Overlooking important screenshots.

[_the_sandman_]

Looking at the picture with Mario uppercutting Link, my guess would be that all of the characters have more defense. That way matches would last longer. Think about it, instead of being KO'ed at 100%, characters could be KO'ed at 150%.

 

[GreenMamba]

Or it could just be that they put placeholder percentages on there just to give the people new to the series some idea behind it.

 

[Nihility]

Anyone notice that Fox isn't holding his blaster anymore in the screenshot? Or is that just me

 

[SiD]

Wavedashing doesn't need to return, that's stupid. It was a mistake in the first place that allows you to do things you shouldn't be able to. Not that I hate it or anything, I have no complaints about it in Melee, but that's like people who won't play Halo 2 because they don't have their precious pistol. Brawl is a new game, deal with it.

 

[Johnknight1]

Wavedashing doesn't need to return, that's stupid. It was a mistake in the first place that allows you to do things you shouldn't be able to. Not that I hate it or anything, I have no complaints about it in Melee, but that's like people who won't play Halo 2 because they don't have their precious pistol. Brawl is a new game, deal with it.

Say that to the pros, it is a pillar (not the pillar) of their gameplay, and it isn't going anywhere, so you deal with it. Plus considering it was know before Melee's release very well to the SSBM developers, it isn't a "bug" or a "glitch", so get over it.

@ Black/Light
Ya I read that, but it doesn't confirm which songs. I'm hoping for my fav classic songs and courses. Thanks for confirming this=ty!

Seriously I want a past song remix from most of the follwing: Link's Awakening, SMB3 finally! (we got 2 SMB courses, a SMB2 course, 3 SM64 courses, and a SMW course, and now we got a SMW2 course, where the hell if my fav Mario game's course=? ), DKC 1-3, MG, MGS 2-4, Pikmin, A Link to the Past (best 2D zelda ever=don't argue about this! ), and of course...MEGAMANNN (the original only)!

@ hellsoldierx15
Unless Sakurai and Nintendo are stupid (which Nintend and Sakurai are total geniuses!), WD just plain and simple isn't going anaywhere. All the n00bs who don't have skill (wat skill=?) can deal, and all the good players who don't use it will do fine like they were in Melee and SSB64. Everyone is happy, other than the n00bs who go on and say "zomg, stop hakcng, ur cheatin', noone can beat me at smahs", in those exact words, with that exact grammar!

 

[SiD]

You say that like it's a fact, but you don't know it's going to return. I don't see how a pikachu air dodging means it will come back, it just means air dodging will.

 

[Chi's Finest]

Disagreed. Link may indeed be heavier, but he wouldn't be... This much heavier, right?

I think that they increased the damage potential for all of the characters, if anything.

Yea, that was a bad theory to suggst that link could take Marios UTilt at 102 and only go a few feet.

 

[Johnknight1]

You say that like it's a fact, but you don't know it's going to return. I don't see how a pikachu air dodging means it will come back, it just means air dodging will.

Well Sakurai doens't want to screw the competitive smashers and us smash addicts over by getting rid of it. I give WD a 98% chance of returning, plus that move Fox did in the 2nd trailer+Pickachu doing that air dodge=WD is almost guarenteed. Nintendo could be hinting to us it's returning, but there are no guarentees unless brawl is for n00bs only. Nintendo is trustworthy, and isn't going to forget about us who actually play the game over 100 hours, as well as the n00bs who stop playing after 10. We all win with WD....

Side Note: I mayb have come off a little harsh last post=my bad.

@ Chi's Fimest
Bad for Mario users, good for us Link users! Don't worry, it probobaly isn't actual gameplay footage, and even if it is, it's probably because Mario's uptilt might racks damage vs. having tons of impact.

 

[Bowserlick]

An air dodge does not mean there is going to be wavedashing. An airdodging person might simply roll when they hit the ground (a roll that is slower and more predictable then actual wavedashing).

Why do I not think there will be wavedashing?

Because it is fundamentally better then rolling. Yes, it rewards a higher skill level and yes rolling would still be an unexpected move, but frankly speaking a wavedash is a mre versatile and faster roll.

From the videos it seems that there will be three new forms of evasion. Faster rolling, rolling off platforms, and crawling.

Sakurai did say he wanted to "simplify" the game. So I think he is breaking up wavedashing into easier to execute evasive moves.

 

[Somasu]

I've just seen something that leads me to believe something else..

Look back at the Nintendo World trailer. That first little clip that shows Mario, Pikachu, Kirby, and Link fighting each other. Look at Mario doing his Fair to Pikachu, and see where she goes. Pikachu doesn't fly straight down (or up, but she's in mid-air when she's hit), instead she flies off in about a 45 degree angle. It's pretty much the exact same looking knockback that Dr. Mario's Fair had.

Could this lead us to believe that Doc really is gone? And that Mario will just have a mix of both his and Doc's Melee atributes? Maybe.

 

[Johnknight1]

^^^^ And Mario's spin attack looks more like Doc in my eyes. We all pretty much know Doc has only a small chance to return, unless Sakurai announces his return or something. Expect Mario to have the best of Doc and Mario from Melee+the best of Mario in SSB64 in Brawl.

 

[Samochan]

Is it just me or does that look like Fox is using fair? It also looks like it's gonna be one of the broken moves, with him sticking his leg out like that and it seems to also have the range of C.Falcon's nair at least. Though it could be his nair too, effectively doubling it's range and brokeness at the same time then. >_>;

 

[Mic_128]

The thing you need for WDing is the air dodge.

No, it's the movement along the ground. With air dodging, it could just mean that there's triangle-jumping. Or the air dodge could be stationary. We cna't tell til we see it in motion.

 

[Zgetto]

Is it just me or does that look like Fox is using fair? It also looks like it's gonna be one of the broken moves, with him sticking his leg out like that and it seems to also have the range of C.Falcon's nair at least. Though it could be his nair too, effectively doubling it's range and brokeness at the same time then. >_>;

i think its pretty clear thats his Bair^^ , he facing his back towards the others and it does looks a lot like the bair in ssbm

 

[Angrylobster]

i think its pretty clear thats his Bair^^ , he facing his back towards the others and it does looks a lot like the bair in ssbm

fox looks like he could be a very different character this time around. Honestly its hard to say what aerial that is, although samus' bair does look very similar to it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I hope Fox'll play different this time too. More like his SSB64 self atleast. If this is his Fair however, it'll be the second time it got changed over the years. o.o

 

[pikachun00b7]

About Fox's new areal. Maybe it is a Fair/Nair I don't know. Yet it does look like it has some more range so maybe it will own. Not as much as Pika though.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Smash just wouldn't feel the same if Fox wasn't broken.

>_>

*Gives Fox a hug*

 

[Waenke]

I noticed the one where Link went only that high with that much damage. That doesn't make sense for that to be the peak of his height though because he has over double the damage and is hardly 2 times higher than in the first picture. Now that i think about this it makes me feel better, I was thinking that maybe they were toning down the default for how hard it is to knock you out, which would have greatly disappointed me.

 

[pikachun00b7]

Smash just wouldn't feel the same if Fox wasn't broken.

>_>

*Gives Fox a hug*

They need to change the tiers.

I noticed the one where Link went only that high with that much damage. That doesn't make sense for that to be the peak of his height though because he has over double the damage and is hardly 2 times higher than in the first picture. Now that i think about this it makes me feel better, I was thinking that maybe they were toning down the default for how hard it is to knock you out, which would have greatly disappointed me.

Look at the smoke trail. behind mario so the Knockback would be from above Mario's hand.

 

[WR3K]

i hope the new tiers are hardly differing from each other and completly scrambled compared to melee's

i want to see bowsers, luigis, foxes, links, captain falcons, and pikachus ALL in the same tournamant

 

[pikachun00b7]

i hope the new tiers are hardly differing from each other and completly scrambled compared to melee's

i want to see bowsers, luigis, foxes, links, captain falcons, and pikachus ALL in the same tournamant

No, when I mean new tiers I mean Pika being broken and everyone else to be sucky.

 

[swordgard]

Hm...i think i saw something most people overlooked....
Go look at zsamus on the Nintendo world trailer at 2:06 or so. She stops the jumping animation and falls down really fast. Either it is her down b or theres a new way to fast fall really fast at the cost of movement possibility. If so, this could bring the game to a whole new level!

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Well I think he's airdodging too... the utilt thing seems normal to me I dont think hes at the apex but reaching it, my guess would be he would fly a little bit higher. But you might we right about the weight / power thing.

Im just hoping with all my heart for the return of the wavedash and pre existing techs, obviously shffling and whatnot will still play a part but wavedashing.. I want it so badly >.< As for the rest of the game I don't care what they give me I trust theyll do a great job!!!

Smash just wouldn't feel the same if Fox wasn't broken.

>_>

*Gives Fox a hug*

let us start the give fox a hug club. *hugs fox, arm becomes broken*

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yay,a new member.May Fox be broken forever!!

^^

 

[NES n00b]

Smash just wouldn't feel the same if Fox wasn't broken.

>_>

*Gives Fox a hug*

You are a fox player huh.

Well smash wouldn't feel the same if Mario or Link are top tier. Both better stay middle, just that middle and low tiers are closer to the top tiers.

Edit: Dylan, you are not even a Fox player, WTF?? Too much emotions and stuff for me. (I am a fox fan in hiding can I join the club )

 

[Solid_Sneak]

The pic with link smashing Mario off the edge and to the right is definately his 2nd forward smash. His shield is on his back. He doesn't remove his shield when doing his dash attack, or up tilt attacks. I destinctly remember that pose from melee, and since Brawl uses the same engine as Melee, and Link has many of the same moves from Melee, it's safe to say it's the same pose as his forward smash from Melee.

The screen where Mario is diong his up tilt on link and link is going higher with more damage proves nothing about Links weight. You can take the screen while Link is in mid flight at whatever point, meaning he could still have a way to go before he reaches his apex in both shots. It's a screen just to show that characters fly farther with more damage. Besides once characters reach their apex, they enter a 'sprawling' animation (able to recover/jump), not the 'flying' animation that Link is doing in that screen (unable to do anything).

Also, wavedashing is without a doubt, in. In Smash Bros., the physics of the game has a very fluid tone. When you jump, your momentum carries you, when you touch the ground, the momentum makes you slide ever so slightly. When you fall on the ground, your momentum keeps you going for a bit, or makes you stay put depending on how you fell. If you air dodge, and touch the ground, you slide slightly as well, if you are moving in a certain direction. This is the core of wavedashing. You airdodge, into the ground, and your momentum carries you in a direction. If they remove wave dashing, they must remove the momentum effect when you dodge into the ground, detracting from the core feel of the game physics. Dodging into the ground is supposed to make you slide. It's part of the game physics. It is honestly just that simple. Aslo, removing the WD removes competetive Smashing.

IMO, wavedashing provides an edge for skilled players. It seperates n00bs, from people who are really looking to improve their game. It also does not provide that much of an advantage, and slower characters do not use it at all.

 

[Zauron]

Momentum doesn't always carry over for every action. For example, when you are doing a tech or a side roll, your momentum doesn't affect how far you tech or roll. Its a fixed amount (although if you have a ton of momentum, sometimes there's still some left after you tech that suddenly takes effect, which looks very weird and I would consider to be a oversight of the programmers - you shouldn't stop completely in place for several seconds and then suddenly start sliding away just because you were sliding fast before you stopped. Plus this doesn't happen for rolling, so its clear that they could have prevented it but just forgot to for teching.).

So, they could make it so dodging into a ground causes you to go into a special tech or a side roll instead of instantly going into the idle state with momentum carried over. That would look more natural anyway (in terms of animation, some air dodge animations don't really make sense that they'd go instantly to an idle animation when they land. Look at what they did with air attacks - when you land, there is often a transition animation before they return to idle. This animation is what you speed up with L-cancelling. It would be completely within the spirit of the game to have a special tech landing animation for air-dodging into the ground just like they do with landing during an air attack).

Also, at the very least, if they wanted to they could get rid of Wavedashing and leave only Wavelanding in, by making it so you can't air-dodge until you have actually moved a minimum distance upwards or are falling downwards - therefore the best you could do is a triangle jump or a waveland, but wavedashing wouldn't work because it depends on doing an air-dodge while you are still pretty much on the ground.

I still say that wavedashing may be left alone but that it just won't matter as much. If you really pay attention to the design philosophy behind Smash Bros, a situation like this has an obvious solution - give characters a move that is as or more effective as Wavedashing that can be performed without a button sequence, but rather a single direction and button like every other move.

Then you keep all the meta game and mind game benefits of Wavedashing and maintain what advanced players claim is the reason they want it in (few advanced players will admit they want to keep wavedashing because its difficult to perform the move at all, they generally stick to saying its because of the mind game benefits it adds). You still would need to know when to use it and how to make the most out of it, but remove the barrier to being able to perform the move at all. Judging from what we've seen in the second trailer, this is exactly what Sakurai is doing to address this debate.

 

[Mud Buddha]

The first and perhaps the most important. Look at Pika. Looks like air dodging right? If there is an air-dodge there will certainly be wavedashing.

Proves nothing. They could easily program a way to stop motion once you hit the ground.

Wouldn't link fly much higher at 102%? You may say "he isn't finished flying yet." Wrong since the screenshot was to insinuate that knockback is greatest at higher percentage therefore link must be at the pivot of his flight . I conclude that either Link is even more heavy or Mario's Utilt has low knockback.

There's nothing in those screenshots that even slightly implies that Link is at the pinnacle of his motion. Considering you can still see the DUST TRAILS AT GROUND HEIGHT, it leans more towards it being mid flight.

(Pinnacle is the word you meant. Not pivot)

Link using Ftilt/Fsmash/dash attack on Mario. Since link is close to the edge he must have been edge guarding. So this must be his Fsmash(even though it looks like a Dash attack). If I knew the percentage that mario has died I might have approximated the lag in the Fsmash.

Presumptious hog wash.

 

[WR3K]

You are a fox player huh.

Well smash wuoldn't feel the same if Mario or Link are top tier. Both better stay middle, just that high tiers are closer to the top tiers.

Edit: Dylan, you are not even a Fox player, WTF?? Too much emotions and stuff for me. (I am a fox fan in hiding can I join the club )

silghtly closed minded there, as you dont want the tournemant formula to be changed


i think the tiers should be almost indistinguishable from one another (totally indisinguishable is impossible) and the tiers that ARE mid, top, and bottum, are all scrambled with weights and characters



i dream of a tournament with link, luigi, donkey kong, pikachu, fox, and metaknight, ALL competing with equal opportunity to win

 

[Solid_Sneak]

(sorry my quote function does not work at school, and i forgot the html code)

ZAURON

"So, they could make it so dodging into a ground causes you to go into a special tech or a side roll instead of instantly going into the idle state with momentum carried over"


That's actually a very good point. though I still say wavedashing is in because of the competetive scene. Keep in mind though, that an animation, will not likely carry over the proper physics from your fall/momentum, unless maticulous prgramming methods were implemented.

 

[NES n00b]

silghtly closed minded there, as you dont want the tournemant formula to be changed


i think the tiers should be almost indistinguishable from one another (totally indisinguishable is impossible) and the tiers that ARE mid, top, and bottum, are all scrambled with weights and characters



i dream of a tournament with link, luigi, donkey kong, pikachu, fox, and metaknight, ALL competing with equal opportunity to win

I was really kidding. >.>

I hope they balanced the game as much as they can so I can see different characters with different metagames making it to tournament play (and stand a chance of course). I really can't imagine those characters going any higher on the tier list though because of the design of the 2 characters (the developers had implemented in the last two games I do not see why they would change).

 

[WR3K]

idk, the slightest factors can change gameplay


sry for the misunderstanding, i think because of the team that is developing the game, who has ***** melee brutally, will do a great balancing job

 

[pikachun00b7]

Yay,a new member.May Fox be broken forever!!

^^

I hate you.
Fox had his run but this time it is Pika(again) who will utterly ****.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Your observations aren't bad... 'cept the first one. Air dash doesn't imply wavedashing, since they can easily program in a different action. Rather than sliding across the ground, you could roll, tech, or stop moving entirely.

 

[pikachun00b7]

Your observations aren't bad... 'cept the first one. Air dash doesn't imply wavedashing, since they can easily program in a different action. Rather than sliding across the ground, you could roll, tech, or stop moving entirely.

The reason air dodging proves the WD is not because it causes it. You see there are "smaller" side techniques that do not have to be in SSBB like dodge Air dodge and wave land special if one of them appear then that entire set will follow suite.

EDIT: Why talk about link's heaviness when this thread was made to point out Pika's sexynes/WD.

 

[CHUK]

I think that is the second part of Link's forward smash.

 

[awesome]

While we're on the subjuct of overlooked screenshots, would anyone care to look at this one for me?

That doesn't look like any stage that's been revealed yet. Nor does that purple thing. Or the hook.

 

[tstumo]

it's metaknight's stage.

 

[awesome]

Hm, you're probably right. It's just that the texture behind him doesn't look like the main platform.