WeirdChillFever
Smash Hero
You shouldn't even pick Dire Hydrant against (Customs) Villager since the Non-Dire Hydrant can be placed on the Sapling.
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I think the solution to that is to not launch the Hydrant instead of picking the inferior version.
These are good points, as well.There's so much more to the hydrant than just mindlessly launching it
I love fighting people who can launch my hydrant better. Makes my job easier.Sapling doesn't bother me much so far. Plus he can remove the hydrant easily if its placed somewhere he doesn't like.
I think you folks may have missed my point though.
Some characters are very resistant to having the hydrant launched at them. Some characters also might be more easily harrassed from above with down B and I wouldn't want to have to launch it every time I want to re-position it as it could be dangerous vs reflectors or characters that launch it better.
Dire Hydrant trades off some reward for the removal of some dangerous counterplay to hydrant imo. Definitely worth looking into.
What do you think we should replace?I think adapting playstyle and habits is a better solution than fleeing to a Hydrant without the option.
Opponents launch Hydrants?
Set it behind you and let the spurts help you.
The On-Fire Hydrants sprurts act as a wall while you throw out aerials
The Default Hydrant spurts can help you rush in a direction while Nairing.
It seems odd to pick a worse Hydrant because you can use less options that way.
By the way, Default Trampoline deserves more sets if we're replacing or adding sets.
1121 -> 1112 seems like a fair deal.What do you think we should replace?
YupI do not think he was making so much a suggestion of what to replace, but rather that Default Trampoline would be more of a playstyle/moveset improvement then Dire Hydrant.
@ Firedemon01121 -> 1112 seems like a fair deal.
Yup
Yeah I like this too.1121 -> 1112 seems like a fair deal.
Of course you doYeah I like this too.
Well excuse me, I like to use default trampoline.Of course you do
It's great that you are having fun with lazy fruit (my personal favorite of the fruits), but I'm gonna have to strongly disagree about your stance on lazy fruit.After numerous amounts of testing and sets with friends, my sets are 3111, 3131, 1131, or just straight up default. I like default hydrant better mainly because I feel it increases my combo game and mixes perfectly with lazy fruit. At this point, my friends have studied the pac man matchup and they can gimp side b recovery every time. Because of abadango, I'm sure tournament players can do the same as well. Now you only have the meteor tramp to rely on. And I see why abadango didn't want the meteor tramp lol. After a lot of matches with freaky fruit, it just isn't that good. The only fruits that have good uses are strawberry, cherry, orange (if you like Falco lasers), melon, and key if you want a flashy offstage edgeguard which most likely won't happen. People seem to avoid the strawberry pretty easily too. Lazy seems so much better. Galaxian is literally monstrous because it controls so much space and I've gotten +50% combos off of it because I re-catch it when it's winding down (and yes it can break shields). Orange is a good edgeguard tool and it just controls so much space like every other fruit lol. Key kills and is a very viable offstage tool for gimping as well as onstage it works just as well. Lazy Apple kills just like default except you can pick it up easier and perform Apple traps (yes I'm referring to abadango's Apple into up b). Bell still stuns which is one of my favorites fruits solely because of that property since it allows guaranteed kill setups. Especially when you pick up the bell and JC glide toss it for a quick follow up even at lower percentage. And of course the z dropping shenanigans. Lazy fruit helps launch hydrants easier, control space, and lead into potential kill setups. Meteor tramp is still a viable option and it is not that hard to get a meteor with it (preferably after a ledge trump).
http://smashboards.com/threads/erratic-apple-a-small-guide-for-freaky-fruit-now-complete.383826/After numerous amounts of testing and sets with friends, my sets are 3111, 3131, 1131, or just straight up default. I like default hydrant better mainly because I feel it increases my combo game and mixes perfectly with lazy fruit. At this point, my friends have studied the pac man matchup and they can gimp side b recovery every time. Because of abadango, I'm sure tournament players can do the same as well. Now you only have the meteor tramp to rely on. And I see why abadango didn't want the meteor tramp lol. After a lot of matches with freaky fruit, it just isn't that good. The only fruits that have good uses are strawberry, cherry, orange (if you like Falco lasers), melon, and key if you want a flashy offstage edgeguard which most likely won't happen. People seem to avoid the strawberry pretty easily too. Lazy seems so much better. Galaxian is literally monstrous because it controls so much space and I've gotten +50% combos off of it because I re-catch it when it's winding down (and yes it can break shields). Orange is a good edgeguard tool and it just controls so much space like every other fruit lol. Key kills and is a very viable offstage tool for gimping as well as onstage it works just as well. Lazy Apple kills just like default except you can pick it up easier and perform Apple traps (yes I'm referring to abadango's Apple into up b). Bell still stuns which is one of my favorites fruits solely because of that property since it allows guaranteed kill setups. Especially when you pick up the bell and JC glide toss it for a quick follow up even at lower percentage. And of course the z dropping shenanigans. Lazy fruit helps launch hydrants easier, control space, and lead into potential kill setups. Meteor tramp is still a viable option and it is not that hard to get a meteor with it (preferably after a ledge trump).
Maaaaan now you got me wanting to use 2132 or 2122.
You means after you or the opponent died?Maaaaan now you got me wanting to use 2132 or 2122.
Freaky Fruit is all about aggresion? Sign me up. I really ought to practice more with it now.
What's the "safety fruit" that's usually your best bet to charge to with FF?
Freaky fruit definitely seems like the best fruit against reflectors (The actual good reflectors like skull barrier)You means after you or the opponent died?
Melon or Galaxian, a bit like with Default.
Melon is crazy in damage and can control space.
Galaxian offers an easy option to throw, catch and throw again.
Orange is good to reset to neutral to go Falco laser for a short time, before going back to decimating.
I actually like to use that to throw Lazy Fruit over the opponent to Fair them in the bouncing pillarfruit after that.Freaky fruit definitely seems like the best fruit against reflectors (The actual good reflectors like skull barrier)
because of how unconventional they are. They are difficult for the opponent to track, and hydrant gushing makes their path even more convoluted.
I maaaay, like them a little more than lazy fruit just because they are better in mid range.
Lazy fruit can't be thrown out in mid range as easily because 3 of them fly so high and so far.
If they are trying to approach Pac-Man from the air (bad idea in any case unless you have a good disjointed aerial) or if they are trying zone you out in mid range,then that idea is golden.I actually like to use that to throw Lazy Fruit over the opponent to Fair them in the bouncing pillarfruit after that.
Yeah I think it's just because I haven't clicked with freaky fruit yet. And you disagree with my stance on freaky fruit you meant to say right? I've experimented with the customs for a good amount now and I know about the z droppable key. I haven't tried it out in a match yet because I figured it takes too long to set up. And yeah I should be mixing up my recovery a bit more lol. I still find the default trampoline more useful and abadango has actually been in the lab with a new red trampoline trick: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yi2zCi54ASgIt's great that you are having fun with lazy fruit (my personal favorite of the fruits), but I'm gonna have to strongly disagree about your stance on lazy fruit.
People only avoid the strawberry if you stand still and just throw it at them. You have to throw it at them when they can't react in time, which gives you a legitimate grab or smash attack follow up.
The galaxian and apple are certainly not useless. The Apple is an excellent edgeguard, and moves slowly enough initially for you to run behind it. It's also great for water mind games since it turns around when it hits the hydrant water. The galaxian is a great zone breaker and acts as a magic eraser for opposing projectiles. It clears the way of any projectile wall that may trouble you.
I also like using it as a boomerang that the opponent doesn't expect.
You are also grossly underrating the freaky key. When combined with the on fire hydrant, you can burn yourself while charging to drop the key. This gives you a z droppable meteor smash that can lead into follow ups on stage, and death offstage. I would take on fire hydrant to any matchup with a rush down opponent. People stay back when 3 fire spurts are messing up their approach.
I wouldn't count the freaky fruit or on fire hydrant out just yet.
Also, I doubt that someone can gimp your side B every time if you are mixing it up well. If you don't charge your side B, then the opponent can't intercept you and you still gain good distance. I also move my side B in strange ways so that it's hard for the opponent to hit the pellet or me.
@ WeirdChillFever
@Spirst
Tell this man more about the glorious freaky fruit
Don't start off with a condescending tone.So these are the finals custom sets for Pacman at Evo and I have to ask, did you guys really agree to this?
1 1 3 2
1 1 3 1
1 1 2 2
1 1 2 1
2 1 3 2
2 1 3 1
2 1 2 2
3 1 3 1
3 1 3 2
3 1 2 1
I would have assumed this was created by top tier mains who are weak against Pacman want to sabotage us. I understand that no custom set can satisfy everyone but this is just stupid.
I personally don't care for the meteor trampoline, but I do see its advantages. As dificult as it may be, getting someone buried is a great advantage and the threat is great for stage contro But what on earth is the rational for so much of the Power Pac jump? (number 2 up b). The move is useless, the only advantage it offers over the default trampoline is additional height on the first bounce (the bounce isn't even as high as he second bounce of the default trampoline) the additional damage on the move isn't very helpful since most of the hits you'll get of the trampoline is defensively out of shield(the damage difference is negligible anyways), which leads me to my biggest gripe about the move
IT LEAVES PACMAN VULNERABLE if your opponent is hit with it, or worse they block it, you have nothing on the ground impeding them from running up to you and hitting you, it esentially becomes a hit or miss move where the risk outweighs the reward since the damage for hitting them is likely less than the damage you'll recieve when they punish you. To think there is not a single custom set that uses the default UP b baffles me. really?
What were you guys thinking?
Froggy is being a bit aggressive, but I said the same exact thing about PPJ.IT LEAVES PACMAN VULNERABLE if your opponent is hit with it, or worse they block it, you have nothing on the ground impeding them from running up to you and hitting you, it esentially becomes a hit or miss move where the risk outweighs the reward since the damage for hitting them is likely less than the damage you'll recieve when they punish you.
His reasoning may be sound (half way) but I do not tolerate disrespect. He just came in and treated us as if we were all morons and disenfranchised any uses we may have found for it. As if he was the high arbiter.Froggy is being a bit aggressive, but I said the same exact thing about PPJ.
PPJ can't be blocked if you use it on top of them though.
When we can update the sets again, we can fix it. We didn't look into Meteor's downsides enough. I didn't realize it only does 3% from Pac-Man hitting people, heavily reducing its shield busting utility. Not a straight upgrade.
I've said why I don't like PPJ much, and with Villager no longer being able to pocket trampoline, I see very little reason to use it.
Oh believe me, I'm not trying to go extremist here. Each move has its strengths and weaknesses, and with 10 sets, I think every move can see at least one slot.I still believe that meteor trampoline deserves a spot, but I think next time we should fit the default trampoline into our custom sets.
Maybe not the side-B customs too, they're all kind of ehhh.Oh believe me, I'm not trying to go extremist here. Each move has its strengths and weaknesses, and with 10 sets, I think every move can see at least one slot.
Except maybe dire hydrant. The only use I can see for that is if you are extremely scared of the opponent hitting the hydrant back at you immediately, or too quickly on the ground for you to do something about it.
I personally must agree that not including Standard Trampoline was certainly a mistake on our behalf.I do agree that it isn't as useful as we once thought, and that meteor trampoline isn't a direct upgrade, but I will not be talked down to.
I thank you for not acting like a jerk about it.
I still believe that meteor trampoline deserves a spot, but I think next time we should fit the default trampoline into our custom sets.
do you want to play tonightDon't start off with a condescending tone, especially when your Pac-Man needs a tremendous amount of work.
Now, we chose power pac jump because it can't be gimped as easily as the original (this will matter in the future)
and some opponents just don't care about the on stage trampoline (jigglypuff, rosa, shiek, etc...)
It also has combo and kill potential so we found it more useful.
But really? Call us idiots?
How considerate of you.
You want to play me online and see how much work my Pacman needs? My friend code is right beneath my avatar, anytime you're ready. I am so serious right now.Don't start off with a condescending tone.
Now, we chose power pac jump because it can't be gimped as easily as the original (this will matter in the future)
and some opponents just don't care about the on stage trampoline (jigglypuff, rosa, shiek, etc...)
It also has combo and kill potential so we found it more useful.
But really? Call us idiots?
That is incredibly disrespectful
Dragontamer Edits: Lets not get censor-bypass going in the heat of conversation. I'll leave the personal remarks up for historical purpose, but I am not fond of the direction this conversation is going.do you want to play tonight
You want to play me online and see how much work my Pacman needs? My friend code is right beneath my avatar, anytime you're ready. I am so serious right now.
The trampoline is easily gimpable. Opponents can simply jump on your trampoline after your second bounce. If you don't make it back with the second, you just died.Now while it is true it PPJ can't be gimped as easily as the default, the trade off is a huge amount of recovery; PPJ greatly reduces the length from which yo can recover, moreover (and BSP touched on this a little bit) Pacman's default recover isn't particularly gimp-able to begin with. He has a second recovery move all together, making his recover not so predictable. Given how much recovery he gets with the default trampoline, more so than perhaps every other character except villager, you can adjust when to use your up or side b if you see your opponent attempting an off stage edge guard.
What you fail to realize is how vulnerable we are in the way down. Yeah, we can't get meteor smashed, but in a customs meta, everyone can blow us away with windboxes while we take our sweet *** time recovering. Windboxes ruin side B as well. Greninja had a field day with our recovery options.Pacman cannot be spiked from his default up B unless he has used his third jump as the trampoline will prop him back up, hell it's even difficult to stage spike him a lot of the time because the trampoline will catch him when he is propelled from the stage at a diagonal angle. If I remember correctly the top of Pacman(his mouth) even has some level of invincibility on start up. So given how versatile his recovery is how does it make sense to give so much emphasis on being gimped?
Characters that do ignore the trampoline, also have better ways to disrupt our recovery.The characters who do ignore the trampoline are a handful while for the rest of the cast it's a hindrance so thats a moot point. I really hope that wasn't a serious consideration when these custom sets were being made.
Just keep enforcing your opinion on us pal.I didn't mean to be rude and I apologize for that but I think you've really screwed over a lot of Pacman players with this. You guys really dropped the ball with this thing.
Yeah, because we totally did this mindlessly. It's not like we actually thought this through as a community while the majority of those complaining now were no where near this thread to help out. Our ideas hold just as much water as yours. Don't assume that we just threw stuff together.Next time we have the chance to remake the custom sets, lets do it with more intelligence, shall we?
I never said that we did this mindlessly. I said that we should do it with more intelligence - We could have already been making smart choices from the start of when custom sets where being chosen, I just stated that we should work a bit harder with these important desicions. Everyone makes mistakes.Yeah, because we totally did this mindlessly. It's not like we actually thought this through as a community while the majority of those complaining now were no where near this thread to help out. Our ideas hold just as much water as yours. Don't assume that we just threw stuff together.