abadango didn't want the meteor tramp lol. After a lot of matches with freaky fruit, it just isn't that good. The only fruits that have good uses are strawberry, cherry, orange (if you like Falco lasers), melon, and key if you want a flashy offstage edgeguard which most likely won't happen. People seem to avoid the strawberry pretty easily too. Lazy seems so much better. Galaxian is literally monstrous because it controls so much space and I've gotten +50% combos off of it because I re-catch it when it's winding down (and yes it can break shields). Orange is a good edgeguard tool and it just controls so much space like every other fruit lol. Key kills and is a very viable offstage tool for gimping as well as onstage it works just as well. Lazy Apple kills just like default except you can pick it up easier and perform Apple traps (yes I'm referring to abadango's Apple into up b). Bell still stuns which is one of my favorites fruits solely because of that property since it allows guaranteed kill setups. Especially when you pick up the bell and JC glide toss it for a quick follow up even at lower percentage. And of course the z dropping shenanigans. Lazy fruit helps launch hydrants easier, control space, and lead into potential kill setups. Meteor tramp is still a viable option and it is not that hard to get a meteor with it (preferably after a ledge trump).

 

[Nu~]

After numerous amounts of testing and sets with friends, my sets are 3111, 3131, 1131, or just straight up default. I like default hydrant better mainly because I feel it increases my combo game and mixes perfectly with lazy fruit. At this point, my friends have studied the pac man matchup and they can gimp side b recovery every time. Because of abadango, I'm sure tournament players can do the same as well. Now you only have the meteor tramp to rely on. And I see why abadango didn't want the meteor tramp lol. After a lot of matches with freaky fruit, it just isn't that good. The only fruits that have good uses are strawberry, cherry, orange (if you like Falco lasers), melon, and key if you want a flashy offstage edgeguard which most likely won't happen. People seem to avoid the strawberry pretty easily too. Lazy seems so much better. Galaxian is literally monstrous because it controls so much space and I've gotten +50% combos off of it because I re-catch it when it's winding down (and yes it can break shields). Orange is a good edgeguard tool and it just controls so much space like every other fruit lol. Key kills and is a very viable offstage tool for gimping as well as onstage it works just as well. Lazy Apple kills just like default except you can pick it up easier and perform Apple traps (yes I'm referring to abadango's Apple into up b). Bell still stuns which is one of my favorites fruits solely because of that property since it allows guaranteed kill setups. Especially when you pick up the bell and JC glide toss it for a quick follow up even at lower percentage. And of course the z dropping shenanigans. Lazy fruit helps launch hydrants easier, control space, and lead into potential kill setups. Meteor tramp is still a viable option and it is not that hard to get a meteor with it (preferably after a ledge trump).

It's great that you are having fun with lazy fruit (my personal favorite of the fruits), but I'm gonna have to strongly disagree about your stance on lazy fruit.

People only avoid the strawberry if you stand still and just throw it at them. You have to throw it at them when they can't react in time, which gives you a legitimate grab or smash attack follow up.
The galaxian and apple are certainly not useless. The Apple is an excellent edgeguard, and moves slowly enough initially for you to run behind it. It's also great for water mind games since it turns around when it hits the hydrant water. The galaxian is a great zone breaker and acts as a magic eraser for opposing projectiles. It clears the way of any projectile wall that may trouble you.

I also like using it as a boomerang that the opponent doesn't expect.

You are also grossly underrating the freaky key. When combined with the on fire hydrant, you can burn yourself while charging to drop the key. This gives you a z droppable meteor smash that can lead into follow ups on stage, and death offstage. I would take on fire hydrant to any matchup with a rush down opponent. People stay back when 3 fire spurts are messing up their approach.

I wouldn't count the freaky fruit or on fire hydrant out just yet.

Also, I doubt that someone can gimp your side B every time if you are mixing it up well. If you don't charge your side B, then the opponent can't intercept you and you still gain good distance. I also move my side B in strange ways so that it's hard for the opponent to hit the pellet or me.

@ WeirdChillFever
@Spirst

Tell this man more about the glorious freaky fruit

 

[WeirdChillFever]

After numerous amounts of testing and sets with friends, my sets are 3111, 3131, 1131, or just straight up default. I like default hydrant better mainly because I feel it increases my combo game and mixes perfectly with lazy fruit. At this point, my friends have studied the pac man matchup and they can gimp side b recovery every time. Because of abadango, I'm sure tournament players can do the same as well. Now you only have the meteor tramp to rely on. And I see why abadango didn't want the meteor tramp lol. After a lot of matches with freaky fruit, it just isn't that good. The only fruits that have good uses are strawberry, cherry, orange (if you like Falco lasers), melon, and key if you want a flashy offstage edgeguard which most likely won't happen. People seem to avoid the strawberry pretty easily too. Lazy seems so much better. Galaxian is literally monstrous because it controls so much space and I've gotten +50% combos off of it because I re-catch it when it's winding down (and yes it can break shields). Orange is a good edgeguard tool and it just controls so much space like every other fruit lol. Key kills and is a very viable offstage tool for gimping as well as onstage it works just as well. Lazy Apple kills just like default except you can pick it up easier and perform Apple traps (yes I'm referring to abadango's Apple into up b). Bell still stuns which is one of my favorites fruits solely because of that property since it allows guaranteed kill setups. Especially when you pick up the bell and JC glide toss it for a quick follow up even at lower percentage. And of course the z dropping shenanigans. Lazy fruit helps launch hydrants easier, control space, and lead into potential kill setups. Meteor tramp is still a viable option and it is not that hard to get a meteor with it (preferably after a ledge trump).

http://smashboards.com/threads/erratic-apple-a-small-guide-for-freaky-fruit-now-complete.383826/

 

[Galaxian]

http://smashboards.com/threads/erratic-apple-a-small-guide-for-freaky-fruit-now-complete.383826/

Maaaaan now you got me wanting to use 2132 or 2122.

Freaky Fruit is all about aggresion? Sign me up. I really ought to practice more with it now.

What's the "safety fruit" that's usually your best bet to charge to with FF?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Maaaaan now you got me wanting to use 2132 or 2122.

Freaky Fruit is all about aggresion? Sign me up. I really ought to practice more with it now.

What's the "safety fruit" that's usually your best bet to charge to with FF?

You means after you or the opponent died?
Melon or Galaxian, a bit like with Default.
Melon is crazy in damage and can control space.
Galaxian offers an easy option to throw, catch and throw again.

Orange is good to reset to neutral to go Falco laser for a short time, before going back to decimating.

 

[Nu~]

You means after you or the opponent died?
Melon or Galaxian, a bit like with Default.
Melon is crazy in damage and can control space.
Galaxian offers an easy option to throw, catch and throw again.

Orange is good to reset to neutral to go Falco laser for a short time, before going back to decimating.

Freaky fruit definitely seems like the best fruit against reflectors (The actual good reflectors like skull barrier)
because of how unconventional they are. They are difficult for the opponent to track, and hydrant gushing makes their path even more convoluted.


I maaaay, like them a little more than lazy fruit just because they are better in mid range.
Lazy fruit can't be thrown out in mid range as easily because 3 of them fly so high and so far.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Freaky fruit definitely seems like the best fruit against reflectors (The actual good reflectors like skull barrier)
because of how unconventional they are. They are difficult for the opponent to track, and hydrant gushing makes their path even more convoluted.


I maaaay, like them a little more than lazy fruit just because they are better in mid range.
Lazy fruit can't be thrown out in mid range as easily because 3 of them fly so high and so far.

I actually like to use that to throw Lazy Fruit over the opponent to Fair them in the bouncing pillarfruit after that.

 

[Nu~]

I actually like to use that to throw Lazy Fruit over the opponent to Fair them in the bouncing pillarfruit after that.

If they are trying to approach Pac-Man from the air (bad idea in any case unless you have a good disjointed aerial) or if they are trying zone you out in mid range,then that idea is golden.

However, if the opponent is running at you on the ground I would rather have a freaky cherry to pull them into my grab and reset to neutral.

 

[PacMain92201]

It's great that you are having fun with lazy fruit (my personal favorite of the fruits), but I'm gonna have to strongly disagree about your stance on lazy fruit.

People only avoid the strawberry if you stand still and just throw it at them. You have to throw it at them when they can't react in time, which gives you a legitimate grab or smash attack follow up.
The galaxian and apple are certainly not useless. The Apple is an excellent edgeguard, and moves slowly enough initially for you to run behind it. It's also great for water mind games since it turns around when it hits the hydrant water. The galaxian is a great zone breaker and acts as a magic eraser for opposing projectiles. It clears the way of any projectile wall that may trouble you.

I also like using it as a boomerang that the opponent doesn't expect.

You are also grossly underrating the freaky key. When combined with the on fire hydrant, you can burn yourself while charging to drop the key. This gives you a z droppable meteor smash that can lead into follow ups on stage, and death offstage. I would take on fire hydrant to any matchup with a rush down opponent. People stay back when 3 fire spurts are messing up their approach.

I wouldn't count the freaky fruit or on fire hydrant out just yet.

Also, I doubt that someone can gimp your side B every time if you are mixing it up well. If you don't charge your side B, then the opponent can't intercept you and you still gain good distance. I also move my side B in strange ways so that it's hard for the opponent to hit the pellet or me.

@ WeirdChillFever
@Spirst

Tell this man more about the glorious freaky fruit

Yeah I think it's just because I haven't clicked with freaky fruit yet. And you disagree with my stance on freaky fruit you meant to say right? I've experimented with the customs for a good amount now and I know about the z droppable key. I haven't tried it out in a match yet because I figured it takes too long to set up. And yeah I should be mixing up my recovery a bit more lol. I still find the default trampoline more useful and abadango has actually been in the lab with a new red trampoline trick: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yi2zCi54ASg
I wish I could see our top pac man players like kool aid and abadango go to custom tournaments so I can see how they use pac man's customs. But yeah thanks for the feedback. I'm definitely going to be testing around more with freaky fruit

 

[Froggy]

Dragontamer EDIT: Please be more mindful of your choice of words from now on. Criticism is welcome, but open disdain is not. I've edited your post to calm it down a bit.

So these are the finals custom sets for Pacman at Evo.

1 1 3 2
1 1 3 1
1 1 2 2
1 1 2 1
2 1 3 2
2 1 3 1
2 1 2 2
3 1 3 1
3 1 3 2
3 1 2 1

I personally don't care for the meteor trampoline, but I do see its advantages. As dificult as it may be, getting someone buried is a great advantage and the threat is great for stage contro But what on earth is the rational for so much of the Power Pac jump? (number 2 up b). The move is useless, the only advantage it offers over the default trampoline is additional height on the first bounce (the bounce isn't even as high as he second bounce of the default trampoline) the additional damage on the move isn't very helpful since most of the hits you'll get of the trampoline is defensively out of shield(the damage difference is negligible anyways), which leads me to my biggest gripe about the move

IT LEAVES PACMAN VULNERABLE if your opponent is hit with it, or worse they block it, you have nothing on the ground impeding them from running up to you and hitting you, it esentially becomes a hit or miss move where the risk outweighs the reward since the damage for hitting them is likely less than the damage you'll recieve when they punish you. To think there is not a single custom set that uses the default UP b baffles me. really?

 

[Nu~]

So these are the finals custom sets for Pacman at Evo and I have to ask, did you guys really agree to this?

1 1 3 2
1 1 3 1
1 1 2 2
1 1 2 1
2 1 3 2
2 1 3 1
2 1 2 2
3 1 3 1
3 1 3 2
3 1 2 1

I would have assumed this was created by top tier mains who are weak against Pacman want to sabotage us. I understand that no custom set can satisfy everyone but this is just stupid.

I personally don't care for the meteor trampoline, but I do see its advantages. As dificult as it may be, getting someone buried is a great advantage and the threat is great for stage contro But what on earth is the rational for so much of the Power Pac jump? (number 2 up b). The move is useless, the only advantage it offers over the default trampoline is additional height on the first bounce (the bounce isn't even as high as he second bounce of the default trampoline) the additional damage on the move isn't very helpful since most of the hits you'll get of the trampoline is defensively out of shield(the damage difference is negligible anyways), which leads me to my biggest gripe about the move

IT LEAVES PACMAN VULNERABLE if your opponent is hit with it, or worse they block it, you have nothing on the ground impeding them from running up to you and hitting you, it esentially becomes a hit or miss move where the risk outweighs the reward since the damage for hitting them is likely less than the damage you'll recieve when they punish you. To think there is not a single custom set that uses the default UP b baffles me. really?

What were you guys thinking?

Don't start off with a condescending tone.

Now, we chose power pac jump because it can't be gimped as easily as the original (this will matter in the future)
and some opponents just don't care about the on stage trampoline (jigglypuff, rosa, shiek, etc...)
It also has combo and kill potential so we found it more useful.

But really? Call us idiots?
That is incredibly disrespectful

 

[BSP]

IT LEAVES PACMAN VULNERABLE if your opponent is hit with it, or worse they block it, you have nothing on the ground impeding them from running up to you and hitting you, it esentially becomes a hit or miss move where the risk outweighs the reward since the damage for hitting them is likely less than the damage you'll recieve when they punish you.

Froggy is being a bit aggressive, but I said the same exact thing about PPJ.

PPJ can't be blocked if you use it on top of them though.

When we can update the sets again, we can fix it. We didn't look into Meteor's downsides enough. I didn't realize it only does 3% from Pac-Man hitting people, heavily reducing its shield busting utility. Not a straight upgrade.

I've said why I don't like PPJ much, and with Villager no longer being able to pocket trampoline, I (note: me. My style) see very little reason to use it.

While we're on the subject, default being easier to gimp is up for debate too.

PPJ wins in terms of most height in the shortest amount of time for sure, but that advantage doesn't matter if the opponent is already ready to/ is edgeguarding you. Unlike default, if you get meteored out of PPJ you're dead.

Default takes a bit longer to match or exceed the height of the other two. In that time, the opponent could make it over to you and pull off the edgeguard. On the plus side, you are meteor proof with default until bounce 3 is used.

Default's third jump can and should be stolen at high level, but the second one is still pretty big. If you're out of range for default's second jump to make it, if Froggy's right, PPJ wouldn't make it either.

 

[Nu~]

Froggy is being a bit aggressive, but I said the same exact thing about PPJ.

PPJ can't be blocked if you use it on top of them though.

When we can update the sets again, we can fix it. We didn't look into Meteor's downsides enough. I didn't realize it only does 3% from Pac-Man hitting people, heavily reducing its shield busting utility. Not a straight upgrade.

I've said why I don't like PPJ much, and with Villager no longer being able to pocket trampoline, I see very little reason to use it.

His reasoning may be sound (half way) but I do not tolerate disrespect. He just came in and treated us as if we were all morons and disenfranchised any uses we may have found for it. As if he was the high arbiter.

I do agree that it isn't as useful as we once thought, and that meteor trampoline isn't a direct upgrade, but I will not be talked down to.
I thank you for not acting like a jerk about it.

I still believe that meteor trampoline deserves a spot, but I think next time we should fit the default trampoline into our custom sets.

 

[BSP]

I still believe that meteor trampoline deserves a spot, but I think next time we should fit the default trampoline into our custom sets.

Oh believe me, I'm not trying to go extremist here. Each move has its strengths and weaknesses, and with 10 sets, I think every move can see at least one slot.

Except maybe dire hydrant. The only use I can see for that is if you are extremely scared of the opponent hitting the hydrant back at you immediately, or too quickly on the ground for you to do something about it. If you're playing doubles and you want to eliminate the chance of your hydrant being used against your partner, Dire could be useful. Otherwise, eh.

Edit: and the side Bs. Maybe distant, but that's niche at best, and you lose some of the little KO power we've got.

 

[Galaxian]

Oh believe me, I'm not trying to go extremist here. Each move has its strengths and weaknesses, and with 10 sets, I think every move can see at least one slot.

Except maybe dire hydrant. The only use I can see for that is if you are extremely scared of the opponent hitting the hydrant back at you immediately, or too quickly on the ground for you to do something about it.

Maybe not the side-B customs too, they're all kind of ehhh.

Distant Power Pellet is kind of okay. Enticing is just..bad.

 

[NimbusSpark]

I do agree that it isn't as useful as we once thought, and that meteor trampoline isn't a direct upgrade, but I will not be talked down to.
I thank you for not acting like a jerk about it.

I still believe that meteor trampoline deserves a spot, but I think next time we should fit the default trampoline into our custom sets.

I personally must agree that not including Standard Trampoline was certainly a mistake on our behalf.
In my opinion, I see Pac's three Up-Specials as a triangle, where you have to choose two of of three choices, and those two choices mark what special is reccomended for you to use.
In this case, it's K.O Ability, Recovery and Stage Control.
To sum this up -
Standard Trampoline - Recovery, Stage Control.
Power Pac Jump - K.O Ability, Recovery.
Meteor Trampoline - K.O Ability, Stage Control.
The main problem with Pac and this custom specials issue is the large array of 'useful' sets, thus creating confusion. After all, we have 3 Bonus Fruits, 3 Trampolines and 2 Hydrants to choose from. That essentially means 17 different custom sets that contain viable moves (not including the stock 1111, obviously), and around 41% of them are forced to be excluded for competitive play.
Next time we have the chance to remake the custom sets, lets do it with more intelligence, shall we?

 

[Froggy]

Don't start off with a condescending tone, especially when your Pac-Man needs a tremendous amount of work.

Now, we chose power pac jump because it can't be gimped as easily as the original (this will matter in the future)
and some opponents just don't care about the on stage trampoline (jigglypuff, rosa, shiek, etc...)
It also has combo and kill potential so we found it more useful.

But really? Call us idiots?
How considerate of you.

do you want to play tonight

Don't start off with a condescending tone.

Now, we chose power pac jump because it can't be gimped as easily as the original (this will matter in the future)
and some opponents just don't care about the on stage trampoline (jigglypuff, rosa, shiek, etc...)
It also has combo and kill potential so we found it more useful.

But really? Call us idiots?
That is incredibly disrespectful

You want to play me online and see how much work my Pacman needs? My friend code is right beneath my avatar, anytime you're ready. I am so serious right now.

Now while it is true it PPJ can't be gimped as easily as the default, the trade off is a huge amount of recovery; PPJ greatly reduces the length from which yo can recover, moreover (and BSP touched on this a little bit) Pacman's default recover isn't particularly gimp-able to begin with. He has a second recovery move all together, making his recover not so predictable. Given how much recovery he gets with the default trampoline, more so than perhaps every other character except villager, you can adjust when to use your up or side b if you see your opponent attempting an off stage edge guard.

Pacman cannot be spiked from his default up B unless he has used his third jump as the trampoline will prop him back up, hell it's even difficult to stage spike him a lot of the time because the trampoline will catch him when he is propelled from the stage at a diagonal angle. If I remember correctly the top of Pacman(his mouth) even has some level of invincibility on start up. So given how versatile his recovery is how does it make sense to give so much emphasis on being gimped?

The characters who do ignore the trampoline are a handful while for the rest of the cast it's a hindrance so thats a moot point. I really hope that wasn't a serious consideration when these custom sets were being made.

I didn't mean to be rude and I apologize for that but I think you've really screwed over a lot of Pacman players with this. You guys really dropped the ball with this thing.

 

[BSP]

I've got time to kill, so let me put forth what I think our next changes should be.

Trampoline review. All of the trampolines are unblockable and undodgeable if Pac-Man uses them on top of the opponent.

Default: 7% when used for shield busting purposes. Leaves a trampoline behind for cover in case you miss. On stage, it will bounce people up, and anyone who touches a red trampoline will go into helpless. For recovery, it gives 3 jumps, each increasing in height. The trampoline will asave Pac-Man from meteor smashes until the 3rd bounce is used. However, opponents can steal the 3rd jump, so Pac-Man should die if he needs it, and it takes more time for Pac-Man to get higher with default. Default's second jump goes higher than PPJ and Meteor's highest bounces. Biggest drawback for this one is time needed to access recovery potential.

Power Pac-Jump: 7% when used for shield busting, but should be considered as an air combo finisher with its decent knockback. The trampoline does not stick around, meaning Pac-Man is more open if he misses, and he can be meteored out of it when recovering. It's jump also does not go as high as default's second bounce. On the plus side, this trampoline provides the most height in the shortest amount of time, and that small amount of time could very well be the difference between life and death. Additionally, since it does not stick around, you can consider using it in doubles so that your up B's will not hinder your partner.

Meteor Trampoline: 3% ( ) when used for shield busting and sticks around. As stage control, it's more dangerous than default because it will bury people on the fourth bounce, while still preventing rolls and the like. Another plus side it has for stage control is that since its jumps decrease in height, Pac-Man won't get launched sky high if he is forced into it. When the trampoline is bounced on in the air, it produces a disjointed hitbox with decent range that meteors. On the fourth bounce, the trampoline will meteor anyone who touches it. As an attack, meteor tramp is a quite a threat, giving Pac-Man a meteor smash. Burying people can lead to KO confirms with smash attacks.

It is arguably the weakest recovering trampoline though. It gives 3 bounces that decrease in height. The first bounce is a bit higher than default trampoline's first, but it is shorter than anything else. On the fourth bounce, Pac-Man will get meteored. While in most cases this leads to certain death, at lower percents and against a wall, Pac-Man can exploit this to give himself infinite recovery, in theory. When the trampoline meteors him, he can DI toward a wall and wall jump tech. The trampoline restores his double jump and side B use, so he should be able to make it back. However, this won't work if the opponent takes the fourth hit and does this for themselves, or it they meteor Pac-Man after he techs.

@ NimbusSpark sums this up well. Default for Stage Control and Recovery; PPJ for attacking and recovery ; Meteor for Stage Control and Attacking.

Hydrant review:

Fire Hydrant: Does 9% dropped and 13% tumbling. It will KO the earliest as a dropped projectile. It shoots our water that is harmless, but has a lot of applications. It can be used to boost Pac-Man's dashes, make grabs safer, gush fruits, alter fruit trajectory, delay hydrant launches...there are a lot.

On Fire Hydrant: Does 6% dropped and 15% tumbling. It will KO the earliest when launched. It shoots flames instead of water, and does an additional round of them compared to default. The flames do damage and can KO if the victim is close to the hydrant when hit. The flames do not affect Pac-Man's fruits or Power Pellet. Pac-Man can use the flames to hit himself, allowing him to get fruits like Freaky Key and Apple in hand.

Dire Hydrant: Does 9% and explodes on contact with something or after a set amount of time. The explosion has awful KO potential. The biggest strength of this hydrant is that it can't be used against you in any way, and its cool down will always be short because it leaves. However, you lose lots of applications the other fire hydrants provide.

Here are our current sets.

1 1 3 2 ; 1 1 3 1 ; 1 1 2 2 ; 1 1 2 1 ; 2 1 3 2 ; 2 1 3 1 ; 2 1 2 2 ; 3 1 3 1 ; 3 1 3 2 ; 3 1 2 1

My proposition: 1112 ; 1131 ; 1132 ; 1122/1121 ; 2132 ; 2112 ; 3131 ; 3132 ; 3111 ; 1123 (Doubles)
4 sets with default trampoline (counting 1111), 5 with meteor, 2 with PPJ. The yellow sets are ones I think are must haves. Pink, I'm not sure about at all. Meteor and On Fire having their own sets is justified because they both can make big impacts by themselves. 2132 is just a good trap setup. Pac-Man has a LOT of potential play styles and options. We can't capture them all, so narrowing down is tough.

I don't see why Freaky and Fire Hydrant should be together. Most of the freaky fruits can't be held in hand to be gushed, and it's probably pretty hard to KO confirm off of a gushed cherry or strawberry (water pushing you too on top of the normal difficulty). I will admit that I don't use freaky much, so maybe I'm mistaken.

With Villager not being able to pocket trampoline anymore, I just don't see much use for PPJ except as a niche air combo finisher. IIRC, its KO potential from the ground isn't that much better than default trampoline's. Even the, I value the safety that default and meteor provide when using up B for shield busting more, as neutral is the most important and frequent state of any match. However, as Pacman9 pointed out, windboxes are everywhere in the customs meta, so....


1122 -> 1112 ; strength and versatility of BF, with On Fire's better anti rushdown properties. When you don't have time to set up fruit gushing shenanigans and need more threatening control, this is your set to handle relentless rushdown. Personally, I don't see why you're taking On Fire to begin with unless it's to help contain rushdown. If this is the case, I don't think giving up default trampoline's safety when shield busting is a good idea.

1121 -> 1123 ; I would use this set for doubles. Dire hydrant can't hurt your partner unless you're dumb about it, and PPJ won't linger to mess them up either.

3121 -> 3112 or 3111 ; Lazy is best for setups and control, right? It you want either, default or meteor is better than PPJ, and there's a set like this for meteor.

2131 -> 2112: Alright, why Freaky with default hydrant? Freaky Apple, Orange, Bell, and Key can't be put into Pac-Man's hand with this combination through conventional means. Is gushing freaky Strawberry, Galaxian, or Cherry worth a whole slot? I don't think so, and since 2132 is a set, I'd rather see Freaky and On Fire together with default trampoline.

 

[Nu~]

do you want to play tonight


You want to play me online and see how much work my Pacman needs? My friend code is right beneath my avatar, anytime you're ready. I am so serious right now.

Dragontamer Edits: Lets not get censor-bypass going in the heat of conversation. I'll leave the personal remarks up for historical purpose, but I am not fond of the direction this conversation is going.

The reason why I deleted that part of my post was because I knew it would be misinterpreted. My point was that you aren't the best around, so I don't understand what gives you the right to talk down to us (even if you were the best, there is no excuse for inconsideration and condescension)
Judging by the hostility of your first post, I had a feeling that you would reply this way, so I deleted it.

Sure, I'll play you later when I'm not busy, but It certainly won't be to prove "who is the best". That is pointless, and doesn't move us forward in any way.

Now on to the big picture.

Now while it is true it PPJ can't be gimped as easily as the default, the trade off is a huge amount of recovery; PPJ greatly reduces the length from which yo can recover, moreover (and BSP touched on this a little bit) Pacman's default recover isn't particularly gimp-able to begin with. He has a second recovery move all together, making his recover not so predictable. Given how much recovery he gets with the default trampoline, more so than perhaps every other character except villager, you can adjust when to use your up or side b if you see your opponent attempting an off stage edge guard.

The trampoline is easily gimpable. Opponents can simply jump on your trampoline after your second bounce. If you don't make it back with the second, you just died.

The side B is gimpable as well. Every character can attack your pellet to eliminate your recovery option. Hell, some characters can just shoot it, reflect it, or pocket it. It is not super safe at high levels of play. People will start to realize this, and it is not a good idea to bank on the ignorance of our opponent. This is terrible for the long term. Please stop treating our recovery as if it's the second best in the game. We will get gimped. It is great, but not as golden as you want it to be.

Pacman cannot be spiked from his default up B unless he has used his third jump as the trampoline will prop him back up, hell it's even difficult to stage spike him a lot of the time because the trampoline will catch him when he is propelled from the stage at a diagonal angle. If I remember correctly the top of Pacman(his mouth) even has some level of invincibility on start up. So given how versatile his recovery is how does it make sense to give so much emphasis on being gimped?

What you fail to realize is how vulnerable we are in the way down. Yeah, we can't get meteor smashed, but in a customs meta, everyone can blow us away with windboxes while we take our sweet *** time recovering. Windboxes ruin side B as well. Greninja had a field day with our recovery options.
(my fights with FullMoon have taught me well)

Power pac jump is a quick recovery option with just a little less recovery than the second jump in the default. This gives us a safer recovery in general. It's fast enough to avoid windboxes in time, and gives us the same amount of invincibility during the move. We don't have to worry about people destroying us on the way down.

Please try to think about the future of our meta. Tunnel vision will not get us far.

The characters who do ignore the trampoline are a handful while for the rest of the cast it's a hindrance so thats a moot point. I really hope that wasn't a serious consideration when these custom sets were being made.

Characters that do ignore the trampoline, also have better ways to disrupt our recovery.

Greninja approaches from the air, and can ruin our recovery options

Villager used to be able to pocket our trampoline

Jigglypuff could come off stage at any time to hit our power pellet, or bair us on the way down from our Up B (it isn't smart to rely on "maybe" hitting the trampoline after a stage spike)

Granted, it isn't a large number, but it's still important enough to take into consideration. Gimps are no joke.

I didn't mean to be rude and I apologize for that but I think you've really screwed over a lot of Pacman players with this. You guys really dropped the ball with this thing.

Just keep enforcing your opinion on us pal.
But sure, I'll accept your apology.
I will admit that the power pac jump shouldn't have taken up every default up B spot (I actually wanted default in at least one set back then, and now) but I will not agree with your faulty reasoning on why power pac jump shouldn't have even been considered.

 

[BSP]

Another thing: you can't just ignore grounded trampolines. Effectiveness varies of course, but at the least, it eliminates the option of the opponent running in and doing something to us while we're right behind it.

We should be teching 90% of stage spikes.

 

[dragontamer]

Work to de-escalate the conversation immediately. Debate of Pac-Man's customs should continue, but stop the personal remarks.

EDIT: I've edited the root post to calm it down a bit. Please be mindful of language and connotations. I understand that @ Froggy was using disdain as a rhetorical device, so I'm leaving the majority of the post up unedited. But @ Froggy , please be more mindful of your tone when making an initial post.

EDIT2: As usual, any issues with my moderation style belong in the Pac-Mod topic. Either message me personally, or discuss the issue publicly in the PacMod topic. Otherwise, continue the Power-Jump customs discussion.

 

[Neutricity]

Hey all, I just got back from a tournament and I can honestly say that Lazy Fruit is not worth it.
Yes, the zoning is phenomenal, but you're giving up stronger fruits that kills faster. The worst thing is when you toss a fruit and it misses. Welp, survive without it until it vanishes. And I want to thank the Smash God because my opponents didn't bother grabbing the weak thing.

I also have a better opinion of Meteor Trampoline, but I will say that is match up dependent.
Example: You're recovering low. You are Pac-Man so you will make it back to ledge, but you may have to side-b to do so. That situation is bad because getting stage spiked or just hit downward is bad because trampoline can't save.


TL;DR
Lazy Fruit = Great Zoning, but too weak and dodge-able.
Meteor Trampoline = Be wary of characters with a little off stage game.

 

[Zage]

I'm honestly surprised that 1112 isn't one of our movesets.

 

[Bulby]

It's been a while since I jumped in this thread, so let me share a few thoughts about the trampoline.

First off, I feel like we need to have default trampoline in our sets at least somewhere. If I'm in a customs tournament and I want default, I have to go default for everything, which isn't always the best situation (or maybe I should just pick a better character hue hue hue).

If you asked me before, I would've said definitely go for default trampoline against characters who can easily gimp Side B outside of the universal strategy of hitting the pellet (ie. Villager pocket, Rosalina Down B). But I've come to realize that because we can use Side B to recover anywhere off the stage, assuming everyone will always gimp the Side B is overestimating people's abilities to be honest, especially as we can do some micro-movement with where the pellet stops. So with this, it seems like Meteor Trampoline is perfectly fine for recovering, outside of, for example, getting hit by a Fox down smash with no 2nd jump available. I know I just said we need Up B 1 somewhere, and it would be nice to have it for a safety set, just in case the struggle is real. Plus the fact that Up B 1 doesn't go so high is actually beneficial when using it as an on stage unblockable.

Just quickly on the topic if Villager, Meteor Trampoline seems ridiculous if we can get Villager off stage and force him to recover with Up B. Even if it's the exploding balloons, does it seem like spiking him would be super easy? Just a thought.

Now what I don't like is Up B 2. My biggest gripe with it is, and I think someone mentioned this earlier, if that if you miss using it as an unblockable, you're going to get punished on the way down. It certainly has it's uses, such as a kill option(?) on high platforms, but I feel like with the possibility of missing the unblockable, it might not be worth it. I've used it before and sometimes the opponent doesn't get sucked into the trampoline, and just blocks Pac rising up. It's a bit of a shame, but for safety I think 1 + 3 are the better options overall. I would've agreed with saying 2 would be good against those who don't care about Trampoline on stage (Villager, Jiggs), but I still feel the risk of missing is worse. And it never hurts to have one on stage, regardless of character. And now that Villager can't pocket the other Trampolines, it's uses seem far less enticing. To be honest, this might just come down to personal preference, so I'm not saying delete all Up B 2 sets. Just perhaps we could do with some Up B 1 representation.

TL;DR - Need Up B 1 in some custom sets for safety, Up B 2's uses seem less potent than the others, Up B 3 is good enough for recovery.

On a side note, Abadango's Trampoline tech with Meteor seems like it could be ridiculous. Less bouncing time set up, and spike hitbox underneath while setting up. Could cover air dodge recovery with aerials or fruit, and drop downs with Hydrant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi2zCi54ASg

 

[Firedemon0]

I'm still confused by the hostility and people getting upset that no sets have default trampoline. For most of the project, 1112 was one of the set items. The last few days, where people really should of spoke up for it, did not. I personally find 1132 and 1122 to be amazing sets.

There seems to be an extremely high bias that PPJ is questionable.

It is great anti air attack that comes out immediately and beats most aerial attacks.

It is great for avoiding gimp attempts.

It kills floaties off the top at ~130%

It combos great with Freaky Strawberry

It still is a shield/spotdodge buster

The biggest fear people have that you will be chased after using it? Why are you using it in those match-ups OOS? SH nair is a superior out of shield option in those applied pressure. You also can bait a chase to ledge and fall behind them instead. Side B is much more dangerous to use on stage by comparison. The same shortcomings are shared by all the trampolines including default.

I stand by the sets, there was plenty of time to speak up. I would concede that 1112 should be available as an option for the next round, but it was previously, for a long time, but no one defended it those final days. I would take the salt if it was a last minute change, but the final discussions were over 3 days.

Ninja edit: I also posted my top ten sets previously

1112
1121
2132
2112
1132
2121
3121
3111
3132
3112

 

[Nu~]

Next time we have the chance to remake the custom sets, lets do it with more intelligence, shall we?

Yeah, because we totally did this mindlessly. It's not like we actually thought this through as a community while the majority of those complaining now were no where near this thread to help out. Our ideas hold just as much water as yours. Don't assume that we just threw stuff together.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

It was obvious from the start that Meteor Trampoline was going to rule most sets (Partly because of me).

Complaining afterwards won't help.

 

[NimbusSpark]

Yeah, because we totally did this mindlessly. It's not like we actually thought this through as a community while the majority of those complaining now were no where near this thread to help out. Our ideas hold just as much water as yours. Don't assume that we just threw stuff together.

I never said that we did this mindlessly. I said that we should do it with more intelligence - We could have already been making smart choices from the start of when custom sets where being chosen, I just stated that we should work a bit harder with these important desicions. Everyone makes mistakes.
And if I did insult you or anyone else, I apoligise. It was unintended in that case.