Our Community And The Future Of Smash

[SmashChu]

Come on man, be reasonable. I don't want to turn this into a Melee/Project M vs. Brawl/Smash 4 debate, but I will say that when a game dramatically shifts its focus on the complete opposite demographic there will naturally be a divide. Far as I'm concerned that's fine, the casuals can play their game while we play our game. A lot of us are disappointed that we'll probably never see a Smash game that we deem at the level of Melee, and naturally that sparks a lot of heated debates, but for the most part I'd say we're respectful to some degree. Our community is fine.

Long live Melee

I am being reasonable. Do you see SF3 or Marvel 2 at EVO. Do you see Starcraft 1 at GSL (it was waning and THAT was a big game). Do you see Halo 2 at MLG anymore. But why are we still playing Melee in 2014. Why are we the only community that feels the need to NOT play the new game. Heck, I'm sure all those communities complained about the new game too. I know many SC1 players didn't like the removal of some units and being able to command more than 12 units at a time. But they moved on. Why can't Smash?

 

[D-idara]

DISCLAIMER: I know that most Melee players aren't like this. The following post is about a subset of players.

PM will never replace Melee. There are a surprising number of Melee players who dislike Project M because "the recoveries are too stronk" or my personal favourite, "the game is too janky". It's kind of ironic, since as of my understanding, PM was made with Melee players in mind.

Then there's the whole dilemma of Melee players who don't take PM seriously and just enter with Marth/Fox to give themselves something to do whilst they wait for their match, and the people on every PM stream who post "when's Melee? PM sucks" and "I came for Melee. What the heck is this garbage?".

People like Melee because it's Melee. People like Project M because it is it's own thing, not a straightup Melee clone.

I know how Melee players can get over anything that's not OMGUBERHARDZSWEETSPOTRECOVERYCANCEL, but PM's better than Melee and Brawl combined, I mean, it's still a little twitchy and jittering like Melee, but not as much, the game actually feels like it's supposed to play the way it does. I didn't know the Melee community had those kinds of extremists...I guess some people are actually unable to move on to newer things, better or worse.

Come on man, be reasonable. I don't want to turn this into a Melee/Project M vs. Brawl/Smash 4 debate, but I will say that when a game dramatically shifts its focus on the complete opposite demographic there will naturally be a divide. Far as I'm concerned that's fine, the casuals can play their game while we play our game. A lot of us are disappointed that we'll probably never see a Smash game that we deem at the level of Melee, and naturally that sparks a lot of heated debates, but for the most part I'd say we're respectful to some degree. Our community is fine.

Long live Melee

Your post was great until the last few lines, you word it in a way that implies that being 'deemed at the level of Melee' means being similar to Melee, I hold Brawl much higher than Melee because I think it's a better game overall...and no, our community's not fine, everyone's defensive and jumps at the chance to rip out the other side's throats, that's not healthy at all.

 

[LeeYawshee]

Competitive

Casual

Both are pretty fun to watch, it's just in different situations.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

I am being reasonable. Do you see SF3 or Marvel 2 at EVO. Do you see Starcraft 1 at GSL (it was waning and THAT was a big game). Do you see Halo 2 at MLG anymore. But why are we still playing Melee in 2014. Why are we the only community that feels the need to NOT play the new game. Heck, I'm sure all those communities complained about the new game too. I know many SC1 players didn't like the removal of some units and being able to command more than 12 units at a time. But they moved on. Why can't Smash?

Because this isn't like those games. StarCraft 2 and Street Fighter 4 may have tried a lot of new things that the competitive scene deemed questionable, but they were designed FOR the competitive community. Smash clearly isn't anymore. Smash is now designed for grandma and grandpa to play with their grandchildren. How is a hyper-competitive community supposed to get behind a game like that? Should we move on to the next game if it's knocking out your opponents by learning math and your ABC's, just because it's new? Sorry, being new is not good enough. You play your game, we'll play ours.

Your post was great until the last few lines, you word it in a way that implies that being 'deemed at the level of Melee' means being similar to Melee, I hold Brawl much higher than Melee because I think it's a better game overall...and no, our community's not fine, everyone's defensive and jumps at the chance to rip out the other side's throats, that's not healthy at all.

It's not perfect, but it's not nearly as bad as other communities I've been a part of. Even though I disagree with a lot of you half the time, I love to hear everyone's thoughts, and rarely see posts meant to hurt or bully others. I happen to like this community a lot.

 

[LancerStaff]

Because this isn't like those games. StarCraft 2 and Street Fighter 4 may have tried a lot of new things that the competitive scene deemed questionable, but they were designed FOR the competitive community. Smash clearly isn't anymore. Smash is now designed for grandma and grandpa to play with their grandchildren. How is a hyper-competitive community supposed to get behind a game like that? Should we move on to the next game if it's knocking out your opponents by learning math and your ABC's, just because it's new? Sorry, being new is not good enough. You play your game, we'll play ours.

Isn't anymore? Lolwut? SSB always has been designed as a casual, un-fighting game. You have absolutely no proof that it was supposed to be "hardcore" in the first place.

 

[pickle962]

I am being reasonable. Do you see SF3 or Marvel 2 at EVO. Do you see Starcraft 1 at GSL (it was waning and THAT was a big game). Do you see Halo 2 at MLG anymore. But why are we still playing Melee in 2014. Why are we the only community that feels the need to NOT play the new game. Heck, I'm sure all those communities complained about the new game too. I know many SC1 players didn't like the removal of some units and being able to command more than 12 units at a time. But they moved on. Why can't Smash?

While it is true that Brawl had it's time in the sun for a while in the competitive community, "most" pro matches quickly devolved into campfests or someone using MetaKnight which meant that anyone I'd say past C tier was ****ed (though there were occasional exceptions) not to mention the game felt sluggish in some respects (which smash 4 seems to be correcting based on positive reactions i.e more balanced cast (Bowser is faster than ever and Pit can now actually KO people), being faster and more fluid than Brawl, and I've heard it seems Sm4sh will discourage things that made Brawl unappealing to the competitive scene). You are entitled to your opinion dude. Im NOT bashing that I'm just giving a generalization as to why Brawl is all but outright ignored these days on the competitive scene.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Isn't anymore? Lolwut? SSB always has been designed as a casual, un-fighting game. You have absolutely no proof that it was supposed to be "hardcore" in the first place.

Sakurai: "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," Sakurai said. "But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then? That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance. There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

From the horses' mouth.

 

[D-idara]

Because this isn't like those games. StarCraft 2 and Street Fighter 4 may have tried a lot of new things that the competitive scene deemed questionable, but they were designed FOR the competitive community. Smash clearly isn't anymore. Smash is now designed for grandma and grandpa to play with their grandchildren. How is a hyper-competitive community supposed to get behind a game like that? Should we move on to the next game if it's knocking out your opponents by learning math and your ABC's, just because it's new? Sorry, being new is not good enough. You play your game, we'll play ours.

You're doing a disgusting amount of generalization and you're sounding pretty condescending and obnoxious with that grandpa-grandma comment. Funnily enough, you use math and your ABC's as a ridiculous analogy to trashtalk Brawl and Smash4's gameplay, but there's nothing wrong with a competitive game being based around THE BASICS, THE CORE, why do you need complex binomial operations when the game gives you enough freedom and creativity to exploit and utilize your maths and ABC's? Because complex binomial operations are harder and that somehow makes them better? (Hint: It doesn't)

I also love how you end with 'You play your game, we'll play ours' after trashtalking Smash 4 to hell and over, like 'It's bad, but you can like it' Well big surprise, it's not bad, are you trying to even suggest that high-level Brawl doesn't require a huge amount of fast reactions, hard reads and OH...TECHNICAL SKILL!?

 

[aldelaro5]

I'm not competitive by any means but I'm worried about how it could change the way I use this site since I almost quit once.

After E3 2013 (a similar thing happened after this E3 but thanks the the mods it wasn't as bad as 2013), I was surprised to see lots of negative impression on the game. In fact, there was too much discussion that didn't seem friendly to me as a new member which kinda lowered my interest to post. Until at one point some week before the DDOS I decided to just take a break from this site because I felt that people need to calm down. Ironically, it happened right after with the most improbable way: a 1 month DDOS.

Yeah that's right I liked the DDOS period just for that. I honestly don't know why but after the site got back up, all this unfriendly talk was mostly gone. That's how I ended my hiatius but that's so weird that I see more friendly talk after a month of absolutely no talk. It's like it calmed down people.

I don't know if I didn't checked deep enough before but I don't think that getting a DDOS to calm people is a good news. What I'm worried now is that this may happen again but this time, what will prevent this? It's not like a DDOS can happen everyday especially the one last year but it's just annoying to be unsure of the site's stability (post contents).

I hope it will not affect my feel towards this site because I want to talk about the new game not necessarily from a competitive standpoint.

my two cents.

 

[LancerStaff]

Sakurai: "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," Sakurai said. "But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then? That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance. There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

From the horses' mouth.

"I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," So it wasn't "hardcore" in the first place...
"But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then?" Did he intentionally target hardcores? No. The first line is evidence of this. Melee was just an accident. Unless you can prove otherwise, that is.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

You're doing a disgusting amount of generalization and you're sounding pretty condescending and obnoxious with that grandpa-grandma comment. Funnily enough, you use math and your ABC's as a ridiculous analogy to trashtalk Brawl and Smash4's gameplay, but there's nothing wrong with a competitive game being based around THE BASICS, THE CORE, why do you need complex binomial operations when the game gives you enough freedom and creativity to exploit and utilize your maths and ABC's? Because complex binomial operations are harder and that somehow makes them better? (Hint: It doesn't)

I also love how you end with 'You play your game, we'll play ours' after trashtalking Smash 4 to hell and over, like 'It's bad, but you can like it' Well big surprise, it's not bad, are you trying to even suggest that high-level Brawl doesn't require a huge amount of fast reactions, hard reads and OH...TECHNICAL SKILL!?

I think you're severely misunderstanding me. I'm not trying to say Brawl is a bad game, I actually played it quite a lot. Sakurai was quite clear that Brawl was designed more for non-gamers so my grandma-grandpa example is certainly not off-base, and not meant as an insult. It's just the truth. You can definitely play Brawl competitively, and takes a great degree of skill to play at a high level, but it's not designed for that quite obviously.

"I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," So it wasn't "hardcore" in the first place...
"But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then?" Did he intentionally target hardcores? No. The first line is evidence of this. Melee was just an accident. Unless you can prove otherwise, that is.

I think you need to work on your reading comprehension, to be honest.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think you're severely misunderstanding me. I'm not trying to say Brawl is a bad game, I actually played it quite a lot. Sakurai was quite clear that Brawl was designed more for non-gamers so my grandma-grandpa topic is certainly not off-base, and not meant as an insult. It's just the truth. You can definitely play Brawl competitively, and takes a great degree of skill to play at a high level, but it's not designed for that quite obviously.



I think you need to work on your reading comprehension, to be honest.

I think you need to remember the exact meaning of the sentence was changed in translation, to be honest.

What "hardcore" mechanics were intentionally added in? L-canceling. Wavedashing was "found" by Sakurai, remember? You don't just "find" Luigi, do you? Almost every "tech" in Melee was a completely unintentional use of something or just an outright glitch Sakurai was too lazy to fix. Sakurai intentionally added nothing to directly appeal to competitives.

 

[Saikyoshi]

This thread is going nowhere except completely out of hand fast. We're just going over the same topic for the ten thousandth time.

 

[pickle962]

One other thing I'd like to bring up concerning WHY Melee and Project M are doing well for themselves at weekly tourneys and at the likes of MLG and Evo while Brawl is being prepared for cremation as we near Smash 4's launch in a few months.



TRIPPING

Tripping was about as necessary as if you stubbed your toe or broke your arm delivering a strong attack in Street Fighter or Tekken. I feel this is the main reason along with being less fluid than Melee was even without advanced movement options that Brawl got dumped on to begin with even though it had something of a life on the competitive scene from like 2008-2010ish? Does EVERY competitive fighter need movement options like the ones in Melee and PM? Maybe not if it's your traditional 2-D fighter like Street Fighter, but for a platform fighter like Smash Bros, the answer is YES. A lack of that is one thing, but scrappy mechanics like tripping coupled with it? Is it any wonder that hardly ANYONE cares about Brawl's competitive scene these days with the rise and success of the Project Melee mod and Sm4sh being on the horizon?

 

[SKM_NeoN]

I think you need to remember the exact meaning of the sentence was changed in translation, to be honest.

And you know the actual meaning of his words how, exactly? Do you read fluent Japanese and get a hold of Japanese documents of this discussion?

What "hardcore" mechanics were intentionally added in? L-canceling. Wavedashing was "found" by Sakurai, remember? You don't just "find" Luigi, do you? Almost every "tech" in Melee was a completely unintentional use of something or just an outright glitch Sakurai was too lazy to fix. Sakurai intentionally added nothing to directly appeal to competitives.

Wavedashing wasn't removed because it was awesome, not because Sakurai is lazy. I think we can all agree that he is an extremely hard-working man.

SHFFLing

Power Shielding

Wallteching

Spot Dodging

Just to name a few from the top of my head. Let's not forget the crazy increase in speed.

 

[Saikyoshi]

You're both wrong. Wavedashing was seen as a harmless physics quirk when it was found, and it wasn't removed because he (wrongly) assumed it would have no effect on gameplay.

If you're going to start a flame war, at least get your facts straight.

 

[pickle962]

I'm not competitive by any means but I'm worried about how it could change the way I use this site since I almost quit once.

After E3 2013 (a similar thing happened after this E3 but thanks the the mods it wasn't as bad as 2013), I was surprised to see lots of negative impression on the game. In fact, there was too much discussion that didn't seem friendly to me as a new member which kinda lowered my interest to post. Until at one point some week before the DDOS I decided to just take a break from this site because I felt that people need to calm down. Ironically, it happened right after with the most improbable way: a 1 month DDOS.

Yeah that's right I liked the DDOS period just for that. I honestly don't know why but after the site got back up, all this unfriendly talk was mostly gone. That's how I ended my hiatius but that's so weird that I see more friendly talk after a month of absolutely no talk. It's like it calmed down people.

I don't know if I didn't checked deep enough before but I don't think that getting a DDOS to calm people is a good news. What I'm worried now is that this may happen again but this time, what will prevent this? It's not like a DDOS can happen everyday especially the one last year but it's just annoying to be unsure of the site's stability (post contents).

I hope it will not affect my feel towards this site because I want to talk about the new game not necessarily from a competitive standpoint.

my two cents.

DDOS period? How did that happen?

 

[SKM_NeoN]

You're both wrong. Wavedashing was seen as a harmless physics quirk when it was found, and it wasn't removed because he (wrongly) assumed it would have no effect on gameplay.

If you're going to start a flame war, at least get your facts straight.

It's not a flame war, it's a discussion. If anyone's being hurt by it they can stop being so sensitive.

Edit: My wavedashing comment was meant to be facetious, I don't actually know why they kept it in, but I know it's not because Sakurai is a lazy individual. I give him at least that much credit.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

STOP! Everyone, just seriously, think about what you're doing right now. Not every post here is awful, but quite a few are really pushing it in the same tired direction of "hey guys, let's pile on Brawl and talk about how bad it and everyone who plays it is". I'm a Brawl player, and I'm already starting to feel a huge urge to get really defensive especially when I see people talking about how bad Brawl is from positions that clearly do not understand its metagame. Meta Knight is not the best character because he beats bad characters by large margins; he's the best character because he beats all characters including the other good ones by some margin and actually most low tiers lose worse to other good characters than they lose to Meta Knight, tripping barely affects the game, "defense" is not even antithetical to depth or nuance neither of which Brawl is lacking at all, etc.. I don't even want to argue about that stuff, but it really does just hurt me to see people posting about how Brawl plays and how bad it is when they don't get that stuff. The entire point of this thread, several I've made, and heck of almost every reasonable post I've ever seen on these forums is that we really don't want to do stuff like that. Brawl is on death's door for one reason, and that's because of stuff like this for years upon years. It did add up to give Brawl a strong foot in the grave, and it stunted the growth of every other game too because you know that's what toxic behavior does: hurt everyone even as it hurts the target the worst of all. The perceptions of any given smashboards user of Sakurai's intentions in making any given game are also so far from relevant to what we're doing here; can we also agree to just not discuss that anymore?

So please, for the love of smash, just step back, think about what you are posting, and try to make good decisions. Don't make claims about the metagames of games you poorly understand especially as those claims are intended to discredit those games, don't post things that are just obviously going to be divisive, don't take obvious bait intended to stir up animosities, and do focus on just promoting what you love.

 

[LancerStaff]

And you know the actual meaning of his words how, exactly? Do you read fluent Japanese and get a hold of Japanese documents of this discussion?



Wavedashing wasn't removed because it was awesome, not because Sakurai is lazy. I think we can all agree that he is an extremely hard-working man.

SHFFLing

Power Shielding

Wallteching

Spot Dodging

Just to name a few from the top of my head. Let's not forget the crazy increase in speed.

No, I don't. However, do you? This statement is in direct contradiction with the previous. It makes more sense for a word to be forgotten then for Sakurai to contradict himself in the same sentence.

Wavedashing was found late into development. So late, he couldn't even add a line of code like "cancel momentum when airdodging" or something. There's no way he fully understood what it'd do to the meta-game, either.

SHFFLing is just a string of normal actions. Isn't is possible in 64 also? The rest are just extensions of previous mechanics. Speed? SSB64 is quite slow to the casual player, so Sakurai was just fixing it. It proved to be too much when combined with glitches. You just have to understand, Melee was an accident. There's nothing to say otherwise.

 

[aldelaro5]

DDOS period? How did that happen?

oh so you don't seem to know about it. Well, I think it was around July or August 2013 I don't remember exactly but this site, project m site and allisbrawl got DDOS by an unknown person. We still don't know who did it but the DDOS was apparently very heavy so much (and some communication difficulties) that it took a month before the forum got back online. In the meantime, the site was on a general wordpress blog to inform about the news but the main forum was still offline. Absolutely no one was able to access and therefore post until it got back online. The cause is still unknown but it basically came out out of nowhere.

What I said is that after this period, strangely enough, the forums seemed more friendly as before for me which is what got me back but I didn't tell that I disliked the discussions. That's what I'm talking about but, since you aren't aware of the DDOS, you shouldn't be aware of the atmosphere of the site right after E3 2013 so... you probably didn't experienced it.

 

[Saikyoshi]

It's not a flame war, it's a discussion. If anyone's being hurt by it they can stop being so sensitive.

Edit: My wavedashing comment was meant to be facetious, I don't actually know why they kept it in, but I know it's not because Sakurai is a lazy individual. I give him at least that much credit.

If it's not a flame war, then it's a barrel of gunpowder. And I see a lot of people with matches.

 

[allison]

This thread has devolved into exactly the sort of thing it was trying to stop.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

No, I don't. However, do you? This statement is in direct contradiction with the previous. It makes more sense for a word to be forgotten then for Sakurai to contradict himself in the same sentence.

Wavedashing was found late into development. So late, he couldn't even add a line of code like "cancel momentum when airdodging" or something. There's no way he fully understood what it'd do to the meta-game, either.

SHFFLing is just a string of normal actions. Isn't is possible in 64 also? The rest are just extensions of previous mechanics. Speed? SSB64 is quite slow to the casual player, so Sakurai was just fixing it. It proved to be too much when combined with glitches. You just have to understand, Melee was an accident. There's nothing to say otherwise.

In my eyes the proof is in the pudding. Intentional or not Melee was designed for competitive play and, for better or for worse, Brawl and maybe Smash 4 are not. That's why there is a divide. If this design philosophy continues there will continue to be a divide.

Honestly I planned on staying out of this discussion because I have a feeling a lot of people already dislike me (not that I have a problem with it, just didn't want to invite too much controversy with my strong opinions), but Smashchu's reply compelled me to do so *shrug*.

 

[Pyra]

This thread has devolved into exactly the sort of thing it was trying to stop.

Yeeeeeep.
I'm suddenly uninterested in this topic because I should have expected this to erupt.

It's the same stupid argument every time. Have fun guys.

The argument's not "hurting" me, so don't patronize me like it is. Don't act like you're better than anyone else cause you want to be in a perpetual pissing match and others are tired of it.

You guys can have your discussion (or however you guys want to label it).

I just got tired of reading the same thing in every thread that tries to prevent this sort of thing.

 

[LancerStaff]

In my eyes the proof is in the pudding. Intentional or not Melee was designed for competitive play and, for better or for worse, Brawl and maybe Smash 4 are not. That's why there is a divide. If this design philosophy continues there will continue to be a divide.

Honestly I planned on staying out of this discussion because I have a feeling a lot of people already dislike me (not that I have a problem with it, just didn't want to invite too much controversy with my strong opinions), but Smashchu's reply compelled me to do so *shrug*.

I don't see anything proven. You have one line as evidence as to that Melee was supposed to be taken seriously. The man's very game-making ideals have always favored the "silent majority," as he puts it.

The divide has always been there, but Brawl shifted it directly to competitive players. It was inevitable really, since everybody thought Brawl was going to be like Melee for some unfathomable reason.

 

[pickle962]

I don't see anything proven. You have one line as evidence as to that Melee was supposed to be taken seriously. The man's very game-making ideals have always favored the "silent majority," as he puts it.

The divide has always been there, but Brawl shifted it directly to competitive players. It was inevitable really, since everybody thought Brawl was going to be like Melee for some unfathomable reason.

We weren't necessarily expecting Brawl to be exactly LIKE Melee, just a worthy sequel that satisfies both the casual and competitive groups much like its predecessors. Unfortunately, Brawl leaned TOO far towards one end of the spectrum and I don't think I need to spell it out to anyone on here which spectrum that was

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Kill Melee.

I will discuss this more, but if the community is to move on, Melee needs to kicked to the curve.

This is not how you bring people together.

This is how you create conflict with the purpose of ending a game people still like.

In my eyes the proof is in the pudding. Intentional or not Melee was designed for competitive play and, for better or for worse, Brawl and maybe Smash 4 are not. That's why there is a divide. If this design philosophy continues there will continue to be a divide.

Honestly I planned on staying out of this discussion because I have a feeling a lot of people already dislike me (not that I have a problem with it, just didn't want to invite too much controversy with my strong opinions), but Smashchu's reply compelled me to do so *shrug*.

This also causes the same effect because this post and others you have posted seem to be geared.

Also what Sakurai says is irrelevant, that quote you keep reciting means nothing to how people play or compete with one another in any of the same games.

 

[supercopper64]

I did not read any thing other than the OP, but holy crap, your OP touched my heart.

 

[---]

Except you need to actually facilitate discussion. Nothing is going on in this thread right now so why was this post made in the first place.

Look, this is an important topic and discussions shouldn't be neutered by hyper sensitive mods. We shouldn't shut down a thread (or even threaten too) because someone got upset that someone else disagreed with their opinion. Words get flung but you need to let discussion take place.

Based on the topic, this thread is currently on our list of threads that could break out into flame wars fairly easily.

More importantly, some reports have come out of this thread and instead of resorting to warnings/infractions or simply locking the thread and killing off discussion then and there, it seemed more appropriate to give a quick reminder for people to stay respectful of one another while debating and that rude comments/flame wars will not be tolerated.

As to not further detract from the thread's main discussion, if you have any more questions feel free to PM me or go to Forum Support.

 

[supercopper64]

oops wrong thread, very sorry, please don't give me an infriction it was an accident

 

[Cassio]

Brawl is as competitive as Melee. Most (i.e. almost all) people aren't familiar with the term or have the understanding to judge. Realize this and reserve your judgements for friends and statements of personal taste, and everyone will get along dandy. Most conflict occurs out of ignorance.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

This also causes the same effect because this post and others you have posted seem to be geared.

Also what Sakurai says is irrelevant, that quote you keep reciting means nothing to how people play or compete with one another in any of the same games.

Maybe I'm wording my posts poorly (or, the more likely effect, people are choosing to be overly defensive), but my intention was not to spark controversy or make Brawl players feel bad. What I am saying is straightforward and truthful. When someone explains why this divide exists from a game design philosophy standpoint, everyone shouldn't be shooting the messenger because the truth hurts them.

 

[Cassio]

It's not that anyone's upset at you I think, it's that (unfortunately like many others) you're wrong. The statement is false, both games were designed for competitive play. Secondly, intention is irrelevant.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Brawl is competitive no doubt (as to what extent is debatable), but the majority of competitive players feel it isn't competitive enough, at least not compared to Melee. Hence the rift.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Okay, this has came up in so many separate threads that aren't even related to the subject at hand to the point where it seems it needs to have a thread of its own where it can be discussed properly.

Let's be honest with ourselves. #oneunit is a joke, farce, and a lie. We are not together in any way. Our community is horribly split, whether it be Melee vs Brawl, Melee vs Smash 4, 3DS vs Wii U, Project M vs Smash 4/Melee/Brawl, and even Smash 64 tends to isolate itself from newcomers at times. In other words, out community is fractured and fracturing more and more as time goes by. Threads are devolving into arguments left and right, and it doesn't seem to be slowing down. We may share venues for events, but we couldn't be farther apart as a community.

So the real question is, how do we deal with this? If it continues, it only serves to hurt us all as a community. It makes us look immature and uninviting to outsiders, and will stunt our community growth. After coming so far these last few years and building more and more with sponsorship, bigger events, and Nintendo giving us a special tournament we have the possibility of going into a new era of smash bigger then ever before and we stand as a community ready to possibly throw it away over these kinds of petty squabbles and only get a fraction of what is possible in terms of success.

We face a future of a new game with no many new features and possibilities that also already shows how people excited for the same game can't even get along and have a civil conversation as well. Why is civility so hard for us all to manage

TLDR; What does it take to finally stop all of our petty squabbles, for us to all be civil with each other, and actually come together as a community?

Capps, you are always posing questions and never solutions.

The fact of the matter is most people push Smash whenever possible but we also push it where it is appropriate as people aren't going to play a game that they don't want to play. In this respect, the community is fairly cohesive. If there are enough people wanting to play several games they will usually be all played at the same event. I haven't heard of anyone going out of their way to host individual games at separate venues. It's really not severe like you make it out to be.

For example, Central Alabama has been lacking a regular Smash group for a while now but recently with enough push for the series, several of us have been able to round people up and try to make things work (even though it ended up that the games we pretty much all have a preference for are Melee and Project M).

And Capps, a new game isn't reason enough for most people to pick it up over an existing one. This isn't unique to Smash. People had the same problem with StarCraft and so on. I would have hoped by now after all the time you've spent on this forum you would have realized that arguments go back to having preferences to begin with, and you can't change that. You're not going to be able to convince people that they will have more fun with X over Y via persuasion and that's really what it comes down to.

Maybe your solution for the new game is that people who wouldn't enjoy the game at a competitive level should put aside preference and prejudice and just support the game anyway - but if they won't show up at events, it's all for nothing. And besides, people just aren't going to put their shoulder to the wheel over a game that seems less fun than one they already prefer. Preferences are not intrinsically bad.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I honestly think none of the games were made for competitive play outside of Smash 4 which looks like a first attempt with a ladder and "for Glory" mode.

 

[Cassio]

"More/ less Competitive" isn't even really a thing. Some people are trying to make a statement on brawls depth, but then again those same people don't understand the game and would get wrecked by competent players who do . Which goes back to people making judgements about shiz they don't know.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

People who say Smash isn't a fighting game.

I think people are too set in their ways to come together at this point. Hopefully I'm wrong.

So we hate Sakurai? Sounds like a bad plan.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Religion tends to be a source of many of the world's conflicts. This applies to even things that aren't necessarily religion itself. Melee is almost seen religiously sometimes. And if seen "religiously", it will always have a higher chance of sparking conflict. This doesn't just apply to Melee though. This could apply to any game; Smash 4 included.

There are several core problems as to why conflict arises in topics such as this. There is no definitive root, but several. So in order to help aid the problem, we need to study each individual root cause, and address it.


1) The competitive scene being seen "religiously".

This usually applies to Melee, but regardless, this is usually the largest problem. Melee was indeed a great game, with a lot of great (though debatable) mechanics. Wavedashing, L-Teching, DJCing, and more. For me? I personally loved them all. I love how Melee was competitive, and how engaging it was for players. But I am not going to see it as an "End-All, Be-All" sort of game. The mechanics of the game weren't intended to be a formula that future sequels were meant to follow. It didn't even start the formula for Smash as a whole; Smash 64 did. A lot of people get confused by that, because the core formula of Smash is that it is meant to be fun. Granted, everyone has their own variation of fun, and it could be argued that Melee was the game that crafted the formula for competitive Smash play. But everyone has to remember that it is still just a game, and the core element of Smash is that it is meant to be fun. Again though, everyone has their own perspective of what fun is. But you have to remember that the competitive aspects of Smash are only secondary to what these games are designed for. And, if a particular game in the series doesn't apply to your ideal of fun? Simply don't play it. Enjoy what you find to be fun, but don't ruin it for other people. Competitive scenes will develop for each game within the series. If a particular scene doesn't appeal to your interests based upon the game it is about (Brawl for example), simply don't partake in conversations there, and give people respect for the game that they love. If you are someone like me, who just loves all Smash games in general, then feel free to join them all. Ultimately though, each game should be enjoyed as its own entity, and not as something formulaic in concerns to something (competitiveness) that is only secondary to the series's true nature.

2) A player's own lack, or refusal, of adaptation.

This is a subsection that branches off from the first main point that I have provided. Every Smash game easily has the potential to be competitive. While the competitiveness of the game is only secondary, it is still every bit as integrated as the first ("fun"). Because the main object of the game is to take the opponent out, by definition of this mechanic alone, every Smash game will ALWAYS have the potential to be competitive. "More competitive", "less competitive" you say? These statements hardly matter, as they are subjective; much like how the perception of "fun" in each Smash game is subjective. Every Smash game is competitive in a different manner, and should be treated as such. So then, what is holding back one game (Brawl) from being as competitive as another game (Melee)? Adaptation. Not everyone is willing to adapt to new experiences, especially if it diverts from something that they already enjoy and are familiar with. Players often lock themselves to a particular game (Melee) if it becomes something that is both enjoyable and familiar to them. This makes them grow to detest, and resent something that they are unfamiliar with (Brawl), or simply just don't find to be fun. And, honestly? There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. People are free to enjoy the things they love, and feel comfortable with. Though players also need to understand that, if something isn't fun or is unfamiliar with them, it is a personal problem. It isn't the game's fault if it isn't enjoyable to you. It is your own fault if a game isn't fun to you. Though, while the aspects of something being "fun" and "competitive" are subjective to the person that perceives it, every Smash game will always have the potential to have those things to those not only willing to just try it, but to try to adapt to each game as well. The main objectives in Smash will always be the same: To have fun, and to win. These two elements are all a game needs in order to be competitive, and they are the only two things that I personally think about whenever I play a Smash game. As a human being, I was born with the ability to adapt. So, while there will always be situations in the future that I am unfamiliar with, that doesn't mean that I should immediately detest and dislike them, but rather I could try to adapt to the situations around me instead. If it still ends up being something that I don't like, then hey, I can always just avoid such topics/situations/etc that don't appeal to my interests. This should apply to Smash players, as well. Try to adapt to something that you are unfamiliar with. And if it still doesn't appeal to you? Simply leave it alone, and just move on.

3) The problematic "Meant for Me" mentality.

Many players, though not everyone, feel as though that Smash games should be made specifically for them. And this is a rather erroneous way of looking at Smash, and the world, in general. The Smash games are designed to appeal to millions of people, each with their own perception of what fun is. I have seen a lot of people bring up the argument "Have you ever tried making a game?". Well, it isn't the actual process of making a game that is hard. With enough time, dedication, and talent; anyone game make a game if they truly wanted to (Project M). That part is easy, and...very irrelevant, to be quite frank. The hard part is that it has to appeal to millions of gamers around the world, and not just one person. Or heck, even a group of individuals (Smashboards). Why is this something that is hard? Because not only does each person have their own perception of what "fun" is; what could be good for another person, could be bad for another person. This applies to everything in life, and this includes Smash as well. Whether it be the game's mechanics, the character roster, the music, the stages, or what-have-you; some person is inevitably going to end up disliking something that another person is going to like. THIS is the hard part when it comes to making games, and additionally, making games is a business first and foremost. It is their job to make money for their company, and they aren't really going to care about a few lost sales so long as they appeal to a large majority of people. Even if we exclude the business aspect though, Sakurai is trying to appeal to as many people as possible. And that is something that is truly respectable. So while he might not always have the best ideas to try to go about this (*coughtrippingcough*), but it is what he wishes to accomplish. Is what he perceives, or what he creates a good thing? That is for you to decide. But remember that the game isn't meant just for you, it is meant for everyone. This includes Sakurai as well. As his own creation, I wish for his own satisfaction with what he does with the game. It is part of his life's work, after all. And what he has brought us thus far, I sincerely enjoy. Does that mean that he should remove mechanics from Melee, since they really don't harm casual players? It doesn't really matter, because that isn't our decision. It is his decision. If he removes such elements from future games because he feels as though it interrupts the overall balance of the game? Then hey, that is his own perception of his own creation as a whole. And he has every right to do such things. That doesn't stop the games that he creates from being fun, or competitive. We do that to ourselves. Even so, he has shown that he is still trying to cater to us, as well as everyone else. Combos are back, the game is faster overall, tripping is gone, and several characters are getting balanced to try to make them more competitive (Bowser). But even though we got these changes, Smash is meant to be enjoyed by everyone. Even though we are a portion of the entire consumer-base, we shouldn't feel as though that the game is meant for us, and that Sakurai should make the game to cater to our own needs. It is up to him how he makes his own game; and it is up to up to decide whether or not we enjoy the product he creates. Simple as that. If we don't like it, then hey, there are plenty of other things to enjoy in life. Or in this instance, a large variety of other Smash games that we could choose from (64/Melee/Brawl/Brawl+/Balanced Brawl/Brawl Minus/Project M). We have options to cater to our own needs, and that is what matters.

4) Mind over Mechanics.

Wavedashing, L-Techning, DJCing, DACUSing, Glide Tossing, and more; I love all of these mechanics. Are they necessary to win a match? Sure. In several instances, you might need these techniques in order to have an edge over your opponent. But are they necessary to make a game competitive, let alone good? No, not really. As much as I love all of those things, a player's own mind will always be the definitive edge that they can have against their opponents, and what will make games competitive. Just because they were present in previous Smash games, doesn't necessarily mean that they are necessary to make Smash 4 competitive or fun for players. We already have what it takes to accomplish that. Experience, and learning are always going to be tools at our disposal when it comes to competitive play. Spacing, reading your opponents, practice, improving offense and defense, adapting to new situations and challenges, timing your moves; these techniques are what make Smash games truly competitive. We only abused Wavedashing, L-Teching, and etc because they were available to us at the time. But it was our mind that made them available to us in the first place. If players can adapt to a game in which these elements were present (Melee/Brawl), players can still just as easily adapt to a game without such elements (Smash 4) in due time. We may even discover even more advanced techniques in Smash 4 whenever it comes out, who knows? But it is our own minds that make the games we play competitive; learning the mechanics of the game is only secondary. But the mechanics themselves aren't necessary to playing the game. You adapt, you beat your opponent, and you win. Those are the basic rules to almost every single competitive game in the world, and Smash is no exception to this rule.

5) People are a mixture, not a solution.

People will be people. We will always have our differences with eachother. We will find things other people say to be agreeable, or other times, we can hate their guts. But people will always have their own likes, dislikes, hopes, fears, thoughts, and feelings. And we should always try to be mindful, and respectful towards other people as long as they don't give us a true warranted reason to hate them. Always remember that the things you say to somebody online, you aren't saying to a robot. You are talking to human beings, and you should always try to treat them as such. People are always going to have their differences, though people can always work them out as long as they try. Though there will never be a true solution, because of how complex people are. Much like people, Smash is going to be the same way. Each new game is going to have their own differences that we are either going to like, or dislike. But Smash games don't have feelings, like people do. So talking to other people in a respectful manner should always take precedence over talking about the game itself. So, regardless of your love for Smash, you aren't the only one. And we are all here for the same reason. Sure, we all perceive it in our own ways, but mostly all of us love Smash Brothers in one way or another. So regardless of our differences, we all aren't as different as you think. So remember to treat others, as you would treat yourself. This won't always form a true solution, but a compromise that can benefit both parties. It's funny that I mention that, because from what I have seen of Smash 4, that is how I feel the game is going to turn out to be. For both casual, and competitive players. So while a true unity/solution may never be reached, it is better to have good experiences to share with the people around you than bad ones. So, don't just try to make things enjoyable for yourself, but for other people as well. And this is a community that's full of people that love Smash. So always be mindful, and respectful towards them; and they will be more likely to do the same for you, too. Be it Smash 64, Melee, Brawl, Project M, Smash 4, or whatever variation of Smash; we are all here to have fun with the game we love. So while the perception of fun will always be different, it is still a universal feeling that can be felt by all of us.


If we take these five points into consideration, I am sure that we can all make a better community. Not just for ourselves, but everyone here. I may have not worded these things the best, but hey, I'm only human. And those are my thoughts/feelings in regards to this topic.