Oz's Case Study of Self-Improvement

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Deleted member 189823

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#81
I tend to try to bait a dash attack and that puts him at the right height IIRC. You can sometimes do a similar thing with his Fair, but the timing is strict. In general this an MU where you really need to be good at whiff punishing.
lawl no. He ducks even lower, and I couldn't even Pivot Grab him when he either dash attacked or tried to grab...one of those.

1/25/19 Update


- I started getting the hang of spotdodge > Up-B, yesterday. I can say I got it down on reaction, but I just have to naturalize reading certain attacks and grabs. Certain grab-happy people are in for a treat.........
- Started grabbing. Like, a lot more. People have a tendency to sit in shield, against me. Not only that, but I started becoming a lot better with grab follow-ups. I got a decent bit of D-Throw > U-Air kills, and even one D-Throw > Kick on Wario at 70.
- Accidentally got my first U-Smash OoS. Can't say a whole lot about it, but I might start to use it more. Still prefer Up-B.
- I got to stop being stupid against C-Stick spammers/For Glory Macs. It's almost demoralizing, too.
- Gotta fish for frametraps better. Doing a decent job U-air spamming, but I sometimes fail to recognize horizontal momentum and switch to stuff like N-air or Kick.
- If you play against Wario, just don't challenge his verticals like U-Tilt and U-air. You're better off airdodging or jumping away. They get most of their damage off of that. If you can beat that, you're likely winning the matchup.


Zelda's sweet-spots and super armor seem to have a weird relationship in general. Sometimes I can hit through them, sometimes I can't. I don't know why that is, whether there are frames where it is less strong or moves that don't have it active throughout. I have hit through Mac's stuff before, I'm pretty sure.
No, I meant we can Kick him when he C-sticks our shield:

"So I see you F-Smash'd my shield. Would it be okay if I just Kick you in the face?"

Again, thank god because **** C-sticking my shield for free because **** you Mac.

You definitely can. Not even Parry, some attacks have enough delay between hits, that you can do it with normal shielding. There is a jab that is a good example, but I can't recall it right now, unfortunately.
I meant stuff like Pichu's multihits, or something. Pretty sure we can't.


Yeah, just aim the stick where you want after the initial hit. If you catch your opponent on the outer edge of the first hitbox they will usually be just outside the sweet-spot. So aiming the stick slightly towards them will put them back in range. Just be careful, since it is a very subtle movement and you don't want to DI completely out.
I think I either forgot about it, or kind of sucked at it. Have to try again, next time.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#82
lawl no. He ducks even lower, and I couldn't even Pivot Grab him when he either dash attacked or tried to grab...one of those.
Oop, you're right. I must have gotten mixed up with something else. I haven't played them in a long time, so my memory of the MU is a little fuzzy. Oddly enough though, I ran into a bunch of Chus today, although most weren't very good. I guess I don't have any specific pointers, I just kind of outplay them in the neutral and they die very easy to any of Zelda's KO options. I KOed a Pichu at 123, with a sour-spot Up-B ladder lol.
- Accidentally got my first U-Smash OoS. Can't say a whole lot about it, but I might start to use it more. Still prefer Up-B.
I think it's probably going to be situation and move dependent. In some cases, it's good for catching moves with lots of bounce and DI like with Cloud's or Link's Dair, and similar cases where Up-B won't be able to hit late enough. Overall I think Up-B is still the most optimal option, but there are some situations where doing it immediately won't hit them, but waiting will be too late. Up-smash is long lasting enough, that you can start it up and wait for them to fall into it, after they first make contact with your shield.
- I got to stop being stupid against C-Stick spammers/For Glory Macs. It's almost demoralizing, too.
Phantom works wonders in the Mac MU. He has no real answer for it, especially in the air. If he air-dodges or counters a fully charged Phantom, Zelda is waiting to punish. Mac's pretty much done, anytime you get him in the air or offstage. Maybe use that MU as your Phantom practice.
I meant stuff like Pichu's multihits, or something. Pretty sure we can't.
Oh in that case, it depends on the shield stun and duration of the multi-hits. Some are fast enough that parrying the first hit, will have the invincibility last through the next ones. Others you will have to parry the last hit instead. Some like Pichu's, do too much shield stun and have too little endlag, to successfully parry. I think lightning properties are still a thing, so it is probably not going to be possible to parry anything of Pichu's, outside moves like Up-air or Nair or any move that doesn't have lightning properties.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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#83
1/28/19

Personal notes vs. Fox (mostly):

- A smart Fox will likely just shield and punish accordingly, so it's stupid to always land with an aerial (my case, D-air). This is the part where tomohawk grabs come into play, so I gotta try that someday.
- I find the best opening in having him approach, whether it is a Dash Attack, or some running aerial of his'...I mostly punish with Dash Attack of my own.
- Again, Dash Attack is just really useful. You can catch his landings a lot, with it. I never really stuff out his aerials with anti-airs of my own (maybe not use to it?), but you have to be pretty fast to catch his fastfalls. If you miss, there's a chance one of those is either a hard punish- or a kill.
- If you can get grabs, just make the most out of them. Our grab combos seem really strong against him, and there's a chance a D-Throw > U-air at like 75-80 will kill.
- Try your best not to challenge him on the way down...this is very important. You can somewhat beat his U-air attempts, but it's usually not recommended, and likely a bad trade.
- If he Dash Attacks our shield, it's like an Up-B kill. If you Parry and he crosses over, it looks like you can Kick him.
- I'm not too sure how Phantom applies in this matchup because Reflector, but it can likely force a low recovery (hint try to spike).

Other:

- Wasn't too sharp on my Parries today. Along with that, I wasn't Up-B'ing nearly as much as I should've had.
- Getting better at punishing neutral getup with F-Smash. Always puzzled me how everyone and their mother (but me) knew how to time a Smash attack before I could even shield.
- I don't think anyone knows how important it can be to play "bad" players (i.e For Glory Macs). I got a friend that plays that way with Mac and Pichu, and it teaches me not to do stuff like panic spotdodges and punish accordingly. I'm sure I'm not the only player that's been through this, and pretty much anyone that isn't actual high level will take something out of it.
- We can Kick Cloud if he Limit Break Crosslashes our shield. Another good thing to know.
- Again, we can do this again Little Mac's Smash attacks.
- Maybe it was a flop on the player's behalf, but I managed to Parry the first hit of Crosslash into an U-Tilt.
- Really need to get better at spiking Cloud and Little Mac.
- Actually, intentionally used Phantom a few times against Little Mac. Legit relief at one point where I could just corner him and kill him at 100-110 at the ledge. A lot better than having to approach at kill percents for an F-Smash read.
- Similiarly, I used it a few times on the ledge. Didn't get much out of it, but it's definitely something I'd have to work on (actual setups).
- I seem to be letting airdodges go for free. I'm gonna just start N-airing. It's the least I can do, over trying to get stuff like U-air and sweetspot kick when I can't really get there in time. Regardless, stuff like D-Throw > fail kick I could still land in time and get something like full Nayru's on them. Better than nothing.
- Nayru's is still godlike. Top 5 move, easy. You stuff out a ton of non-disjointed approaches, and it even beats out Little Mac before he throws out Smash attacks. It's also not a bad move to cover a couple of options, assuming it hits.
- I think we should start D-Tilting a lot more. It's an amazing move against midgets, and you tend to get something out of it. Same Frame as Jab, but it hits lower and has a chance even duck under some moves. It also ocassionally leads into Kick.
- I realise players that have a fast character, sit and shield and wait for you to approach make me kind of anxious. I have a habit of just throwing out randy N-airs, and it's not like it even hits them. This is pretty much a free Roller, for Inkling. I have like an OCD thing in terms of playstyle, so I get like that when I don't have an answer. Happened versus this Toon Link player at the tournament.


I'm looking to see if I can use Phantasm with actual mobility. I don't like being static.
 
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StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#84
- Again, Dash Attack is just really useful. You can catch his landings a lot, with it. I never really stuff out his aerials with anti-airs of my own (maybe not use to it?), but you have to be pretty fast to catch his fastfalls. If you miss, there's a chance one of those is either a hard punish- or a kill.
Up-Tilt is fairly good at stuffing his aerials, if you can get the timing down. I think it is also possible to Up-B OoS his aerials. It might depend on his spacing, but I think if he spaces above or in your shield, you should be able to. Unless he is very aggressive with aerials, I don't think you can do any other OoS option. A lot of good Foxs go into Up-Tilt on shield and that is too fast to act out of it. You can sometimes Up-smash an overly aggressive Fox, coming down from the platform. Nair should also work, provided you have a read.

- Try your best not to challenge him on the way down...this is very important. You can somewhat beat his U-air attempts, but it's usually not recommended, and likely a bad trade.
Definitely don't. It's just as stupid if not more so, than it was in Smash 4. The first two hits of any juggle, will deal major damage and if you don't DI the third, it will likely be a stock, even if it started from lower percents. Up-smash is similar and is too fast to beat out.
- I'm not too sure how Phantom applies in this matchup because Reflector, but it can likely force a low recovery (hint try to spike).
It doesn't really. You can use the full charge to bait reflectors and Up-B punish them, but that will probably depend on whether the Fox is more campy or aggressive. It can be used to stuff Side-B recoveries and force him to Up-B recover, but that is going to require good timing and a read. I would use it when he has to Side-B far away from the ledge, to prevent any aerial reflection he might do. If you are comfortable with it, you can go offstage and hit him with the horizontal slash, when he has to Side-B, but that will require good timing and being at the proper height.
- Really need to get better at spiking Cloud and Little Mac.
You can try using Nayru's Love as an edgeguard. It will break through Little Mac's super armor and can hit Cloud through his disjoint, especially if you do it from the side. Neither character has any real horizontal momentum on their Up-B, so it is basically an instant KO with little effort. Just be sure to watch for Mac trying to counter it, if he is close enough to the ledge, that whiffing counter won't KO him.

- Similiarly, I used it a few times on the ledge. Didn't get much out of it, but it's definitely something I'd have to work on (actual setups).
It really depends on the character. Most of the time, I do the full charge and then wait and see what my opponent does. The vast majority of the time they jump to the platform, where I can then do the usual harassment. If they hang around in the air too long, I might charge and release the overhead or scoop slashes, depending on the height and time I have to do so. If you do the shield version, that stops a lot of Side-B recoveries. The scoop slashes also hit under the ledge and can hit characters that don't snap to it.
- Nayru's is still godlike. Top 5 move, easy. You stuff out a ton of non-disjointed approaches, and it even beats out Little Mac before he throws out Smash attacks. It's also not a bad move to cover a couple of options, assuming i
If you time the invincibility just right, you can beat disjoints as well. You won't necessarily hit or punish them, but it can be useful if they try to catch your landing with an Fsmash(Chrom,Ganon, etc).
I'm looking to see if I can use Phantasm with actual mobility. I don't like being static.
Try experimenting with full hop aerial charges. You can be somewhat mobile and still hit your opponent at a distance. It might be useful for hitting characters with huge disjoints in the air, like Marth etc. Mostly you'll probably want to use it on shield campers or offstage.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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#85
1/28/19

- Starting to see arguably the biggest flaw in my play, and that is trying to force myself out of a disadvantage (i.e getting juggled). When I try to land back, there are a lot of times I try landing close to my opponent and pretty much always either try to land with an aerial or contest an upcoming one. This is especially true when trying to get back on stage from a ledge jump, and I find myself getting consistently killed by stuff like Sonic and Wario's B-Air for getting greedy.
- Similiarly, trying to extend a follow-up beyond a true combo gets me killed when I try to make the most of my own lead. Have to stick with the initial gameplan, which is to dash back and try to find actual openings, rather than getting desperate and forcing them.
- Starting to use a lot more FF Kick when landing. This thing has like 25+ frames when you do it out of a rising SH, but I get the feeling you get less landing lag when you fastfall it, and it also because kind of easier to space and drift away when you get a shield. A decent bit of surprise kills, out of it.
- Still gotta measure vertical vs. horizontal better. When I do U-air juggles, instead of following up with N-air shark people off of platforms, I keep U-Airing like a dumbass and get B-air'd, or something. It's a lot more annoying than it should be, and it's likely the cornerstone of our jugglegame.
- I don't think I'm using U-Tilt nearly as much as I should.
- Started tomohawk grabbing a bit. It definitely works when they shield a lot, and I should've tried it more.
- Starting to feel D-Throw > U-air (with the right DI) is likely a true combo. I've been getting it a lot, and I'm killing people anywhere from 80-90...I even got it on Pichu at 65 or so for a kill two or three times. Even if it misses, there's a chance you can setup for a frametrap if you can read their DI afterwards.
- Somewhat working on D-Throw > Kick at low percents for neutral/upwards DI. I've been getting it a lot in Training Mode, but was constantly failing it against a real player.
- Used a bit of Phantom a bit. Always at the ledge, however miniscule. I liked how this player uses it. That would be something I'd aim for.
- Combos are becoming more second nature. There's a combo such as D-air > Up-B at higher percents, and I did it like 3 times today. It's an insane combo to get off of Parry on a platform, which is pretty much how I always get it.
 
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Deleted member 189823

Guest
#86
1/29 & 30/19

Been playing the Pichu matchup a lot.

- First things first, I need to stop panic spotdodging like a dumbass (let alone at kill percent...). Kid doesn't exactly have a kill thow, so you kind of don't mind sitting in shield a bit.
- Similiarly, I feel pretty safe on a platform or in the air when he can't kill me that well there. I think even F-Air on one of the platforms at 150+% still failed to kill. I also Parry a lot more on platforms, so there's that.
- If he starts F-Tilt spamming for a kill, he can't do it as free. I Up-B'd OoS through one of those (close as possible), or you could even F-Smash if you can take a step back.
- Similiar with U-Tilt spam on shield. I found myself spotdodging > Up-B in-between them. It's a really fast move, but it doesn't seem hard to pull off.
- At kill percents, there's a chance he'll look for dragdown F/B-Air as a quicker and reliable kill option. Try to react and jump out of it (or airdodge, as last resort). I had trouble reacting to it, and thought it was true.
- If he catches you into a combo at 0, try to go to Nayru's as fast as you can. Only works for like the first 1-2 hits. The invincibility might've gotten me through, even when airdodge failed.
- Nayru's just feels amazing in this matchup as a whole. You can beat out a ton of his approaches, assuming they're neither disjointed nor hit a blindspot.
- D-Throw > U-Air kills at like 65. May or may not be true, but I have been getting it pretty damn often. With rage, it kills before 60.
- I once complained about hardly ever getting OoS Kicks. Well, I started relying on fastfall Kicks and started getting them a handful. Go with that.
- D-Tilt might be particularly good at this matchup. Not only is it super fast, but it will always hit him. And when it does, you try to make the best out of it (even if it's stuff like D-Tilt > Dash Attack). There's also the ocassional D-Tilt > Kick at 40 for a kill (not sure if true).
- I'm using a lot of D-Air Full Hop mixups in general. It helps to get past when he's trying to bait you into F or D-Smashes. However, you don't want to always challenge him when landing.
- Pivot Grab is also especially good. I think there were a couple of times I just grabbed his F-Air. It's hilarious.
- Our kill throws are godsent in this matchup. I've killed him at like 84 at the ledge, with B-Throw. U-Throw will likely kill at around 110, which isn't that bad.
- U-Tilt is super useful here, granted you have to time them properly. Reverse U-Tilt, especially (something I'm recently working on).
- Starting to charge U-Smash when I predict he'll Quick Attack unto stage. Works really well.
- For low-percent throw combos, I'd probably stick to D-Throw > N-Air unless you perfected D-Throw > Kick on neutral/upwards DI (hint I didn't).
- I should look into punishing projectile lag (and lag in general) more. I'm pretty sure we can punish his T.Jolts with the kind of lag he has...

Non-Pichu/General ****:

- Begun being more aware of my landings and not overcommiting (i.e getting to close to my opponent and getting B-Air'd or F-Smash'd).
- Still have to be faster when approaching at reading shields. If they opt for attacking, then grabbing won't always work (which is what stuff like Dash Attack works for).
- Jump N-Air works a surprising bit for me. I really annoy my opponent's own aerial approaches (granted, at the right angle), and I've been told.
- I should just learn to hold shield in general. I keep spotdodging when my training partner just does Wario N-Air and I end up eating an annoying combo out of it. This is especially deadly when it can lead to kill setups, such as fart.
- I'm still stupid and eat stuff like Wario F-Smash because I can't hold shield apparently.
- Reverse U-Tilt looks to have a lot of potential, and this is especially true against small and fast characters like Pichu and Squirtle.
- Did a weird U-Tilt > U-Air on Pichu. It wasn't at a percent it should've worked, but it went by super fast that my opponent just couldn't react to it (or the appropriate DI to live). Must've killed at like 60 before those two hits.
- I still keep reminding myself to stick to the simple gameplan. Look for opening > Combos (If Applicable) > Reset to Neutral. Very simple, in paper, but I kind of ruin it by trying to force a bigger advantage and end up overcomitting and getting hit by stuff.
- In disadvantage, I still have a bit of my bad habit to try and force myself out by doing things like trying to challenge attacks when landing (Wario's verticals just win 90% of the time).


I think I might be stagnating a bit. I'm definitely noticing habits in game, but I also feel I have to concentrate a lot to 2-stock my partner. If I don't concentrate a lot, he can just beat me. I don't want to have to worry that I'll lose if I just don't play under a certain level...
 
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StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#87
- Starting to see arguably the biggest flaw in my play, and that is trying to force myself out of a disadvantage (i.e getting juggled). When I try to land back, there are a lot of times I try landing close to my opponent and pretty much always either try to land with an aerial or contest an upcoming one. This is especially true when trying to get back on stage from a ledge jump, and I find myself getting consistently killed by stuff like Sonic and Wario's B-Air for getting greedy.
Zelda's disadvantage is really terrible and it's a nightmare to get back on stage, against fast characters. I don't think that's a flaw of yours, more so Zelda's. It takes lots of mind games and trickery to make it back on stage, against fast characters and I'm not sure it's possible at all against Sonic or Lucina, unless the player really screws up.
- Starting to use a lot more FF Kick when landing. This thing has like 25+ frames when you do it out of a rising SH, but I get the feeling you get less landing lag when you fastfall it, and it also because kind of easier to space and drift away when you get a shield. A decent bit of surprise kills, out of it.
It might just be that she hits the ground immediately, as opposed to gently floating to the ground when short hopped. It might be easier to retreat, if you hit the sweet-spot on shield, due to increased shield stun. I'm not familiar with the exact numbers.
- Starting to feel D-Throw > U-air (with the right DI) is likely a true combo. I've been getting it a lot, and I'm killing people anywhere from 80-90...I even got it on Pichu at 65 or so for a kill two or three times. Even if it misses, there's a chance you can setup for a frametrap if you can read their DI afterwards.
- Somewhat working on D-Throw > Kick at low percents for neutral/upwards DI. I've been getting it a lot in Training Mode, but was constantly failing it against a real player.
I really don't think hardly any of her throw combos are true. It seems to me players and characters with really good DI, can always DI out of her throw combos at any percent.
- Used a bit of Phantom a bit. Always at the ledge, however miniscule. I liked how this player uses it. That would be something I'd aim for.
He used it how you should in those particular MUs. I think he needs to work on his edgeguards and ledge traps, as he just seemed to charge it and hope he got a two frame. I understand not wanting to go out there and potentially risk whiffing and having the tables turned, especially with Zelda's terrible time getting back, but I feel like he let his opponent get back a little too freely. He should have tried timing Nayru's Love, to stage spike into the Phantom's slash.

- I once complained about hardly ever getting OoS Kicks. Well, I started relying on fastfall Kicks and started getting them a handful. Go with that.
If you can micro space around your opponents attack, it's really amazing. I've gotten a KO at 80, hopping over an Fsmash and punishing with a surprise FF Bair, plenty of times.
- D-Tilt might be particularly good at this matchup. Not only is it super fast, but it will always hit him. And when it does, you try to make the best out of it (even if it's stuff like D-Tilt > Dash Attack). There's also the ocassional D-Tilt > Kick at 40 for a kill (not sure if true).
I honestly feel like D-Tilt is only good for things like hitting small characters. It seems to have limited uses otherwise.

- Jump N-Air works a surprising bit for me. I really annoy my opponent's own aerial approaches (granted, at the right angle), and I've been told.
- I should just learn to hold shield in general. I keep spotdodging when my training partner just does Wario N-Air and I end up eating an annoying combo out of it. This is especially deadly when it can lead to kill setups, such
That's what I do a lot and have almost since the beginning. Nair is an underrated neutral tool, it feels like. Shielding is pretty good with her OoS shield stuff, just be careful against characters with good dash grabs.
- Did a weird U-Tilt > U-Air on Pichu. It wasn't at a percent it should've worked, but it went by super fast that my opponent just couldn't react to it (or the appropriate DI to live). Must've killed at like 60 before those two hits.
It's not necessarily true, but I feel like if done fast enough, it's really difficult for your opponent to escape it, given it's large hitbox, they need some pretty good reaction time and a fast character.
- In disadvantage, I still have a bit of my bad habit to try and force myself out by doing things like trying to challenge attacks when landing (Wario's verticals just win 90% of the time).
With Wario specifically, I find it is better to make him attack first, then punish with Zelda's disjoints. Wario is really fast, but lacks disjoints, so if you can make him commit, you can challenge and beat his attacks.

If you do find yourself in disadvantage, maybe try to bait an attack by moving away from your opponent and then see if you can time Nayru and hit them out of it. Won't work all the time and they will try baiting it out after a while, but might be a good mix-up.
I think I might be stagnating a bit. I'm definitely noticing habits in game, but I also feel I have to concentrate a lot to 2-stock my partner. If I don't concentrate a lot, he can just beat me. I don't want to have to worry that I'll lose if I just don't play under a certain level...
If you are noticing habits in the middle of playing, that means you are comfortable with things now and are probably transitioning to another stage. We all develop habits, so that's not necessarily a bad thing, but if you are being punished for them, then just sit and think about those situations and what else you might do in them. Noticing them means you have reached the ceiling for your current play and it's time to refine it, by changing the ones that don't work and discovering different sides that you overlooked previously.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
#88
Zelda's disadvantage is really terrible and it's a nightmare to get back on stage, against fast characters. I don't think that's a flaw of yours, more so Zelda's. It takes lots of mind games and trickery to make it back on stage, against fast characters and I'm not sure it's possible at all against Sonic or Lucina, unless the player really screws up.
I honestly don't think it's that bad, and it's mostly me for most of it. ZeRo says most characters can struggle to land, and that's it not always a one-character thing. I make it fine, in spite of that. It's just a matter of not doing things rushed in terms of resetting back to neutral.

It might just be that she hits the ground immediately, as opposed to gently floating to the ground when short hopped. It might be easier to retreat, if you hit the sweet-spot on shield, due to increased shield stun. I'm not familiar with the exact numbers.
I'm telling you, it's really good once you get your aim down. Saw ven do it against VoiD where he punished an F-Smash by just jumping over it. I realise I hardly ever incorporated FHs into my play, so I started doing them. Started getting Kicks against Pichu a lot more.

I really don't think hardly any of her throw combos are true. It seems to me players and characters with really good DI, can always DI out of her throw combos at any percent.
We definitely have them. You can tell by playing someone that just kind of tries to mash out of them by airdodging. I actually even asked my partner if he tried airdodging out of D-Throw > U-Air, and it looks like he does.

If an opponent is airdodging out of stuff, chances are I'm not being fast enough.

He used it how you should in those particular MUs. I think he needs to work on his edgeguards and ledge traps, as he just seemed to charge it and hope he got a two frame. I understand not wanting to go out there and potentially risk whiffing and having the tables turned, especially with Zelda's terrible time getting back, but I feel like he let his opponent get back a little too freely. He should have tried timing Nayru's Love, to stage spike into the Phantom's slash.
I don't think he's an absolute remarkable player, but I just like the way he uses it in that he's not just standing in place and being campy with it. Like someone like ven, who uses it out of stuff like short hop back > sometimes half charge.

Do you think there's any actual uses to the other phases before full-charge? I guess you can use it to space out swords, like this certain Japanese player. He was pretty fast with them, and not necessarily campy and stalling. If you don't know about him, I'll try and look him up, afterwards.


I honestly feel like D-Tilt is only good for things like hitting small characters. It seems to have limited uses otherwise.
I'm using it a lot more, in general. I feel you can somewhat spam it on someone's shield and eventually catch a reaction, whether it's to roll behind you, or even if it does hit and doesn't combo to Kick right away, you can try reading stuff like a jump into U-Air or Kick.

I think we should all exploit D-Tilt and learn D-Tilt > Kick. I still get it on stuff like Pichu at like 80 when my opponent just isn't expecting it.

If you do find yourself in disadvantage, maybe try to bait an attack by moving away from your opponent and then see if you can time Nayru and hit them out of it. Won't work all the time and they will try baiting it out after a while, but might be a good mix-up.
yeh I'll look into it

If you are noticing habits in the middle of playing, that means you are comfortable with things now and are probably transitioning to another stage. We all develop habits, so that's not necessarily a bad thing, but if you are being punished for them, then just sit and think about those situations and what else you might do in them. Noticing them means you have reached the ceiling for your current play and it's time to refine it, by changing the ones that don't work and discovering different sides that you overlooked previously.
Simply noticing stuff in-game is actually a decent step forward, if you ask me. I use to autopilot stuff to the point I wouldn't know why X thing happened. I would just shrug it off, by telling myself "just stuff that happens" or "I was just playing bad"...and this is stuff that happens pretty regularly, so I feel I should probably save my worst plays so stuff like that doesn't happen ever again.


We came back from our weekly tonight, and I got a fair bit of friendlies. I won like 80-90% of them, but I realise I could've played better than I did. Since it was Quad Strike, I wasn't interested in the tournament. I wanted a "normal" tournament. ): I still have the ego monster in me...I like surprising people every time I Parry stuff, but I can't let that get to me. Parries are more secondnature to me, at this point. I can't think about them...I just have to "feel" it. I think part of the reason people struggle with it, is because they're trying to think about doing it. You just have to let go (literally).

I'm bad. I'm a bad, terrible player.
 

Dcas

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Messages
324
#89
I honestly don't think it's that bad, and it's mostly me for most of it. ZeRo says most characters can struggle to land, and that's it not always a one-character thing. I make it fine, in spite of that. It's just a matter of not doing things rushed in terms of resetting back to neutral.


I'm telling you, it's really good once you get your aim down. Saw ven do it against VoiD where he punished an F-Smash by just jumping over it. I realise I hardly ever incorporated FHs into my play, so I started doing them. Started getting Kicks against Pichu a lot more.


We definitely have them. You can tell by playing someone that just kind of tries to mash out of them by airdodging. I actually even asked my partner if he tried airdodging out of D-Throw > U-Air, and it looks like he does.

If an opponent is airdodging out of stuff, chances are I'm not being fast enough.


I don't think he's an absolute remarkable player, but I just like the way he uses it in that he's not just standing in place and being campy with it. Like someone like ven, who uses it out of stuff like short hop back > sometimes half charge.

Do you think there's any actual uses to the other phases before full-charge? I guess you can use it to space out swords, like this certain Japanese player. He was pretty fast with them, and not necessarily campy and stalling. If you don't know about him, I'll try and look him up, afterwards.



I'm using it a lot more, in general. I feel you can somewhat spam it on someone's shield and eventually catch a reaction, whether it's to roll behind you, or even if it does hit and doesn't combo to Kick right away, you can try reading stuff like a jump into U-Air or Kick.

I think we should all exploit D-Tilt and learn D-Tilt > Kick. I still get it on stuff like Pichu at like 80 when my opponent just isn't expecting it.


yeh I'll look into it


Simply noticing stuff in-game is actually a decent step forward, if you ask me. I use to autopilot stuff to the point I wouldn't know why X thing happened. I would just shrug it off, by telling myself "just stuff that happens" or "I was just playing bad"...and this is stuff that happens pretty regularly, so I feel I should probably save my worst plays so stuff like that doesn't happen ever again.


We came back from our weekly tonight, and I got a fair bit of friendlies. I won like 80-90% of them, but I realise I could've played better than I did. Since it was Quad Strike, I wasn't interested in the tournament. I wanted a "normal" tournament. ): I still have the ego monster in me...I like surprising people every time I Parry stuff, but I can't let that get to me. Parries are more secondnature to me, at this point. I can't think about them...I just have to "feel" it. I think part of the reason people struggle with it, is because they're trying to think about doing it. You just have to let go (literally).

I'm bad. I'm a bad, terrible player.
Zelda has like top 10-15 disadvantage state in the game, she is floaty, meaty hitbox, light, not a single reliable landing tool. As some people have said, zelda overall has a lot of trouble landing and getting out of pressure vs fast characters such as greninja, fox,etc. Imo, if possible get a secondary for those matches and keep zelda for the others.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
#90
Zelda has like top 10-15 disadvantage state in the game, she is floaty, meaty hitbox, light, not a single reliable landing tool. As some people have said, zelda overall has a lot of trouble landing and getting out of pressure vs fast characters such as greninja, fox,etc. Imo, if possible get a secondary for those matches and keep zelda for the others.
I'm all Zelda, d00d.

Also, why you quote the whole damn thing. LOL
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
#91
Posting matches later, but I first want to get back to Aussie since I never game him a proper critique like I said I would.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
#92
2/10/19

After the weekly's grand dissapointment, I manage to get back on my feet- and better than before, surprisingly. It's no surprise I lost the way I did, considering how obvious my mistakes were (aka you do not challenge a ****ing sword head-on). And on the plus side, my friend is adding Lucina unto his arsenal. I learned a ton about the matchup, and also stuff like Kirby.

In spite of my tournament dissappointment, I've been doing really well in friendlies.


- My friend is very shield-heavy, and it took me a while to realise that. Took me getting everyone of my Dash Attacks punished with shield grab to just realise, "hey, I should just grab". Then I started grabbing, and yeah. Sounds stupid, but it's giving me a lot more confidence in it, as well as our grab game.
- Really starting to think D-Tilt > Kick is borderline broken. Getting that **** anywhere from 50-70 and killing right off of it. Sometimes I'm literally poking on someone's shield 2-3 times in a row for the actual confirm. Granted, there were a couple of times it missed whereas it'd be out of really far DI away or an airdodge, but I'm very convinced it's true if we're really fast with it and buffer. I'd consider making a video of the many, many times I've been landing it. Even did it like three times in a match... we Smash 4 Diddy Kong, now.
-I've actually been using Phantom, and to an alright success rate. My "traps" aren't anything crazy, but a good example is charging at the ledge and covering ledge roll with a potential F-Smash. My opponent tried airdodging in to avoid the Phantom hit, only to get hit by my F-Smash. Did this on a few ocassions, though I'm still very green at this. I think I should really work on catching jumps, and I'm pretty set.
- In the past few days, I've been passively working on RAR Phantom. I can get it down, though I tend to forget I have it, as well as not being all that perfect at it just yet. I'm still very interested in the first phases of the charge, which I can see acting as a quick disjoint-like barrier against swords. S StoicPhantom , you might find something interesting out of this, or at least the theory of it.
- Sometimes, I feel we can get a lot out of simply spamming N-Air. N-Air's extremely good at catching blindspots, jumps and aerials before they come out. I still think it's really good for sharking platforms and stuff...I'm seriously not seeing this thing where they fall off. It's an amazing move.
- Very recently learned reverse U-Tilt. Pretty much perfected, yesterday. It's really deceptive, and it adds a lot of pressure when mixed in with N-Air.
- Looks like you can't catch stuff like Lucina and lighter characters with Kick (DI away) out of D-Throw around 70 and above. This is no surprise to a lot of people, but I just thought it was possible by buffering and being really fast at it. Granted, I was doing this to Wario. I also had trouble punishing the very obvious airdodge to avoid it, but I eventually landed a Kick.
- I got a lot better at the Lucina matchup when I realise she can't really kill me all that well if I start shielding her bull****. Her grab doesn't kill until like 160 (and actually failed above that, fresh). You're not going to be eating random Smash attacks if you're being smart, and her normals don't kill anywhere as well as people think (when you DI, anyway).
- I really need input on Up-B. Not getting anywhere as much as I should be, and I don't know if it has really bad range, or I just suck at OoS'ing it. Started thinking I might be subconciously dropping shield instead (same with D-Air OoS). That could be a reason. I tried with the shield tilt > mash B thing, and it seemed to work, but it randomly didn't work on some ocassions. This is seriously a broken move, so someone needs input on this.
- We have absolutely insane kill confirms, and we should do our best to perfect them. D-Tilt & D-Air combos are just beast, and I'm pretty sure they're true combos.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#93
I honestly don't think it's that bad, and it's mostly me for most of it. ZeRo says most characters can struggle to land, and that's it not always a one-character thing. I make it fine, in spite of that. It's just a matter of not doing things rushed in terms of resetting back to neutral.
Fair enough, but I just feel like Zelda has some coverage gaps in her aerials that can be exploited. I've gotten fairly good at ledge mixups, but there are a few MUs that seem to cover every option simultaneously and I feel that I have to rely on my opponent making a mistake(Shulk, Palutena, Lucina, Sonic, Wolf, etc).

I'm telling you, it's really good once you get your aim down. Saw ven do it against VoiD where he punished an F-Smash by just jumping over it. I realise I hardly ever incorporated FHs into my play, so I started doing them. Started getting Kicks against Pichu a lot more.
Oh, I don't doubt that. I do that to K. Rool all the time.

We definitely have them. You can tell by playing someone that just kind of tries to mash out of them by airdodging. I actually even asked my partner if he tried airdodging out of D-Throw > U-Air, and it looks like he does.

If an opponent is airdodging out of stuff, chances are I'm not being fast enough.
I don't know, I've seen some players and characters with really good DI, get to the far edge of the bottom platform, out of a low percent D-throw from center stage. They don't even seem to need to air-dodge, they can just act before I reach them. I might not be doing it fast enough and don't D-throw often enough to really be definitive on that, though.

Do you think there's any actual uses to the other phases before full-charge? I guess you can use it to space out swords, like this certain Japanese player. He was pretty fast with them, and not necessarily campy and stalling. If you don't know about him, I'll try and look him up, afterwards.
I do. Other than using as a longer short ranged attack, it can be used as a preemptive attack on the ground to stop charges and the overhead slash is pretty good for stopping aerial advances. You can use them to extend combos and of course edgeguard, if they are above the ledge. The kick(charge 1) can be good for hitting small characters and the punch(charge 2) is good for stopping short hop advances. Granted, you have to be quick for those and I probably don't use them as much as I could. I'm sure there will be future tech and applications that haven't been discovered yet.

Parries are more secondnature to me, at this point. I can't think about them...I just have to "feel" it. I think part of the reason people struggle with it, is because they're trying to think about doing it. You just have to let go (literally).
That might be my problem. I parry better when I don't have time to think about it, but if I do have time, I can't really stop myself from thinking about it lol.

2/10/19

After the weekly's grand dissapointment, I manage to get back on my feet- and better than before, surprisingly. It's no surprise I lost the way I did, considering how obvious my mistakes were (aka you do not challenge a ****ing sword head-on). And on the plus side, my friend is adding Lucina unto his arsenal. I learned a ton about the matchup, and also stuff like Kirby.
I don't run into many Lucina's with Zelda for some reason. With other characters all the time, but with Zelda it's kind of rare. Definitely need more experience in that MU.

And is it me or is Kirby's spam, annoying and kind of difficult to get through? People keep saying he is one of the worst characters in the game and I can kind of see that, but I have more difficulty than I should, for supposedly one of the worst characters in the game. I still win, but it is a greater struggle than I feel it should be. Might just be an online thing.
- Really starting to think D-Tilt > Kick is borderline broken. Getting that **** anywhere from 50-70 and killing right off of it. Sometimes I'm literally poking on someone's shield 2-3 times in a row for the actual confirm. Granted, there were a couple of times it missed whereas it'd be out of really far DI away or an airdodge, but I'm very convinced it's true if we're really fast with it and buffer. I'd consider making a video of the many, many times I've been landing it. Even did it like three times in a match... we Smash 4 Diddy Kong, now.
How are you getting kills that early, off of it? I did that on a Mario not too long ago near the ledge at 50 and it didn't KO. I've done that to other characters that were lighter or at higher percents and don't seem to get any KOs, with proper DI on their part.

Although, Quickplay doesn't lend to many balanced stages, so it might be a blast zone difference. I should probably stop procrastinating and try Arenas, but having wait times isn't really appealing to me. If we actually can KO, even with proper DI on our opponent's part, that is pretty broken and we will have to hope it flies under the radar of any future patch.
-I've actually been using Phantom, and to an alright success rate. My "traps" aren't anything crazy, but a good example is charging at the ledge and covering ledge roll with a potential F-Smash. My opponent tried airdodging in to avoid the Phantom hit, only to get hit by my F-Smash. Did this on a few ocassions, though I'm still very green at this. I think I should really work on catching jumps, and I'm pretty set.
Even simple ones are really effective and it takes quite a lot to successfully escape. My friend asked me how to counter Phantom with Falcon and I struggled to really give a good answer, other than jump over it, because there isn't a lot you can do, if you don't have tools to counter it.
- In the past few days, I've been passively working on RAR Phantom. I can get it down, though I tend to forget I have it, as well as not being all that perfect at it just yet. I'm still very interested in the first phases of the charge, which I can see acting as a quick disjoint-like barrier against swords. S StoicPhantom , you might find something interesting out of this, or at least the theory of it.
I've played with spacing the early charges, but not enough to really flesh things out. RAR Phantom is an interesting idea and has led me to another interesting idea. I wonder if it might be less telegraphed to wavebounce, instead of RAR. Maybe have a mixup between the two, to keep our opponents guessing whether they should chase or hang back.

I've developed some pain and inflammation in my hands and tendons, so I'm forcing myself to take a break, but I'll try those out when I'm back. Could definitely expand Phantom's meta.
- Sometimes, I feel we can get a lot out of simply spamming N-Air. N-Air's extremely good at catching blindspots, jumps and aerials before they come out. I still think it's really good for sharking platforms and stuff...I'm seriously not seeing this thing where they fall off. It's an amazing move.
It is pretty great. I think people are accidentally DIing too far out of it.
- Very recently learned reverse U-Tilt. Pretty much perfected, yesterday. It's really deceptive, and it adds a lot of pressure when mixed in with N-Air.
I've done it a few times and it worked great, so I should probably work on it more.
- Looks like you can't catch stuff like Lucina and lighter characters with Kick (DI away) out of D-Throw around 70 and above. This is no surprise to a lot of people, but I just thought it was possible by buffering and being really fast at it. Granted, I was doing this to Wario. I also had trouble punishing the very obvious airdodge to avoid it, but I eventually landed a Kick.
Their DI is ridiculous and I have that happen even on lower percents.
- I got a lot better at the Lucina matchup when I realise she can't really kill me all that well if I start shielding her bull****. Her grab doesn't kill until like 160 (and actually failed above that, fresh). You're not going to be eating random Smash attacks if you're being smart, and her normals don't kill anywhere as well as people think (when you DI, anyway).
That's a lot of characters, to be honest. Once I realized that, Zelda's light weight didn't bother me as much. Still annoying when you do get hit by a random easy KO option, though.
- I really need input on Up-B. Not getting anywhere as much as I should be, and I don't know if it has really bad range, or I just suck at OoS'ing it. Started thinking I might be subconciously dropping shield instead (same with D-Air OoS). That could be a reason. I tried with the shield tilt > mash B thing, and it seemed to work, but it randomly didn't work on some ocassions. This is seriously a broken move, so someone needs input on this.
I just Up-B without dropping shield or doing the mash thing. Just got to work on the timing, on the ones you can punish. And definitely don't drop shield, as the lag on it, is now 11 frames IIRC.
- We have absolutely insane kill confirms, and we should do our best to perfect them. D-Tilt & D-Air combos are just beast, and I'm pretty sure they're true combos.
Agreed. KOed a Palutena at 50 with a sour-spot Dair->Up-B. I don't know if the sour-spot is true, but it made her stagger and I was able to connect the Up-B. Might be worth looking into, since sour-spots can have all sorts of weird tripping and staggering shenanigans.

The sweet-spot version is amazing though and I'm working on doing it under pressure better.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
#94
I don't know, I've seen some players and characters with really good DI, get to the far edge of the bottom platform, out of a low percent D-throw from center stage. They don't even seem to need to air-dodge, they can just act before I reach them. I might not be doing it fast enough and don't D-throw often enough to really be definitive on that, though.
You've mention it, but I've literally never seen- or had it happen on my own case. There's only so far they can DI, and let alone at 0%. The farthest they tend to escape is just out of our reach (like sourspotting a Kick), but then there are times it's just obvious it won't land. If it doesn't land and it's likely, chances are I'm not being fast enough.

Emphasis on fast. A few of Zelda's combo rely on that...they aren't as free as they look.

And is it me or is Kirby's spam, annoying and kind of difficult to get through? People keep saying he is one of the worst characters in the game and I can kind of see that, but I have more difficulty than I should, for supposedly one of the worst characters in the game. I still win, but it is a greater struggle than I feel it should be. Might just be an online thing.
Just because he's one of the worst/actual worst of the game doesn't mean he's bad, and let alone translate that way into the Zelda matchup. He has a few things that make it really annoying, like B-Air walls, U-Tilt spam, his Grab (solid kill throw and some combos) and I've even had him run up and U-Smash me ducking under my F-Smash.

How are you getting kills that early, off of it? I did that on a Mario not too long ago near the ledge at 50 and it didn't KO. I've done that to other characters that were lighter or at higher percents and don't seem to get any KOs, with proper DI on their part.
It depends on everything, from stage, to DI and to character etc. But it still kills extremely well at around that percent, and I usually aim to do it at the ledge, anyway. I used to think it was a bad move in neutral, but there are times I just poke it on someone's shield, or literally even just throw it out and I might duck under or something or whatever. I realise I wasn't using it enough, and I just started making a habit out of using it a lot more, and that's how I got it down. You can also do Jab 1 > D-Tilt, like I used it. It's a soft shield poke, but it doesn't mean they can't shieldgrab you at times.

I'm tempted to do a small compilation on just D-Tilt > Kick, to show how broken it is. There are matches where I literally get every kill off of it. I have like 2-3 matches where I get the three kills off of it, and I think it's in one of those videos I uploaded.

Although, Quickplay doesn't lend to many balanced stages, so it might be a blast zone difference. I should probably stop procrastinating and try Arenas, but having wait times isn't really appealing to me. If we actually can KO, even with proper DI on our opponent's part, that is pretty broken and we will have to hope it flies under the radar of any future patch.
Doubt it'd be patched. You still need to react, and it's not exactly the safest thing in the world to run around spamming D-Tilt.

And I disagree. I think you should go on Discord chats and look up Arena battles. There's a much bigger chance you'll face competent people a lot more often, and this doesn't always mean you'll have to wait if you just ask the person for a 1-1.

I've developed some pain and inflammation in my hands and tendons, so I'm forcing myself to take a break, but I'll try those out when I'm back. Could definitely expand Phantom's meta.
I'm no stranger to that, and especially with the way I play. I've always had it, but it's not like having a day in-between doesn't help.

http://www.1-hp.org/category/1hpblog/exerciseforgamers/playmorehurtless/


It is pretty great. I think people are accidentally DIing too far out of it.
Talking about N-Air, I was practicing some N-Air strings at 0. They seem very simple, but I had trouble getting more than 2 on Luigi. I tried on Inkling, and I could get about 3-4 of them. It really makes you rethink N-Air. You kind of take it for granted, but you can actually set up an extra 1-2 of those (and/or even a Kick) by properly managing the DI.

That's a lot of characters, to be honest. Once I realized that, Zelda's light weight didn't bother me as much. Still annoying when you do get hit by a random easy KO option, though.
I consistently survive up until about 160, not even joking. Hence, I tend to joke about Zelda being a heavy. My friend is starting to drop Inkling because he can't kill without landing a Roller or a random Smash attack. Even Pichu is a lot less threatening if you stay in the air. N-Air/B/F-Air won't kill you until like 150-160 with good DI.

I just Up-B without dropping shield or doing the mash thing. Just got to work on the timing, on the ones you can punish. And definitely don't drop shield, as the lag on it, is now 11 frames IIRC.
Yeah, I've been looking into it and working on it. I realise doing the manual Up-B OoS isn't so hard if you just slide from X > B (well, in this case the Nintendo controller's A button). Short buttons really help.

I think there's a chance we could Up-B through stuff like Cloud's F-Smash and Cross Slash if you Parry their first hit.


Agreed. KOed a Palutena at 50 with a sour-spot Dair->Up-B. I don't know if the sour-spot is true, but it made her stagger and I was able to connect the Up-B. Might be worth looking into, since sour-spots can have all sorts of weird tripping and staggering shenanigans.

The sweet-spot version is amazing though and I'm working on doing it under pressure better.
Stomp > Kills a lot earlier, and especially at the edge. They won't die to an Up-B at 70 if they're DI'ing properly.

yeh, I forget about the tripping thing.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#95
You've mention it, but I've literally never seen- or had it happen on my own case. There's only so far they can DI, and let alone at 0%. The farthest they tend to escape is just out of our reach (like sourspotting a Kick), but then there are times it's just obvious it won't land. If it doesn't land and it's likely, chances are I'm not being fast enough.

Emphasis on fast. A few of Zelda's combo rely on that...they aren't as free as they look.
It's rare, but I have seen it happen. I'll try see if I can find some replays, but I have a feeling they got wiped with the patch. I don't think every character can do it, just those with impeccable DI. It's rare that I find someone with that good of DI, so probably not that relevant. I'll practice and experiment, though.

Just because he's one of the worst/actual worst of the game doesn't mean he's bad, and let alone translate that way into the Zelda matchup. He has a few things that make it really annoying, like B-Air walls, U-Tilt spam, his Grab (solid kill throw and some combos) and I've even had him run up and U-Smash me ducking under my F-Smash.
Yeah, that is probably true. He definitely is annoying.


It depends on everything, from stage, to DI and to character etc. But it still kills extremely well at around that percent, and I usually aim to do it at the ledge, anyway. I used to think it was a bad move in neutral, but there are times I just poke it on someone's shield, or literally even just throw it out and I might duck under or something or whatever. I realise I wasn't using it enough, and I just started making a habit out of using it a lot more, and that's how I got it down. You can also do Jab 1 > D-Tilt, like I used it. It's a soft shield poke, but it doesn't mean they can't shieldgrab you at times.
I'll definitely practice it more. It's just difficult to incorporate something into your play, when you've ignored it for so long.

Doubt it'd be patched. You still need to react, and it's not exactly the safest thing in the world to run around spamming D-Tilt.

And I disagree. I think you should go on Discord chats and look up Arena battles. There's a much bigger chance you'll face competent people a lot more often, and this doesn't always mean you'll have to wait if you just ask the person for a 1-1.
I hope not. I can't think of any other combo that powerful and the ones that were, got patched(Chrom). There isn't very many kill combos in the first place and I can't think of one that can kill at sub-100. Of course Zelda is rare, so it might fly under the radar.

I'll think about the Arena thing. I'm just lazy, so may end up going the quick option again.

I'm no stranger to that, and especially with the way I play. I've always had it, but it's not like having a day in-between doesn't help.

http://www.1-hp.org/category/1hpblog/exerciseforgamers/playmorehurtless/
Was going to look this up, so thanks for the link. I moved to a more ergonomic chair and did some of those stretches, after my session today and it mitigated a fair amount of my symptoms. Still need to take breaks more often.

Talking about N-Air, I was practicing some N-Air strings at 0. They seem very simple, but I had trouble getting more than 2 on Luigi. I tried on Inkling, and I could get about 3-4 of them. It really makes you rethink N-Air. You kind of take it for granted, but you can actually set up an extra 1-2 of those (and/or even a Kick) by properly managing the DI.
I've only ever managed to get two on anyone. I did get a Kick out of Nair once, at midish percents, but thought it was a fluke, since I had trouble replicating it. Maybe I need to look into that more.

I consistently survive up until about 160, not even joking. Hence, I tend to joke about Zelda being a heavy. My friend is starting to drop Inkling because he can't kill without landing a Roller or a random Smash attack. Even Pichu is a lot less threatening if you stay in the air. N-Air/B/F-Air won't kill you until like 150-160 with good DI.
No, I get what you mean. She can live much longer than you would think, given her weight. Although, as mains of a light character, we kind of have to get good at avoiding KOs, by necessity.

Your friend should try Roy. He might seem inferior to Chrom at first, due to the sour-spots, but those sour-spots might be better in the long run, because he can use them to combo into a KO at high percents. This allows him to play his oppressive neutral until high percents, where he just needs to land a sour-spot Fair/Nair into Bair or something similar. That, combined with his better recovery, makes his MU more difficult than Chrom's.

I think there's a chance we could Up-B through stuff like Cloud's F-Smash and Cross Slash if you Parry their first hit.
I don't know if the parry frames last all the way through Fsmash, I guess I will have to look that up. I can't remember if the ridiculous shield stun is on the first or the last hit. If it's on the last, you could parry the last hit and that should work.

Normal Cross Slash won't work well, since he can cancel it and that would not be good if he rolls or shields. The Limit version I'm not sure. Fair is frame 5 I believe and Up-B is frame 6. You can Fair the Limit version with good timing, but I don't know if that one frame will make the difference, if he buffers a roll or something.

Stomp > Kills a lot earlier, and especially at the edge. They won't die to an Up-B at 70 if they're DI'ing properly.

yeh, I forget about the tripping thing.
I think they still will even with proper DI, as long as they aren't heavy and you do it at center stage. I can usually get KOs around there if they aren't Chrom levels or above. Not sure about Marth levels, but anyone under it should work. Although it would be better to Kick at the ledge, yeah.

I still don't know how the tripping thing works. It almost seems random and I can't find any pattern. Might need to test more, but if it is random, then it's not going to be very consistent or useful.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
#96
new entry because **** it

- I realise that when I'm not "playing good", I'm kind of not good at all. Like, it only takes a player my own skill to get recked if I let my guard. This should absolutely not happen. Consistency makes a good player. What am I, if I'm one day beating some of the best people, but then losing to really bad people another? No more "oh I was just playing bad and getting hit by literally everything". It's the delusional thing I always told myself to excuse playing ****ty.

No more of that.

- My U-Airs have been kind of iffy. I mean, I don't expect them to land half the time, but you're also partly using it them to condition your opponent to airdodge or into a worse position in general. I usually U-Air more than I should, and by the time they're close to landing and approaching the floor/platform, that's when I should switch to something like N-Air or U-Tilt.

Zelda's air speed isn't amazing, but this isn't much of an excuse. As long as you're following aerial drift properly, it's likely you should be getting something out of it, most of the time.

- N-Air is still amazing. I'm even using it to catch Lucina's jumps up close, now (I have a match or two on that, later on...).

- My Up-Bs OoS still suck. I keep hitting Jump too early, and I can't seem to subconciously do the X > A slide without thinking it (Jump > B, in my case).

- Should totally learn to Parry the last hit of a couple multihits, by now. Really useful in stuff like Lucina, Pichu and Kirby matchups.

- Zelda is seriously that much faster when you foxthrot.

- I'm starting to incorporate ****ing Wavelands into my play. I have some stuff in mind, but it's mostly just limited to D-Throw > airdodge read into platform > regrab D-Throw > stuff. I messed up a couple of kills that could've gone down as early as 50.

Makes it that much more fun to play on platforms, and especially things like Yoshi's Island. Hell, you kind of want there to airdodge so you can get a free regrab out of it, even if it's something like a N-Air.

- Talking about D-Throw, you should be able to get something out of it if they're just DI'ing out of U-Air. Your best bet is for them to airdodge, and I really need to get better at landing a Kick (or literally anything) out of it.

- Still dropping a lot of my D-Air > Kicks. It's not even like they're airdodging or DI'ing. The Kicks are usually too close.

- Lowkey starting to realise I can pretty much just dash dance back at forth waiting at the ledge and react to most options like that. F-Smash or Grab, I wouldn't complicate it.

Courtesy of S StoicPhantom for the idea, who suggested back when I started. Albeit, I'm getting a little more precise at dash dancing spacing.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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#97
2/21/19

- I'm still ******** and keep landing in Smash attacks (and B-Airs) because I get desperate and land into my opponent, instead of doing the smart thing, trying to avoid it and try to reset to a less favourable position. It gets pretty annoying when your opponent knows he's going to throw the move out and you'll land right into it, like a dumbass.

Giving up a lead for free, a lot of the time.

- Talking about leads, I seem to get pretty stupid even when I have a pretty damn significant lead. I could take a stock off with little as 30-40% and end up in 100+% in a matter of seconds. This isn't Zelda, this is literally just me being stupid. Just have to figure out my own stupidity pattern better.

- yeah that shield tilt upwards > B mash into Up-B OoS got patched at 2.0. Took me a while to realise, and I just thought I was doing something wrong. Looks like I really have to get better at doing it "normally", but I mess up with how fast the jump squat is. Gets really annoying when you keep jump Up-B'ing garanteed punishes.

- Got my first real Phantom trap. Read my first jump into an U-Air kill, and it felt really good. Should really go for these a lot more.

- Really have to refine my airdodge punishes. There's been a lot of times where I could've just Kicked someone for it and keep misspacing it.

- Honestly, I feel a lot more comfterble pressing buttons than not. I feel people do the opposite and think seeming all calm and composed helps, but a lot of time being too passive just has you becoming overwhelmed when they just get a hold of you. I get hit, but at least I make my own hits count. You're going to get hit either way, so you may as well get in the fray.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#98
- I realise that when I'm not "playing good", I'm kind of not good at all. Like, it only takes a player my own skill to get recked if I let my guard. This should absolutely not happen. Consistency makes a good player. What am I, if I'm one day beating some of the best people, but then losing to really bad people another? No more "oh I was just playing bad and getting hit by literally everything". It's the delusional thing I always told myself to excuse playing ****ty.
If you're talking tournament nerves, like you have been, your skills degrade under pressure. Concert musicians also have this problem a lot and don't play near as well, as in practice. It seems to take a major amount of practice, in order to do kind of ok under pressure.

- My U-Airs have been kind of iffy. I mean, I don't expect them to land half the time, but you're also partly using it them to condition your opponent to airdodge or into a worse position in general. I usually U-Air more than I should, and by the time they're close to landing and approaching the floor/platform, that's when I should switch to something like N-Air or U-Tilt.
Practice will help, but I don't think that move was designed to hit very often. I don't hit it that much and the faster the character the harder to hit. I think it's supposed to be the few times you do land it, it will do quite a lot. Kind of like the kicks.

- My Up-Bs OoS still suck. I keep hitting Jump too early, and I can't seem to subconciously do the X > A slide without thinking it (Jump > B, in my case).
Shield stun might be part of your problem. I think it buffers a jump, if you do it during shield stun. I don't know why it would only buffer the jump, but I sometimes have this problem too and can't think of many other reasons why this would happen. Maybe it has to do with it jump canceling first.

- Still dropping a lot of my D-Air > Kicks. It's not even like they're airdodging or DI'ing. The Kicks are usually too close.
I noticed Dair -> D-Tilt -> Kick is seemingly true on most characters at 40 and maybe earlier or later. I haven't actually landed that in an actual match, due to the skills degrading under pressure thing, but training mode has it as true. Maybe play around with that, it might be easier than the finesse you need to have, to land the kick straight out of Dair. Otherwise it might be better to stick to the true combos.

- Lowkey starting to realise I can pretty much just dash dance back at forth waiting at the ledge and react to most options like that. F-Smash or Grab, I wouldn't complicate it.

Courtesy of S StoicPhantom for the idea, who suggested back when I started. Albeit, I'm getting a little more precise at dash dancing spacing.
:secretkpop: You're welcome.

- Talking about leads, I seem to get pretty stupid even when I have a pretty damn significant lead. I could take a stock off with little as 30-40% and end up in 100+% in a matter of seconds. This isn't Zelda, this is literally just me being stupid. Just have to figure out my own stupidity pattern better.
Part of it, might be your opponent playing safer and more careful. I've noticed the hardest part of most matches, is when the opponent is on their last stock. It makes it harder to bait them and they have nothing to lose at that point. Played a Wolf the other day, that would do nothing but hop on the platforms and occasionally use his blaster. It was the most frustrating thing, that match took forever, and it went more even than it should. He finally became more brainless than his character and accidentally killed himself.

- yeah that shield tilt upwards > B mash into Up-B OoS got patched at 2.0. Took me a while to realise, and I just thought I was doing something wrong. Looks like I really have to get better at doing it "normally", but I mess up with how fast the jump squat is. Gets really annoying when you keep jump Up-B'ing garanteed punishes.
I did not know that. I didn't use it, but that explains why it didn't work, when I accidentally did.

- Got my first real Phantom trap. Read my first jump into an U-Air kill, and it felt really good. Should really go for these a lot more.
Indeed. It has a lot of potential, if we can become better at it.


- Honestly, I feel a lot more comfterble pressing buttons than not. I feel people do the opposite and think seeming all calm and composed helps, but a lot of time being too passive just has you becoming overwhelmed when they just get a hold of you. I get hit, but at least I make my own hits count. You're going to get hit either way, so you may as well get in the fray.
I think it depends on the opponent. Some opponents, get overwhelmed by aggressive hitboxs, while others seem to have the patience and reaction time to punish, even quick moves. And some opponents, are overaggressive and are easily baited and punished with patience, while others are patient and have a character good at camping, like the aforementioned Wolf. It's difficult to find a balance between the two.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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#99
3/2/19

Did ****ing ****ty at a tournament. Again. No surprise. I love the irony that I played much, much afterwards. It's almost a cruel a joke, because it's probably the best I've played so far (bar a few parries).

- In these last 2-3 days, I've been a lot more consistent with my Up-Bs OoS. I can almost say I've naturalised it without even thinking.
- Between yesterday and the day before, I've hardly been dropping Stomp > Heel.
- I became a lot more patient at the dash dance approach game. Eventually, my opponent would throw out a move and I would just Dash Attack it. This goes for stuff like Lucina's aerials.
- Yesterday, I was being really consistent at reading DI after D-Throw and even getting things like neutral/up DI > Kick. I would always sourspot this last one. I could even catch a lightweight like Kirby up until 50.
- Dash Attack and soft Dash Attack can kind of lead into itself or at least set up a string at low percents.
- Still working on those Wavelands. There was a day or two I couldn't get them at all, but they're slowly becoming natural. You can use them to extend your D-Throw combos if your opponent chooses to airdodge into platforms. Even if it's just landing faster unto a platform, it's useful for covering more ground and setting up pressure. I managed to use it in a tournament match, so there's that.
 

StoicPhantom

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Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
3/2/19

Did ****ing ****ty at a tournament. Again. No surprise. I love the irony that I played much, much afterwards. It's almost a cruel a joke, because it's probably the best I've played so far (bar a few parries).

- Dash Attack and soft Dash Attack can kind of lead into itself or at least set up a string at low percents.
You might need to work on your mental aspects more. Maybe there's some meditation or concentration exercises you can do, to help keep your focus during tournaments and other high pressure situations. I've been off my game lately as well. I think I'm a little too tired mentally and am going to need to take a break for a day or two. This is pretty mentally taxing.

I find dash attack can punish air-dodges pretty easily. Up-Tilt can juggle really well, so long as you read their DI and they have to air-dodge to escape. Dash attack will catch that air-dodge and send them off stage. You can pretty much shutdown any landing attempts, on most characters.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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Starting to think there's something fundamentally wrong with my neutral (or thereby lack of). My Dash Dance game sucks, and I started realising I'm not really doing anything productive bar running around like a headless chicken. The main idea was simply dash in/out > bait & punish, but apparently that idea went out the window. Since I'm used to running in foxthrot, this leads to just running into attacks.

And talking about foxthrotting, I'm still trying to find the balance between it and "normal" running so I practice stuff like run > Parry while still being able to close in a distance at a reasonable timeframe. Charging Phantom isn't really a thing for me, but everyone else is welcome to do so to force an approach.


- Talking about Phantom, I think I could start using a bit of first phases to block out swords and other disjoints. There was one or two ocassions where I threw it out like that and it blocked out Marcina's Fair entirely for me to punish. Didn't look too much into it, but it's kind of there.
- Using Phantom effectively at the ledge isn't really all that brainless as some people would think. I think most of us could be guilty of using it too early (myself, included), meaning they could just wait it out until their invincibility runs out.
- Have been getting a fair bit of Nayru's 2 Frame > Phantom Slash... it's incredibly fun to pull off, and not to mention really effective. Should be getting this far more consistently, considering how easy it is. Does D-Tilt 2 Frame have anything on it that Nayru's doesn't?
- May or may not be known, but there's a strange interaction when the Phantom Slash hits and you use Nayru's on it. It sends the opponent straight up. I have of around two ocassions on it, so I could upload it later (thinking of doing a full Phantom compilation).
- Really need to read a ledge jump into Kick, like this (Courtesy of DarkStarStorm DarkStarStorm ). My opponent is making a habit of either waiting it out entirely (see: too damn early) or probably just going over it (i.e R.O.B/Kirby???).
- Dash Attack is really good, but like half the people are just shielding it. I went from using it as an actual punish tool to simply a brainless approach. Need to actually start grabbing, and this goes double for learning instant Pivot Grab.
- I feel like I could be even more aggressive with U-Air. I'm starting to realise we can consistently frametrap opponents into stuff like U-Tilt and Dash Attack if they tend to airdodge through it.
- D-Throw > Kick at silly percents is still hard as ****, but I'm pretty sure that it's real and it most definitely kills. Fought an Inceniroar and consistently killed him at 50 at the ledge while camping at the ledge and spamming Pivot Grab. Not even full rage. Killed a Ganondorf and a Ridley at freaking 44-47%.

tl;dr really need to re-evaluate the meaning of neutral and actually start analizing my replays.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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Back. This time, with some Wolf experience (for whatever my friend/training partner's worth...). Like, getting a good grip on how to get around his annoying aerial and being able to punish his moveset is a good start. The rest, up to the player's full skill and how they use said moveset.

- I'm pretty sure we can punish most of his Smash attacks with Kick. F-Smash, you have to be really quick. And it's still safe if he goes max range, apparently.
- Apparently we can Up-B OoS his N-Air. Either that, or my friend's doing something wrong. Did it a couple of times, too, so I doubt it's coincidence. Not to mention, he will usually throw out a move right afterwards (somewhat confirming it's safe).
- Wolf's B-Air is really not that oppressive. It's slow, and most of the time I got hit by the sourspot. Only annoying thing is that it seems to hit pretty low...tried ducking under it with Dash Attack and got hit all those times. And this is coming from someone who uses this to punish Marcina's landings.
- If you're idea of a match is to sit in shield and pray for the best, you're in for a world of pain. I constantly challenge his aerial approaches by mixing Short and Full Hops as to go either above or under them (N-Air or F-Air). I was even working on Pivot Grabing him out of them, but it's something I have to look into.
- I think we're annoying as hell offstage. By the looks of it, there's a huge chance you should get a kill everytime he gets send offstage. Low recovery felt the easiest to cover. Phantom can sometimes force him to a high recovery, which can be worse. Stuff like Phantom, Nayru's and D-Air (even soft D-Air) just really complicate it for him.
- There's a lot of stuff he can't do for free on our shield. For one, I mentioned the Smashes (at least 2 out of 3?), and then there's stuff like full Jab and F-Tilt. I kept Kicking those.
- His U-Tilt is stupid braindead. If he spams it on your shield, chances are you're better off getting away from it or something like Kick/Up/B OoS (assuming you don't mind the possible trade). Grabbing sucks.
- Nayru's just feels godsent in this matchup. I used it a lot to cover my landings against stuff like F-Smash (which I'm super succeptible to), and a lot of his A-spamming in general (well-timed). You can even gimp him with it without even needing Phantom.
- Almost got a sexy-ass 0-to-death string on him, but failed the very last combo. It was something like max rage D-Air at 0 > U-Tiltx2 (2nd in reverse) > U-Air > 2nd U-Air attempt > airdodge read D-Tilt > failed Kick. Did about 55-60%, but it was defitely killing.
- I use N-Air a ton, but there's something about it in this matchup that I can't put my hand on. I just personally rather get hits since, since you're getting hit either way I don't mind as long as you make them count.
- Getting a far better hold of juggling these last days. It's not hard to chase people with U-Air and frametrap them into stuff like U-Tilts and finishing off with Dash Attack. There was a point I could've gotten like 40% off of a juggle, but ended up dropping it because I was a frame too slow.
- Our F-Tilt is actually kind of really good. There were a handful of situations it reached stuff that other moves (like F-Smash didn't), as well as the extra speed and less commitment than Dash Attack. A pretty solid poking tool at max range, walls out a lot of stuff, crazy 15% and even somewhat kills (sometimes caught people off-guard at 100ish) at the ledge. I think this is the answer to a lot of aerial approach characters that we can't be out with just U-Tilt, like Pichu, Wolf, Kirby, etc.
- Nayru's 2 Frame > Phantom Slash will never stop being satisfying.


Reference, I GUESS:

 
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StoicPhantom

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Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
Starting to think there's something fundamentally wrong with my neutral (or thereby lack of). My Dash Dance game sucks, and I started realising I'm not really doing anything productive bar running around like a headless chicken. The main idea was simply dash in/out > bait & punish, but apparently that idea went out the window. Since I'm used to running in foxthrot, this leads to just running into attacks.
I think there are two major things that stand out to me about your neutral.

1. You impose your will on your opponent a little too strong. At the risk of sounding like a cheesy kung fu movie, rather than ebb and flow with the water, you just kind of crash into it. Being too aggressive all the time, leads you to sometimes overshoot and put yourself in a worse position. I think you need to grasp the flow of the match a little better and know when to push and when to pull. Being oppressive can be effective on people weak to pressure, but I'm guessing you've noticed people that aren't are more difficult for you to fight. That doesn't mean you have to camp all the time, but if your opponent is charging and being aggressive, then there isn't really any need to waste a lot of effort and you can just let him come to you.

And I don't mean as a general match strategy, I mean adapt to the constant micro changes. If your opponent is charging, be ready to shield, dodge, or intercept with a disjoint. If he overshoots and tries to shield or otherwise switch to defense, then go on the offensive. Push and pull if you will. Basically, if you are having difficulty improving, go back to the basics. They are the foundation to any skill after all, so when in doubt return to them. Despite being associated with beginners, the basics are actually incredibly deep and things you never really stop learning. Learn to take turns and know when to press the advantage and when to back off, understand the spacing of your attacks and all aspects of your movement and mobility, from dashing to fast falling. And your opponent's as well. Which brings me to point number two.

2. I think more in-depth MU knowledge would be helpful. Go back through any replays of problem MUs or replays in general and look specifically at moves you had trouble countering. Lots of moves, especially those from top tiers, shift their character's hurtbox dramatically. Zelda's very precision oriented, so micro spacing is especially important. Knowing individual moves and how they affect a characters hurtbox, will go a long way in that micro spacing. I noticed you have difficulty with small characters(I do too) and that's because their hurtbox is small. Short hop Fair will sail over most of them, so as tempting as it might be, we need to not try to do it OoS as a punish. Instead, we need to figure out a better OoS option or resign ourselves to the fact we might need to just roll away.

Having plans for specific moves, should help a lot as would understanding when it is most optimal for your opponent to use them. You should take some time to do some in-depth study on these things, especially top tier characters, given they have the most hurtbox shifting(even tall ones like Snake).

And talking about foxthrotting, I'm still trying to find the balance between it and "normal" running so I practice stuff like run > Parry while still being able to close in a distance at a reasonable timeframe. Charging Phantom isn't really a thing for me, but everyone else is welcome to do so to force an approach.
I tend to do it if I need to get somewhere quickly, but I just normal dash if I'm close to my opponent while dash dancing on occasion, so I don't get punished as much.

My control sticks finally definitively broke, so I'm being forced to use the Joycons now. I don't know if the Joycons are better with inputs or if my pro controller sticks were just that bad, but my movement has improved dramatically. I've noticed now, that Zelda's dash is a little on the short side and a single dash can function somewhat similar to what a perfect pivot would have accomplished in 4. It might be worthwhile to experiment with single or double dashes on an approaching opponent.

- Talking about Phantom, I think I could start using a bit of first phases to block out swords and other disjoints. There was one or two ocassions where I threw it out like that and it blocked out Marcina's Fair entirely for me to punish. Didn't look too much into it, but it's kind of there.
You should definitely look into it. It can't really replace an actual sword, but it is pretty good for specific spacing situations. Not just swords either, any situation where your opponent is content to spam aerials in place.

Does D-Tilt 2 Frame have anything on it that Nayru's doesn't?
Not really. There maybe some scenario where it will kill a little earlier, given it will put the opponent closer to the ceiling, but I think for all intents and purposes, they're identical. Use it if you don't have time to run off and Nayru or don't want to commit that hard(like if you are going up against a character good at edgeguarding/offstage).

- May or may not be known, but there's a strange interaction when the Phantom Slash hits and you use Nayru's on it. It sends the opponent straight up. I have of around two ocassions on it, so I could upload it later (thinking of doing a full Phantom compilation).
I'm not sure I've seen that. I doubt it would lead to anything useful, but it would be interesting to see. I'm also planning on doing some compilations, given I need to delete some of these replays before the next patch. If you're doing a Phantom one, I might see if I have enough material for a Nayru edgeguard one, so I don't look like I'm trying to compete lol. I think there is a lot of potential as an edgeguard tool, given all of its weird hitboxs and spikes. I have a lot to sift through though and my lazy tendencies might make this have an ETA of next year lol.

- My opponent is making a habit of either waiting it out entirely (see: too damn early) or probably just going over it (i.e R.O.B/Kirby???).
Unfortunately, some characters have attributes that allow them to skip the getup phase completely. Those with high and fast jumps or specific tools, won't be successfully trapped.

- D-Throw > Kick at silly percents is still hard as ****, but I'm pretty sure that it's real and it most definitely kills. Fought an Inceniroar and consistently killed him at 50 at the ledge while camping at the ledge and spamming Pivot Grab. Not even full rage. Killed a Ganondorf and a Ridley at freaking 44-47%.
I've been doing this a lot as well. It is really difficult to do, but it also tends to catch our opponents by surprise, so even if we whiff they might not be able to react to it. And yeah, I've even killed Snake at like 80 before.
 

SoniCraft

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For Naryu's vs dtilt with 2-framing, dtilt is much safer. Missing Naryu's puts you in a bad spot if you miss, but it covers recoveries that dtilt might not because it has invincibility. Dtilt can also combo into Fair sometimes at the ledge, which kills mad early. Overall, I would say Dtilt's usually the preferred option, but it's character MU specific.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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I think there are two major things that stand out to me about your neutral.

1. You impose your will on your opponent a little too strong. At the risk of sounding like a cheesy kung fu movie, rather than ebb and flow with the water, you just kind of crash into it. Being too aggressive all the time, leads you to sometimes overshoot and put yourself in a worse position. I think you need to grasp the flow of the match a little better and know when to push and when to pull. Being oppressive can be effective on people weak to pressure, but I'm guessing you've noticed people that aren't are more difficult for you to fight. That doesn't mean you have to camp all the time, but if your opponent is charging and being aggressive, then there isn't really any need to waste a lot of effort and you can just let him come to you.

And I don't mean as a general match strategy, I mean adapt to the constant micro changes. If your opponent is charging, be ready to shield, dodge, or intercept with a disjoint. If he overshoots and tries to shield or otherwise switch to defense, then go on the offensive. Push and pull if you will. Basically, if you are having difficulty improving, go back to the basics. They are the foundation to any skill after all, so when in doubt return to them. Despite being associated with beginners, the basics are actually incredibly deep and things you never really stop learning. Learn to take turns and know when to press the advantage and when to back off, understand the spacing of your attacks and all aspects of your movement and mobility, from dashing to fast falling. And your opponent's as well.
I don't have much of a sense of a neutral, I realise. You're right, I do force things. I try to force a lot of openings into certain combos, and I don't really know what's the proper alternative to it. I do a lot of crashing into things, but I also think it's part of simply not executing what I want properly. Most of the time I just want to whiff punish off of dash dancing, but the endlag on some moves (like Falco, Ness & Kirby's F-Air) confuses me and I end up getting punished. And I don't think it's always as simple as run in and shield, like it was in the previous games.

I don't like playing passive from a preference standpoint, but also because I not only think it's unnecessary, but sometimes even not optimal. Whether it's sitting in shield or charging Phantom in neutral, I don't think that's as a proper alternative as people think it is.

Right now, I think the solution could be as simple as changing the way I create openings in the safest way possible. That's probably (basically) everything wrong in my game, considering I start auto-piloting by then. Everything else should flow more naturally:

- Safer alternative for landing D-Tilt? I think I've managed to low profile against a few falling aerials. That's about all I can think of, unless maybe the usual shield pokes I go for (but never just randomly throwing it out there, or at least not making a habit out of it).
- Same for D-Air? D-Air OoS always sounded like a good suggestion. Stuff like punishing a getup or jump attack from the ledge. I use this move a lot as an approach mixup, but also have a tendency of getting punished because I land with it too much.
- Not sure what to say about grabs.

One of my other main approach tools is N-Air. I use it a lot, but it's not a bad idea using it to contest other aerials at a certain angle. I still use it a little too much, and sometimes even jumping when there's no chance it'll hit.
 

StoicPhantom

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Messages
408
I apologize for this long ass post, I needed to go in depth, so don't die from old age before you finish reading it.

I don't have much of a sense of a neutral, I realise. You're right, I do force things. I try to force a lot of openings into certain combos, and I don't really know what's the proper alternative to it. I do a lot of crashing into things, but I also think it's part of simply not executing what I want properly. Most of the time I just want to whiff punish off of dash dancing, but the endlag on some moves (like Falco, Ness & Kirby's F-Air) confuses me and I end up getting punished. And I don't think it's always as simple as run in and shield, like it was in the previous game
I definitely get what you are saying here, it's just that Ultimate nerfed that play style rather hard. It worked in 4, because jump squats were laggier, aerials had a bit more endlag to them, and shields were strong and could be used to shutdown aerial spam. The big issue I think with doing this in Ultimate, is aggressive options like punishing usually have a bit of movement at the start(dash, jump, DI, etc). That means there will always be a bit of a delay before your attack can come out, given you need to traverse the small bit of space between you and your opponent. This might have been easier in 4, given aerials had more lag, but quicker jump squats and lagless aerials, means a smaller window of punish, which means that small delay in traversing that space, could be significant in whether you can make the punish or not.

Your opponent can buffer a frame 3 jump as soon as they land and be in the air again, by the time you make it there. In other words, your cutting things incredibly close and any slight delay, could mean an extra frame or two that will allow your opponent back in the air. I just don't think it's feasible to play like this anymore, especially now that shields are useless to the point that even Smash attacks can be safe on them. Parries will help, but are high risk and some moves are safe even on parry.

In theory, this should have made things less campy, but in practice, everything being so safe means everyone being afraid to commit, which means it's more optimal to just camp and spam aerials until your opponent commits. Basically, it came full circle and even though there is a lot of movement, there is little actual action. There is little incentive to commit and you don't really risk much simply camping and waiting for your opponent to commit. There is also an incredibly high reward off of those safe spammy attacks, like Yoshi's eggs or Pichu's Thunderbolt(?), which can get them 50%+ and possibly a stock. It really is Smash 4, just offensive camping instead of defensive camping, if that makes sense. And unlike Smash 4, the rewards are higher, the risks are lower, and it is much safer to fish for a kill than before.

That might sound contradictory, but what I'm saying is, aggressive attacks and commits like punishing or rushing are risky, passive attacks like projectiles or aerial spam are not. There is literally no reason to ever want to commit. You can't really time your opponent out, with the rules usually being around 6-8 minutes, it's way too easy for an opponent to chip away at you for that to really be a thing. Lots of KO moves are fairly safe, so even trying to punish those is difficult.

So I think what you really need, is a fundamental change in your strategy. Rather than trying to bait whiffs, you need to instead force approaches. Not by baiting, but by limiting space and backing your opponent against the ledge. I think spacing and stage control is incredibly important now, possibly more than any other Smash game. The only real way you are going to get an opponent to commit, is if they have their back against the wall(ledge), and need to take back some space. Trying to attack them directly, what with attacks being so safe, mobility being so high, air-dodges having no endlag if you do it into the ground, jumps being so quick, is next to impossible to do safely and without taking a lot of damage yourself.

And this is where Phantom can help quite a bit. I think you might have been soured on Phantom from watching bad Zelda players. It's not really a camp and pray it will hit tool. It's quite literally something that fights alongside Zelda and is an extension of her will. Use it to cover approaches and force your opponent back against the ledge. There isn't, and I'll say it again for emphasis, there isn't any safe options the vast majority of the cast, and I mean outside of like a few characters, has to counter Phantom. Reflectors can be baited with it, counters that travel the stage can be shielded, and projectiles can be avoided with an aerial charge or learning the Phantom displacement tech. Nearly every option your opponent can possibly take, will hurt them in some way.

Sword characters and a lot of top tier characters are dominant, not just because they can aerial spam large disjointed hitboxs and wall their opponents out, but also because they can use those wide sweeping hitboxs to cover lots of options and space at the same time. In other words, they can combat the problems with Ultimate's mechanics in ways a lot of other characters can't, by having moves or mobility that covers lots of area at once, general purpose moves that do lots of different tasks and can be spammed safely and easily(Ike's Nair, Wolf's laser, Lucina's everything).

Zelda in contrast, doesn't really have any general purpose moves like that. All of her moves have specific purposes, for specific situations. In other words, her hitboxs are too small and precise to cover lots of area or options. You mentioned using Nair as an approach tool and while that is good, you probably noticed it's not very effective against aerials that out range it, like Ness's Fair. You could time and micro space it at very specific angles to avoid that, but that is a lot to ask of the player and isn't something the player is going to be able to keep up and do all the time. You might also try and do it off of reads, but that's a lot of options to cover and sheer probability is going to get you eventually.

Phantom is that general purpose tool. It covers so much space, sometimes over half the stage and is incredibly intimidating, even to skilled opponents. The partial charges are situational and have endlag to them, but the full charge is always useful in every context. The thing that a lot of Zelda players miss, is that Zelda herself needs to be used in tandem. You don't just stand there and wait for it to hit, you position yourself for a follow up, while avoiding any preemptive attacks from your opponent. Anytime your opponent is camping, jumping, retreating, or otherwise giving you time, is when you can fully charge it. There is no reason not to and it severely limits your opponent's options. You are far safer with it at your back, than if you would approach normally. You can do exactly what you always do when you approach, just your opponent will now be distracted by two attacks.

If you're still skeptical, try applying what happens when you use it to ledge trap, to neutral. Your opponent only has a few options and if you get the read, you can punish big time. If your opponent jumps or air-dodges, you can Nair, LK, or Up-air. If your opponent rolls you can dash attack/grab, LK or Up-B out of a run. If they shield, you can grab or do a shield break combo/pressure shield. If they try to preemptively attack, you can shield or do some other counter and open up the chance to combo into or from Phantom. If they back off and retreat, move up and repeat the process until they can no longer retreat. And if they parry or use some very specific anti Phantom tool(really high jumps + high mobility(Greninja), a very monstrous level of an attribute(Yoshi's aerial game)) at least you won't lose much, if anything.

I know it seems difficult and intimidating to learn how to use Phantom in neutral, but I think the payoff will be immensely worth it. It's not as difficult as it looks and once you understand the spacing, it is fairly easy to use and get impromptu combos. From now on, just try fully charging it anytime your opponent backs off and gives you enough space to do so. After fully charging it, just do what you normally do and while noting how your opponent reacts. After enough times of doing this, you'll get used to the patterns of opponent reactions and can then experiment with different responses. Phantom isn't a camping tool, it is an aggressive attack, so you're not camping with it, you are pressing the attack.

I really think exploring all options available, will be beneficial to you. From what I've seen and heard of your advantage and disadvantage state, they are pretty amazing and have clearly carried you to high placing at your local, despite your poor neutral. I think you have the potential to become a really good player if you fix your neutral, so I would encourage you to explore new things, even if they don't seem immediately beneficial or appealing to you.


- Safer alternative for landing D-Tilt? I think I've managed to low profile against a few falling aerials. That's about all I can think of, unless maybe the usual shield pokes I go for (but never just randomly throwing it out there, or at least not making a habit out of it).
- Same for D-Air? D-Air OoS always sounded like a good suggestion. Stuff like punishing a getup or jump attack from the ledge. I use this move a lot as an approach mixup, but also have a tendency of getting punished because I land with it too much.
- Not sure what to say about grabs.
Other than the Phantom I just spent nearly the entire post plugging, that would really depend on the situation.

D-Tilt feels more like a move you use to catch your opponent sleeping or in shield and isn't easy to land in neutral, given how short it is. It might be best to use it more as a punish than an approach, although to be honest nearly every situation I can think of, can just as easily be done with Fair/Up-B. Maybe use it against short characters like Pichu. I personally don't use it enough to really have any satisfying answers.

Dair can be used OoS on smaller characters that LK would pass over, but won't hit really small hurtboxs shifts, like Kirby D-Tilt. You likely won't be hitting the sweet-spot, but it is ok for escaping things like Pichu F-Tilt pressure. It can also be used to punish reflectors baited from Phantom, if you're not confident they won't shield an Up-B. Can also be used after hopping a charge when you're trapped at the ledge, if you aren't confident you can land a fast fall LK.

Pivot grab is good and can catch landings after avoiding the landing aerial, but otherwise just grab when they shield.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
I apologize for this long *** post, I needed to go in depth, so don't die from old age before you finish reading it.
No, if anything, thank you for taking your time on this (as always). I'm surprised at the amount of knowledge you have, and I don't mean just trivial stuff like some frame data. You bring on details I wouldn't really pick up on.

As to everything you just said, I'm not really sure I have an excuse not to. Using Phantom alot more- and as an actual staple to neutral, doesn't really take a whole lot from my game, does it? I'd have to see how that looks.

Now you got me curious.

Dair can be used OoS on smaller characters that LK would pass over, but won't hit really small hurtboxs shifts, like Kirby D-Tilt. You likely won't be hitting the sweet-spot, but it is ok for escaping things like Pichu F-Tilt pressure. It can also be used to punish reflectors baited from Phantom, if you're not confident they won't shield an Up-B. Can also be used after hopping a charge when you're trapped at the ledge, if you aren't confident you can land a fast fall LK.
I either use it as an approach mixup as it is, or that part you mentioned in jumping over certain moves and situations. In fact, I probabaly do it in some of my videos. I don't remember it having trouble hitting really low, unless you mean straight out of a short hop.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
No, if anything, thank you for taking your time on this (as always). I'm surprised at the amount of knowledge you have, and I don't mean just trivial stuff like some frame data. You bring on details I wouldn't really pick up on.
Thanks for that. I always try to keep my posts as concise as possible, so that people don't tl;dr, but that doesn't always pan out, so it's nice to know that they are informative enough to take the time to read.

As to everything you just said, I'm not really sure I have an excuse not to. Using Phantom alot more- and as an actual staple to neutral, doesn't really take a whole lot from my game, does it? I'd have to see how that looks.
It shouldn't, no. It might take some time to figure out when and where to charge it, so that it doesn't interrupt the flow and give control to your opponent, but the payoff should be worth it. I'm still learning the most optimal way to use it, but I would say as a general principle do it whenever your opponent is camping or in the air out of reach. Ideally you would do it in a way that would gain or let you remain in control of center stage, while still spacing it so that you can react to any sudden aerial rushes during charge.

Partial charges will have some endlag, so those will generally be used for quick get off me type stuff or reacting to options your opponent may take out of your reach or edgeguarding. They will take some time to figure when to use them, but the full charge is fairly simple and will only slow you down momentarily(and give you a bit of time to plan). You can then play a more reactive/whiff punish style like you want, given it will usually force an option from your opponent, you need only guess/react to it. That should hopefully be better than trying to haphazardly hit them in neutral, while having to sift through a billion options they could take.

It's not completely perfect though, characters with a sheer amount of aerial and jump speed/height will usually avoid it fairly easily in most cases(:ultlucina::ultgreninja::ultfalcon:etc), but for the most part it will be pretty useful. It can be especially useful on characters that are slow to land or fall, just setting it up can have it cover the ground while you can cover air-dodge or DI.

It'll take lots of experimentation in many different MUs and I think there is some room in preferences of how much or little it is used in anyone MU or play style.

I don't remember it having trouble hitting really low, unless you mean straight out of a short hop.
I was thinking of it being used OoS when I said that, you usually only have time for a short hop there. If a character is pressuring your shield with D-Tilt or an equivalent, Dair is usually the optimal punish, as LK often goes over it and Up-B can be too slow or won't ladder at certain percents(you can still do it in place though). However, some massive hurtbox shifts like Kirby's D-Tilt, can duck under it and leave you open for a punish. Snake's might do it too(don't quote me) and some landing Fairs like Lucina's or Peach's might as well(you might still be able to hit them with certain types of spacing, not really sure).
 
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Deleted member 189823

Guest
6/20/19

I have a tournament tomorrow and I see little reason as to why I can't win. Just a couple of things to address beforehand (it might depend on this):

- I realise I don't react well to certain pressure. Not because I panic and get read on my defensive options, but mostly because they tend to be aggressive in nature.
I'm starting to realise that I react this way when people are pressuring my shield. They would poke with a certain aerial, back off and shield. To this, I tend to either respond with a Dash Attack or SH Dair. A lot of people just shield and use their imagination afterwards. Others? Simply get out the way and Smash attack.

- Similiarly, it seems I don't always respond well to high profiling aerials (i.e Pikachu/Pichu's Fair). I'd react the same way, with an aggresive option, and they simply wait and use some OoS. This is especially relevant when they have certain poking moves that they can also cover multiple defensive options with (i.e again Pikachu can D-Tilt to safely on shield and catch jumps with Fair).

- Talking about OoS and simply shielding; I'm simply not doing this enough. I keep forgetting Zelda isn't super adequate to the game's popular formula (pressuring shields safely), so I tend to forget we can't always punish OoS or get away by shield dropping. I realise I might not be Nairing as much as I should (sometimes simply your best option). I might not even be Up-B'ing enough. There's numerous times they'd be too close for a Kick.

Remember guys, we have a ridiculously strong Frame 6 OoS. Your opponent is not always going to have a sword, and they're not always going to be perfect. Again, it's Frame 6.

- All in all, tl;dr, a lot of my matches against better players simply comes down to these basic interactions. They're really simple in nature, and I'm realising this by watching my matches and realising they're basically doing this to me and that I'm not using it myself.

- oh yeah I should very likely just grab more.
 

daddypeach

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Messages
36
I think your observations are so true. These characters that place high in majors like peach and Pichu have some very good options to pressure, space, and be non-committal in some very critical situations. I think we really need to start looking at matchups much more closely on the Zelda boards, especially the higher tiers so that we know where the character specific weaknesses are. For example, peach has a weak shield grab and amazing bair (but slow fair)... You would probably be safer pressuring the front of her shield rather than the back. Otherwise, I know I need to be better at avoiding the situations where I am not going to option select out of guessing games.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
- I realise I don't react well to certain pressure. Not because I panic and get read on my defensive options, but mostly because they tend to be aggressive in nature.
I'm starting to realise that I react this way when people are pressuring my shield. They would poke with a certain aerial, back off and shield. To this, I tend to either respond with a Dash Attack or SH Dair. A lot of people just shield and use their imagination afterwards. Others? Simply get out the way and Smash attack.
It depends on the aerial type and what follow up options they have. I tend to group them in categories and pick my options, depending on how quick I am to react. It would go something like this: single hit aerial -> parry, multi-hit aerial -> space disjoints, multi-hit disjoint -> move just outside the effective range and startup my punish before they land.

Some attacks are safe on parry with proper spacing, but the frame advantage you get, often lets you move up safely. They can't keep doing retreating aerials forever, and eventually they're going to need to be more aggressive, lest you trap them at the ledge. Other attacks are safe on shield, but not on parry, so make sure you understand when and what you can punish.

There are too many aerials for me to get into specifically, but I'll give my take on swords, since those can be difficult to deal with.

For Marcina types, you can often use Phantom to outrange them, if they start getting too happy with the retreating short hop aerials. If you time it as they are landing, you should be able to avoid them punishing the Phantom's endlag. Ultimately, want you to do, is let them know you can win in a spacing game, and try to make them impatient and be overaggressive. There aerials aren't safe on parry improperly spaced, so if you can force them to approach, single hit aerials are easy to time. Even then, you should still be able to punish improperly spaced aerials on shield OoS. Once get in on their range, your options should be faster than theirs and they have poor disadvantage.

For Ike/Shulk types, their startup is ridiculously long, and single hit aerials are susceptible to parries. They'll try to outrange you, but their aerials are very telegraghed. You can parry or sometimes run under them and shield, then you can punish their landing. Because their startup is so long, once you get in, they have a hard time escaping, so don't letup. They generally don't have good shield punishes, so you can afford to play patient.

For Chroy types, I already did an extensive write up in the MU thread, but basically it's difficult for them to consistently space, so you can wait till they overextend and keep them in disadvantage.

Short swords can often be outranged by Zelda's disjoints. Don't forget F-Tilt is intangible and can beat out swords. Just make sure you space around them.

You can kind of use these principles and apply them to non sword aerials. You just have to make sure you adjust and adapt to different types and styles. Keeping a close eye on their spacing and DI is very important, as it will tell you what you can punish and what you can't. Don't try to instantly react to every shield hit, or you might miss out on those subtleties. If you can punish it, you'll usually have time to process what you're seeing. And most of all, you'll need to accept that you won't be able to punish everything. Sometimes, you just need to take the little stage control they gave up and bide your time for a better opportunity.

- Similiarly, it seems I don't always respond well to high profiling aerials (i.e Pikachu/Pichu's Fair). I'd react the same way, with an aggresive option, and they simply wait and use some OoS. This is especially relevant when they have certain poking moves that they can also cover multiple defensive options with (i.e again Pikachu can D-Tilt to safely on shield and catch jumps with Fair).
For these types, try to beat them with movement. Dash back as they're are doing it, and try to stand just a little outside that range. You'll need to know the maximum distance they can travel from their current position, but if you time this right, you should be able to punish even safe options, like the Chu's Fair.

You'll also need to keep in mind, where they're doing these. How you move will depend on how much they have to work with. If Pichu is approaching with Fair from a full hop, he'll often be too busy trying to DI into you, to properly fast fall. You can then dash back just outside, and I mean just outside his range, then punish with a pivot grab or Fair, dash attack, Jab, D-Tilt, Fsmash, etc, depending on what option he likes to use after landing(shield, aerial, roll, etc).

If he short hops it from the ground however, that won't really be that feasible. The thing about multi-hits, is that while they're difficult to parry, they also last a long time. If he full hops, he can land as the last few hits are coming out and be fairly safe, but if he short hops, he'll often have to do the full move on shield. IIRC, they're not safe on shield at this point, so I think you should be able to do something like Up-B OoS.

As for getting caught by them in shield, there isn't really much you can do offensively. You'll need to try to get space between, by rolling back or behind them. If they're pressuring your shield like that, they're not grabbing you. You can bide your time until they transition to an aerial, then use the delay to quickly roll away. Just watch for any possible rhythm breaks, that might signify they're going for a grab. You can also use the rhythm to help time parries, if they're spamming a single attack to much.

- Talking about OoS and simply shielding; I'm simply not doing this enough. I keep forgetting Zelda isn't super adequate to the game's popular formula (pressuring shields safely), so I tend to forget we can't always punish OoS or get away by shield dropping. I realise I might not be Nairing as much as I should (sometimes simply your best option). I might not even be Up-B'ing enough. There's numerous times they'd be too close for a Kick.
You're going have to adjust your style, depending on the opponent's character and style. Like with the aforementioned Pi(ka)chu, it's better to maintain space between you and try to outrange him, shielding only as a last resort. For more spacing oriented characters, you can shield more, because even if you can't punish, you won't be grabbed easily. I feel the the most optimal way to play Zelda, is to adapt to your opponent's playstyle, instead of trying to force them to adapt to yours.

If they insist on being overly aggressive, keep a step away from them, and try to punish their over extension. Be fluid and dance around to try to bait an attack. If they insist on being defensive, be aggressive with Phantom and slowly push them back until they have to fight. As long as you have Phantom covering your approaches, you should be able to fight them on equal terms.

I think what you would really benefit right now, is experimenting with how little movement you can use to avoid an attack. Sometimes a quick dash back can completely avoid a move, and you are free from endlag to punish the landing. If moves are too safe to punish, then it might be better to figure out how you can punish them during their move, instead of at the end. Or starting up your move as they are finishing, so you can hit them before they can avoid it.
 
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