Oz's Case Study of Self-Improvement

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Deleted member 189823

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#1
I would like to use this space to write down my notes of my play. Back when I started maining Corrin in Smash 4, I used to write notes after weeklies. It definitely allowed me to "Up" my game, and I've improved considerably within the first few months. It's a small habit that might be able to go a long way, and I welcome others to post their own version to find a workaround for each other.

This is what I've noticed from my first time playing Ultimate:

- I might've gotten a hang of Extended Dash-Dancing, but I still feel like I'm committing too early. A lot of the time I find committing to one of SH N-air or U-Tilt for "approaches". I try to cover it up by throwing Nayru's, but it's pretty punishable if you're just throwing it out like I do.
- My follow-up game was incredibly lacking. Best I could do is U-Tiltx2 > N-air at lower percents. Otherwise, I don't really find myself getting any other follow-ups off of D-Throw. Never once connected D-Throw to U-air or F-air/B-air.
- Looks like I'm terrible at following aerial momentum, in spite of always reading jumps. I don't I caught a single U-air.
- My whole approach game just seems shaky. I find myself approaching with N-air a lot, and don't really get that many combos off of it, even if I managed to land it. Grab is probably Zelda's best approach option.
- I might be allergic to shielding. I never shield. I've heard that Shield Drop got nerfed pretty significantly, so it's not something I feel I could rely on. Highly appreciate input on this.
- I never found myself doing Up-B OoS. Jumps come out around Frame 5-6, right? If that is so, isn't JC (Jump-Cancelled) Up-B insanely good?
- I keep forgetting our new Down-B is a thing.


The point of this thread is too see if we can give each other advice on specific pointers. I don't really have a video at the moment, so this will have to do...
 
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StoicPhantom

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#2
- I might've gotten a hang of Extended Dash-Dancing, but I still feel like I'm committing too early. A lot of the time I find committing to one of SH N-air or U-Tilt for "approaches". I try to cover it up by throwing Nayru's, but it's pretty punishable if you're just throwing it out like I do.
Practice and get a feel for the Phantom and its range and speed at all charge levels. Zelda's moves aren't
really conducive to approaching but the new Phantom is a solution to that. I explained it in a little more
depth in the social thread but I feel Zelda needs to play aggressive with the Phantom to put pressure
and cover her approach. Use her other attacks for defense and punishes instead. Nayru's Love might
be the best defense tool I've seen so far. Use it to stop charges, reflect projectiles, and as a
cover for when your enemy drops shield.If you time it at the point of contact it will beat nearly
every attack even super armor.
- My follow-up game was incredibly lacking. Best I could do is U-Tiltx2 > N-air at lower percents. Otherwise, I don't really find myself getting any other follow-ups off of D-Throw. Never once connected D-Throw to U-air or F-air/B-air.
U-throw is a better throw to combo off at mid percents. D-throw only seems to work at low percents.
Most of Zelda's combos seem situational currently so I wouldn't worry to much about not pulling
them off. Her damage more than makes up for that.
- Looks like I'm terrible at following aerial momentum, in spite of always reading jumps. I don't I caught a single U-air.
Don't worry you're not alone. U-air is better as a juggle tool rather than trying to chase with. You seem to need
to be directly under your opponent to consistently work. Zelda's hitboxs feel a little wonky in general.
- My whole approach game just seems shaky. I find myself approaching with N-air a lot, and don't really get that many combos off of it, even if I managed to land it. Grab is probably Zelda's best approach option.
N-air works better as a defensive tool I feel. Use it out of shield and to stuff aerial approaches.
I'm not so sure about grab being a good approach tool. I find grabbing difficult.
- I might be allergic to shielding. I never shield. I've heard that Shield Drop got nerfed pretty significantly, so it's not something I feel I could rely on. Highly appreciate input on this.
You have the right idea. Shields got nerfed pretty heavily and are kind of a last resort. I think you are
intended to parry not shield this time around.
- I never found myself doing Up-B OoS. Jumps come out around Frame 5-6, right? If that is so, isn't JC (Jump-Cancelled) Up-B insanely good?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think jumps are frame 4. Possibly I've been too scared to Up-B to test.
- I keep forgetting our new Down-B is a thing.
Definitely remember it in the future. You'll want to use Phantom to force your opponent to move
and then attack you. Then you can play defense and stuff your opponents attempts. Once you build
enough damage knockback will increase and knock them off stage. Then use Din's Fire in
combination with Phantom to edgeguard, occasionally going off stage to spike low
recoveries when the situation calls for it. Think Chess. Each time you force your opponent
in the air, use that hang time to charge another Phantom and prepare another strategy.
Eventually your opponent will realize whats going on and try to blitz you. Switch to
defense and wall them out.
 
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D

Deleted member 189823

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#3
Thank you for taking your time for such a topic.

Practice and get a feel for the Phantom and its range and speed at all charge levels. Zelda's moves aren't
really conducive to approaching but the new Phantom is a solution to that. I explained it in a little more
depth in the social thread but I feel Zelda needs to play aggressive with the Phantom to put pressure
and cover her approach. Use her other attacks for defense and punishes instead.
How do you use it offensively? The most easy to remember (and probably best) applications so far is using it to edgeguard so you kind of always force a low recovery. The other one is to simply apply pressure, while you're on the opposite side and maybe get a follow-up out of it.

Since this was only my first time playing, I didn't give it much use. I don't know how the phases of the charge work. It sems like it would take too long to fully charge, but maybe that's just me. What are the applications for the lower charges for, even?

Nayru's Love might
be the best defense tool I've seen so far. Use it to stop charges, reflect projectiles, and as a
cover for when your enemy drops shield.If you time it at the point of contact it will beat nearly
every attack even super armor.
It definitely saved me from a few sticky situations. It has some form of disjoint and/or priority that seemed to beat a lot things...I just found myself using it premptively, as if to cover when I whiff moves in neutral.

Don't worry you're not alone. U-air is better as a juggle tool rather than trying to chase wit
How is the move staling in this game? I'm worried it might not kill if I stale it too much. But on the other hand, it's a lot better than letting me opponent land for free.

How do I cover landings better?


I'm not so sure about grab being a good approach tool. I find grabbing difficult.
Do you mean because it's around Frame 10? I just see you get the most out of it, and it's not like there are a whole lot better approach options. I tried D-Tilt, but it's just too short and doesn't seem to combo into too many things.

You have the right idea. Shields got nerfed pretty heavily and are kind of a last resort. I think you are
intended to parry not shield this time around.
I mean I pretty much hardly ever shielded. Like, ever. Even my friend tend to shield a decent bit, and he still seemed to have gotten stuff like shield grabs and normal punishes by just dropping shield. Maybe we're a bit too vanilla.

I might have exaggerated on it...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think jumps are frame 4. Possibly I've been too scared to Up-B to test.
I've used a fair bit of Up-B, but a lot of the times I used it to get away rather than getting the kill confirm. I'd be highly willing to try a few things out before the tournament, tomorrow.

I don't have the game, yet. So I go online and try to watch videos and see what I can learn. I don't expect to learn everything I see, so I try to keep things simple for me to apply in the game.
 

MultipLe

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#4
Down throw into bair works at most points up until very high percents. Works true at almost all those percents too.

For chasing people above you, you should babysit where they fall and abuse the fact you can choose when you meet them while they can't. Zelda is a lot like melee peach in the sense that she has an amazing dash attack, nair/fair/bair, jab, and down b/neutral b to cover most neutral situations where you're having them land in range.

Good approach mixup when they have a habit or two that you've read are: wizzy waveland into them to dodge through a tilt or projectile, and empty hop forward into grab/jab/dash attack/etc
 
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Deleted member 189823

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#5
Down throw into bair works at most points up until very high percents. Works true at almost all those percents too.

For chasing people above you, you should babysit where they fall and abuse the fact you can choose when you meet them while they can't. Zelda is a lot like melee peach in the sense that she has an amazing dash attack, nair/fair/bair, jab, and down b/neutral b to cover most neutral situations where you're having them land in range.

Good approach mixup when they have a habit or two that you've read are: wizzy waveland into them to dodge through a tilt or projectile, and empty hop forward into grab/jab/dash attack/etc
I'm not into the last bit of "tricksies", but the rest is very solid advice for me. I have a bad habit of chasing my opponent into the air a bit too early, where they would tend to get away faster and into the ground, faster. I assume that your idea of chasing with N-air is to catch hitboxes in-between. Otherwise, it doesn't seem to have that good of a vertical reach.
 

Jimster

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#6
Approach with fast falling lightning kick is much, much better, if you land the hit you do good damage and possibly kill, if you don't you're much safer compared to if you used nair due to the shield stun. Make sure you space it correctly though.

Jump squat is gobally 3 frames, it's significantly better than smash 4 and that's what allows Zelda to do her lightning kick follow ups out of nair, dtilt, dthrow etc. It is also an amazing tool out of shield, 3+6 makes it a 9 frame option out of shield which is amazing.

That being said Zelda still has a frame 6 option - her up B which still kills very well in Ultimate. Zelda still benefits from shield, if not more so, compared to smash 4. With better lightning kick and faster up B (used to take longer) and killing/combo throws Shielding benefits Zelda a lot.

Dthrow combos till pretty high percent, but it is DI dependent so you gotta practice your reads and DI followups. From time to time you will get your dthrow into lightning kick that kills insanely early close to the ledge. Upthrow kills at around 130% depending on the character, very useful if you just can't catch them otherwise. Also you can use phantom and lightning kick to condition your opponent into shielding and grab them instead.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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#7
Jimster Jimster What you're saying, is absolutely insane. Universa Frame 3 jumpsquat? Frame 6 kick?? This is just massive. Suddenly shielding becomes such a great option for me. I was so afraid of shielding that I just tried to rely on the extended dash dancing for everything. It's a pretty big bonus if you say kick is fairly safe, even if you don't sweetspot.

How do I approach ICs? I feel I couldn't anything to them. Can't even grab, since the other just hits me no matter what...
 

Jimster

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#8
Jimster Jimster What you're saying, is absolutely insane. Universa Frame 3 jumpsquat? Frame 6 kick?? This is just massive. Suddenly shielding becomes such a great option for me. I was so afraid of shielding that I just tried to rely on the extended dash dancing for everything. It's a pretty big bonus if you say kick is fairly safe, even if you don't sweetspot.

How do I approach ICs? I feel I couldn't anything to them. Can't even grab, since the other just hits me no matter what...
I meant kick is fairly safe if you get the sweet spot, if you don' then.... It is much easier to get nowadays though.

I barely ran into ICs so not gonna comment, but the other IC can't act while one of them is being grappled. Although they may be able to interrupt your throw follow up. I imagine Phantom should be a decent tool against IC though, as a wall you can block the ice blocks and din's fire. Against project users phantom din's has been wining some neutrals for me and force approach
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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#9
Thank you for taking your time for such a topic.
No worries. It's always good to gather information.
How do you use it offensively? The most easy to remember (and probably best) applications so far is using it to edgeguard so you kind of always force a low recovery. The other one is to simply apply pressure, while you're on the opposite side and maybe get a follow-up out of it.

Since this was only my first time playing, I didn't give it much use. I don't know how the phases of the charge work. It sems like it would take too long to fully charge, but maybe that's just me. What are the applications for the lower charges for, even?
I went in depth in the social topic and other posters found more charge levels since then in the moveset discussion topic. So I don't really want to hash it out again. I suggest reading both my post as well as the moveset discussion posts for specific info on charges. As for using it in practice, that's a little difficult to figure out currently. To give an example, Little Mac is trapped at the ledge and you currently have center stage. Shield lag is pretty bad due to the mechanic change, so it's easier to trap people in shield. One way of mitigating this is jumping out of shield due to the quick frames as illustrated by Jimster's post above. To avoid Phantom's charge, one would need to jump pretty high(double jump). Aerial mobility is good but not as good as on the ground. If you know where he's going to jump you can place Din's Fire there and he will be forced to air dodge or counter to not get hit, if he can even react at all. That's your cue to move in and punish that and send him offstage in an edgeguard situation.

You want to take advantage of the pace of the game and make your opponent panic and do a bad option. Then slowly box them in untill they no longer have any options left but to fall into your attack. Every time you force an option that makes your opponent increasingly slower and gives you time to charge Phantom to set up another strategy. You want to be hitting where your opponent is going to be not where they are currently at. That way you can continue barrages of Phantoms despite the charge time.

Of course that's easier said than done and it's been a bit of a struggle figuring out how you go about doing that. You'll likely need a lot of character knowledge and precision as well as the ability to grasp your opponents style. Zelda's not so straightforward this time around and is probably going to have a steep learning curve.

It definitely saved me from a few sticky situations. It has some form of disjoint and/or priority that seemed to beat a lot things...I just found myself using it premptively, as if to cover when I whiff moves in neutral.
That's the right idea. It's a bit like a defensive version of Smash 4 Sheik's Vanish and acts like a pseudo counter. Use it for all things defense, just be aware that disjoints large enough and long lasting enough might be able to hit through it safely.
How is the move staling in this game? I'm worried it might not kill if I stale it too much. But on the other hand, it's a lot better than letting me opponent land for free.

How do I cover landings better?
I haven't noticed too many problems with staling. Zelda's damage is pretty huge so her moves can survive subsequent uses. Not like she uses them too much in a row to matter too much anyway. Covering landings really depends on distance character and stage I think. Phantom charges appropriate for the situation as well as Din's Fire and Farore's Wind can all cover landings. In certain situations like your opponent running off a platform fair/bair can work as well. You can sometimes jump away to adjust the distance necessary to successfully land Farore's Wind. You might sacrifice some power but it should still be enough to knock them off stage in most cases and combo into a dash attack at low percents in certain situations or give you stage control/setup time. Try and time your attack just before they land and you might catch them in that awkward situation where they need to concentrate on landing as well as defending your attack. You can sometimes trigger a brain freeze. A lot of it's prediction and setup so try and have a plan based on what they're doing at the time.
Do you mean because it's around Frame 10? I just see you get the most out of it, and it's not like there are a whole lot better approach options. I tried D-Tilt, but it's just too short and doesn't seem to combo into too many things.
I mean that it's difficult to grab as most people jump out shield immediately if they feel your charging in for a grab or are constantly hopping around. And maybe it's just me but Zelda's grab feels short and a little wonky. I find D-tilt only really useful for catching people at the ledge currently.
I mean I pretty much hardly ever shielded. Like, ever. Even my friend tend to shield a decent bit, and he still seemed to have gotten stuff like shield grabs and normal punishes by just dropping shield. Maybe we're a bit too vanilla.

I might have exaggerated on it...
Characters are relatively the same as they in 4 in most cases despite the buffs/nerfs. If they had good grabs, dashs, rolls, and OoS options in 4 they still will in Ultimate and can get away with more. Although your friend might just be good, yeah.
I've used a fair bit of Up-B, but a lot of the times I used it to get away rather than getting the kill confirm. I'd be highly willing to try a few things out before the tournament, tomorrow.

I don't have the game, yet. So I go online and try to watch videos and see what I can learn. I don't expect to learn everything I see, so I try to keep things simple for me to apply in the game.
I meant too scared to Up-b out of shield and running Up-b. I actually use quite it frequently for movement and punishes. I did try it OoS today and it wasn't as risky as I thought. I was worried that the angles were difficult and whiffing it would mean a big punish. So I was going to wait till I had distance and timing down in regards to DI. It's fairly easy to hit but not the sweet-spot unless the opponent is right next to you. However, people are on the look out for it and will spot dodge or roll.

I'm the opposite where I am playing too much to watch anything.
Jimster Jimster What you're saying, is absolutely insane. Universa Frame 3 jumpsquat? Frame 6 kick?? This is just massive. Suddenly shielding becomes such a great option for me. I was so afraid of shielding that I just tried to rely on the extended dash dancing for everything. It's a pretty big bonus if you say kick is fairly safe, even if you don't sweetspot.

How do I approach ICs? I feel I couldn't anything to them. Can't even grab, since the other just hits me no matter what...
Don't get too excited about shields. It's better but people are finding ways to counter OoS options. Characters with quick disjoints will still space around shield covering every option. Lighting Kick still has the same weaknesses as it did before. It might be faster in startup but is long lasting and has relatively greater endlag than a lot of aerials. It will definitely not be safe on sour-spot or whiff. Although I'm not totally sure, in certain cases it might be possible to cross-up both spots on shield and sour-spot on hit if timed with the opponents attack. It still needs more testing though.

As for ICs their disjoints seem short and Nana is kinda dumb. Try using the Phantom to knock Nana off stage. They're recovery is a total joke when she's gone and shouldn't even be allowed to attempt when that happens.
 
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D

Deleted member 189823

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#10
Came back from my first tournament. Didn't do so bad, but I felt my performance was underwhleming in a few areas. Like, the quality of my spacing would reduce as I the hours went on. Tournaments really test your endurance, both from the nerves and simply having to wait.

I'm very tired right now, so I'll try to see on the things I've observed.

- Looks like I'm kind of getting the hand of juggling. Looks like you can be really annoying by jsut following them on the ground and catching landings with U-Tilts, N-Airs, and sometimes even F-Smashes for kills.
- I getting D-Tilt > Kick kind of consistently. I read someome say it combos if you'rd "frame perfect", so I tried to be as fast as I could.
- My approaches could still be a little smarter, but I manage bait with dash dances a lot better for stuff like Grabs.
- Apparently I keep forgetting Down B exists. Had 2-3 people tell me that today, at least.
- Pikachu is one of those annoying small characters with diagonal approaches with electric disjoints. A lot harder to bait a whiff and just Grab.
- Doggy Villager kicked my ass, Game 1. It was like an even weirder Villager...it that was even possible. Adapted far better when I started avoiding the rockets, the fishing rod and the ocassional grabs. Timing Nayru is a lot harder, since her slingshot is really fast.
- Apparently I can't read a jump to Kick to save my life. Readding Diddy's high Monkey Flip wasn't always that easy for me to catch.
- Can't Kick OoS on a GC controller. Like, at all. **** would've been game-changer.


All in all, had a ton of fun. Getting into the flow of the game, and becoming a lot less stiff from Day 1. Got 9th out 58, for whatever it's worth...
Oh yeah, also did far better against ICs. Felt like I couldn't even approach before, but now I feel far more bold at the matchup. That was good advice, that you grab one of them without being interrupted.
 
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Jimster

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#11
Came back from my first tournament. Didn't do so bad, but I felt my performance was underwhleming in a few areas. Like, the quality of my spacing would reduce as I the hours went on. Tournaments really test your endurance, both from the nerves and simply having to wait.

I'm very tired right now, so I'll try to see on the things I've observed.

- Looks like I'm kind of getting the hand of juggling. Looks like you can be really annoying by jsut following them on the ground and catching landings with U-Tilts, N-Airs, and sometimes even F-Smashes for kills.
- I getting D-Tilt > Kick kind of consistently. I read someome say it combos if you'rd "frame perfect", so I tried to be as fast as I could.
- My approaches could still be a little smarter, but I manage bait with dash dances a lot better for stuff like Grabs.
- Apparently I keep forgetting Down B exists. Had 2-3 people tell me that today, at least.
- Pikachu is one of those annoying small characters with diagonal approaches with electric disjoints. A lot harder to bait a whiff and just Grab.
- Doggy Villager kicked my ***, Game 1. It was like an even weirder Villager...it that was even possible. Adapted far better when I started avoiding the rockets, the fishing rod and the ocassional grabs. Timing Nayru is a lot harder, since her slingshot is really fast.
- Apparently I can't read a jump to Kick to save my life. Readding Diddy's high Monkey Flip wasn't always that easy for me to catch.
- Can't Kick OoS on a GC controller. Like, at all. **** would've been game-changer.


All in all, had a ton of fun. Getting into the flow of the game, and becoming a lot less stiff from Day 1. Got 9th out 58, for whatever it's worth...
Oh yeah, also did far better against ICs. Felt like I couldn't even approach before, but now I feel far more bold at the matchup. That was good advice, that you grab one of them without being interrupted.
What happened with lightning kick out of shield of GC controller? Would that be x/y then side A?
 

Oracull

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#12
Adding on to the IC matchup, I notice they have a hard time getting down from the air. I've managed to get many up-airs and up-smashes safely as they descend.

Returning to semi-competitive play after a while. I'm no serious player, but I've been recording my own matchup notes too while I play online (link if you're interested).
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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#13
What happened with lightning kick out of shield of GC controller? Would that be x/y then side A?
I keep roling, for reason. It's like I have to wait a split second inputting a direction after I press Jump. And even then, I keep getting a FH when I do the concious effort. I remember I could virtually press both at the same time in other games (or at least very close to each other).

That, or I might've never needed to do it before. Maybe it's the switch from Wii Classic Pro.
 

StoicPhantom

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#14
Came back from my first tournament. Didn't do so bad, but I felt my performance was underwhleming in a few areas. Like, the quality of my spacing would reduce as I the hours went on. Tournaments really test your endurance, both from the nerves and simply having to wait.
I think the game in general is really taxing on your physical and mental stamina. I came off a way too long Smash marathon yesterday and was completely drained. I going to have to pace myself better. And I think needing to be one or two steps ahead of your opponent and constantly on the ball in order to remain competitive with Zelda definitely doesn't help matters.
- Looks like I'm kind of getting the hand of juggling. Looks like you can be really annoying by jsut following them on the ground and catching landings with U-Tilts, N-Airs, and sometimes even F-Smashes for kills.
I think so too. Up-air seems to only really be useful well above any platforms where your opponent can't air dodge to them. That being said it can be really effective against floaty characters in the air if they don't have a good Down-air. The closer you are to the ceiling the harder it seems to be for your opponent to avoid so that may be a good finisher to a launched opponent if you can make it there in time.
Juggling an air camping King Dedede after successfully hitting him is pretty sweet payback for all those times he lag camped in 4 and has since attempted to in Ultimate.
- I getting D-Tilt > Kick kind of consistently. I read someome say it combos if you'rd "frame perfect", so I tried to be as fast as I could.
If you have to be that perfect that might be a little beyond me. I'm already having difficulty keeping up with the speed let alone being frame perfect with D-Tilt lol.
- My approaches could still be a little smarter, but I manage bait with dash dances a lot better for stuff like Grabs.
I've always thought her dash dance was really good in 4 and would do that as well. With Ultimate's changes she can get quite a lot off of it. My favorite things to do with it is forward smash for the KO and as a ledge getup bait. I want to try running Up-B with it because that looks really good but it's a little difficult to do and kind of risky.
- Apparently I keep forgetting Down B exists. Had 2-3 people tell me that today, at least.
It helps!
- Pikachu is one of those annoying small characters with diagonal approaches with electric disjoints. A lot harder to bait a whiff and just Grab.
I've only played one Pikachu so far somehow but Nayru's Love seemed to be good at stopping charges and he KOs really early with Zelda but those combos and that edgeguard are monsters. I'm not entirely sure but it seems Up-B OoS might be able to power through multi-hits on shield. I managed to do it in the middle of Luigi's dash attack so it might be very useful in the Pikachu match-up given how early it KOs and how much Pikachu likes to multi-hit shields. I don't have anywhere near enough Pikachu experience to be definitive though.
- Doggy Villager kicked my ***, Game 1. It was like an even weirder Villager...it that was even possible. Adapted far better when I started avoiding the rockets, the fishing rod and the ocassional grabs. Timing Nayru is a lot harder, since her slingshot is really fast.
I feel like she might be one of Zelda's worst match-ups and potentially her worst. F-air combos really well in this game and even had a Villager carry me to the side blast zone one time. Up-air is really good at juggling and comes out super quick and the rocket is minor but still an annoyance when she plants it center stage. Her fishing rod not only can grab people at the ledge, it can hang over the ledge and grab our recovery on the way to its destination preventing us from recovering low. She's fast, small, and overall a really mobile camper and she has Villager's Pocket so can nullify the Phantom. Thankfully I haven't come across a good one or one that knows they can pocket Phantom but I can see the potential.
I keep roling, for reason. It's like I have to wait a split second inputting a direction after I press Jump. And even then, I keep getting a FH when I do the concious effort. I remember I could virtually press both at the same time in other games (or at least very close to each other).

That, or I might've never needed to do it before. Maybe it's the switch from Wii Classic Pro.
I have the same problem. And I don't remember that being a problem before. Do you have an official one or a third-party one? Mine's an iconcepts Game Fury. It's pretty cheap(in a bad way).
 
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Jimster

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#15
I keep roling, for reason. It's like I have to wait a split second inputting a direction after I press Jump. And even then, I keep getting a FH when I do the concious effort. I remember I could virtually press both at the same time in other games (or at least very close to each other).

That, or I might've never needed to do it before. Maybe it's the switch from Wii Classic Pro.
The move buffering system works a little differently in Ultimate. Have you tried holding down jump, side and attack at the same time? It worked pretty well for me
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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#16
I think the game in general is really taxing on your physical and mental stamina. I came off a way too long Smash marathon yesterday and was completely drained. I going to have to pace myself better. And I think needing to be one or two steps ahead of your opponent and constantly on the ball in order to remain competitive with Zelda definitely doesn't help matters.
I think the taxing part was having to wait a lot between sets. I had insane energy at the of the start of the tournament, but really wore off between nerves and mostly waiting so long. You kind of get used to nerves when it comes to playing, a while. They're there, but it doesn't affect my play that much.

Juggling an air camping King Dedede after successfully hitting him is pretty sweet payback for all those times he lag camped in 4 and has since attempted to in Ultimate.
yeah **** those guys

If you have to be that perfect that might be a little beyond me. I'm already having difficulty keeping up with the speed let alone being frame perfect with D-Tilt lol.
I don't think there's much of a way around it. I once asked Nick Riddle in Smash 4 how he manges to react so quick to ZSS' N-air > Spike. He told me you just have to react to it...I managed to pull it off a decent bit, so I doubt it's that bad.

It's not just you, though. The game is definitely pretty damn fast. I play fairly aggressive and do a lot of Dash Dance game, so I have to think really fast to be able to get out of range and punish. Had a lot of trouble playing that game against Inkling, however...

I've always thought her dash dance was really good in 4 and would do that as well. With Ultimate's changes she can get quite a lot off of it. My favorite things to do with it is forward smash for the KO and as a ledge getup bait.
I looked for it a lot, but I'm not sure why I had such a hard time landing it. I had an easier time getting F-Smashes after juggles (when they didn't have many landing options). So far, F-Smash is my best kill move. Multi-hit, good on shield. Never once failed to kill for me. Ever. U-Smash just takes very good vertical reads, but it can't hit platforms very well and just locks you up, horizontally.

I've only played one Pikachu so far somehow but Nayru's Love seemed to be good at stopping charges and he KOs really early with Zelda but those combos and that edgeguard are monsters. I'm not entirely sure but it seems Up-B OoS might be able to power through multi-hits on shield. I managed to do it in the middle of Luigi's dash attack so it might be very useful in the Pikachu match-up given how early it KOs and how much Pikachu likes to multi-hit shields. I don't have anywhere near enough Pikachu experience to be definitive though.
Good advice. Remind me to just stuff his approaches with Nayru's, next time.


I feel like she might be one of Zelda's worst match-ups and potentially her worst. F-air combos really well in this game and even had a Villager carry me to the side blast zone one time. Up-air is really good at juggling and comes out super quick and the rocket is minor but still an annoyance when she plants it center stage. Her fishing rod not only can grab people at the ledge, it can hang over the ledge and grab our recovery on the way to its destination preventing us from recovering low. She's fast, small, and overall a really mobile camper and she has Villager's Pocket so can nullify the Phantom. Thankfully I haven't come across a good one or one that knows they can pocket Phantom but I can see the potential.
Well, lucky for me, I think it's good this is my first. I managed to adapt very fast by Game 2. Looks like you can disable the rockets by using Nayru's on top of them. I managed to avoid the fishing rod at the edge after a while, which is where it tend to got me. This left the slingshot as her most annoying tool, and I tried switching between Nayru's and ducking. Shielding projectiles in this game is very weird for me, so I could barely go there.

Guess that's just another reason to go Phantom.

I have the same problem. And I don't remember that being a problem before. Do you have an official one or a third-party one? Mine's an iconcepts Game Fury. It's pretty cheap(in a bad way).
It's one of the old, originals. I just took it as a personal, technical flaw.

Down throw into bair works at most points up until very high percents. Works true at almost all those percents too.
I take it this means the DI has to be right and you have to be frame perfect about it...I don't remember them being that close at the higher percents, let alone "very high" ones. Maybe, like with D-Tilt > F-air, I need to buffer the run better.

Returning to semi-competitive play after a while. I'm no serious player, but I've been recording my own matchup notes too while I play online (link if you're interested).
That's the sort of idea I tend to go for, but even better organised.

The move buffering system works a little differently in Ultimate. Have you tried holding down jump, side and attack at the same time? It worked pretty well for me
Seemed a little hard to picture for me at first, but I'll give it a go.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#17
I don't think there's much of a way around it. I once asked Nick Riddle in Smash 4 how he manges to react so quick to ZSS' N-air > Spike. He told me you just have to react to it...I managed to pull it off a decent bit, so I doubt it's that bad.

It's not just you, though. The game is definitely pretty damn fast. I play fairly aggressive and do a lot of Dash Dance game, so I have to think really fast to be able to get out of range and punish. Had a lot of trouble playing that game against Inkling, however...
I just find D-Tilt a little awkward to use with the new control scheme. I used the tilt stick almost exclusively in 4 but with the new short-hop my thumb is resting on the A button instead. I'm getting better at quickly switching between the two but a bigger problem now is actually finding a use for it. It's hard to hit a low poke in a game where characters only need to touch the ground for the briefest of moments before being back in the air swinging a giant sword in your face. The only time I've landed one in recent memory was a running D-Tilt to 2-frame at the ledge. There wasn't any real follow-ups though.

Inkling is pretty difficult and I haven't managed to piece together a real strategy for her. She seems to be in a speed class that's near game-breaking and seems to brute force through any strategy or spacing. I go even with most Inklings I face but they always seem to run when they get their one win after mine. The only tricks I've found other than playing perfect is to Up-B punish grenade and her ink charging as well as shield or Nayru the roller. Seems you can pre-empt roller with Fsmash but the timing is tricky with some big risk to it. I can handle the neutral and fending off her attacks but when it comes time to KO and when she starts camping is when things get real difficult.
I looked for it a lot, but I'm not sure why I had such a hard time landing it. I had an easier time getting F-Smashes after juggles (when they didn't have many landing options). So far, F-Smash is my best kill move. Multi-hit, good on shield. Never once failed to kill for me. Ever. U-Smash just takes very good vertical reads, but it can't hit platforms very well and just locks you up, horizontally.
It's hitbox is pretty precise and you might need to space it a little further than other moves out of the dash and definitely don't charge it on some faster characters. I find it better as a ledge get up/ledge roll and an overaggressive chase punish.

Up-smash is weird to me in this game and I don't find many uses for it currently. Up-Tilt is better for platforms and a panic move for assaults from above but seems to trade a lot. I can only really catch landings and even that's difficult with the insane speed everyone has. I've heard that Up-Smash has a lot of priority but thats difficult to visualize with its short reach. I feel like Zelda is lacking in anti-air in general.
Good advice. Remind me to just stuff his approaches with Nayru's, next time.
I may have misremembered on the Luigi thing and he actually came out behind me instead. I can't find the replay and others have put me in too much shield stun. Maybe instead try doing it as soon as he passes through. I can't really lab it and I haven't played a Pikachu since so I dunno.
Well, lucky for me, I think it's good this is my first. I managed to adapt very fast by Game 2. Looks like you can disable the rockets by using Nayru's on top of them. I managed to avoid the fishing rod at the edge after a while, which is where it tend to got me. This left the slingshot as her most annoying tool, and I tried switching between Nayru's and ducking. Shielding projectiles in this game is very weird for me, so I could barely go there.

Guess that's just another reason to go Phantom.
I was worried she might punish the endlag with fair but I don't know where the reflection ends relative to the endlag. Phantom can be used as a wall for projectiles just be careful she doesn't pocket it. The hit-stun on projectiles is insane in this game. I got bodied by a Duck Hunt yesterday who trapped me in this seemingly never ending wall that I didn't used to have difficulties with.
It's one of the old, originals. I just took it as a personal, technical flaw.
I meant to test the Joycons today cause I don't remember having this issue before but I forgot. I'll try to remember next time I play. I think I heard there was some input lag with wired controllers in this game. Maybe that's the issue? I don't think so but I definitely don't remember having this problem.
I take it this means the DI has to be right and you have to be frame perfect about it...I don't remember them being that close at the higher percents, let alone "very high" ones. Maybe, like with D-Tilt > F-air, I need to buffer the run better.
Yeah, I'm going to need some clarification on that too. Players with good DI who play fast characters seem to DI before I can follow-up. I can sometimes trick them on flat stages into air-dodging and then punish their landing though. Maybe I'm just not fast enough but those characters can get some serious distance with their DI.
 
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Deleted member 189823

Guest
#18
I just find D-Tilt a little awkward to use with the new control scheme. I used the tilt stick almost exclusively in 4 but with the new short-hop my thumb is resting on the A button instead. I'm getting better at quickly switching between the two but a bigger problem now is actually finding a use for it. It's hard to hit a low poke in a game where characters only need to touch the ground for the briefest of moments before being back in the air swinging a giant sword in your face.
I was feeling similiar towards it on Day 1, but also partly because not used to it's follow-ups. I just started landing it regularly on the tournament day. It does feel a bit short, but you also mention a sort of situation you might be able to duck under hitboxes if they land or something weird like that. Being able to duck under Pit's arrows can't be that bad.

The only time I've landed one in recent memory was a running D-Tilt to 2-frame at the ledge. There wasn't any real follow-ups though.
That calls for some mischief, in the future... :3

Inkling is pretty difficult and I haven't managed to piece together a real strategy for her. She seems to be in a speed class that's near game-breaking and seems to brute force through any strategy or spacing. I go even with most Inklings I face but they always seem to run when they get their one win after mine. The only tricks I've found other than playing perfect is to Up-B punish grenade and her ink charging as well as shield or Nayru the roller. Seems you can pre-empt roller with Fsmash but the timing is tricky with some big risk to it. I can handle the neutral and fending off her attacks but when it comes time to KO and when she starts camping is when things get real difficult.
Can't say I can relate, yet. He was a very new Inkling simply trying him out. Their Dash Dance is extremely fast, nevertheless.


I was worried she might punish the endlag with fair but I don't know where the reflection ends relative to the endlag. Phantom can be used as a wall for projectiles just be careful she doesn't pocket it. The hit-stun on projectiles is insane in this game. I got bodied by a Duck Hunt yesterday who trapped me in this seemingly never ending wall that I didn't used to have difficulties with.
See if you can play projectiles characters more often. I knew something like that could be trouble, so it's better if I just try to deal with it now than later. I actually find myself Wavelanding against some projectiles succesfully...it seems like a decent option in paper, given

1) You don't roll and have your back facing closer to your opponent.
2) Shielding kind of sucks, unless you're perfect.
3) Nayru's is very laggy against thinsg like Isabella's F-air
4) The landing lag after Wavelanding doesn't seem that bad

Guess practicing your pseudo Wavedashes has it's uses...
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#19
I was feeling similiar towards it on Day 1, but also partly because not used to it's follow-ups. I just started landing it regularly on the tournament day. It does feel a bit short, but you also mention a sort of situation you might be able to duck under hitboxes if they land or something weird like that. Being able to duck under Pit's arrows can't be that bad.
Probably. I find it better to reflect them in most cases though. Otherwise Pit could potentially keep spamming them if he has the lead and you wouldn't gain much ground. At least with reflecting them it gives him an incentive to stop. Although this could just be a playstyle difference because I don't think I used it much in 4. I was more about grab combos and reading for big damage than a lot of different combos. I kind of am still although I'm replacing grabs with Phantom and Farore stuff since I'm finding it hard to land a grab in this game.
That calls for some mischief, in the future... :3
Hopefully you'll figure out and land follow-ups better than I can.
Can't say I can relate, yet. He was a very new Inkling simply trying him out. Their Dash Dance is extremely fast, nevertheless.
Yeah, sometimes I feel like we are talking about different things lol. When you get the game, if you haven't already, and get better and if you play online and reach Elite, you'll see what I'm talking about in regards to D-Tilt and grabs as well as match-ups in general. Things are pretty brutal up there currently and is full of all of Zelda's difficult match-ups. That dash dance is what makes Inkling so difficult and part of why it's difficult to actually hit her.
See if you can play projectiles characters more often. I knew something like that could be trouble, so it's better if I just try to deal with it now than later. I actually find myself Wavelanding against some projectiles succesfully...it seems like a decent option in paper, given

1) You don't roll and have your back facing closer to your opponent.
2) Shielding kind of sucks, unless you're perfect.
3) Nayru's is very laggy against thinsg like Isabella's F-air
4) The landing lag after Wavelanding doesn't seem that bad

Guess practicing your pseudo Wavedashes has it's uses...
Yeah, sword characters are all the rage currently, so I don't run into many projectile characters but they're definitely dark horses.

I didn't play much of Melee so I don't know much about all the tech there or how to do it. So I can't help you there, unfortunately.
 

StoicPhantom

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Messages
408
#21
I finally tested the controllers like I promised. Seems it does happen on both the GC as well as the Joycons. If you continue holding shield after the Fair, you'll either buffer a shield or a roll. I don't know why this seems to happen randomly but it does buffer rolls sometimes.

As for rolling beforehand, I think that's just a misinput. If you slightly press one of the buttons (usually Y)before the other, normally you'll just do a SH Nair and if you press the stick a little early you'll still Fair. But you seem to be held to much stricter standards while in shield and will roll if you do either of those things. So I think we can chalk this up to a very subtle misinput.
 
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Deleted member 189823

Guest
#22
Strange observation,

I think I realise why I see Zelda a little faster than she actually is. Since I use a lot of Extended Dash-Dancing (or pretty much Foxthrots), it might be a reason as to why she's faster:

1545269983835.png


I forgot that's pretty much my default running mode. Literally. That may also explain why she feels slower when I just hold the stick for the actual, running animation.

Goes to say how whack I am for this mechanic.
 

Jimster

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
33
#23
Strange observation,

I think I realise why I see Zelda a little faster than she actually is. Since I use a lot of Extended Dash-Dancing (or pretty much Foxthrots), it might be a reason as to why she's faster:

View attachment 183628

I forgot that's pretty much my default running mode. Literally. That may also explain why she feels slower when I just hold the stick for the actual, running animation.

Goes to say how whack I am for this mechanic.
I actually tested out the other day. If you just foxtrot across the stage you're always a little more than 10% faster than just running for Zelda. While for most other characters you can be slower or just about the same.

Edit: I tested by saving video and replay it on the frame by frame mode
 
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Dcas

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Messages
324
#24
Strange observation,

I think I realise why I see Zelda a little faster than she actually is. Since I use a lot of Extended Dash-Dancing (or pretty much Foxthrots), it might be a reason as to why she's faster:

View attachment 183628

I forgot that's pretty much my default running mode. Literally. That may also explain why she feels slower when I just hold the stick for the actual, running animation.

Goes to say how whack I am for this mechanic.
Zeldas dash speed is above average which basically makes it the best movement option in neutral along with down b, imo those 2 aspects are the cornestone of zelda´s neutral.
 
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Deleted member 189823

Guest
#25
Zeldas dash speed is above average which basically makes it the best movement option in neutral along with down b, imo those 2 aspects are the cornestone of zelda´s neutral.
How is Down B a movement option? lol
 

StoicPhantom

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Messages
408
#27
Welp, I guess that's another thing I'm going to have to practice. I'm used to dash dancing but not the whole time.

I guess since this is a notes thread, I'll contribute some random things I've noticed, that don't really deserve their own topic.

Farore's Wind

It's first hitbox can "parry" other attacks essentially canceling out both hitboxs. Similar to the "clash" in 4, I've noticed when two hitboxs collide they seem to cancel each others hitboxs out and continue the animation uninterrupted. You can "parry" projectiles or other attacks and then escape or punish.

Going along with the above that means opponents can "parry" both hitboxs as well. Careful when punishing preemptive attacks or they might "parry" then punish.

Veteran Zeldas likely already know this but in the game's tips they talk about a "feint". Pressing down while Up-Bing from the ground, will have you teleport in place. Use can use this as a more powerful Nayru's Love and severely punish charges. Try to experiment which attacks you can "parry" with the first hitbox and then punish with second. Hitting the sweet-spot might a little difficult though.

The first hitbox can stage spike if hit at a specific angle. Use it to recover and spike your opponent.

Up-B out of shield is even better with the new lag changes. Kills most characters around 80% and can continue being true, close or up to, the mid-100s. Use it on opponents trying to cross you up. Careful though, some attacks are simply too safe and your opponent will shield or jump. If they jump it will pop them up at a weird angle, which will make it difficult to react and sweet-spot.

This last one is theoretical, since I don't have the technical skill to pull this off yet. I'm experimenting with buffering Up-B out of fully charged Phantom. Might be useful against reflectors and punish them. Hopefully the Phantom will be able to cover any endlag if you hit a shield.

Aerials

I've noticed certain sour-spot aerials can make the opponent trip occasionally. I'm unsure what causes this exactly but could be useful, if it isn't random.

Up-air is still a bit of a mystery but seems to have lengthy hitboxs directly above and to the side. It doesn't seem to have any real length in any other direction. Is heavily disjointed and can even beat Link Dair. Can be juggled into itself, high above any platform as the opponent doesn't have much room to work with.

Dair is a combo starter when sweet-spotted, since the new stage spikes on stage are not techable. May be a better OoS option than Fair since you can combo Up-B at mid-percents. Timing is a little tricky though.

I'll post more as they come or if I remember anymore.

Edit: Forgot to mention you can cancel grabs by pressing grab. Not sure if that was in other Smash games as well but can be useful if they try to punish your ledge get-up with grab.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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#28
Veteran Zeldas likely already know this but in the game's tips they talk about a "feint". Pressing down while Up-Bing from the ground, will have you teleport in place. Use can use this as a more powerful Nayru's Love and severely punish charges. Try to experiment which attacks you can "parry" with the first hitbox and then punish with second. Hitting the sweet-spot might a little difficult though.
Given what we now know about how much stronger OoS punishes are, this definitely gives it an edge when you're sititng in shield. Not only that, but it's actually like twice as fast. I've personally used it a lot as a traditional Up-B OoS, but a lot of the times it was just to get away. I also used it as a sort of spotdodge, a few times.

Up-B out of shield is even better with the new lag changes. Kills most characters around 80% and can continue being true, close or up to, the mid-100s. Use it on opponents trying to cross you up. Careful though, some attacks are simply too safe and your opponent will shield or jump. If they jump it will pop them up at a weird angle, which will make it difficult to react and sweet-spot.
It's important to notice it's launching angle. It definitely won't kill at about 120 cross-stage if you "aim" wrong. I noticed it will kill a lot earlier if you do it with her facing forward and as close to where you're sending them (i.e at the edge). This may sound like it's very obvious, but there were many times it didn't kill for me when it should've had.

It's it possible to B-Reverse it?

Up-air is still a bit of a mystery but seems to have lengthy hitboxs directly above and to the side. It doesn't seem to have any real length in any other direction. Is heavily disjointed and can even beat Link Dair. Can be juggled into itself, high above any platform as the opponent doesn't have much room to work with.
This is absolutely massive. I needed to know this. Wasn't using U-air anywhere as much...

Dair is a combo starter when sweet-spotted, since the new stage spikes on stage are not techable. May be a better OoS option than Fair since you can combo Up-B at mid-percents. Timing is a little tricky though.
Frame data-wise, you're looking at around 17 frames, between jump and attack. In that sense, it's not all that cool. But then again, it's kind of the contrary to F-air. F-air is Frame 9 (with Jump OoS) but it might be as easy to hit, while I can see a sort of mixup in D-air. Samus in Brawl uses a lot D-air, and sometimes even OoS. It's a strange mixup, but works more than it looks like.

Edit: Forgot to mention you can cancel grabs by pressing grab. Not sure if that was in other Smash games as well but can be useful if they try to punish your ledge get-up with grab.
You mean that sort of clashing effect? I might've come across it, once or twice.



If you guys can, I'd like you to experiment on our FH aerials. I'd like to know if it's possible to FH and sweetspot our kicks and D-air out of a Full Hop. Chances are, you'll only hit the taller guys.

What I'd like to know:

- I heard soft D-air can actually combo into kill moves at pretty high percents (past 100%).
- How quick can you act out of a FH kick? Can you do something else before you hit the ground?
- If F/B-air do hit shorter people, any chance we send them into tumble?
 
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StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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#29
Given what we now know about how much stronger OoS punishes are, this definitely gives it an edge when you're sititng in shield. Not only that, but it's actually like twice as fast. I've personally used it a lot as a traditional Up-B OoS, but a lot of the times it was just to get away. I also used it as a sort of spotdodge, a few times.
It's really good now. Provided you do it on an attack laggy enough, it's an instant KO on most characters at 80%. It helps in those match-ups where the opponent won't stop moving and is super safe all the time. When they make that one error, you can have an instant inescapable KO. Given its speed, it's incredibly hard to DI now, if it's even possible in the first place.
Given what we now know about how much stronger OoS punishes are, this definitely gives it an edge when you're sititng in shield. Not only that, but it's actually like twice as fast. I've personally used it a lot as a traditional Up-B OoS, but a lot of the times it was just to get away. I also used it as a sort of spotdodge, a few times.


It's important to notice it's launching angle. It definitely won't kill at about 120 cross-stage if you "aim" wrong. I noticed it will kill a lot earlier if you do it with her facing forward and as close to where you're sending them (i.e at the edge). This may sound like it's very obvious, but there were many times it didn't kill for me when it should've had.

It's it possible to B-Reverse it?
I tested in training and it doesn't seem to make any difference which way she's facing so that might just be placebo. The sweet-spot seems to be Zelda herself and maybe a tiny bit around her so hitting anywhere in there should do it.

I don't think it's possible to B-Reverse it. You need to input where you're going in the first place and she seems to face which ever way you aim, except up, where she will face where she initially was.
This is absolutely massive. I needed to know this. Wasn't using U-air anywhere as much...
Yep. I haven't run into any Dair that can challenge it yet. I'm not entirely sure but her sweet-spots seem to go through super-armor as well so I think Up-air can beat super-armor attacks and recoveries. I've definitely Fair'd through super-armor before and even beat Charizard's Flare Blitz on accident one time. The problem with Up-air though, is tagging people with it, not necessarily beating out attacks. Zelda's mobility is a bit of a hindrance in this endeavor sometimes.
Frame data-wise, you're looking at around 17 frames, between jump and attack. In that sense, it's not all that cool. But then again, it's kind of the contrary to F-air. F-air is Frame 9 (with Jump OoS) but it might be as easy to hit, while I can see a sort of mixup in D-air. Samus in Brawl uses a lot D-air, and sometimes even OoS. It's a strange mixup, but works more than it looks like.
Yeah, I should probably start reading on frame data and stop trying to eyeball it in a match.. I first got that idea fighting a Zelda who was pretty good with that. I think its potential strength in this case is being a little safer than Fair, which everyone is looking out for now and is pretty difficult to land, period. It almost seems like the sour-spot on shield is safe when crossing up, due to the shield stun but I'm not sure on that and I don't know if that applies OoS either. If you can land it, I think an Up-B follow-up is better than anything Fair can do and is easier to pull off.
You mean that sort of clashing effect? I might've come across it, once or twice.
It looks like the clash from 4 and your hands glow green when it happens, for some reason. I don't know if it was always in Smash but it feels exactly like the grab escape from other fighting games, not two grabs clanking. I first discovered it when those grab escape instincts kicked in that I got from playing other fighting games.
If you guys can, I'd like you to experiment on our FH aerials. I'd like to know if it's possible to FH and sweetspot our kicks and D-air out of a Full Hop. Chances are, you'll only hit the taller guys.

What I'd like to know:

- I heard soft D-air can actually combo into kill moves at pretty high percents (past 100%).
- How quick can you act out of a FH kick? Can you do something else before you hit the ground?
- If F/B-air do hit shorter people, any chance we send them into tumble?
Full-hops go pretty high in this game so you sail right over any character. You can Dair but might miss the sweet-spot on any character shorter than a heavy.

- Up-B between 145-160% before it stops laddering and Fair at 179% are the only true combos I've found. I didn't test any higher since a simple Up-Tilt will do it by then. You might be able to beat average human reaction time or force a panic option from there but those are the only true combos I've found.
- You can't. You can buffer a landing option but fast-falling will likely be the only real way to go. You don't really want to hang around too much in the air with Zelda anyway.
-See above for ground, I think aerial just sends them flying.

All that was tested on Mario in training so you might need to adjust for any height and weight differences.

All of that testing did confirm that sour-spot Dair trips people on occasion but I didn't see any trend or pattern that would explain why. It might just be random so keep an eye out.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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#30
Just try to keep it simple. Pretty sure U-Smash OoS is still a thing, so that means a Frame 9 kill move OoS.
 

Jimster

Smash Cadet
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Messages
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#31
Just try to keep it simple. Pretty sure U-Smash OoS is still a thing, so that means a Frame 9 kill move OoS.
Up smash oos is definitely a thing. The bad news being its terrible initial hitbox is also still a thing. It’s great for punishing big characters and some risky moves but be very careful when it comes to shorties
 
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Deleted member 189823

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#32
Up smash oos is definitely a thing. The bad news being its terrible initial hitbox is also still a thing. It’s great for punishing big characters and some risky moves but be very careful when it comes to shorties
Do you think we can catch aerials, like Diddy Kong's?

I'm also still curious what that guy meant in D-Throw > Kick working until "very high percents".
 

StoicPhantom

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Messages
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#33
Up smash oos is definitely a thing. The bad news being its terrible initial hitbox is also still a thing. It’s great for punishing big characters and some risky moves but be very careful when it comes to shorties
Yeah, this is kind of my problem with Up-Smash, is its hitbox is wonky and can be kind of hard to land on anything that isn't landings. It doesn't help that there is massive endlag and the move lasts awhile in the first place, while everyone else has a quick and safe Up-Smash, it seems.
Do you think we can catch aerials, like Diddy Kong's?

I'm also still curious what that guy meant in D-Throw > Kick working until "very high percents".
That depends on the aerial I think. I still don't understand Up-Smash and don't use it much so I can't really answer that.

Maybe he was testing in training, forgetting DI is a thing and really good for some characters?
 

Jimster

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Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
33
#34
Do you think we can catch aerials, like Diddy Kong's?

I'm also still curious what that guy meant in D-Throw > Kick working until "very high percents".
I don’t think we can just because how fast Diddy falls and how far he can drift unless you get your usmash out before diddy uses fair (hand invincibility). Up B may work tho if you block on time and Diddy just fastfalls instead of drifting back? Its just my speculation tho no testing was done.

When I tried to test it in trainning mode I was able to do dthrow into fair at 90% on marcina when they DI away (which is usually the most optimal DI). If they DI in you can uair instead. If they don’t DI at all you should be able to do double jump fair but I haven’t tested. It only makes sense because you don’t need those extra frames for dashing or dropping shield anymore. At even higher percent you can throw them off stage for Zelda’s good edge guarding tools or just bthrow kill. Starting 130% uthrow kills anywhere as well so no point using dthrow anymore.
 
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Deleted member 189823

Guest
#35
You mention, in the other topic, that you would like U-Smash to have a better vertical hitbox. What is your opinion against moves? I'm not very good with catching things as anti-airs for kills, but I usually work with F-Smash because they'll likely drift away from you and it doesn't lock you out, horizontally.

I think I saw Ven park near the ledge and use it to punish ledge jumps, but that's about it.

Maybe he was testing in training, forgetting DI is a thing and really good for some characters?
yeh

When I tried to test it in trainning mode I was able to do dthrow into fair at 90% on marcina when they DI away (which is usually the most optimal DI). If they DI in you can uair instead. If they don’t DI at all you should be able to do double jump fair but I haven’t tested. It only makes sense because you don’t need those extra frames for dashing or dropping shield anymore. At even higher percent you can throw them off stage for Zelda’s good edge guarding tools or just bthrow kill. Starting 130% uthrow kills anywhere as well so no point using dthrow anymore.
Try and see if you can get a friend to DI out, if you haven't. Either way, getting it at 90% is really good, and pretty much a kill on them, center-stage.

Talking about U-Throw, it doesn't seem like all that. I've used it on a couple ocassions at about 140 with rage (120+%) and it failed to kill stuff like Diddy Kong and Inkling, whom aren't exactly heavy... so much for our "Mewtwo-like U-Throw#, M2K.
 
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Jimster

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
33
#36
Yeah, this is kind of my problem with Up-Smash, is its hitbox is wonky and can be kind of hard to land on anything that isn't landings. It doesn't help that there is massive endlag and the move lasts awhile in the first place, while everyone else has a quick and safe Up-Smash, it seems.

That depends on the aerial I think. I still don't understand Up-Smash and don't use it much so I can't really answer that.

Maybe he was testing in training, forgetting DI is a thing and really good for some characters?
Our Up B is basically a safe usmash though, if you react that it failed you can always teleport away making it very hard to punish. In addition it’s now frame 6 so almost smash 4 Witch Twist level punish.

Up smash does have its perks tho. It’s great for punishing ledge getups and ledge jumps for those who like aerials on ledge. It is also amazing for catching landing if your opponent doesn’t have disjoints on aerials or catching air dodges. All these thanks to the long lasting hit box. It is also safer compared to Up B if you completely fail it. That being said the addition of directional air dodge definitely nerfs the viability of usmash
 
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StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#37
I don’t think we can just because how fast Diddy falls and how far he can drift unless you get your usmash out before diddy uses fair (hand invincibility). Up B may work tho if you block on time and Diddy just fastfalls instead of drifting back? Its just my speculation tho no testing was done.

When I tried to test it in trainning mode I was able to do dthrow into fair at 90% on marcina when they DI away (which is usually the most optimal DI). If they DI in you can uair instead. If they don’t DI at all you should be able to do double jump fair but I haven’t tested. It only makes sense because you don’t need those extra frames for dashing or dropping shield anymore. At even higher percent you can throw them off stage for Zelda’s good edge guarding tools or just bthrow kill. Starting 130% uthrow kills anywhere as well so no point using dthrow anymore.
Diddy having invincibility on his hands explains a lot about the one match I've had with him. Did he have that in 4 as well?

I'll keep the throw things in mind. It just seemed like fast characters could DI out of potential follow-ups but maybe I wasn't doing it at the right percentages or timing. Of course getting grabs have been difficult for me period so it may have just been a practice thing.
Our Up B is basically a safe usmash though, if you react that it failed you can always teleport away making it very hard to punish. In addition it’s now frame 6 so almost smash 4 Witch Twist level punish.

Up smash does have its perks tho. It’s great for punishing ledge getups and ledge jumps for those who like aerials on ledge. It is also amazing for catching landing if your opponent doesn’t have disjoints on aerials or catching air dodges. All these thanks to the long lasting hit box. It is also safer compared to Up B if you completely fail it. That being said the addition of directional air dodge definitely nerfs the viability of usmash
I figured the Up-B would be our go to thing now, I've just been trying to figure what to do about platforms currently.

I didn't consider Up-Smash at the ledge so thanks for the tip. Might be easier to pre-empt jumps to the platform instead of punish the landings. I did notice the air-dodge catching thing yesterday and it does seem pretty good for that. Maybe I've been a little too intimidated by the new animation being more towards the sides and need to experiment more.
You mention, in the other topic, that you would like U-Smash to have a better vertical hitbox. What is your opinion against moves? I'm not very good with catching things as anti-airs for kills, but I usually work with F-Smash because they'll likely drift away from you and it doesn't lock you out, horizontally.

I think I saw Ven park near the ledge and use it to punish ledge jumps, but that's about it.
My issue is currently trying to punish landings on platforms. Up-Smash is too short for that and Up-Tilt is slow and lacks the long-lasting hitbox. It also is difficult to combo from in that situation, lacks any sort of real kill power and barely pokes above the platform, making it difficult to hit. Up-Air shoots up a little too high and is also slow and makes us land on the platform in the arms of our opponent. So I feel like there is this weird gap in that range and our opponents can land on the bottom platforms a little too free. I feel like if Up-Smash retained its current aspects while gaining Smash 4 vertical range, it could compete with other Up-Smashes, despite the lag and risk. I hate watching characters like Yoshi being able to run around spamming it with no risk and here I am trying to hit a platform landing but can't reach up there.

Other than that detail, it seems to be heavily disjointed despite appearances and as mentioned in Jimster's above post, only other disjoints see to be able to beat it. I do think I heard it beats Cloud Dair but that seems a little too good to be true. I haven't used it much though so I'm not really sure where its limitations lie.

I have had characters fall out of my Fsmash before so I am hesitant to use it too often for anti-air, given I'm not yet sure why they did. I'll try the ledge trap thing that Ven did, thanks.
Talking about U-Throw, it doesn't seem like all that. I've used it on a couple ocassions at about 140 with rage (120+%) and it failed to kill stuff like Diddy Kong and Inkling, whom aren't exactly heavy... so much for our "Mewtwo-like U-Throw#, M2K.
I think it might depend on stage, what percentage it KOs. Some blast zones are a little ridiculous but stages with reasonable ones will still KO around there. I frequently get the KOs around that percentage on most Battlefield stages I play on. Those characters DI are really good, because of their mobility, so that may interfere there. Sometimes I feel like speed and mobility were overlooked in some aspects and feel a little game-breaking at times. One thing I find really frustrating, is when fast characters abuse the invincibility after a stock, to blitz and get a free stock/damage/stage control. I don't remember having issues with that in Smash 4.
 

Jimster

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
33
#38
Diddy having invincibility on his hands explains a lot about the one match I've had with him. Did he have that in 4 as well?
Actually I meant that Zelda has invincibility (I meant intangibility) on her hands during her up smash. Diddy doesn't have invincibility on his hands, he is just really fast. Also diddy uses his legs for his fair and bair actually. Zelda has quite a few intangibility on her moves. You can test this out by using a bumper in training mode and watch her some of her body during certain moves can hit the bumper without triggering it. Some examples are feet during dair, dtilt and dsmash during the hitbox active frames, hands during usmash, utilt, jab and ftilt. This largely contributes to the reason why her ftilt seemed to have good range, because while her person is moving forward, her hand doesn't actually get hit.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#39
Actually I meant that Zelda has invincibility (I meant intangibility) on her hands during her up smash. Diddy doesn't have invincibility on his hands, he is just really fast. Also diddy uses his legs for his fair and bair actually. Zelda has quite a few intangibility on her moves. You can test this out by using a bumper in training mode and watch her some of her body during certain moves can hit the bumper without triggering it. Some examples are feet during dair, dtilt and dsmash during the hitbox active frames, hands during usmash, utilt, jab and ftilt. This largely contributes to the reason why her ftilt seemed to have good range, because while her person is moving forward, her hand doesn't actually get hit.
That was a bit of a reading comprehension fail on my part lol, sorry about that.

I'll test the intangibility and try to get a feel for the range and potential applications. Only being her hands and feet, makes it seem somewhat limited but I'm sure there will plenty of opportunities.

To add on to the Up-Air thing, I traded with Corrin's Dair yesterday.
 
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Deleted member 189823

Guest
#40
I don't think that many people would care, but I also figured I've really not much to lose, at this point. I'd also rather be transparent and honest about my journey than pretend I'm this hotshot know-it-all.

I did pretty damn bad in yesterday's weekly. Only won 1 set, and it wasn't against very competent players. Was feeling pretty down, even at the start of friendlies, so that didn't help much. Was pretty down about it when I came back home, too. I realise that I don't want to feel like that again, and that losing like that is just pretty bad. Losing feels worse than winning feels good, if that makes sense. As to the actual gameplay, there wasn't really much to take note of. It was very clear I wasn't in shape to do half the things I actually intended to (i.e missing pretty much every single grab follow up)...stuff like that. I really need to get my hands on the game, ASAP.

Again, I don't really feel like I've much to lose by whining about it on the Internet. Only thing this made me realise I'm a lot worse than I've wanted to admit, and that I can only go up, from this point. May as well let it out...
 
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