pikachun00b7
Smash Lord
Not just that. Did you see his Dair in the trailer? EVEN more lag. SSBB link is about a 1/3x more heavier then SSBM link.
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Overlooking important screenshots.
- Thread starter pikachun00b7
- Start date
Keta
Smash Journeyman
I kept thinking people were somewhat wrong about this.. I finally just tried it. I set dmg to Link at 96% utilt him. His dmg moved to 103% and looked like it was the exact same height as the screen... Actually, the screen looks like he might go a bit higher.
pikachun00b7
Smash Lord
No I tried it too. many times. In SSBM he moves around 3x the height of mario. In SSBB he moved up 3x. PLUS link was kinda scrunched up with the stun in SSBM.
pikachun00b7
Smash Lord
In his pocket?
What I find interesting in this picture is that fox doesn't seem to have his gun out, but from the videos that we have seen Fox has his gun out at all times. Is there a way to put fox's gun away?
Keta
Smash Journeyman
Perhaps, it was just in the trailer for looks. I think it's kind of stupid to have it out at all times, anyway.
EDIT: There's a screenshot on Wikipedia with Fox falling towards Pit with his gun in his hand. Who knows... I think they took it off, though. They probably realized it's pointless for him to have it out at all times.
EDIT: There's a screenshot on Wikipedia with Fox falling towards Pit with his gun in his hand. Who knows... I think they took it off, though. They probably realized it's pointless for him to have it out at all times.
Zauron
Smash Journeyman
Okay I'm getting sick of this theory about why Wavedashing can't be removed.
I am a game programmer, and trust me on this - it would be EXTREMELY easy to remove Wavedashing while leaving air dodging in the game and not having characters fall through the ground. There's a dozen different ways you could do it, many of which would require less than 3 lines of code. Thinking that air dodges is in any way proof that Wavedashing is going to be left alone is just silly.
Now, lets consider some facts:
- Many advanced techniques are clearly intended - L-cancelling, fast-falling, proper DI, etc. had to have been coded intentionally. No one can sanely deny this.
- Other advanced techniques are clearly bugs, like Samus's Super Wavedash. These will be removed. Some new ones may come to light later, as bugs are inevitably found and exploited.
- Wavedashing is a special case - its not really a bug, its a side effect of game mechanics. It could be removed easily, but was not for Melee. The devs knew about it before Melee was released and decided it was fine to leave it in. However, they may not have realized how people would end up using it and how heavily used it would be.
- All other advanced techniques besides Wavedashing (and those based on bugs) can be difficult to learn and perform the timing for, and properly use in combat, HOWEVER, they are different than Wavedashing in that they all involve very simple inputs. Tap L/R just before landing. Press Down after the height of your jump. Tap Jump lightly to short hop. Wavedashing, however, requires a sequence of pressing Jump, holding the correct angle, and pressing L/R at the exact right time. Doing this once isn't too hard after a bit, but doing it consistantly takes a lot of practice compared to other techniques to even perform at all, let alone use it in your metagame.
- Smash Bros differientiates itself from other fighting games by having simple and easy-to-learn controls yet still requiring great skill to master timing, positioning, which move to use, and so on. Every move in Smash Bros can be performed by a single direction on the stick (or none) and a single button (exception being Grab, but you can use Z as a shortcut to the L/R+A method). Many moves even have multiple ways to perform them, but none are complicated button SEQUENCES like they are in other fighting games. They are just a single button press.
- Taking the above 2 points, Wavedashing's input requirements does not fit well with Smash Bros. core design. It is too complicated even for an advanced technique to input regularly (personally, I can Wavesdash just fine, my main is Luigi after all, but I know many people have trouble with it and it can take a long time to do it consistantly).
However, Wavedashing also adds a lot to the game, and I think Sakurai realizes this.
I believe that the solution is to ignore Wavedashing - it may be removed, but it doesn't have to be. Instead, to fit better with the spirit of the Smash Bros controls, I believe Sakurai's plan is to REPLACE Wavedashing with a move that serves mostly the same function, but is much easier to do. Wavedashing for everyone. Then like every other move, it will be all about when and how you use it (just like it is for any advanced player) but not so much whether or not you can even do the move at all.
There is evidence to support this in the most recent trailer - several characters move in a manner similar to Wavedashing, but appear to be doing a very quick roll/dodge. The roll is faster than rolling has traditionally been, yet is clearly NOT a Wavedash because careful analysis shows the jump start animation never plays and other signs of Wavedashing are not there. Also, the characters seem to be able to attack out of this roll very quickly, and it even appears the length of it may be adjusted somehow.
My theory is that side rolling will be upgraded to be a very fast side dodge, with little punishing lag, and be INTERRUPTABLE (with an attack or another dodge). This would make it a move that is as effective as Wavedashing (moreso even, because of the invincibility frames before you interrupt it or let it end) yet is easily performed by any player. Now it will be a matter of learning when to use it, just like any other move, and not as much a barrier to being performed accurately at all. Much better suited to the Smash Bros. mentality. And with this move, the original Wavedash doesn't matter if its left in or not - in most cases it won't be worth the effort to do it when a generally better option is available.
I am a game programmer, and trust me on this - it would be EXTREMELY easy to remove Wavedashing while leaving air dodging in the game and not having characters fall through the ground. There's a dozen different ways you could do it, many of which would require less than 3 lines of code. Thinking that air dodges is in any way proof that Wavedashing is going to be left alone is just silly.
Now, lets consider some facts:
- Many advanced techniques are clearly intended - L-cancelling, fast-falling, proper DI, etc. had to have been coded intentionally. No one can sanely deny this.
- Other advanced techniques are clearly bugs, like Samus's Super Wavedash. These will be removed. Some new ones may come to light later, as bugs are inevitably found and exploited.
- Wavedashing is a special case - its not really a bug, its a side effect of game mechanics. It could be removed easily, but was not for Melee. The devs knew about it before Melee was released and decided it was fine to leave it in. However, they may not have realized how people would end up using it and how heavily used it would be.
- All other advanced techniques besides Wavedashing (and those based on bugs) can be difficult to learn and perform the timing for, and properly use in combat, HOWEVER, they are different than Wavedashing in that they all involve very simple inputs. Tap L/R just before landing. Press Down after the height of your jump. Tap Jump lightly to short hop. Wavedashing, however, requires a sequence of pressing Jump, holding the correct angle, and pressing L/R at the exact right time. Doing this once isn't too hard after a bit, but doing it consistantly takes a lot of practice compared to other techniques to even perform at all, let alone use it in your metagame.
- Smash Bros differientiates itself from other fighting games by having simple and easy-to-learn controls yet still requiring great skill to master timing, positioning, which move to use, and so on. Every move in Smash Bros can be performed by a single direction on the stick (or none) and a single button (exception being Grab, but you can use Z as a shortcut to the L/R+A method). Many moves even have multiple ways to perform them, but none are complicated button SEQUENCES like they are in other fighting games. They are just a single button press.
- Taking the above 2 points, Wavedashing's input requirements does not fit well with Smash Bros. core design. It is too complicated even for an advanced technique to input regularly (personally, I can Wavesdash just fine, my main is Luigi after all, but I know many people have trouble with it and it can take a long time to do it consistantly).
However, Wavedashing also adds a lot to the game, and I think Sakurai realizes this.
I believe that the solution is to ignore Wavedashing - it may be removed, but it doesn't have to be. Instead, to fit better with the spirit of the Smash Bros controls, I believe Sakurai's plan is to REPLACE Wavedashing with a move that serves mostly the same function, but is much easier to do. Wavedashing for everyone. Then like every other move, it will be all about when and how you use it (just like it is for any advanced player) but not so much whether or not you can even do the move at all.
There is evidence to support this in the most recent trailer - several characters move in a manner similar to Wavedashing, but appear to be doing a very quick roll/dodge. The roll is faster than rolling has traditionally been, yet is clearly NOT a Wavedash because careful analysis shows the jump start animation never plays and other signs of Wavedashing are not there. Also, the characters seem to be able to attack out of this roll very quickly, and it even appears the length of it may be adjusted somehow.
My theory is that side rolling will be upgraded to be a very fast side dodge, with little punishing lag, and be INTERRUPTABLE (with an attack or another dodge). This would make it a move that is as effective as Wavedashing (moreso even, because of the invincibility frames before you interrupt it or let it end) yet is easily performed by any player. Now it will be a matter of learning when to use it, just like any other move, and not as much a barrier to being performed accurately at all. Much better suited to the Smash Bros. mentality. And with this move, the original Wavedash doesn't matter if its left in or not - in most cases it won't be worth the effort to do it when a generally better option is available.
pikachun00b7
Smash Lord
In his pocket?
What I find interesting in this picture is that fox doesn't seem to have his gun out, but from the videos that we have seen Fox has his gun out at all times. Is there a way to put fox's gun away?
Keta
Smash Journeyman
Ummm.... Why'd you repost the same thing? lol
Chidosengan
Smash Lord
Or in other words, the air-dodge could stay stationary, meaning any tilt in the joystick won't effect it, you'll just stay there in the air invincible for 1.5 seconds like it was originally intended to.
Therefore completely removing wavedash.
Therefore completely removing wavedash.
Keta
Smash Journeyman
You could still have movement in the airdodge... Like I said earlier, all they have to do it set it to stop horizontal movement upon landing. You can still do everything else. Except wavedash.
Zauron
Smash Journeyman
Exactly. Air dodging could function 100% like it does now, including movement. It would be simplicity itself to just stop movement when an air dodge happens to hit the ground, instead of the current method of sliding the character along the ground with a carryover velocity.
There's other ways too. For example, they could not allow you to air dodge until you've been in the jump state for a certain minimum time, so a wavedash would just become a triangle jump (though wave landing would still work with this change alone).
There's other ways too. For example, they could not allow you to air dodge until you've been in the jump state for a certain minimum time, so a wavedash would just become a triangle jump (though wave landing would still work with this change alone).
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
When you think about that,that is interesting.
What I find interesting in this picture is that fox doesn't seem to have his gun out, but from the videos that we have seen Fox has his gun out at all times. Is there a way to put fox's gun away?
I wonder...
Pye
Smash Journeyman
Sorry for quoting way back to this, but if that is in fact what NES n00b meant, then I apologize, lol. I knew there was something I was misunderstanding about his post.
By the way, I think that if Nintendo really wanted to remove wavedashing, they could do it with pretty simple tweaks to the physics engine without acualy affecting gameplay at all. What if, during an airdodge, they give all characters infinte traction? Then a wavedash wouldn't result in any movement. Solved.
On the other hand, I see no reason for them to remove wavedashing at all. It's not like it's a groundbreaking tactic. Just because someone uses it dosn't mean they'll win the game. In fact, far from it. It requires players to use it PROPERLY, just like everything else in this game. Smash attacks are powerful, but we all know that a player who does nothing but fsmash won't win against a player with half a brain.
This has been said over and over, and I emphasize it: Wavedashing adds more depth to the game. It gives you more options for approaching and to handle approach. It opens up combo and punishment possibilities. It gives you a way out of situations you wouldn't normally have a good way out of (I'm thinking of waveshielding here).
To me, removing wavedashing would be as silly as removing jumping, because both of them do nothing but limit what you can do. Diversity, guys! I don't think many people on these boards would disagree with me when I say I want wavedashing in Brawl.
And as for those screenshots, that move Fox is using looks like a bair to me. Though one thing caught my eye with these new shots...is it just me, or do these moves look like they have a lot more reach then they did in Melee? I mean, look at Mario's jab even, in the first screenshot (the damage system demonstrator). It didn't reach that far in Melee, did it? It could be an illusion due to how close to the characters the shot is taken, but...
Keta
Smash Journeyman
I did reach that far, it's just so quick that you don't really notice unless you pause it. As for Fox's bair, I think it's longer because of his new look.
NES n00b
Smash Master
Gah, Fox even more broken because of the longer reach. 
Anyways, why is he without his gun? I thought I knew everything about Fox before this. >____> Nnnooooooo!
Oh well, hopefully the next update can clear all this up. :D
Anyways, why is he without his gun? I thought I knew everything about Fox before this. >____> Nnnooooooo!
Oh well, hopefully the next update can clear all this up. :D
Flyingsheep
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- May 17, 2007
- Messages
- 14
I also noticed Fox's gun missing when I first saw that screenshot. It shouldn't be in his left hand either because in the second Brawl trailer he was carrying it in his right. I think the reason is because this probably isn't a real gameplay shot, but a render, since they all seem to be in carefully planned positions.
hellsoldierx15
Smash Journeyman
smart theory...
what i think about fox's gun is that when you see him jump up on the platform in the second trailer and do his taunt, thats probably not gameplay. it could be the same for the screenshot also. i aslo though if fox always has it gun out, then would he be able to fire his gun while he's running?
Keta
Smash Journeyman
Ooooohh, sounds interesting. Probably not, though.fire his gun while he's running?
Kel
Smash Master
Fox looks like he's nairing...and in the opposite direction. What I mean by this is that in Melee characters didn't simply mirror image themselves when they turned another way. For example, Link's sword is ALWAYS in his left hand. In Melee, fox attacks with his left foot first (regular footing in boarding terminology). Also, I believe they had mario as a righty in melee and always had his RIGHT hand being enlarged for attacks. In the screen shots they give us both characters are either just mirror images or using they opposite appendage.
Not that any of that matters. Just thought I'd point it out for reference
Not that any of that matters. Just thought I'd point it out for reference
NES n00b
Smash Master
Sounds more broken, too. He's all ready a good laser spammer (actually why I secretly like fox......do not tell anybody
). Maybe the developers decided to take the gun out while in development??? Keta
Smash Journeyman
I was going to say broken, but I left it out. If he had that ability, all other characters would have to have some sort of damaging while running ability. If not, Fox would be so different. I'm assuming he'll be very different as it is.
I didn't think it was pointless. I thought Fox would be able to do some cool pistol whips with his gun out all the time.
Keta
Smash Journeyman
Mario could be doing his 2nd jab, which would hit with his other hand. The rest, who knows. =\Fox looks like he's nairing...and in the opposite direction. What I mean by this is that in Melee characters didn't simply mirror image themselves when they turned another way. For example, Link's sword is ALWAYS in his left hand. In Melee, fox attacks with his left foot first (regular footing in boarding terminology). Also, I believe they had mario as a righty in melee and always had his RIGHT hand being enlarged for attacks. In the screen shots they give us both characters are either just mirror images or using they opposite appendage.
Not that any of that matters. Just thought I'd point it out for reference
That's true. Would be kinda cool. =p
Slater88
Smash Cadet
Some of the screenshots don't have shadows in them.
Keta
Smash Journeyman
Weeeeiiiiirrdddd..... Interesting....
hellsoldierx15
Smash Journeyman
most of those are just renders and aren't actual gameplay.
Slater88
Smash Cadet
You are probably right, but anyways, is Link's shield on his back in the screenshot of battlefield during the night and with the death explosion?
pikachun00b7
Smash Lord
That was the night pics. There are no shadows at night. in the first pic there was shadows but the **** damage thing blocked it.
NES n00b
Smash Master
These post count is going to go over 9000. 
Seriously, the having no shadows thing is weird. Did the delevopers not work out the generic or dynamic shadows? The updates this week better give us more important info or we will start to notice that there is a weird etching near the tree on the battlefield stage or something. >.>
Edit: Questions answered, reasonably.
Lol from the below post
Seriously, the having no shadows thing is weird. Did the delevopers not work out the generic or dynamic shadows? The updates this week better give us more important info or we will start to notice that there is a weird etching near the tree on the battlefield stage or something. >.>
Edit: Questions answered, reasonably.
Lol from the below post
Keta
Smash Journeyman
Whoa, I didn't notice that. Crazinneessss!! I think it says something.
Taking a longer look at that Mario jabbing Link pic. I noticed both their footing. It seems like such a long range jab..
Erk Aduro
Smash Apprentice
Yeah it is. Just like in his Melee forward smash. Though I think his sword is a little higher.
Flyingsheep
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- May 17, 2007
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Yeah, I noticed the missing shadows thing in the second trailer. Even in parts of the trailer where it's obviously gameplay, you don't see shadows. But in other levels you do. Pretty interesting.
MarsBitrona
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 7, 2007
- Messages
- 161
Those screenshots were put up to explain how the game worked. Seeing as how the game is in development and Sakurai in charge, I'm sure he would have no problem playing with the game's physics a little bit to make a screenshot suited to explain his point. Drawing conclusions of major gameplay changes based on a single screenshot of an unfinished game wouldn't be advisable.
Johnknight1
Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
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Ya, but it's either the night time screens, or when the sun is directily above the characters, or it is just rendered pics. Or maybe it's something to do with BF, or maybe it's only BF, because I saw the character's shadows on other courses in the 2 trailers.
Intresting find, yae wavedashing is semi-confirmed, now I'm happy!!!
Hopefully this is a sign that the old advanced techniques will return, as good or better than they were in Melee. So that is definitely good news, well for most of us anyways! Also look at the first pic again, and look at pickachu's face, it sorta looks like Pichu's face in Melee, because Pichu sorta tilted it's head like that. I'm not 100% sure about this, but it seems Pickachu might look a bit like Pichu, since Pichu's removal is very possible, and very likely. Thought that was intresting, though I could be wrong.
-Intresting thread, and there are definitely some great ideas on here!
Keta
Smash Journeyman
I don't think having air-dodge, in any way, confirms wavedashing any bit. Air-dodging is an important element of aerial combat, Brawl couldn't go without it.. I'd say the Fox sliding backwards in the world trailer might mean something, though. It all depends on Sakurai and the others. They might feel it should be removed, and could easily do so without effecting the game any other aspect of the game.
Johnknight1
Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
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Well that move Fox did, added to this Pickachu air dodge almost confirms WD will return. Besides, does Sakurai have any justification to remove it other than n00bs hate it=? Also if he removes it you'll see a lot of SSB players stick with Melee, because it is a pillar (mot the pillar) in the series because of how useful it is in Melee.
If Sakurai removes WD, it proves that he cares a lot more about the n00bs who play SSB for 100 hours at most vs. us dedicated smashers and the competitive smash community. Sakurai is simply going to keep it, because he wants the balance between n00b fun, and dedicated and competitve players. So overall I don't expect WD to be removed, but it might be easier in Brawl (even if it's easy as heck). 
If Sakurai removes WD, it proves that he cares a lot more about the n00bs who play SSB for 100 hours at most vs. us dedicated smashers and the competitive smash community. Sakurai is simply going to keep it, because he wants the balance between n00b fun, and dedicated and competitve players. So overall I don't expect WD to be removed, but it might be easier in Brawl (even if it's easy as heck).
Keta
Smash Journeyman
I expect it to stay... but perhaps wavedashing isn't in their "vision" of smash. That's the only reason I see it being removed. Though, I'm sure they realize how big a part wavedashing plays in every match.
hellsoldierx15
Smash Journeyman
my thoughts exactly. why lose fans when you can gain fans?Well that move Fox did, added to this Pickachu air dodge almost confirms WD will return. Besides, does Sakurai have any justification to remove it other than n00bs hate it=? Also if he removes it you'll see a lot of SSB players stick with Melee, because it is a pillar (mot the pillar) in the series because of how useful it is in Melee.
If Sakurai removes WD, it proves that he cares a lot more about the n00bs who play SSB for 100 hours at most vs. us dedicated smashers and the competitive smash community. Sakurai is simply going to keep it, because he wants the balance between n00b fun, and dedicated and competitve players. So overall I don't expect WD to be removed, but it might be easier in Brawl (even if it's easy as heck).
Black/Light
Smash Master
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