Out of order, new matchup thread coming soon!

[Goldenadept]

we're heavy and she's pretty dang light, plus she can have some killing issues so that's our advantage, dsmash is a nightmare for zamus. Also its possible to edge hog her fairly easy depending on the trajectory she goes at and how far, her safety jump and long tether aren't much help against a edge hogger, but she'll take you with her if you aren't careful

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I find this matchup to be annoying.

 

[castorpollux]

I've played dazwas and snakee's zss in friendlies. I've beaten snakeee's zss the one game we played and I'm pretty even with dazwas

 

[Ishiey]

Anything about the matchups? I bet you have a decent handle on how to use the armor pieces, sharing is caring

 

[castorpollux]

Anything about the matchups? I bet you have a decent handle on how to use the armor pieces, sharing is caring

Pretend they are bananas O_O

 

[Goldenadept]

when approaching you can z drop pieces of armor and knock her into it with a bair or a throw etc, thats zamus's main game with them so i just use them that way too.
how you do mean when you say treat them like banana's? fair/dash attack to pick them up and just keep them away while attacking her mercilessly

 

[rvkevin]

how you do mean when you say treat them like banana's? fair/dash attack to pick them up and just keep them away while attacking her mercilessly

Never dash attack to pick up a banana unless your opponent is serious preoccupied...you're just going to get punished and half the time drop the item in the process. It might be useful to know if ZSS can punish a grounded shine when she throws items forwards.

 

[Goldenadept]

yeah i meant dash attack if they're across the stage, not right in front of you, good point turtle. getting punished is never fun. Won't her suit pieces bounce back at her if you have a grounded shine out when she throws it?

 

[tekkie]

yeah i meant dash attack if they're across the stage, not right in front of you, good point turtle. getting punished is never fun. Won't her suit pieces bounce back at her if you have a grounded shine out when she throws it?

yeah and they screw her up, thats why glide toss down > jab or grab, depending on what they think youre gonna do.

 

[rvkevin]

Won't her suit pieces bounce back at her if you have a grounded shine out when she throws it?

Proof of concept @2:02 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzctuPygaD4

Not sure if will work for ZSS though.

 

[Goldenadept]

hmm, well they're considered projectiles so i know the reflector will hit them back, I've done it before, but if the ZSS is close enough she can always just grab you or something. or can she? the reflector will knock the pieces back really fast so she'll have to get hit or defend which'll give you plenty of time to stop the shine and run away

 

[rvkevin]

The question is can she throw an armor piece forward and catch it with Dash Attack as she simultaneously catches the item and hits Wolf while Wolf is still in shine...

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

ZSS also has a up b lock on platforms till like 70% or so.........

 

[KRDsonic]

We can reflect the armor, but it doesn't help all that much from my experiences (Though I've only played this matchup a few times). the ones I've played only throw the armor if they're 100% sure that I won't/can't use my reflector at the time.

 

[SelfPossessed]

I usually don't like to talk about matchup stuff as I lack experience...but seeing as how more than one post is talking about Shining suit pieces...and there's no ZSS main here to contradict...

Do NOT use grounded Shine against suit pieces. Seriously. You're just asking for a glide toss up -> Dsmash chain of death. I mean, if shining Diddy's bananas causes Diddy to glide toss down -> whatever, why would doing it to ZSS, whose glide toss has far more range and has a massive Dsmash chain, be any better?

Note that if you're trying to Shine on reaction, you'll probably get the invincibility frames of Shine instead of the reflecting frames and you should probably go for shield instead. If you try to hold it earlier for the reflect, eat Dsmash.

 

[KRDsonic]

Guess I was right then. The ability to shine suit pieces back is useless against good ZSS players. I forgot about the Dsmash chain though. Does that happen often in this matchup? The few ZSS's I've played don't usually try to go for the Dsmash that often at lower percents.

 

[Goldenadept]

i know from experience that the dsmash chain hurts pretty bad but the one i was playing in a tourny stopped it at about 80% to go for a bair kill (what?!) i just di'd it though and she didn't get close to killing me, i don't know if there's any way of getting out of it or what % it stops being effective.
i think its probably best to try and power shield the pieces and fair grab them to Z drops, try and bair her into them.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Did I ever go ask the ZSS boards? Think I haven't yet.

 

[solecalibur]

Dont play wolfs often but dont mess with the armor game unless their is only one piece left because we know how to get that piece back just like diddy's get their bananas back (watch a match and notice how diddys get 50%+ of their bananas back if you throw it back at them)

Watch out for our aireals, they are much quicker then yours, im not sure about your bair but im pretty sure our bair out ranges it and our uair trades hits on occasion

Also DONT start the match while holding down b

that is all

 

[tedeth]

I've played this MU a fair bit. Grounded shine doesn't really work well at all. Don't do it unless you're sure they're going to throw forward. Also jumping up and shining though a bouncing armor piece is good because it does indeed make it yours. I like to concentrate on getting rid of the armor pieces rather than trying to use them. They can **** pretty hard.

@ solecalibur: Our bair is better. Try to bair wolf, please try to bair wolf. Try it again and again. Please do. Our bair/fair will ourspace your bair everytime. Trust me.

Speaking of which, we can apply ALOT of pressure with SH FF bair while moving in and out. ZSS has good range but nothing legitimately fast enough to punish it. Grab will get baired, side b will get baired. And yes, bair will get baired.

However, if you do space your bair incorrectly then yeah you'll get hit and ZSS' bair will KO really well when fresh so don't get complacent if she takes to the air. Her other good kill option is forward b of course. It's got amazing range but it's quite slow. As long as you're aware of it you shouldn't have too much trouble though. Also someone correct me if I'm wrong but I remember hearing that ZSS' forward b doesn't stale.

 

[solecalibur]

Also someone correct me if I'm wrong but I remember hearing that ZSS' forward b doesn't stale.

Oh it does Im living proof of that

 

[Seagull Joe]

Dont play wolfs often but dont mess with the armor game unless their is only one piece left because we know how to get that piece back just like diddy's get their bananas back (watch a match and notice how diddys get 50%+ of their bananas back if you throw it back at them)

Watch out for our aerials, they are much quicker then yours, im not sure about your bair but im pretty sure our bair out ranges it and our uair trades hits on occasion

Also DONT start the match while holding down b

that is all

Our bair is faster, comes out quicker, and more range. It is what wrecks Zss largely. Your Uair combos Wolf pretty well when you can land it. It can usually combo about 2-3 times at low percentages. I find reflecting Zss parts in singles matches to be really really easy, but maybe that's just me. I usually reflect them or just jump to avoid them and get rid of them all together. Wolf can air release Zss into side b sweet spotted(Fun fact I tested). Zss dies pretty early and it takes her awhile to kill. She doesn't exactly gimp either. When in the air watch out for Zss Uair and that's pretty much her best kill move. Bair she usually only gets through Dsmash. Side b she needs to either follow you over stage horizontally or mind game you. She has a Dsmash lock she can setup, but it's rather easy to SDI.

Matchup synopsis: 55-45 Wolf's favor.

 

[KillerJawz]

Also someone correct me if I'm wrong but I remember hearing that ZSS' forward b doesn't stale.

Your thinking of neutral air. It doesnt stale, but forward B does.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

im not sure about your bair but im pretty sure our bair out ranges it

lol NO

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wolf's bair is better. Wolf is still a sitting duck to ZSS in the air because he falls quickly and his airdodges are easily frametrapped. Uair all day on wolf. Bair vs. bair shouldn't even happen that often.

Side-b stales, nair does not stale.

I don't have a ton of experience here but the few times I've played decent wolf players, it has been frustrating and feels like 6/4 wolf. With that said don't let them land dsmash. It is a LOT EASIER to land dsmash on wolf than it is on most characters because his primary spacing attack is an aerial that can be dsmashed on landing (frame trapped, I mean). Lasers are annoying, as they usually are for ZSS but they are slow and easier to deal with than Falco's or Pit's. ZSS also has a chaingrab on wolf that deals pretty hardcore damage at early percents but is hard to land. There is also of course the dash attack lock which kind of owns Wolf because of his falling mechanics and weight.

 

[_Kain_]

Wolf's bair is better. Wolf is still a sitting duck to ZSS in the air because he falls quickly and his airdodges are easily frametrapped. Uair all day on wolf. Bair vs. bair shouldn't even happen that often.

Side-b stales, nair does not stale.

I don't have a ton of experience here but the few times I've played decent wolf players, it has been frustrating and feels like 6/4 wolf. With that said don't let them land dsmash. It is a LOT EASIER to land dsmash on wolf than it is on most characters because his primary spacing attack is an aerial that can be dsmashed on landing (frame trapped, I mean). Lasers are annoying, as they usually are for ZSS but they are slow and easier to deal with than Falco's or Pit's. ZSS also has a chaingrab on wolf that deals pretty hardcore damage at early percents but is hard to land. There is also of course the dash attack lock which kind of owns Wolf because of his falling mechanics and weight.

Dash attack lock?

 

[castorpollux]

yeah. its called the dazwalk or something named after dazwa lol!

 

[Sesshomuronay]

They can chain dash attacks across the stage and potentially end it with a d-smash into down-b spike.

Haven't ever fought a zss that could actually do that tho, I just remember seeing the demonstration video of it.

Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pItF4Sa5NHY

 

[Seagull Joe]

yeah. its called the dazwalk or something named after dazwa lol!

They can chain dash attacks across the stage and potentially end it with a d-smash into down-b spike.

Haven't ever fought a zss that could actually do that tho, I just remember seeing the demonstration video of it.

Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pItF4Sa5NHY

The Zss I verse does this to me, but I still win a majority of the time. It isn't as gamebreaking as it looks. 60-40 or 55-45 at worst both Wolf's favor.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wolf is still a sitting duck to ZSS in the air because he falls quickly and his airdodges are easily frametrapped.

That's why we have shine and blaster reversal.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

So whats the conclusion? 55-45 wolf's favor?

 

[tedeth]

I think 55-45 is reasonable.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I'll probably update the OP soon. Counterpicks is another thing I would like to bring up.

 

[mars16]

Wolf has this match in the bag

His blaster is Faster

Zero's Blaster is easily reflected

Wolf kills earlier to..................................................I think

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

FYI uair is so disjointed that it should completely pass through Shine and just hit you. ZSS' hurtbox is so small during the move that she's practically invulnerable.

 

[KRDsonic]

You can't "Hit through shine" because shine literally makes Wolf invincible for several frames. It's basically an air dodge with a hit box.

 

[SelfPossessed]

If it is spaced such that only the disjointed part of Uair hits the Shine, then Shine will not hit ZSS's hurtbox. I believe that ZSS's Uair also ends earlier than Wolf's Shine, which means a guaranteed Uair followup if the spacing is correct. I could be wrong on this though.

So basically...
Wolf uses Shine
ZSS uses Uair
Neither hurtbox is hit
ZSS hits with guaranteed Uair

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's way too theoretical and situational to have any application in a real game. Point is that Wolf has 3 solid options against juggle traps. They do a passable job against characters like MK and Marth and thus work fine agains ZSS.

 

[SelfPossessed]

It might have been presumptuous of me, but I was trying to clarify the Uair hitting through Shine statement. I don't know how applicable the situation is, but it does exist and one should be aware of the possibility.

It is also not fair to compare ZSS's Uair juggle trap to MK or Marth.

MK's Uair is better than ZSS's, but MK's aerial speed is far far worse. ZSS can get in position better, so you have to worry about her juggle traps more often.

Marth's Uair (hits on frame 6) is slower to come out than ZSS's (hits on frame 4) and much much much slower to end. Both characters have the same max air speed (1.03), but ZSS has better mobility (.09 vs .07). ZSS's juggle game is far superior.

Data taken from:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204825
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238787

EDIT: Bah, I told myself I wouldn't participate in discussions about matchups that I am unfamiliar with and here I am, doing the exact opposite. Nevermind me.

 

[Gah777]

Can ZSS bait the shine?