Oz's Case Study of Self-Improvement

[StoicPhantom]

You had gotten lucky so far, this is to be expected, when you don't have the game. So don't beat yourself up too much, over too high of expectations. Save your pity party for when you get the game, make it to Elite, and then get stonewalled by the same 5 characters. Just get the game as soon as possible so you don't feel like it's your inexperience making you lose.

Acknowledging that you're bad, is definitely the first step to actually getting good. Far too many people, build this self-image of themselves, over meaningless ranks or shiny medals and get mad and ignore anything in reality, that doesn't match that self-image. I see so many people, just in this game's online alone, that beat on people much weaker than them and run away at the first sign of any good player, all to artificially inflate their meaningless rank. People seem to forget that winning is a sign of progress and not the end goal.

Trying to win for the sake of winning, is what leads people to do things, like pull their ethernet cord to mantain their rank/win streak. That may make your numbers look good but players who know, can see your true skill in your play. Don't lose sight of the true goal in becoming a better player and chase after wins, which are the product of being good, not the proof.

Recognizing that you are bad and feeling bad about it, means you have the self-awareness to recognize that you need to improve and that alone, means you are already above a lot of people and can start on the path to getting better. I can emphasize with that frustration because I have been feeling like that recently, fighting certain characters that seem impossible to beat. I have, however, been steadily improving in those match-ups and can consistently beat Inkling and Yoshi now. Marth/Lucina and Cloud are still out of reach currently and Sheik is looming on the horizon, but I am no longer being two and three-stocked by Marth/Lucina or Cloud anymore. It's just a long, frustrating grind, getting there is all.

Zelda herself, is incredibly difficult to be good with and isn't a character you can be good with, only playing on occasion. She's not like, say Chrom, whom my friend made it to Elite with, in less time than my Zelda, simply running around spamming Dancing Blade. Some characters are just faster to learn and get good enough with, that you can focus on your fundamentals quicker than others. I'm seeing parallels with my Smash 4 main Robin, in the more advanced concepts you need to learn in order to do well and be on the same level as others. Zelda and Robin, are characters you need to learn more advanced fundamentals as a requirement to do well, instead of learning them on the way. Other characters will give you a boost at the start, before you need to start having good fundamentals to win. If you don't have the required skills and character knowledge and practice you're going to lose. Smash 4 Sheik was top five but if you didn't know what you were doing with them, you were going to get obliterated fairly easy.

I have faced quite a lot of Zelda's online, that had no idea what to do and tried to just camp in one place and hope their opponent ran into all of their attacks. They lacked the concepts of spacing, neutral, and stage control, that's required to do well with Zelda. As such, it was fairly easy to take the lead quickly before they could adjust and then camp, slowly picking at them and KOing, when the opportunity presented itself. In order to properly control space and play neutral with Zelda, you need to be very familiar with all her tools, which are not easy or straightforward to use. She's precision based and requires lots of practice and experience to know what you need to do, when, and successfully do it without misinputting.

I know it's not your fault, since you don't have the game yet, but I'm sorry to say that you can't realistically expect to do well with Zelda without regular consistent practice. It took me a lot of playing in order to play at a higher level with her. She doesn't share the same playstyle as before so requires relearning how to play her. I'm sure you found out the hard way that night, that her grab combos aren't all there and that aggressively rushing in to grab when you think you have a read, doesn't quite go the same as it used to. Ultimate is a different game and is going to have different ways of going about things than before. You'll need to get used to both Zelda and Ultimate itself right now.

So don't put too high of expectations on yourself quite yet, when you don't currently have access to what you need, in order to be good yet.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Once again, I have to appreciate someone taking the time to type all of that up. Let alone in response to what is basically a whining session.

I managed to get it over it...I realise, ironically, that feeling that way is kind of subconciously telling yourself you will always be that bad player. But, I won't. And this is why it shouldn't matter, anymore. You can't expect to do well in a sport if you don't even have the fitness to do what you actually intend to...

On the flip side, a friend got a Switch and brought it over. I had to stick with Joycons on this, but it's literally far better than nothing. And after a few sessions, I got somewhat of a hang of it. Hopefully, it won't once again sabotage the little muscle memory I was building up on my GC controller. I tried to conciously practice Parrying, with varying success (far better than before, still). I even managed to get a solid amount of "lab" time, in spite of not taking full advantage of it. Tried practicing the OoS, and it seems more natural on the Joycon's buttom scheme.

- I still was kind of not really using Phantom, except it was kind of intentional this time around (I'll get to it).
- I actually got a handful of jump reads to Kick. Apparently switching my main Jump buttom from X to Y, alone, made a massive difference.
- I still suck at U-air.
- Slowly being able to punish directional airdodge away when air-chasing. I just try to go for Dash Attack.
- I've been using a lot more D-air. Honestly, it's not that bad of an idea as an OoS mixup, like you said. It also also sweetspots if you FF from a platform. Could ocassionally combo it into a kick (about 60-80???)
- F-Smash should be able to cover a decent amount of ground, when covering the ledge. Didn't take as much advantage of it until later games.
- Juggling is definitely improving. Half of it is Dash Attack's hitbox being so good at hititng certain blindspots.
- Either I really suck at mashing, or Inkling's roller is a death sentence past 60 or something.
- Labbed D-Throw >D-air at lower to mid percents. It takes a lot of precision (and neutral/center DI) to sweetspot it, but the cool thing is that you're able to act before the animation ends. Played a lot with soft D-air > soft N-air and you might get some extension out of it (like a regrab or anything fast).
- Jab (Jab 1, at least) is honestly not that bad. It can cancel itself into other things, and I use it a lot for that rather than doing the full hits. You put up a small, fast wall and you're not fully comitting to it.

Trying to win for the sake of winning, is what leads people to do things, like pull their ethernet cord to mantain their rank/win streak.

Didn't think there'd actually be anyone lame enough to do that...

 

[Kannazuki]

Get ready to hate yourself when you start having to deal with very speedy characters and trying to get a kill Naryu's love is gonna be your best friend since most players using speedy characters try to blitz you.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Once again, I have to appreciate someone taking the time to type all of that up. Let alone in response to what is basically a whining session.

It just kind of happened and it came out longer than I intended, while somehow going into a mini-rant on the state of competition. I'm glad you managed to get over it and go with a more positive and productive outlook, though.

On the flip side, a friend got a Switch and brought it over. I had to stick with Joycons on this, but it's literally far better than nothing. And after a few sessions, I got somewhat of a hang of it. Hopefully, it won't once again sabotage the little muscle memory I was building up on my GC controller. I tried to conciously practice Parrying, with varying success (far better than before, still). I even managed to get a solid amount of "lab" time, in spite of not taking full advantage of it. Tried practicing the OoS, and it seems more natural on the Joycon's buttom scheme.

Hopefully, when I have access to my pro controller, I also won't have muscle memory issues. Parrying is something I need to practice as well but with the attack canceling that I saw on the front page, that might not be as useful anymore. Admittedly I haven't actually read it yet(I'll do that) so maybe its not as good as it sounds. I too, have an easier time Up-Bing with the joycons, for some reason.

- I actually got a handful of jump reads to Kick. Apparently switching my main Jump buttom from X to Y, alone, made a massive difference.

Since your thumb(well mine does) naturally rests on the A and Y, that's definitely the better way to go. I'm not sure how you even managed to do it with X in the first place.

- I still suck at U-air.

It's difficult to hit and pretty much impossible on fast characters but it still is useful to practice. I find it works best in conjunction with the Phantom in forcing them in the air, then tagging them. It also works really well on characters that have difficulty making it back to the ground and with its huge disjoint you can juggle them as they try to Dair or Down-B back to the stage. I juggled a Gannon from the bottom platform, all the way to the blast zone once. Other than that it requires a read, although occasionally you can catch your opponent landing on the top platform.

- Slowly being able to punish directional airdodge away when air-chasing. I just try to go for Dash Attack.

Dash attack is good period but you can also Up-Smash some longer air-dodges for a bigger punish. Remember you can attack out of a run now and that opens up the possibility, for all sorts of fun stuff.

- I've been using a lot more D-air. Honestly, it's not that bad of an idea as an OoS mixup, like you said. It also also sweetspots if you FF from a platform. Could ocassionally combo it into a kick (about 60-80???)

You can also true combo into Up-B at 50 which might be even better than LK in some situations.

- F-Smash should be able to cover a decent amount of ground, when covering the ledge. Didn't take as much advantage of it until later games.

Yep. It also works well when being chased and out of a dash dance.

- Juggling is definitely improving. Half of it is Dash Attack's hitbox being so good at hititng certain blindspots.

Running Up-Tilt isn't too bad either, in some situations. You can even combo an Up-Air after two Up-Tilts if you're quick and your opponent isn't on the ball. It might true on heavier characters.

- Either I really suck at mashing, or Inkling's roller is a death sentence past 60 or something.

I think you can, if you're really good, at that percentage but I'm pretty bad at it. Roller is just best avoided.

- Labbed D-Throw >D-air at lower to mid percents. It takes a lot of precision (and neutral/center DI) to sweetspot it, but the cool thing is that you're able to act before the animation ends. Played a lot with soft D-air > soft N-air and you might get some extension out of it (like a regrab or anything fast).

I find most opponents DI pretty far for throw combos to land, often from center stage to middle of the bottom platform somehow, but might be something to keep in mind when they don't, as the result of a screw-up or mix-up.

- Jab (Jab 1, at least) is honestly not that bad. It can cancel itself into other things, and I use it a lot for that rather than doing the full hits. You put up a small, fast wall and you're not fully comitting to it.

I need to jab more. I used to do it a lot, until everyone just started hopping all over the stage and ground battles became a thing of the past. Being able to combo from jab definitely sounds intriguing, though.

Didn't think there'd actually be anyone lame enough to do that...

Yup. I hear it's a major problem in Street Fighter V and it's kind of always been a thing in online competitive games. Luckily Ultimate has counter-measures it seems. I accidentally knocked a tray into my ethernet cable, after a loss yesterday and it still counted, so that's a good sign.

Get ready to hate yourself when you start having to deal with very speedy characters and trying to get a kill Naryu's love is gonna be your best friend since most players using speedy characters try to blitz you.

Indeed. Got knocked out of Elite again, after a string of close losses against the likes of Sonic, Lucario, and Marth. They overdid the speed a little, IMO.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Get ready to hate yourself when you start having to deal with very speedy characters and trying to get a kill Naryu's love is gonna be your best friend since most players using speedy characters try to blitz you.

I've been doing pretty well, on that. I used to like playing with Corrin against conventionally speedy characters in Smash 4 (i.e Fox C.Falcon, Sonic, Diddy Kong, etc.). I think it can be a struggle if you try to force the usual Zelda gameplan (or Corrin).

So far, I'm pretty sure I struggle a lot more against certain projectile campy characters. I played a Young Link, today. Heavily limits my mobility, and I have to slowly walk through a wall of projectiles by either spamming somewhat-timed reflectors. Shielding is unreliable because of the shield drop, and you have to be perfect for Parries. May as well try pseudo Wavedashing, next time... My only really fast way is through the air, and it's not like we have amazing options to land on them.


NEWS UPDATE

Spoiler

I don't know what just happened yesterday, but I think I activated some strange Ultra Instinct **** or whatever. It looks I randomly became good for a day, and somehow learned stuff I had no idea I could even do. Like, I could legit Parry ****. Consistently. Even the guy that wins tournaments over here commented on it, with stuff like "you do realise you just took a set from, right?" and that he doesn't understand how I played so well and managed to play so well and somehow did poorly, before.

Part of the "miracle" might be that I got a crapton of playtime the day before, and then yesterday. Had to re-adajust to a new controller (again). As I mentioned, I kind of had to play with Joycons...and then I tried GC again, and my muscle memory completely shifted towards the former. Looks like Joycon will, more than likely, be my staple controller. The plus side, I can now Up-B and do aerials OoS without any effort (namely Kicks). I used to constantly kill myself by accidentally airdodging with the left triggers, given how tiny the thing is.

You won't believe the amount of benefits this have given me. Gotten a ton of kills out of Kicks OoS, alone.

- I got a surprising amount of Parry > L.Kick. Felt extremely good.
- Looks like I use a lot of Up-B for punishes. I try to aim for lag punishes on stuff like projectiles (i.e Young Link). I could definitely afford to be better with these, as I have been punished for it a few times. I could definitely learn the Up-B ledge cancel.
- Adding to the above, Up-B is pretty damn cool for catching bad airdodge landings. By far, your fastest move to cover a lot of range.
- More on Up-B, I've become very aware of Nayru's > Failed tech (???) punish. Extremely good combo.
- Any chance I'm staling Up-B a lot? I have to pay attention to that, given how super early we can kill with it.
- While I can get Up-B OoS down by now, I still had a little trouble perfecting the timing (when they hit your shield). Still got a lot of kills out of it.
- For stuff like Olimar, I pretty much solely approach with Dash Attack. The guy can throw out a lot of F-Smash and Grabs, and my idea was to dash in and out of range to punish it...I actually got a match, and I might post it later on.
- I kind of suck at spiking guys like Olimar and R.O.B. They should be super "free", granted it's at a certain percent for a garanteed kill.
- I still suck at U-air, but I managed to a thing once and caught three Young Link D-airs in a row to a kill. I could definitely improve on that.
- If you've read my take on the Young Link matchup, I think Phantom would've more than like turned the tables in that matchup. If you struggle with Villager and Isabelle, it might benefit you.
- I feel that if you really focus on catching landings, it shouldn't be impossible to not let them land. I just mix U-Tilts, Dash Attacks and N-airs (I think there's a really comfterble blindspot many characters have and platforms may help).
- Run > Shield is a lot harder than it seems, at least when you need to time it (i.e projectiles). Not sure if I'm just doing it wrong, but I take a Frame 3 "move" should be a lot quicker than that. Other games like Brawl and Smash were pretty instant. Maybe it has to do with the initial dash animation? This makes it a lot harder than just run up and shield.


I think that's it, for now? I definitely won't let this get to my head. Still have a massive way to go, and the idea is being able to keep it consistent. Lack of ego makes a great player.

Dash attack is good period but you can also Up-Smash some longer air-dodges for a bigger punish. Remember you can attack out of a run now and that opens up the possibility, for all sorts of fun stuff.

I still can't really trust U-Smash for stuff like that. It feels very stiff, and you pretty much have to be either sure they're landing on top of you and that you can beat their hit. Even reading a directional airdodge is hard, because you have to be extremely fast between reacting to it and then having Zelda run up and try a move with lacklastuster horizontal ranage...which is why F-Smash is likely going to be better.

You can also true combo into Up-B at 50 which might be even better than LK in some situations.

You mean jump Up-B? The bounce from the ground sets them up higher, so a grounded setup doesn't seem like enough. I tried labbing it a bit, but didn't give it much thought.

Running Up-Tilt isn't too bad either, in some situations. You can even combo an Up-Air after two Up-Tilts if you're quick and your opponent isn't on the ball. It might true on heavier characters.

Not gonna lie, I kind of just use U-Tilt for pretty much everything, from juggling to stuffing out common aerial approaches (i.e Inkling's). It's just insanely good.

I think you can, if you're really good, at that percentage but I'm pretty bad at it. Roller is just best avoided.

Pretty much. It's not even that hard to avoid if you predict it. Although, even 3 of those per match was a death sentence, for me.

I find most opponents DI pretty far for throw combos to land, often from center stage to middle of the bottom platform somehow, but might be something to keep in mind when they don't, as the result of a screw-up or mix-up.

Doesn't DI away just benefit us? It's a free kick. I find people make things annoying when they DI up/don't DI. I'll just try N-air or U-air, more. D-Air might still be a thing, so try looking into it (past lower percents, anyway).

I need to jab more. I used to do it a lot, until everyone just started hopping all over the stage and ground battles became a thing of the past. Being able to combo from jab definitely sounds intriguing, though.

Jab is like insurance, to me. It's a small, quick wall. If I only hit the first one, chances are I'll have enough time to be safe and do something else. And if it does hit? You can eventually go for something else. I cancel to things like D-Tilt or just go for mixups (but only because I play different, not necessarily optimal).

 

[StoicPhantom]

So far, I'm pretty sure I struggle a lot more against certain projectile campy characters. I played a Young Link, today. Heavily limits my mobility, and I have to slowly walk through a wall of projectiles by either spamming somewhat-timed reflectors. Shielding is unreliable because of the shield drop, and you have to be perfect for Parries. May as well try pseudo Wavedashing, next time... My only really fast way is through the air, and it's not like we have amazing options to land on them.

Definitely Up-B punish his projectiles more. Other than fast projectiles like Wolf's, I find Up-B is always the most optimal projectile punish. Not only do you get the damage and stage control but you also "get in" and can then pressure them. Young Link will have to switch to close-combat and even though his hitboxs are disjointed, they're so short, you're basically fighting a short-range character. They have lagless frame data but you can easily space around them and he's light, so it only takes one solid read to end it. His recovery is the most spikeable recovery among the Links and is basically a worse version of Smash 4 Link's. Phantom does work well in all this, due to him not having any real answers for it.

NEWS UPDATE

Lots of practice and actually knowing a bit of what you are doing, tends to produce a lot of "miracles". The Ultra Instinct happens when you have started grasping the "flow" of Zelda and can start pulling things off on the fly. I did that as well, when I first started grasping it. Part of what makes the new Zelda so fun!

I switched from the Joycons, due to the triggers being so small and had the same misinput problems. Hopefully I get that adapter tomorrow and don't have the same memory issues.

Unless you are spamming it every other move, I don't think staling is a problem. I've Up-Bed on shield and my opponent whiffed the punish and I Up-Bed them and still got the KO just fine. Up-B is very versatile now, so get used to using it in every way possible. Some attacks just have too much shield-stun and too little endlag to punish OoS with. Pay attention to which moves you can and can't do that on and watch closely for any mistakes in spacing your opponent does. Once you start getting more familiar with it, you can bait a dash grab with shield then Up-B in place and other nifty things with it.

You can use Nayru's Love to quickly get Pikmin off of you and if you watch for the purple one, you can reflect it back at him. Phantom works well in this match-up since his short-range doesn't offer a lot of options against it. I still don't understand Olimar to this day though, so I can't help a whole lot.

Juggling and catching landings is doable, just hard and requires a steeper learning curve than most characters, due to the speed and precision issues.

I'm unsure on the shield thing, since I do it naturally. I'll have to pay closer attention, next time I play, but maybe try to ensure you have fully stopped out of the run, when you do it. Parrys don't seem to work well on projectiles anyways, so just perfect shield instead.

I still can't really trust U-Smash for stuff like that. It feels very stiff, and you pretty much have to be either sure they're landing on top of you and that you can beat their hit. Even reading a directional airdodge is hard, because you have to be extremely fast between reacting to it and then having Zelda run up and try a move with lacklastuster horizontal ranage...which is why F-Smash is likely going to be better.

Its horizontal range is much better than it looks. Even if you only hit the side that's where the finisher is and that's where they DI to. I'm still not good with it yet, but it's very powerful and can be good for trapping your opponent and hitting them, when they try to fast-fall through the platform. Use it in conjunction with the Phantom and other moves to force them to air-dodge, so you can maneuver them into Up-Smash, rather than trying a hard read or on reaction.

You mean jump Up-B? The bounce from the ground sets them up higher, so a grounded setup doesn't seem like enough. I tried labbing it a bit, but didn't give it much thought.

Holding Up-B with the new buffer will let you immediately do an aerial Up-B, when you have control. Stage-spikes seem to last a long time, so you should have time to hit the ground and Up-B, if you want the extra power of the ground one.

Doesn't DI away just benefit us? It's a free kick. I find people make things annoying when they DI up/don't DI. I'll just try N-air or U-air, more. D-Air might still be a thing, so try looking into it (past lower percents, anyway).

Depends on the character and percent(and opponent skill). Some characters seem fast enough to DI completely out of reach at any percent and a lot of characters, seems like they require very specific percents. I don't have anyone to help with labbing DI currently, so I can only judge on actual matches. Unless you need to be frame perfect, I can't seem to catch faster characters, even with buffering and I feel like I'm not too far off of being frame perfect.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Definitely Up-B punish his projectiles more. Other than fast projectiles like Wolf's, I find Up-B is always the most optimal projectile punish. Not only do you get the damage and stage control but you also "get in" and can then pressure them. Young Link will have to switch to close-combat and even though his hitboxs are disjointed, they're so short, you're basically fighting a short-range character. They have lagless frame data but you can easily space around them and he's light, so it only takes one solid read to end it. His recovery is the most spikeable recovery among the Links and is basically a worse version of Smash 4 Link's. Phantom does work well in all this, due to him not having any real answers for it.

That's actually really good advice, thank you. This is especially true about using Up-B a lot more to punish his lag. I thought little dude had little to no lag between his projectiles (obviously, they vary a little).

I also had a hard time spiking him, because he wouldn't always recover super low. It would be low, but a little away from the stage and usually had a bomb in hand or would throw a projectile to intercept me. I think I only spiked him, literally, once.

You can use Nayru's Love to quickly get Pikmin off of you and if you watch for the purple one, you can reflect it back at him. Phantom works well in this match-up since his short-range doesn't offer a lot of options against it. I still don't understand Olimar to this day though, so I can't help a whole lot.

Yeah, I notice you can reflect some of his Smash attacks. It's a pretty solid advantage, in the matchup. Doesn't seem hard to deal with.

I'm unsure on the shield thing, since I do it naturally. I'll have to pay closer attention, next time I play, but maybe try to ensure you have fully stopped out of the run, when you do it. Parrys don't seem to work well on projectiles anyways, so just perfect shield instead.

And that's exactly why it's hard. Maybe it is, precisely, because I literally just run with Fox Throts. Haven't even tried "normal" run. Otherwise, it doesn't allow me to put up a shield until the dash animation ends.

Its horizontal range is much better than it looks.

How so? It always seemed pretty bad at catching people horizontally, and my only real shot is them being either tall or just running into it.

Is this why people recommend U-Smash to punish ledge options?

 

[StoicPhantom]

That's actually really good advice, thank you. This is especially true about using Up-B a lot more to punish his lag. I thought little dude had little to no lag between his projectiles (obviously, they vary a little).

I also had a hard time spiking him, because he wouldn't always recover super low. It would be low, but a little away from the stage and usually had a bomb in hand or would throw a projectile to intercept me. I think I only spiked him, literally, once.

No probs. It's not necessarily that there is a lot of endlag, rather he has to "charge" all his projectiles. Even the smallest "charge" combined with the endlag, is more than enough for our Up-B to make it there. That goes for a lot of projectile users as well.

Spiking is difficult now, period. Even recoveries that were formerly "free" got a little boost from the mobility changes. The floatiness of 4 made it easier for our small and precise hitbox, but Ultimate's change in speed, means it only takes a little DI, to avoid such a small hitbox. Don't go too far, too fast, trying to hit them like you would in 4. Rather take advantage of the riskier off-stage game and wait for them to Up-B before committing. Zelda's floatiness can work in her favor, by slowly jumping each time, while waiting for their recovery. Our recovery is one of the best in terms of distance, so you can hang around for quite a long time.

For Young Link specifically, don't approach from the front but straight above him. His recovery has him swinging his sword side-to-side, with the last swing reaching pretty high above and in front of him. However, directly above his head, is a blind-spot, so aim for that space. If he is close to the ledge already, then you're not getting there in time. Instead setup a Phantom and punish his reactions. Up-air can catch a jump, while standing just outside his ledge roll, will cover the rest. Smart players familiar with Zelda, will try to time their get-up/roll invincibility, with the Phantom's swing, so be on the look-out for that.

And that's exactly why it's hard. Maybe it is, precisely, because I literally just run with Fox Throts. Haven't even tried "normal" run. Otherwise, it doesn't allow me to put up a shield until the dash animation ends.

In that case, it might be possible that dashes have a larger cool-down than simply running. If not, maybe you're accidentally trying to input another trot and shielding at the same time.

How so? It always seemed pretty bad at catching people horizontally, and my only real shot is them being either tall or just running into it.

Is this why people recommend U-Smash to punish ledge options?

I think the hitbox for the final hit, might extend slightly past her back hand. If your opponent is air-dodging towards you, they will have to pass through the Up-Smash and will likely get hit by her back hand, which is where the animation ends. Up-Smash, as far as I can tell, isn't supposed to be used in isolation, but as a finisher or read. Use it when your opponent is out of options and has to air-dodge towards you. That way, they will have to pass through the entire animation and hitbox, on their air-dodge alone. I don't have solid proof, but I don't think they retain their invincibility all the way through.

An example would be setting up the Phantom at the ledge and forcing them to DJ into the air. On a flat stage, where there is no platforms, they will have to come down onto the stage. Sometimes an empty dash will bait an attempt to air-dodge through your attack, then you can dash back and Up-Smash their air-dodge. Most of Zelda's options are too short or precise to make it through an air-dodge. But Up-Smash has a large and long-lasting hitbox, that can last until the invincibility is over. Be creative with its setup, essentially.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I know non of us are really professional players, but this doesn't stop us from studying. I've been meaning to look into a subject of high level play, which is the way players go on about performing combos and follow-ups. In Smash 4, with Corrin, I felt like I could never really capitalise on combos. I would throw in random hits, expect them to land, and would tend to overextend and just get punished for it. A lot of the time, I felt like I would have something garanteed out of said hits (i.e Corrin's N-air is a really good combo starter). But maybe there wasn't stuff I kept into account, such as constantly staling the move and using it way too early (like at 0%), where it would only account to a stray hit on most characters.

I'm trying to simplify a gameplan, that would help me avoid my previous habits. It's going to be a simple idea, in theory. I want to picture examples as to how I would go about it, also keeping in mind it's subjective to one's own playstyle and not necessarily meant to portray "optimal" play, in my example:

1. Approaching/"Getting in"

Dash in and out of the person's range, carefully trying to bait an attack with and punish it with an attack of your own.

2. Follow-Ups (If Applicable)

I D-Throw them for a Kick (DI out) or N-air (DI in/Non).

3. Reset to neutral and #1.

4. Juggling

I am at about mid-percents, and stuff like our D-Tilt and U-Tilt sets them up into the air, better.
You do your best to keep them there. In my case, it's a mix of catching landings with U-Tilts and Dash Attacks.

5. Ledge Trapping

If you managed to juggle right, chances are they aim for ledge. This is your chance to setup Phantom.

6. The Kill.

I would find myself fishing for the kill, which isn't always optimal. The optimal idea would be to get the most out of either a confirm (D-Tilt > Kick, D-Throw > U-air) or reading stuff that's pretty much garanteed as a punish (Airodge landing read to Up-B 2, Dash Attack, F-Smash, catching attacks with U-air, Up-B or Kick OoS).


The main idea for me to learn is to perfect when it is right to approach and how to make the most out of my combos, instead of hoping for a stray hit to lead to something. Even top players aren't perfect. Here, I timestamped an example of overextending for a follow-up (and granted, he was somewhat in the position to do so).

 

[StoicPhantom]

I know non of us are really professional players, but this doesn't stop us from studying. I've been meaning to look into a subject of high level play, which is the way players go on about performing combos and follow-ups. In Smash 4, with Corrin, I felt like I could never really capitalise on combos. I would throw in random hits, expect them to land, and would tend to overextend and just get punished for it. A lot of the time, I felt like I would have something garanteed out of said hits (i.e Corrin's N-air is a really good combo starter). But maybe there wasn't stuff I kept into account, such as constantly staling the move and using it way too early (like at 0%), where it would only account to a stray hit on most characters.

Comboing with sword characters in 4, was more read and DI dependent, than actual combos based on percentage like Mario's. You needed to be good at reading DI in 4 in general, so that may be why you felt like you where fishing. Rather than hitting, focus on using your attacks to provoke a reaction from your opponent, to steer them into a setup. Higher level play with them, meant using your attacks to serve several different purposes in one swing and setup some layered spacing and DI traps.

I know non of us are really professional players, but this doesn't stop us from studying. I've been meaning to look into a subject of high level play, which is the way players go on about performing combos and follow-ups. In Smash 4, with Corrin, I felt like I could never really capitalise on combos. I would throw in random hits, expect them to land, and would tend to overextend and just get punished for it. A lot of the time, I felt like I would have something garanteed out of said hits (i.e Corrin's N-air is a really good combo starter). But maybe there wasn't stuff I kept into account, such as constantly staling the move and using it way too early (like at 0%), where it would only account to a stray hit on most characters.

I'm trying to simplify a gameplan, that would help me avoid my previous habits. It's going to be a simple idea, in theory. I want to picture examples as to how I would go about it, also keeping in mind it's subjective to one's own playstyle and not necessarily meant to portray "optimal" play, in my example:

I think this is a good idea. Having a general plan and framework, that you can tweak and adapt throughout the match, will be helpful.

The general plan you've laid out is solid, but I think you'll find the details, will need tweaking as you are exposed to the wider cast and better players.

As far as BnB and kill combos, Zelda seems to be a little lacking in that department and a lot of her combos seem to be situational and hard to pull off. It's not like 4, where a simple Down-throw and dash back Up-air could do it, once you got the proper timing to be near frame perfect. Stage-spike to Up-B between 60-80 depending on weight, seems to be the only non-DI dependent combo I've seen that is always guaranteed and only semi-situational. I'm pretty sure LK can be DI'd out of a throw by faster characters, unless we're talking about specific percentages and frame perfection, that I don't know about.

If you want my impressions on the video you posted, I'm going to do it here, since it doesn't seem appropriate to do it in the video thread.

Good Points

- You seem to have adjusted quite well, to the overall speed of the game. Your movement alone, puts you above most Zeldas I've seen currently.
- You had some good reads in that match and landed some LKs. Being able to grasp your opponents style in order to do those things, is going to be paramount for this new Zelda, I feel.
- You seem to have an ok grasp of stage control. Being able to control space with Zelda, is going to be very important to combat some of the characters that are dominating, right now.

Bad Points

- You seem to default on the same follow-ups and have missed some potential KOs forcing an option where it's not applicable. For example, the stage-spike you did at 01:53 could have had a stock, had you Up-Bed instead.

- The Olimar you played, didn't have his spacing down and seemed pretty lacking in defense, so you got away with your aggressive style, more than you should have. I've played good Olimars who were really difficult to hit, with their good spacing and tiny hurtbox, while hurling a storm of Pikmin at the same time. This Olimar seemed to crumble a bit too easily under pressure.

- This Olimar seemed to still be playing Smash 4 in general, so didn't take advantage of the new mobility and DI to evade your edgeguarding. It would have been more optimal to use the Phantom to edgeguard, leaving you free to punish your opponent's evasion attempts.

- Your spacing with Zelda still feels a little rudimentary and I feel like your aggressive play, might be stifling your progress in that regard. I'm not saying you have to play slow and campy, but it might be prudent to explore your spacing options more. Maybe dial back the aggression a little more, in matches that it doesn't seem to work well and experiment with micro-spacing and bait your opponent to come to you.

- You took a lot of unnecessary damage through that fight, in letting the Pikmin damage you, instead of using Nayru's love to get them off. Zelda is really light in this game and dies real easy, to KO options at around 100% center stage. With a lot of KO options being really easy in this game and Zelda having a risky kit overall, it is paramount that you try to take as little damage as possible, even if feels like you might be giving up a potential opportunity, to do so. It's very easy for your opponent to make up any difference, that comes from tanking one of their hits to get their stock. That Olimar wasn't altogether there and you were still cutting it a little close.

Overall, I feel like you and your opponent were playing two different games and you didn't have your boundaries adequately tested. I don't mean to be rude to the Olimar player, but his Olimar needs some work to properly compete. Olimar isn't an easy character to learn and play, so it'll be awhile before he can properly challenge your aggressive playstyle. You have potential and the beginnings of a good foundation, but I think you were lacking a good opponent, to challenge the boundaries of your playstyle.

Once you find a good opponent that won't crumble under pressure so easily, you will find out better what you can and can't get away with and then can get a better idea of Zelda on the whole. I feel like your growth might be a little hampered, if you continue playing opponents like that and that you will improve quite quickly if you can find a better opponent.

All in all, good game. You had some good follow-ups with your pressure and I quite liked that spike read you did on him, Smash 4 DI notwithstanding.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Played again, today. Even though I won most of the matches, I feel I am falling pray to certain bad habits- sometimes for the sake of just winning, which doesn't always translate the same against better players.

- I really need to U-Air more. It's really good, but I struggle C-Sticking it, and it's to do while trying to do foward momentum. Got some kills out of it, at least.
- I keep forgetting Phantom exists. I am almost convinced I am cursed to forget everytime I start a match, becausr I legit remind myself after EVERY match. It's really silly.
- D-air OoS is growimg on me by the day. If the opponent tends to do neutral getup, or getup attack, it's almost a garanteed stagespike. That's virtually a kill at 50-60.
- Should I save Dash Attack, for killing? Hardly ever kills for me, and I don't know if it's because I stale it, or because it's just not all that strong as we thought...
- My opponent isn't being sent into tumble after Nayru's, so I can't combo to Up-B. Take it DI coming to play.
- I'm starting to use N-air far, far more. It just seems to combo a lot, catch people landing from certain angles and feels good for just about everything. I use Nair 1 for leading into stuff, a lot. I'd like to work more on Nair 1 > Kick, but as a kill option (not sure if staling gets in the way of that.
- I get annoyed when people do Roll Backwards...it's just so obvious. I even gut a few Kicks out of it.
- Talking about Rolls, I really need to start punishing these.
- Has anyone even considered tomohawk grabs? I might start going for them if my opponent keeps waiting for me to just land into a shieldgrab...
- I kept doing Jump Up-B when doing Up-B OoS. Why does it happen?
- I'm starting to use U-Smash a lot more. Namely, at the ledge. My only problem with it is, doesn't kill until about 110-120.
- Lowkey annoys me how braindead Inkling's roller is. The good thing, it's actually not that hard to avoid. You either jump out of the way, or just shield...even Kick OoS is a thing. Managed to get a handful of Parries against it, but it kind of disrupts Kick's spacing.

If you want my impressions on the video you posted, I'm going to do it here, since it doesn't seem appropriate to do it in the video thread.

Isn't that what the thread's for??? Nobody's posting on it.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Played again, today. Even though I won most of the matches, I feel I am falling pray to certain bad habits- sometimes for the sake of just winning, which doesn't always translate the same against better players.

Well, at least you are aware of them. I feel that the first and probably most important step in improving at something is self-awareness. If you are aware you have problems, then you know just what you need to fix.

Played again, today. Even though I won most of the matches, I feel I am falling pray to certain bad habits- sometimes for the sake of just winning, which doesn't always translate the same against better players.

- I really need to U-Air more. It's really good, but I struggle C-Sticking it, and it's to do while trying to do foward momentum. Got some kills out of it, at least.

I switch to tap jump when that happens, so I can jump immediately out of a dash to keep forward momentum. I think I do something akin to Fox's double-sticking.

- I keep forgetting Phantom exists. I am almost convinced I am cursed to forget everytime I start a match, becausr I legit remind myself after EVERY match. It's really silly.

I do that too. I still don't spot-dodge to this day. Like I know its useful and I often have moments in a match where I'm like "if only I spot-dodged I could have avoided that grab and punished". But I just don't think about doing it for some reason. I suppose take a baby steps approach and start off using Phantom for ledge traps and then slowly work it into your overall play.

- Should I save Dash Attack, for killing? Hardly ever kills for me, and I don't know if it's because I stale it, or because it's just not all that strong as we thought...

I don't think it's useful for that purpose in general. The only time I get a KO off it, is at high percents near the ledge. I don't think it was intended to be a KO move in the first place.

- My opponent isn't being sent into tumble after Nayru's, so I can't combo to Up-B. Take it DI coming to play.

I'm not really sure how Nayru's spin works in the first place. Maybe check to see if your opponent is a fast-faller and see if that is the problem. I know fast-fallers can cause wacky things, like making sweet-spot Fair unsafe on hit at low percents.

- Has anyone even considered tomohawk grabs? I might start going for them if my opponent keeps waiting for me to just land into a shieldgrab...

I've considered it when I setup a Phantom trap, then take to the air to punish any jumps, only to find my opponent still sitting in shield. I've always been bad at them, but it's probably worth looking into.

- I kept doing Jump Up-B when doing Up-B OoS. Why does it happen?

Probably from inputting jump too early. This happens to me too and I have tap jump on. If you don't use tap jump, maybe consider turning it off and use the jump button to jump OoS.

- I'm starting to use U-Smash a lot more. Namely, at the ledge. My only problem with it is, doesn't kill until about 110-120.

110-120 is still pretty good for how easy it is to land. You may have been a bit spoiled with Fair's ridiculous KO power. Having a KO move that doesn't require the precision that Fair does, but still kills at a decent percent is worthwhile.

Isn't that what the thread's for??? Nobody's posting on it.

It seemed to be just a video thread and I didn't think it would be a good idea to have large blocks of text breaking up the thread.

Besides this is your improvement thread, so I figured it might be easier on you, to consolidate things into one thread for quick and easy reference.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I think this is my 4th consecutive session this week. Not bad, for someone without a console. Helps this friend of mine is about half a block away.

Anyway, I think I've corrected a thing or two:

- Not getting Rolled by Inkling as much. It still happens, but I tend to react to it a lot more and just get out the way or Shield and then N-air. Been trying to Pivot Grab it, but it's a little too risky at kill percents and not worth the effort.
- Been trying to get down my Pivot Grab spacing. I've been managing to bait a few whiffs from aerials and other stuff, but it's requires some timing when you're constantly on the move (which, I am).
- Been really practicing 'dem U-airs. It's such a great move, and it looks like I am almost consistently pulling them off like I wanted to. Aiming needs a little practice, but I've been able to get stuff like three of them in a row for a kill. Can't tell you how satisfying this move feels...
- Looks like I'm getting the hang of punishing Rolls, again. My opponent has somewhat of a Rolling habit when he is cornered, and I've always been onto it.
- I should probably incorporate Turnaround Grab. It's a really small detail, but you'd be amazed at the many top players that use this.
- Not a single Phantom to be seen. I am almost convinced someone stole the button(s) from me. Just kidding, I suck.
- On the lookout for ledge getup options. I kept getting hit by getup attack, even though it should be extremely easy to step back and F-Smash it. Managed to just Dash Dance away and Kick it, once. It's got a surprising amount of lag, it seems. U-Smash is becoming a staple for covering stuff like jumps, and I'm getting it fairly often.
- Similiarly, I'm trying to see if I could get a read and get a Kick from people running off platforms and certain whiffs. Some of these seem like obvious openings, but it's probably a lot harder to actually pull off. Manage to get a ton of these on K.K Rool, but he's just a fat piece of ****.
- Got cool frametraps from chasing with U-airs. The amount of endlag out of airdodges is obscene. I must've gotten a few of those reading the airdodge into a Kick.
- I seem to be struggling a lot into getting Up-B OoS kills. Maybe I'm not used to it. It should be an automatic reaction once people touch your shield...
- D-Throw > F-air is insanely good. If they DI the way you want them to, it's basically a kill at 50 towards the edge.

Also, petition to change from Kick > Heel.

 

[StoicPhantom]

- Been really practicing 'dem U-airs. It's such a great move, and it looks like I am almost consistently pulling them off like I wanted to. Aiming needs a little practice, but I've been able to get stuff like three of them in a row for a kill. Can't tell you how satisfying this move feels...

I agree. I didn't think anything would be more satisfying than Fair, but Up-air is a contender.

- On the lookout for ledge getup options. I kept getting hit by getup attack, even though it should be extremely easy to step back and F-Smash it. Managed to just Dash Dance away and Kick it, once. It's got a surprising amount of lag, it seems. U-Smash is becoming a staple for covering stuff like jumps, and I'm getting it fairly often.

If you're getting hit by that, it might your opponent countering Up-Smash at the ledge. If that is the case, try fully charging Phantom, then Up-Smash. If they jump, Up-Smash will hit and if they getup attack, then Phantom will. Watch for them timing a roll as the Phantom swings though. If that looks like it's going to happen, try D-Tilting when their ledge invincibility is gone and that should pop them into the Phantom's slash.

- Similiarly, I'm trying to see if I could get a read and get a Kick from people running off platforms and certain whiffs. Some of these seem like obvious openings, but it's probably a lot harder to actually pull off. Manage to get a ton of these on K.K Rool, but he's just a fat piece of ****.

It is possible, but I think is dependent on opponent awareness and character size/fall speed. You can also run off the platform yourself and Bair in some situations.

- Got cool frametraps from chasing with U-airs. The amount of endlag out of airdodges is obscene. I must've gotten a few of those reading the airdodge into a Kick.

Yeah, those air-dodges are going to be what makes the Phantom so great and how Zelda can compete despite her speed. I still suck at timing, but I am definitely getting better.

- I seem to be struggling a lot into getting Up-B OoS kills. Maybe I'm not used to it. It should be an automatic reaction once people touch your shield...

It's shield-stun and endlag dependent I think. For me it seems to really depend on the move and how the opponent spaces it.

- D-Throw > F-air is insanely good. If they DI the way you want them to, it's basically a kill at 50 towards the edge.

I'm convinced that D-Throw is DI dependent now. Had someone DI up and away at 30 and made it impossible for any follow ups.

 

[Eisal]

Been playing a lot of Zelda recently. It's been going quite well, but it's almost impossible to win against fast characters (who knows how to abuse their speed) as well as sword characters (even worse, fast sword characters.)

I still have some problems against Ganondorf, but that's because my spacing is still horrible.

She is very fun, but really difficult to do well with.

I feel like I'm not utilizing the kicks a whole lot either, and should be doing that I think.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I still have some problems against Ganondorf, but that's because my spacing is still horrible.

I think once you get your spacing issues sorted out, everything else will fall in place. Zelda is a heavily spacing oriented character and fast and sword characters won't be as oppressive once get her spacing figured out. Everyone's disadvantage is terrible in this game, even if some are less obvious than others. No one is getting back on stage for free and Zelda is just as good as anyone, in terms of being a nightmare in that regard.

Kicks are something that you should be doing as a combo follow up or read/punish, not throwing them out in neutral(you will be punished).

Experiment with Up-Tilt, Up-air, Up-B, dash attack, Nair, OoS options, and of course Phantom. All of her tools have a use and purpose, but these are the core in her spacing and neutral, I feel. Get used to the speed, range, and priority of these moves and how they apply with certain match-ups and playstyles. Despite speed or range deficits, you will find them surprisingly useful and competitive, against a lot of superior seeming moves and characters. Her disjoints are really effective in this game.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Update on yesterday:

- I still feel mentally handicapped everytime I get hit by Roller. NO ONE should be getting hit by this. It's the very definition of braindead and an insult to my very person. I'm avoiding better, but even getting hit with it three times in a match is going to be a stock. If other Inkling players are as predictable as my training partner, than they'll just desperately start doing it when they can't find a kill.

Just Up-B OoS...or N-air, if they're not at kill percents.

- Speaking of Up-B OoS, I took it upon myself to try that new technique. You know, where you tilt your shield upwards and just mash B. The only downside, you have to be very aware of your opponent's spacing. So far, better than the normal Up-B OoS, for me...

- Started using Phantom...kind of. Literally, after we were done, I asked him for one last match. I just kept spamming it while he was on the edge, so I can remember I have to do it. Looks like winning took a lot less effort, honestly. Got a bit too confident in it and wasn't fishing for Ledge Jump reads, so I'll defenitely be on the lookout for those.

- I've gotten about two ocassions where I accidentally pulled off D-Smash in very good situations. It's a move I tend to outright ignore, but I can kind of see situations where I might prefer it over other fast moves like Jab and D-Tilt. I did something weird like soft F-air > D-Smash at high percents and sent them at a really weird angle (which is what it does).

- Be on the lookout for more Up-B punishes on airdodges. There's a lot of time you can't get there, but you'd be surprised at the amount of things it can punish. The sweetspot is extremely deadly.

- Haven't been sticking to the gameplan, so I'll definitely have to tweak that out.

- Pulled off a cool combo I've theorised about. This should work well with OoS, but I think this works especially well at the ledge, since you can catch stuff like neutral getup and getup attack. If you're parking there with your shield, you'll be more likely to D-air OoS and kill at like 50.

- Oh, yeah. Accidentally found a combo doing soft Din's (weakest hit) on Squirtle at 74%. I got a replay of that.

Been playing a lot of Zelda recently. It's been going quite well, but it's almost impossible to win against fast characters (who knows how to abuse their speed) as well as sword characters (even worse, fast sword characters.)

I still have some problems against Ganondorf, but that's because my spacing is still horrible.

She is very fun, but really difficult to do well with.

I feel like I'm not utilizing the kicks a whole lot either, and should be doing that I think.

Like Phantom said, Kicks should generally come from combos, some OoS (out of shield) and maybe very obvious punishes (though you probably have more reliable options). When you get more experienced, you can start reading stuff like jumps and the like, though it still takes a lot of aim to pull off (not like I'm super experienced). OoS is a big one, because it means you have an extremely powerful kill move if they poke your shield wrong (well, two, with Up-B).

I wanted to draw my own take on matchups against speedier characters, but I fear sounding too pretentious. I'm just a new Zelda main in this game, so what would I know. The only thing I can say, is to not fall in the trap that others do. Zelda isn't the fastest character, and I get that. But, that doesn't mean she can't use her new mobility to her disposal and get out of that shell. It's just stuff I saw in other fellow mains, when I used to main Bowser in Brawl/Smash 4 and then Corrin.

 

[Nintendan]

Been playing a lot of Zelda recently. It's been going quite well, but it's almost impossible to win against fast characters (who knows how to abuse their speed) as well as sword characters (even worse, fast sword characters.)

I still have some problems against Ganondorf, but that's because my spacing is still horrible.

She is very fun, but really difficult to do well with.

I feel like I'm not utilizing the kicks a whole lot either, and should be doing that I think.

Yeah I've been struggling vs fast characters too. If you can predict an approach, Nayru's works wonders, especially against Sonic as he is a little more telegraphed than most other characters.

Its still risky to go for blindly as they can easily mix up their movement, and there's a ton of end lag on it, but its probably one of her best options. I also want to experiment with up tilt when someone approaches with shorthops a lot. I'm not using an awful lot in neutral and I feel it'd help vs characters who get a lot out of aerials (or just players who aerial approach a lot).

Still definitely not an ideal matchup. Phantom becomes pretty risky to charge up so is probably best left for edge guarding in these matchups.

A lot of this is just theories and stuff I haven't tried much/yet, but I've had some decent success with Nayru's, just a matter of not throwing it out so often.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Update on yesterday:

- I still feel mentally handicapped everytime I get hit by Roller. NO ONE should be getting hit by this.

It's faster than it looks, I think. I always feel like I have more room than I do and get planted instead.

- Speaking of Up-B OoS, I took it upon myself to try that new technique. You know, where you tilt your shield upwards and just mash B. The only downside, you have to be very aware of your opponent's spacing. So far, better than the normal Up-B OoS, for me...

I tried it a couple of times, but honestly just did not like how it felt. And the spacing thing kind of sealed the deal. Maybe I gave it too little time and should try it more.

I'm planning on experimenting with Up-Smash OoS, since I accidentally did it on a Shulk and got him at 120. There was a little window, when he was crossing me up with Nair, that Up-Smash was able to squeeze in. I think it could potentially be really effective with aerial spammers and might be able to cover Up-B's blind spots. At the very least, getting a guaranteed hit can be better in certain cases, where Up-B might pop them at a weird angle.

It's a move I tend to outright ignore, but I can kind of see situations where I might prefer it over other fast moves like Jab and D-Tilt. I did something weird like soft F-air > D-Smash at high percents and sent them at a really weird angle (which is what it does).

I do that too. I also pulled off a weird combo on a Pichu, but forgot to save the replay and what is was, so now I'm out of ideas for it. It's just difficult to find a place for a move, that is that short and covers low in a game where everyone is aerialing.

- Pulled off a cool combo I've theorised about. This should work well with OoS, but I think this works especially well at the ledge, since you can catch stuff like neutral getup and getup attack. If you're parking there with your shield, you'll be more likely to D-air OoS and kill at like 50.

That is interesting, I will have to keep that one in mind. Fair's power will lend to some pretty crazy KO's, even on heavys. I KOed a Rob earlier at like 70 across the stage. Better DI probably would have helped, but that is still pretty crazy. Still have a lot of difficulty getting timing consistently without spot-dodging, though.

- Oh, yeah. Accidentally found a combo doing soft Din's (weakest hit) on Squirtle at 74%. I got a replay of that.

Yeah, I've gotten some random combos with it as well. Chained it with Phantom on this poor Marth once and carried him over halfway across the stage stringing several of them together, before he got out. Zelda has a lot of hidden potential, I feel.

Yeah I've been struggling vs fast characters too. If you can predict an approach, Nayru's works wonders, especially against Sonic as he is a little more telegraphed than most other characters.

Its still risky to go for blindly as they can easily mix up their movement, and there's a ton of end lag on it, but its probably one of her best options. I also want to experiment with up tilt when someone approaches with shorthops a lot. I'm not using an awful lot in neutral and I feel it'd help vs characters who get a lot out of aerials (or just players who aerial approach a lot).

Still definitely not an ideal matchup. Phantom becomes pretty risky to charge up so is probably best left for edge guarding in these matchups.

A lot of this is just theories and stuff I haven't tried much/yet, but I've had some decent success with Nayru's, just a matter of not throwing it out so often.

Your definitely on the right track. Up-Tilt is very good for short-hops and is good for many things in general. Definitely get familiar with it, its priority is actually pretty insane when timed properly and can beat a surprising amount of Dairs. Properly spaced it can go toe-to-toe with swords as well. Just space around the hitboxs when you do so.

For fast characters, use the fact that they generally need to be aggressive and approach to your advantage. Zelda's base is still a defensive character, so she has very good tools to stuff rushdowns and aggressive play in general. If they back off, don't feel like you need to chase them, just plant yourself center stage and wait for an opening to knock them off stage and edgeguard.

Theories are good to have, so long as you test and apply them. Zelda has a lot of stuff now, so there is going to be plenty of room and need to think outside the box.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I realise I haven't been using Nayru's in the last couple of days, which is kind of weird. It's an extremely good move if you know how to time it. However, I had the bad habit of throwing out prememptively after endlag, which was usually bad timing.

It beats put a ton of moves, and covers strange angles other moves don't (i.e Pikachu's N-air) and when you don't have some landing options against certain attacks. It can also combo into Up-B, which is a massive plus.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I realise I haven't been using Nayru's in the last couple of days, which is kind of weird. It's an extremely good move if you know how to time it. However, I had the bad habit of throwing out prememptively after endlag, which was usually bad timing.

It beats put a ton of moves, and covers strange angles other moves don't (i.e Pikachu's N-air) and when you don't have some landing options against certain attacks. It can also combo into Up-B, which is a massive plus.

Yep. There is a bit of a blind spot, between the top point and one of the side points, that can let certain Nair's like Sheik's or Mario's in and hit the top of your head, when the invincibility expires, but otherwise one of the best defensive moves I've seen.

I've been trying to experiment more, with it as an edgeguard tool, based on suggestions from elsewhere. I'm not too good at it yet or even remembering it, but I feel like it can cover that gap, that sometimes crops up, where your opponent's recovery is too quick and close to the stage or isn't spikeable, to do the usual. Stage spikes seem to be nerfed from before, but it puts your opponent in a bad position. I got some really early and crazy KOs, by jumping from the ledge and Bairing their descent, when it pops them high, since they don't have their jumps and can't safely land on stage.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Got a bit of training, just now. I did far better after a few matches. I was getting beat, but then I was consistently 2-stocking my opponent (this time, Pokemon Trainer). Since my training partner has a thing for Squirtle, it made me realise how similiar their aerial game is. Very similiar hitboxes, and the carry-over from Squirtle to Inkling (and vice-versa) made me a lot better at dealing with these kind of hits (which is something I was concerened about, just the other day).

- I was using a lot more Dash Attack. It's just really good at catching landings. I use it a lot to punish whiffs. It's really quick, and has pretty good range.
- I was heavily trying to remind myself to N-air OoS. It trivialises a lot of aerial approaches when you remind yourself you can safely shield and punish.
- I'm actually starting to juggle with U-air, now.
- Starting to cover airdodges a little better. The harder ones are probably those when you fail a combo and they airdodge closer to the ground. A lot of the time, I can at least get a Dash Attack out of it. I even started D-Throw > airdodge read to try and get a Kick out of it, but it looks I'm a little green, still.
- As I mentioned, I feel a little smarter and avoiding certain hits. Instead of taking the hit and getting juggled, I automatically retreat and don't bother to challenge it (I usually try to land with D-air). I was getting killed by Ivysaur, but it was really easy to avoid his kill moves and simply reset the situation.
- Up-B OoS still needs some work.
- I think I did Phantom......once. I still keep reminding myself.
- I realise I had a bit of a fear regarding heavies, but they're just really prone to grab combos. It's not that hard to avoid their hits and get like 30+ off of grabs each time. U-air juggles for days, too.
- Starting to reach certain ledge options better, such as reading an aerial and drifting back to punish with F-Smash.
- I'm forgetting something, and it's not Phantom.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Got a bit of training, just now. I did far better after a few matches. I was getting beat, but then I was consistently 2-stocking my opponent (this time, Pokemon Trainer). Since my training partner has a thing for Squirtle, it made me realise how similiar their aerial game is. Very similiar hitboxes, and the carry-over from Squirtle to Inkling (and vice-versa) made me a lot better at dealing with these kind of hits (which is something I was concerened about, just the other day).

Charizard is the dark horse in this MU, I feel. Squirtle is fast, but has no range and is easily walled out. Ivysaur as you noted, can be avoided by retreating and his projectile can be Up-Bed into. Charizard on the other hand, has surprising speed, ridiculous range, can completely shutdown Phantom attempts with Flare Blitz, and isn't easy to edgeguard. The battle always becomes a struggle when he's switched to and once PTs realize this, I think this could potentially become a difficult MU.

Got a bit of training, just now. I did far better after a few matches. I was getting beat, but then I was consistently 2-stocking my opponent (this time, Pokemon Trainer). Since my training partner has a thing for Squirtle, it made me realise how similiar their aerial game is. Very similiar hitboxes, and the carry-over from Squirtle to Inkling (and vice-versa) made me a lot better at dealing with these kind of hits (which is something I was concerened about, just the other day).

- I was using a lot more Dash Attack. It's just really good at catching landings. I use it a lot to punish whiffs. It's really quick, and has pretty good range.
- I was heavily trying to remind myself to N-air OoS. It trivialises a lot of aerial approaches when you remind yourself you can safely shield and punish.

OoS in general, is good for stuffing aerials and Nair happens to be one of the better ones.

- As I mentioned, I feel a little smarter and avoiding certain hits. Instead of taking the hit and getting juggled, I automatically retreat and don't bother to challenge it (I usually try to land with D-air). I was getting killed by Ivysaur, but it was really easy to avoid his kill moves and simply reset the situation.

That is a good idea to have. Even if you have to retreat, Zelda is pretty good at holding the line and a well timed dash dance, can turn that retreat into an opportunity. It is better to lose a little stage control, than to get hit as a character, that is comboed for 50-70 and KOed at 100.

- I realise I had a bit of a fear regarding heavies, but they're just really prone to grab combos. It's not that hard to avoid their hits and get like 30+ off of grabs each time. U-air juggles for days, too.

The only heavy you need fear, is Donkey Kong, I think. He's got a lot of speed this time and keeps all his other goodies, except maybe grab combos. Having all that speed, combined with his range, makes walling him difficult. His recovery is not completely terrible this time and can complicate things a little further. Requires more pinpoint spacing to get around Dair and dash attack.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

S StoicPhantom

Absolutely. My training partner has discovered fairly quick, that Chatizard is his strongest pick against me (and arguably Zelda). I still find him fairly doable. Respect his options, but not so much that you're too scared to punish. For example, I kept on eating Flare Blitz on the first two days, until I completely adapted and didn't get hit by a single one (+Kick punish after shield). He's also fairly predictable with his grabs, as it's one of his few approach options.

More notes to self:

- You know that spacing at the ledge where your opponent positions themselves just at the right place to cover ledge roll and normal/getup attacks? I keep landing right into smash attacks at times. No more.

Assuming it's not disjointed and properly timed, Nayru's can be really good here.

- I'm making it a thing to properly land Kicks OoS consistently. Like, always. Thos is too powerful to pass out on.

-Starting to adapt to Roller a lot. If you're not me and even half a brain, just shield and Nair/Up-B OoS. It's a free kill.

- I suck until proven otherwise.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Absolutely. My training partner has discovered fairly quick, that Chatizard is his strongest pick against me (and arguably Zelda). I still find him fairly doable. Respect his options, but not so much that you're too scared to punish. For example, I kept on eating Flare Blitz on the first two days, until I completely adapted and didn't get hit by a single one (+Kick punish after shield). He's also fairly predictable with his grabs, as it's one of his few approach options.

It's still doable, just easy for a random Flare Blitz to decide the match. I find a good Charizard, can setup a 50-50 with Flare Blitz and grab, making things a little tense. Up throw being able to land on the top platform, is pretty nasty.

- You know that spacing at the ledge where your opponent positions themselves just at the right place to cover ledge roll and normal/getup attacks? I keep landing right into smash attacks at times. No more.

Assuming it's not disjointed and properly timed, Nayru's can be really good here.

Yeah, getting back on stage is pretty difficult in general. Been meaning to Nayru there, although I also find, it's disjointed characters that are good at that in the first place.

-Starting to adapt to Roller a lot. If you're not me and even half a brain, just shield and Nair/Up-B OoS. It's a free kill.

It's surprisingly difficult to avoid, if you are not anticipating it. Where I get caught, is when I'm landing or trying to edgeguard and Inkling just rollers back on stage. Sometimes they will throw it out right next to me and I don't have time to react. It's just kind of a stupid move in general.

- I suck until proven otherwise.

Well, maybe you will get a chance to prove otherwise at the tournament. These things just take time and Zelda is hard.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Phantom is slightly overrated and I'd dare say one of U-Tilt or Dash Attack are our best moves. A well-timed U-Tilt stuffs out a ton of approaches, combos into most of our combos (Kick, U-Air, another U-Tilt, N-air, etc) and it sends them into the air. It even beats out K.K.Rool's N-air, from what I've seen (whereas not even U-air or Kick do). At some point, I stopped looking for grabs and starting U-Tilting a lot more. It's a lot easier to catch things, since a lot of characters can just do an aerial and throw out an attack (you can't grab that).

Dash Attack is almost equal. Catches landings really well, you can punish whiffs with dash-in-and-out, it does solid amount of damage, it's one of our fastest moves (Frame 6), amazing range and it even kills (granted, you're staling it a decent bit). It can catch a lot of aerial approach which you have otherwise no business of contesting (maybe even some sorts, with the right timing?).

 

[Kannazuki]

Once in awhile I can get a bit of breathing room recovering back to the stage by acting unpredictable with options for example attempting under edge up-airs, up-B ledge grab feints and then finally going for a surprise up-B ledge whiff that can catch edge campers off guard.

People forget to respect the Farore elevator when they try to chase you under stage and end up bouncing off the edge to their deaths,

 

[Nintendan]

Phantom is slightly overrated and I'd dare say one of U-Tilt or Dash Attack are our best moves. A well-timed U-Tilt stuffs out a ton of approaches, combos into most of our combos (Kick, U-Air, another U-Tilt, N-air, etc) and it sends them into the air. It even beats out K.K.Rool's N-air, from what I've seen (whereas not even U-air or Kick do). At some point, I stopped looking for grabs and starting U-Tilting a lot more. It's a lot easier to catch things, since a lot of characters can just do an aerial and throw out an attack (you can't grab that).

Dash Attack is almost equal. Catches landings really well, you can punish whiffs with dash-in-and-out, it does solid amount of damage, it's one of our fastest moves (Frame 6), amazing range and it even kills (granted, you're staling it a decent bit). It can catch a lot of aerial approach which you have otherwise no business of contesting (maybe even some sorts, with the right timing?).

I've been really trying to get into understanding neutral the past 2 weeks and after realising how risky/careless I played before, it's making me realise Zelda is harder than I thought. I agree about Phantom being overrated. Against certain matchups, Phantom becomes really difficult to pull off when you'd want to (mainly vs rushdown characters).
I still think it's her best tool in neutral against most other characters because it's super strong when used at a safe range, but if you are constantly unable to space one effectively, you have to rely on her more closer ranged tools, and that's where my game has come to a bit of a standstill I think.

I'm kinda starting to put the pieces together and not autopilot defensive and aggressive options but play much more reactionary or based off informed predictions (not doing too well with it, but since I'm slowing my play down a lot I expect this to be normal). I feel like playing Zelda is actually going to help more with improving my play in this area since she has basically 0 approaching options, so I'm thinking even more about my opponent's movement and how to deny their aggression.
So when Phantom isn't safe, I think it mainly comes down to a bunch of moves: Jab, Dash Attack, UTilt and Nair.

Jab is of course, fast, stops people trying to dash grab pretty effectively and can even stop some dash attacks too (tasty frame 4). Also fun fact: rapid jab will hit Sonic's Spin Dash (might vary on speed) and inkling's Roller before they hit you. Not super useful honestly since they can jump out of those moves (and if you misread an approach, rapid jab has tons of end lag) but still kinda cool to know and might come in handy.
I'll be honest, too many times I just jab and hold it rather than confirming off of Jab 1, so I don't know how safe Jab 1 is on shield but from what I've read it isn't super safe. That's the only thing I'm not too keen on with Jab, though I think at point-blank ranges, dtilt may be faster and safer. No idea, just throwing ideas out there.

Dash attack is still great, but I need to not throw it out so much in neutral because I find myself getting shield punished. This move along with Phantom is teaching me to not approach with Zelda. I feel DA is best used for whiff punishes or dash dance reads on the ground (still a little risky). I need to practice with this move a lot more.

As I said, I'm trying to focus on being more focused on my opponent and reacting to their approaches and the more I've tried using this (and the more I think about it) the better it seems - UTilt. This move seems very safe and it's end lag is quite low. The range is ok, so timing this move is SUPER important (I miss so many of these, its the right move to do at the time, I just screw up my timing/spacing). The coverage however is great. Catching landings (care for disjoint dairs though like Lucina), combo starter/extender, solid anti air vs short hop approaches, and can even cover some rolls as it hits behind you. Thinking about it, this moves seems strong at the ledge too. Will have to mess around with that. It's a lot of theorying I know, but this honestly seems like one of her strongest neutral tools when Phantom is too risky and you have to CQC.

Nair just seems super solid at denying any slower shorthop approaches or reacting to full hops above you. Best part of this move is how long its active for. That said, I think I throw this move out a bit too often when I'm not even reacting to something (kinda like how Marth/Lucina just space fairs). That's just not the way to use this move. Again, another move that's telling me to be more reactive/prediction based with with character. This is somewhat punishable so you cannot throw this out as much as something like uptilt IMO.

Super long post, didn't think I'd ramble that long but thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on Zelda after stepping back, watching some videos on neutral and returning to the character.
A lot of this might be complete crap, being relatively new to competitive Smash, but just throwing my thoughts on here gets me thinking about these things which is honestly really fun.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Phantom is there to cover Zelda's holes, mostly with approach and at a distance. Primarily you want it to force a camping opponent to approach or to make an opponent's disadvantage even worse. If you are having trouble safely using it, that means it did it's job or wasn't really necessary in the first place. Rushdown characters need to be in your face, which is where Zelda wants the opponent to be, so she can take advantage of her good defensive options. Not needing Phantom much for those fights, is perfectly normal.

Where it is helpful are MUs like Incineroar, where they rely on the opponent approaching them. Zelda will get destroyed by Incineroar's frame data and as such it is better to force him to approach and take advantage of his poor speed and approach options. If the rushdown characters try to fall back and camp, Phantom forces them to you and prevents them from aerial camping.

Phantom is also important for striking from a distance, like comboing an opponent that was knocked too far away for Zelda to follow up. That often leads to an edgeguard scenario, where Phantom is also good for striking them, when they are off stage or ledge trapping them. It can be used like one of them robots the bomb squad uses, and sent into traps your opponent has setup, to disrupt them.

Phantom wasn't meant to be spammed in neutral, more so to cover Zelda's weaknesses. Anytime you feel like you can't do something safely with Zelda, is likely going to be a job for the Phantom.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

So I finally got the game. Since I got over most of my technical deficiencies, I don't feel there's a whole lot to practice. Fancy, situational combos aren't my thing, and I already have most of the basic combos down (looks like I really got Stomp > U-air down). Been also playing a lot with SH D'air, so there's that...also think I'm switching back to regular Up-B OoS, instead of the shield tilt version. Found a way to avoid jumping Up-B. You kind of either press Up-B + Jump at the same time, or roll your thumb from B>Y.

Maybe I should try getting online. I feel like there's more I can do whem I'm reacting to an actual person playing, instead of a CPU.

The stick also feels a little stiff. Had trouble dash dancing (normal, useless dash dance not foxthrot). Maybe it's a mix of new Joycons + giant****ingLCD.

 

[Nintendan]

Phantom is there to cover Zelda's holes, mostly with approach and at a distance. Primarily you want it to force a camping opponent to approach or to make an opponent's disadvantage even worse. If you are having trouble safely using it, that means it did it's job or wasn't really necessary in the first place. Rushdown characters need to be in your face, which is where Zelda wants the opponent to be, so she can take advantage of her good defensive options. Not needing Phantom much for those fights, is perfectly normal.

Where it is helpful are MUs like Incineroar, where they rely on the opponent approaching them. Zelda will get destroyed by Incineroar's frame data and as such it is better to force him to approach and take advantage of his poor speed and approach options. If the rushdown characters try to fall back and camp, Phantom forces them to you and prevents them from aerial camping.

Phantom is also important for striking from a distance, like comboing an opponent that was knocked too far away for Zelda to follow up. That often leads to an edgeguard scenario, where Phantom is also good for striking them, when they are off stage or ledge trapping them. It can be used like one of them robots the bomb squad uses, and sent into traps your opponent has setup, to disrupt them.

Phantom wasn't meant to be spammed in neutral, more so to cover Zelda's weaknesses. Anytime you feel like you can't do something safely with Zelda, is likely going to be a job for the Phantom.

This makes a lot of sense, I just have trouble dealing with things/characters that Phantom isn't safe against. It feels like you need to make accurate reads because a bad jump, Nayru's and Jab (if you rapid jab them if they dash and shield into you) can often end up getting punished, and with this game's movement being that much faster, I find it hard to keep up with my opponent sometimes.
Very useful info though, I'll have to try it out (I previously just used Phantom a LOT). I've noticed recently I'm actually losing potential punishes/catches and opportunities to push my opponent back with movement by charging Phantom all the time.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Got together with a group and they got me into their "Family Group", so I've gotten my hands on the online a bit. I don't seem to be suffering a whole lot of lag, but even the tiniest framedrop makes the difference. Regardless, been winning most matches. I want to get into the competitive mode.

 

[StoicPhantom]

This makes a lot of sense, I just have trouble dealing with things/characters that Phantom isn't safe against. It feels like you need to make accurate reads because a bad jump, Nayru's and Jab (if you rapid jab them if they dash and shield into you) can often end up getting punished, and with this game's movement being that much faster, I find it hard to keep up with my opponent sometimes.
Very useful info though, I'll have to try it out (I previously just used Phantom a LOT). I've noticed recently I'm actually losing potential punishes/catches and opportunities to push my opponent back with movement by charging Phantom all the time.

Yeah, it isn't easy to figure out Zelda's close range game at first. One thing that I think will help, is not associating Zelda's short range with poor neutral capabilities. Zelda actually has a fair amount of disjoints and Up-Tilt is much more disjointed than it appears. Up-Tilt is very useful as an anti-air and can beat out any non-disjointed attacks. With careful timing you can hit the space in disjointed attacks, when they sweep to the other side. Hitboxs seem more precise in this game to me in general and there aren't a whole lot of the phantom hitboxs that plagued Smash 4. If you watch your opponent's hitboxs carefully you can squeeze into the holes left behind. Remember you can use anything thing out of a dash, so sometimes dashing under a sword character about to fast fall aerial you and Up-Tilting can be very useful and put them in a juggle situation. Nair is a similar story and has lots of applications that don't seem doable at first glance.

I think however the most important thing to learn is Zelda's advantage state. If you stop and think about her kit for a minute, you will notice even weaker moves will still knock your opponent back quite far. Going along that line of thinking, that means any solid hit will put your opponent quite far into disadvantage. That means Zelda can, even with a so-so neutral, deal a lot of damage or take a stock, only winning neutral a few times.

Up-tilt and Up-air are much better juggling tools than they seem and you can dish quite a lot of damage, before your opponent can make it back to the stage and they can sometimes screw up and open themselves up for a KO option. If you can continuously keep them in the air as a first stage and, if they make it to the platform, continue pressuring them in a second stage, then they will have multiple layers to go through before they can reset to neutral.

Similarly, knocking them off stage means you have a variety of tools to harass them and if they make it to the ledge, Phantom is very good at ledge trapping and will often lead to them being knocked back off stage or trapped on the platform. This means your opponent has to go through several layers of disadvantage, before they can reset to neutral and if Zelda's advantage is done properly, they will take massive amounts of damage and maybe a stock. Zelda's kit being high damage and high knockback means you can keep them in disadvantage and rack up lots of percent and any big mistake your opponent makes, can open up her big options like Fair/Bair or Farore's Wind.

Rather than winning neutral over and over again and throwing out KO options trying to hit your opponent, instead try to win it once and then keep them in disadvantage and watch for any panic options or mistakes to land the big one. Make your goal to pop the opponent in the air or knock them off stage, then take your time keeping them there, until you see an opening.


Of course that's all easier said than done and some characters will make it really difficult to read DI and options in order to keep them there. That's where character knowledge and grasping your opponent's habits and playstyle come into play. I realize learning 75 characters is a lot to ask, so instead focus on the problem ones or the common ones. If you learn their options and general style, then it will be much easier to predict and counter their actions. Zelda is probably best played reactive, so understanding every optimal option your opponent has at any given time is important, in order to figure out which moves can be beaten and how to keep them in disadvantage.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Note to self stick to U-Tilt > N-air juggles below mid percents and not U-air so early.

Also have to more patient when I'm the ledge because people catch on to my jumping habits and just U-Smash or whatever.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

stuff weekly update and more stuff

- Im still kind of reckless with my approaches. I do a lot of dash dance play, but I eventually tire out and start getting hit. The idea is to avoid those and get in as much as I can through combos and strings.
- I had to switch back to GC controller, and I managed. Parries were coming along, and sometimes got stuff like Parry > U-Tiltx2 > N-air at 0%.
- I actually just started shielding.
- N-air OoS. Gained like 20 levels out of that, alone.
- The whole dash dance > dash attack punish works surprisingly well. Like, I could even catch good Chrom players with it.
- Getting super comfterble with D-air. Huge shoutouts to S StoicPhantom for the initial idea OoS. I just feel it covers angles and situations where you would otherwise be in trouble (i.e Roy and Chrom charging B at the ledge). Its also the utmost satisfying punish when you do it OoS for a super early kill.
- Gotta stop trying to surprise people with Teleport. Not only were a few people here smart enough to just shield, but there were actually two dudes that Parried it, consistently...
- I dont know what people are saying. N-air is godlike.
- I still dont know what a Phantom is. Is it something to eat? Its literally not in my vocabulary.
- also Up B OoS reminder

 

[StoicPhantom]

- Getting super comfterble with D-air. Huge shoutouts to S StoicPhantom for the initial idea OoS. I just feel it covers angles and situations where you would otherwise be in trouble (i.e Roy and Chrom charging B at the ledge). Its also the utmost satisfying punish when you do it OoS for a super early kill.

I can't take total credit, since I stole it from another Zelda player, I played. Glad you're finding success with it, though.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

we still here

- **** Inkling and your ****ty Roller. I'm not getting hit by that **** no moe, and now you ain't killing like ever (okay a smart Inkling can U-Smash OoS our Kicks but don't tell them).
- Getting a little cocky with my U-airs, and I should aim them better. Wasn't frametrapping as well after the airdodge this time around.
- I was starting to punish Inkling's B-airs by just dashing away > Dash Attack. If Zelda can do this, you have no excuse. Though, it helps if your opponent switches up between aerials, grabs and stuff like that.
- I don't realistically see a smart playing running into Roller. Just don't challenge. Shield, and then your OoS options. It's almost a free kill at higher percents. Sometimes I just Kick the damn thing when they try to land with it.
- Where the **** is Phantom.
- Really starting to time my Up-Bs better. Needed to get the hang of them, and now I've done a couple of Parry > Up-Bs.
- I still need to try tomohawking. Just grabs, in general. Maybe people are just more likely to shield against Zelda, which can mean more grabs. A simple turnaround grab might be the answer to a couple situations.
- I feel like the only thing I really need to cover the ledge, is a well-timed F-Smash. F-Smash in general, is just insane. 20+ damage, multi-hit, eats through spotdodges and kills really well.
- I don't seem to be landing D-air onstage on Inkling so much. They have strange hurtboxes.
- Talking about D-airs, I got so used to either beating or trading hits that I kept getting caught into Wario's U-Tilt and U-airs. I pretty much just started getting out the way and the matchup got a whole lot easier.
- I'm becoming better at shielding in general, which is massive. I used to struggle with it, given that I only run in fox throts. This means shield can only come out after the initial dash animation is over, which can leave you very exposed.
- Still trying to be better at Kick OoS. I don't always get the sweetspot, even when it looks like I could.

These aren't all that general aspects, but it can helps someone else I guess.

 

[StoicPhantom]

- Really starting to time my Up-Bs better. Needed to get the hang of them, and now I've done a couple of Parry > Up-Bs.

That first hitbox is much bigger than you might initially think. Just make sure you DI towards them a little, if you snag them with the outer hitbox. I think it can even hit above the bottom platforms, although I haven't tested that yet(pretty sure it's happened a couple times before though).

- I'm becoming better at shielding in general, which is massive. I used to struggle with it, given that I only run in fox throts. This means shield can only come out after the initial dash animation is over, which can leave you very exposed.

Shielding a mistimed dash attack or misspaced aerial, then punishing with Up-B OoS, is the most amazing thing. It's pretty much an instant stock, if your opponent makes the slightest mistake. Sometimes I'll Up-B OoS, when the opponent's projectile hits it or when they try to dash/roll away after poking and catch them by surprise. She just gets so much OoS.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

More stuff:

- I'm going to try incorporating actual Phantasm into my play. I'm going to try half-spamming it a bit, so I at least remember it's a ****ing thing.
- You can reflect Pichu's (and likely, Pikachu's, as well) Down B. This is probably already known, but it's pretty massive for me.
- Can't Kick Pichu to save my life. The only times I could get him was in the air. Barely a single Kick OoS, and you can forget about catching his F & D-Smash.
- Getting a lot sharper with my Pivot Grabs. I still don't think her range is anything remarkable, but it can get the job done with good timing (i.e you can catch a Roller if you're super precise).
- F-Smash is probably everything you need at the ledge.
- I looked a little shaky catching airdodges the other day. Can't help feeling like a ****** everytime my opponents keeps getting those for free.
- Nayru's is insanely good. Probably not a surprise to anyone.
- I'm pretty sure you can Kick OoS Mac's Smash Attack without even Parrying. Not entirely sure about D-Smash, but F & U-Smash seem very likely. Good ****ing riddance.
- I really have to look into seeing if we can Parry and Up-B between some multi-hits, like certain Jabs.
- Reaaaaally need to do more Spotdodge > Up-B.

That first hitbox is much bigger than you might initially think. Just make sure you DI towards them a little, if you snag them with the outer hitbox.

Is this a thing? I realise I accidentally did this in a match, and it looked like it had an easier time connecting the 2nd hitbox.

I think it can even hit above the bottom platforms, although I haven't tested that yet(pretty sure it's happened a couple times before though).

yeah I'm gonna need more on this

Shielding a mistimed dash attack or misspaced aerial, then punishing with Up-B OoS, is the most amazing thing. It's pretty much an instant stock, if your opponent makes the slightest mistake. Sometimes I'll Up-B OoS, when the opponent's projectile hits it or when they try to dash/roll away after poking and catch them by surprise. She just gets so much OoS.

She really does...imagine perfecting every Kick OoS. I think an amazing Zelda will get this right. This game really taught me to take advantage of OoS punishes. I had no idea how good they were until I played this game. I used to shield drop > stuff, everything.

 

[StoicPhantom]

More stuff:
- I'm going to try incorporating actual Phantasm into my play. I'm going to try half-spamming it a bit, so I at least remember it's a ****ing thing.

Just try doing it anytime you feel like you have to run across the entire stage to get to your opponent or when they are off stage. Basically anytime you feel like "Ugh, I don't really want to approach" or when it just isn't safe to do so.

More stuff:
- Can't Kick Pichu to save my life. The only times I could get him was in the air. Barely a single Kick OoS, and you can forget about catching his F & D-Smash.

I tend to try to bait a dash attack and that puts him at the right height IIRC. You can sometimes do a similar thing with his Fair, but the timing is strict. In general this an MU where you really need to be good at whiff punishing.

More stuff:
- I looked a little shaky catching airdodges the other day. Can't help feeling like a ****** everytime my opponents keeps getting those for free.

Some air-dodges are actually really good and don't seem to suffer the nerfs. Some characters like Cloud can air-dodge straight into your attacks and be completely safe. And I don't just mean through them, I mean they can land right in front of you and act immediately out of them. And I don't mean air-dodging into the ground to cancel the lag, but finishing the air-dodge right as they land and still be safe.

- I'm pretty sure you can Kick OoS Mac's Smash Attack without even Parrying. Not entirely sure about D-Smash, but F & U-Smash seem very likely. Good ****ing riddance.

Zelda's sweet-spots and super armor seem to have a weird relationship in general. Sometimes I can hit through them, sometimes I can't. I don't know why that is, whether there are frames where it is less strong or moves that don't have it active throughout. I have hit through Mac's stuff before, I'm pretty sure.

- I really have to look into seeing if we can Parry and Up-B between some multi-hits, like certain Jabs.

You definitely can. Not even Parry, some attacks have enough delay between hits, that you can do it with normal shielding. There is a jab that is a good example, but I can't recall it right now, unfortunately.

Is this a thing? I realise I accidentally did this in a match, and it looked like it had an easier time connecting the 2nd hitbox.

Yeah, just aim the stick where you want after the initial hit. If you catch your opponent on the outer edge of the first hitbox they will usually be just outside the sweet-spot. So aiming the stick slightly towards them will put them back in range. Just be careful, since it is a very subtle movement and you don't want to DI completely out.

yeah I'm gonna need more on this

I forgot to test it today, but you can probably put a cpu on the platform and test it yourself. I think you have to hit with top center part, if it actually is a thing at all. In all honesty though, any actual uses will come up so rare and there will be so much risk, it probably isn't worth it.

She really does...imagine perfecting every Kick OoS. I think an amazing Zelda will get this right. This game really taught me to take advantage of OoS punishes. I had no idea how good they were until I played this game. I used to shield drop > stuff, everything.

Indeed, with all the aerial spamming, it is even better in this game than the others. Even with that though, Zelda is in another tier of her own. I'm playing a lot of other characters to better understand them and I find myself missing her really good OoS options.