Our Community And The Future Of Smash

[~ Gheb ~]

Are people really this scared to call the actual problem by its name? The reason why the community is split and why Brawl is supposedly dying and why so many people are afraid of the same thing happening the smash 4 is of course the melee community and nobody else. They have terrorized the Brawl community for 6 years. There have been on media crusades to make absolutely sure that Brawl gets no public exposure whatsoever. They have done everything in their power to sabotage any success that Brawl could have had.

How many times have Brawl players been booed by Melee people on stream or in tournament?
How many times have Melee commentators made degrading remarks about Brawl on stream?
How many videos of the Melee community are out there with the purpose of taunting the brawl community?
How many Melee players keep bashing Brawl on the forums - many of them have never even played Brawl in the first place!
How come Melee made it to the EVO lineup last year only because Brawl players who don't even play Melee voted for it? The mere thought of Melee doing even remotely the same thing for the Brawl community would be absolutely ridiculous. Doesn't that say EVERYTHING about the so-called 'smash community'?

So how long are we going to continue pretending that the Melee community is not the problem when it evidentely is? Do we need to have Smash 4 destroyed by these terrorists as well until we realize that something needs to be done? The melee community is a cancer cell. The bigger it becomes, the more destructive it is. You either adjust to it [like PM does] or you get kill by it [like Brawl did]. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can look for solutions. But as long as there are escapist dreamers who follow the laughable "#oneunit" idea things will only get worse, not better.

This is not how you bring people together.

Trying to bring Brawlers and Melee together is like trying to bring together Jews and Nazis.
Why would I want to be brought together with people who think of me as a lower life-form for playing Brawl?
Why would the melee community want to be brought together with second-class humans who play Brawl?

 

[D-idara]

Are people really this scared to call the actual problem by its name? The reason why the community is split and why Brawl is supposedly dying and why so many people are afraid of the same thing happening the smash 4 is of course the melee community and nobody else. They have terrorized the Brawl community for 6 years. There have been on media crusades to make absolutely sure that Brawl gets no public exposure whatsoever. They have done everything in their power to sabotage any success that Brawl could have had.

How many times have Brawl players been booed by Melee people on stream or in tournament?
How many times have Melee commentators made degrading remarks about Brawl on stream?
How many videos of the Melee community are out there with the purpose of taunting the brawl community?
How many Melee players keep bashing Brawl on the forums - many of them have never even played Brawl in the first place!
How come Melee made it to the EVO lineup last year only because Brawl players who don't even play Melee voted for it? The mere thought of Melee doing even remotely the same thing for the Brawl community would be absolutely ridiculous. Doesn't that say EVERYTHING about the so-called 'smash community'?

So how long are we going to continue pretending that the Melee community is not the problem when it evidentely is? Do we need to have Smash 4 destroyed by these terrorists as well until we realize that something needs to be done? The melee community is a cancer cell. The bigger it becomes, the more destructive it is. You either adjust to it [like PM does] or you get kill by it [like Brawl did]. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can look for solutions. But as long as there are escapist dreamers who follow the laughable "#oneunit" idea things will only get worse, not better.



Trying to bring Brawlers and Melee together is like trying to bring together Jews and Nazis.
Why would I want to be brought together with people who think of me as a lower life-form for playing Brawl?
Why would the melee community want to be brought together with second-class humans who play Brawl?

A bit extreme and harsh, but truth tends to be like that, think about this, though: Not all Melee players are those terrorists you talk about, some of them simply prefer Melee and accept that the various Smash games might appeal to different people, and I can respect those people. I think the worst offenders are the people that boo Brawl players and Brawl tournaments, the people who do it obviously haven't got over fifth grade and can't act like adults.

I understand what your post tries to say, and I agree completely, the Brawl community wants Smash to flourish, the Melee community wants Melee to flourish. This is evidenced by Brawl players upvoting a game they might not even like because it's Smash.

EDIT: A PART of the Melee community wants only Melee to flourish.

 

[Phaazoid]

I have to say, this thread is becoming a perfect example of the point it's trying to prove/fix. If anyone had any doubts that this problem is real, all they have to do is read this thread.

Here are some objective points, that may or may not help find a solution.

When Smash 4 comes out, most of the people that play Brawl will transition to it. Brawl wasn't as widely heralded as melee was, so there won't be nearly as large a community that sticks to it.

Smash 4 is going to get a lot of players, sell a lot of 3DS's and Wii U's, and is one of Nintendo's biggest hype games. Not only that, but it is the launch platform for their new Amiibo peripheral. Nintendo is going to try to push this game as much as they can, it's one of their biggest cash cows.

Smash 4's release will probably draw more players from the Project M community than the Melee community. Staying committed to melee after this many years shows dedication, and a strong love for the game. Playing project M shows both a love for competition, with the flexibility for change. Regardless of how competitive Smash 4 ends up being, it will represent change. This doesn't mean much for the players who play more than one game, of course.

Smash 4 is not Melee 2.0, Brawl 2.0, or Project M .5 or whatever. It will be its own game, with a new community, a combination of old communities and a lot of new players as well.

So what does this mean? I don't know. My opinion is

Let people who want to play 64/Melee/PM/Brawl play those games. Represent the games that still have enough requests at tournaments. Represent Smash 4 at the very least because it's new and you can't judge its competitive viability without in depth analysis. You can't please everyone, no matter what, but you can try to please a lot of people.

 

[Forcerounds]

Accept that each game is too different to replace any of the other games.

Play whatever installment suits your tastes, and accept that not everyone will play the same installment you prefer.

And don't worry too much about your preference not showing up at every tournament. The franchise is so popular, that your preference is bound to be in a tournament somewhere.

 

[Saikyoshi]

@ItsRainingGravy: Well-said. I always felt the same way, and it's always bothered me, but I couldn't bring myself to say it out of fear of sounding unfaithful or blasphemous to my own actual religion by comparing it to fandom squabbles.

@ ~ Gheb ~ : And here comes good ol' Godwin's Law. How dare you put this on the same level of importance as the Holocaust.

 

[Renji64]

Are people really this scared to call the actual problem by its name? The reason why the community is split and why Brawl is supposedly dying and why so many people are afraid of the same thing happening the smash 4 is of course the melee community and nobody else. They have terrorized the Brawl community for 6 years. There have been on media crusades to make absolutely sure that Brawl gets no public exposure whatsoever. They have done everything in their power to sabotage any success that Brawl could have had.

How many times have Brawl players been booed by Melee people on stream or in tournament?
How many times have Melee commentators made degrading remarks about Brawl on stream?
How many videos of the Melee community are out there with the purpose of taunting the brawl community?
How many Melee players keep bashing Brawl on the forums - many of them have never even played Brawl in the first place!
How come Melee made it to the EVO lineup last year only because Brawl players who don't even play Melee voted for it? The mere thought of Melee doing even remotely the same thing for the Brawl community would be absolutely ridiculous. Doesn't that say EVERYTHING about the so-called 'smash community'?

So how long are we going to continue pretending that the Melee community is not the problem when it evidentely is? Do we need to have Smash 4 destroyed by these terrorists as well until we realize that something needs to be done? The melee community is a cancer cell. The bigger it becomes, the more destructive it is. You either adjust to it [like PM does] or you get kill by it [like Brawl did]. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can look for solutions. But as long as there are escapist dreamers who follow the laughable "#oneunit" idea things will only get worse, not better.



Trying to bring Brawlers and Melee together is like trying to bring together Jews and Nazis.
Why would I want to be brought together with people who think of me as a lower life-form for playing Brawl?
Why would the melee community want to be brought together with second-class humans who play Brawl?

Brawl players aren't passionate about the game they claim to love they liked due to either sucked at everything else or it was the newest smash bros now brawl will be dead with smash 4 comes out it was nothing special to begin with. Melee isn't the problem.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Brawl players aren't passionate about the game they claim to love they liked due to either sucked at everything else or it was the newest smash bros now brawl will be dead with smash 4 comes out it was nothing special to begin with. Melee isn't the problem.

Would you kindly stop proving his point?!

 

[Renji64]

I think you need to remember the exact meaning of the sentence was changed in translation, to be honest.

What "hardcore" mechanics were intentionally added in? L-canceling. Wavedashing was "found" by Sakurai, remember? You don't just "find" Luigi, do you? Almost every "tech" in Melee was a completely unintentional use of something or just an outright glitch Sakurai was too lazy to fix. Sakurai intentionally added nothing to directly appeal to competitives.

Sakurai left things in for players to explore he wasn't lazy. L-Canceling has been in since n64 and is in the offical booklet.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not all Melee players are those terrorists you talk about, some of them simply prefer Melee and accept that the various Smash games might appeal to different people, and I can respect those people.

I hope my post didn't come across as if I were referring to these people. I have quite a couple of friends among the melee players myself.

Would you kindly stop proving his point?!

Doesn't matter. My point has been proven so many times, you can't just make it undone by telling the offenders to shut up.

 

[Clavaat]

@ Clavaat
Your avatar looks like a facemix of The Eleventh Doctor and Dr. Manhattan from watchmen

It's quite disturbing

It's Madman by Mike Allred. One of my favorite comic series

Anyway, this thread seems to have garnered a lot of...interesting posts since I responded. Such as...

Are people really this scared to call the actual problem by its name? The reason why the community is split and why Brawl is supposedly dying and why so many people are afraid of the same thing happening the smash 4 is of course the melee community and nobody else. They have terrorized the Brawl community for 6 years. There have been on media crusades to make absolutely sure that Brawl gets no public exposure whatsoever. They have done everything in their power to sabotage any success that Brawl could have had.

How many times have Brawl players been booed by Melee people on stream or in tournament?
How many times have Melee commentators made degrading remarks about Brawl on stream?
How many videos of the Melee community are out there with the purpose of taunting the brawl community?
How many Melee players keep bashing Brawl on the forums - many of them have never even played Brawl in the first place!
How come Melee made it to the EVO lineup last year only because Brawl players who don't even play Melee voted for it? The mere thought of Melee doing even remotely the same thing for the Brawl community would be absolutely ridiculous. Doesn't that say EVERYTHING about the so-called 'smash community'?

So how long are we going to continue pretending that the Melee community is not the problem when it evidentely is? Do we need to have Smash 4 destroyed by these terrorists as well until we realize that something needs to be done? The melee community is a cancer cell. The bigger it becomes, the more destructive it is. You either adjust to it [like PM does] or you get kill by it [like Brawl did]. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can look for solutions. But as long as there are escapist dreamers who follow the laughable "#oneunit" idea things will only get worse, not better.



Trying to bring Brawlers and Melee together is like trying to bring together Jews and Nazis.
Why would I want to be brought together with people who think of me as a lower life-form for playing Brawl?
Why would the melee community want to be brought together with second-class humans who play Brawl?

This is seriously too extreme of a thought for me to agree with. People were excited for Brawl when it released, and were disappointed with several aspects of it. And that's ok, they're entitled to their opinion. Have some gone out of their way to actually attack the Brawl community? Yes, but the grand majority of competitive players, and I mean real competitive players, do not engage in this kind of thing. They play the games they feel most comfortable competing in, and stick with it. Brawl still has tournaments, and people still compete. That's the only reason there is a "division" at all. Some competitive players picked up Brawl, didn't like it, or felt that they would need to put in too much practice to be good at it from Melee, and went back to Melee. The moderators have responded to the actual attacks, and from what I can tell currently, the boards are pretty clean on both sides.

Smash 4 has yet to be released. Maybe more Melee players will jump to it than we expect, simply looking for something new. People will find AT's, whether it was the dev's intention or not, and whether it will be the ones from Melee or not. It doesn't matter. The game will have its analysis and work for awhile. People will come up with BS tier lists, because they don't fully understand their characters yet. And it will change.

The Melee community took a long time to develop some of the understandings that it has, and Brawl is the same way whether some accept that or not. We just need to be patient and see what happens.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I'm going to put my own two cents into this:

Melee vs. Brawl: While I disagree that Brawl is as an end result "less competitive" than Melee, that was absolutely and maliciously the intent behind many of the decisions in its development. Sakurai was being, for lack of a better comparison, a spoiled brat who was whining that people didn't play with his toys the way he wanted them to. I dislike it for philosophical reasons, basically; you just don't intentionally seek to remove a significant portion of your audience. That's just not done. That said, it's still a good game. It's like Windows 98 - a decent system that's important to a lot of us but stained with a dark development history.

I'm looking forward to Smash 4 largely because he's definitely matured between Brawl's development and now.

Melee "terrorists:" The people who fit that description are just plain embarrassing. But I'm still absolutely disgusted by your choices of comparisons.
If you ask me, though, Brawl has exactly as many "terrorists" if not more, judging from the actual death threats I keep seeing them make.
No matter your opinion on the Melee fandom, don't pretend the Brawl fandom's innocent.

Killing Melee: Just... No. As an author, I know that novelty is the least sustainable of all traits. The fact that it's lasted so long, if you ask me, says something about the general perception of its quality.

 

[HugoBoss]

Solution: None, just let people play the games they want to play and get on with your life. The Smash comuinty is as healthy as any other comunity for a long running series, if not more healthy. I really see no actually "problem" here.

 

[LiteralGrill]

This thread has devolved into exactly the sort of thing it was trying to stop.

Sad isn't it? It's why I made the thread. I sadly figured it would come to this, but at least it:

I have to say, this thread is becoming a perfect example of the point it's trying to prove/fix. If anyone had any doubts that this problem is real, all they have to do is read this thread.

It's true, if you needed proof here it is. We do need to figure out how to fix this problem too, or we risk just repeating the same thing we did before to Smash 4. People don't like to look at it, but we already have 3DS vs Wii U and both games aren't even out yet and it's already started, people saying one is better then the other and already dismissing one game. Maybe the folks who play the older games have learned and will be nice this time around, (that includes Brawl, I'll bet money there will be Brawl players who won't move over, you'll be surprised) but it looks like we're going to cut up our own community without help from people playing the older games, so if they join in we're going to stunt our growth to a CRAZY level.

Brawl players aren't passionate about the game they claim to love they liked due to either sucked at everything else or it was the newest smash bros now brawl will be dead with smash 4 comes out it was nothing special to begin with. Melee isn't the problem.

While Melee itself might not be the problem, what you are saying isn't fair either. These kinds of attitudes are the kind that are causing the problem, slandering a community for no reason is a great way for them to lose enthusiasm. When that community even helps another get to EVO and some people there STILL do this, we have a problem.

Are people really this scared to call the actual problem by its name? The reason why the community is split and why Brawl is supposedly dying and why so many people are afraid of the same thing happening the smash 4 is of course the melee community and nobody else.

It's not JUST those kinds of people, the "Melee Purists" that are the problem, I just talked about that though, we ourselves are even splitting ourselves apart.

However...

They have terrorized the Brawl community for 6 years. There have been on media crusades to make absolutely sure that Brawl gets no public exposure whatsoever. They have done everything in their power to sabotage any success that Brawl could have had.

How many times have Brawl players been booed by Melee people on stream or in tournament?
How many times have Melee commentators made degrading remarks about Brawl on stream?
How many videos of the Melee community are out there with the purpose of taunting the brawl community?
How many Melee players keep bashing Brawl on the forums - many of them have never even played Brawl in the first place!
How come Melee made it to the EVO lineup last year only because Brawl players who don't even play Melee voted for it? The mere thought of Melee doing even remotely the same thing for the Brawl community would be absolutely ridiculous. Doesn't that say EVERYTHING about the so-called 'smash community'?

Yes, all of this has happened. While some of this has been happening less lately (which is admirable) it's still not totally gone. Which is a HUGE problem. At a bare minimum, we gotta stop the mindless bashing. People should be aloud to say they don't LIKE a certain game in the series of Smash Bros, but saying one is BETTER then the other definitively is a problem since it's incredibly subjective and to each person one game is truly the best to them (I'm actually a huge 64 fan). So, perhaps a change in vernacular is all that is needed to start alleviating the problem.

However, you can't JUST claim we have Melee terrorists either, Brawl has done the SAME THING. Yes, they may have been provoked a bit but those people do exist. Plus we have people outside of our competitive community even trying to insult what we do. We also should remember that there aren't THAT many people doing this on both sides, but even the small amount that do hurt us all.

Capps, you are always posing questions and never solutions.

I post a LOT of solutions thank you very much! You need to read more of what I write. But I do tend to just bring things up for discussion that need to be talked about and no one else will make the first post. Somebody has gotta do it.

The fact of the matter is most people push Smash whenever possible but we also push it where it is appropriate as people aren't going to play a game that they don't want to play. In this respect, the community is fairly cohesive. If there are enough people wanting to play several games they will usually be all played at the same event. I haven't heard of anyone going out of their way to host individual games at separate venues. It's really not severe like you make it out to be.

That hasn't happened, but I've seen places where there were Melee players and Brawl players tried to bring stuff to join in and it was VERY diffficult for them to do so. Those kinds of situations happen (even to 64 and PM sometimes).

And Capps, a new game isn't reason enough for most people to pick it up over an existing one. This isn't unique to Smash. People had the same problem with StarCraft and so on. I would have hoped by now after all the time you've spent on this forum you would have realized that arguments go back to having preferences to begin with, and you can't change that. You're not going to be able to convince people that they will have more fun with X over Y via persuasion and that's really what it comes down to.

I never said that people NEED to switch, I don't want people to play things that they hate. But you can have a preference while still being a decent human being about it. A lot of people are completely decent about it, those who aren't however tend to be the most vocal and seen, so newcomers run into them much more often and don't want to stay because of it.

I mentioned before that a lot of it is HOW we put our preferences out, how we word it. None of the games are actually 100% objectively better then another, people enjoy different things. The issue is people seem to believe that it IS objective when it isn't.

 

[LancerStaff]

We weren't necessarily expecting Brawl to be exactly LIKE Melee, just a worthy sequel that satisfies both the casual and competitive groups much like its predecessors. Unfortunately, Brawl leaned TOO far towards one end of the spectrum and I don't think I need to spell it out to anyone on here which spectrum that was

Like I said, expecting it to be something it wouldn't.

Brawl is competitive no doubt (as to what extent is debatable), but the majority of competitive players feel it isn't competitive enough, at least not compared to Melee. Hence the rift.

The majority? Come on now, most people are in favor of Brawl if we take Japan into account. Just look at this thread, it's pretty evenly split.

Brawl players aren't passionate about the game they claim to love they liked due to either sucked at everything else or it was the newest smash bros now brawl will be dead with smash 4 comes out it was nothing special to begin with. Melee isn't the problem.

I'd say more Brawl fans care about the series instead of a singular game, since many Brawl supporters also support Melee just to see their favorite series keep on going.

Sakurai left things in for players to explore he wasn't lazy. L-Canceling has been in since n64 and is in the offical booklet.

...I said L-canceling was intentional. Every other little trickity-trick was a glitch, plain and simple. We don't even understand why L-canceling was included. I'd guess it was supposed to be just a trick for the kids who read the manual who needed in in emergency, and not supposed to be a serious mechanic since it doesn't add any depth to the game.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I don't think we should be compared to other fighters.
The reason why other fighting game communities aren't so split apart is because their games are at least somewhat similar to each other.
Like SF3 and SF4. There are quite a few differences between the two, but you could still approach playing both of them in a somewhat similar fashion. That's not the case with any 2 Smash games. Each Smash game is almost like it's own genre. Comparing Melee to Brawl is like comparing Marvel to Mortal Kombat. OBVIOUSLY there is gonna be tension in both cases, because they are just so radically different on a competitive level. The only difference being that Melee and Brawl are part of the same franchise of games, which is surely where all the heat comes from.

I'll just repeat what a few others have said before me. We can't really expect only 1 game to be played between all of us. I say we should just leave things be as they are. I'll still be playing 64, Melee, PM, and MAYBE Smash 4 no matter what happens.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Mostly people stick to the section of the game they play.
Melee people in the Melee boards.
Brawl people in the Brawl boards...
I occasionally visit the non-smash4 sections and it's like a different forum. New faces, more premium members and mods, older accounts with less posts, nobody likes comments.
I guess you could force them to intermingle by combining the boards so that all threads appear in the same section?

Meh, the people who start up anti brawl anti melee fights are like 12 years old anyway just ignore em.
Though, lets be real, smash bros started with super young pros like Mew2King at 17 and CPU at like 14 I think. These boards are populated by young teens, and the pros used to be young teens. Ya cant control our overflowing youth!

 

[Beatness]

Honestly the only thing that needs to happen to stop the fracture is for melee purists to stop worshipping their wave dashing and accept that the new Smash Bros games are not sequels to melee but rather their own separate identity.

 

[ChikoLad]

Jesus christ, the amount of hair splitting in this thread is unbearable.

Look, you want to know what competitive is?
Well let's whip out a dictionary:

adjective

1. 1.
   relating to or characterized by competition.
   "a competitive sport"
   synonyms:ruthless, merciless, aggressive, fierce;
2. 2.
   as good as or better than others of a comparable nature.
   "a car industry competitive with any in the world"

That's it. And by that definition, Smash is a competitive game.

By DICTIONARY DEFINITION, anyone who plays Smash Bros with the intention of besting another player, is a competitive player. There is no debate there. It doesn't matter what you think. You can't have an opinion on this. Something that is competitive facilitates competition. Someone who is competitive engages in said competition. Every Smash game facilitates competition. Be it with items off or items on. Be it with random stages or a specific set with selection rules involved.

People are so intent with trying to stroke their e-*****, that they form all these imaginary definitions of what a competitive Smash player is, to make them feel like they are better than others (I have had to personally put up with people telling me I am not competitive when I am, even by their imaginary definitions of the word). When in reality, a competitive Smash player is simply someone who plays Smash Bros with the intention of beating another player.

You like to play rounds in the For Glory lobby in Smash 4? You're competitive.

You like to constantly challenge your friend's scores in Home Run Contest? You're competitive.

You like to play Brawl a lot? You're competitive. You like to play Melee a lot? You're competitive. Both games facilitate competition, after all.Let's not forget Smash 64, Project M, Smash 4, and any other derivative of Smash out there.

You only play against CPUs because you have nobody to play with? You're competitive. Yes, that still counts, because it's competing against an intelligent AI. And you still probably want to beat that CPU regardless.

You like to play in tournaments and earn money? You are competitive.

Notice how EVERYTHING I listed fits under the dictionary definition of competitive? Yet they are all different. How? Well, they are simply DIFFERENT KINDS of competitions. Crazy, right?

You know what another kind of competition is? When I am playing with my friends in Super Mario 3D World, and I want to get that gosh darn crown that does absolutely nothing, by scoring more points than them. Or, when I am trying to achieve a really fast time in a level, by being BETTER than other people at playing through the level. It's all competition.

"I am competitive" or "this game is competitive" is not supposed to put anyone or any game on a pedestal either. Just because you are competitive, does not mean you deserve to be facilitated anymore than a person who might want a new story mode with fun or epic character interactions in Smash 4, for example. And a game being better suited for a wider range of competitions does not necessarily make it a better game. I feel Melee facilitates stake-based competition (e.g. tournaments where money can be won or lost) much better than Brawl. However, as a game, I think Brawl is just a lot more fun, artistic, and just overall, a better, bigger experience.

If you like one Smash game over the other, that's perfectly fine. But don't act like you're freaking Jesus for liking a certain game, and that everyone who likes the other games, or, god forbid, PREFERS them, is a demon.

And most importantly, don't try tell the developers to change their vision. They have a vision in mind for Smash 4. You can give feedback, and tell them what could be improved. But if they want to make a laxy daisy party game of Smash, that's perfectly valid. If they want to make the most hardcore and technical game in the history of the universe, they have every right to do that too. Now, it's perfectly fine to tell them that their vision is being a approached the wrong way. But if you are going to criticise THEIR vision, make sure it's actually criticising it based on the fundamental design aspects of that vision, rather than trying to enforce an entirely different vision altogether. Because as a learning game designer myself, I don't want people telling me to make may game in one image when I already have one. If you criticised my methods of getting my image to be the best it can be, you are making a valid criticism, and I will listen to you. But if you told me to change my game into something else ENTIRELY different to what I want it to be, from a fundamental design stand point - well, to be blunt, I'd tell you to **** off and take that fork out of your ***.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Gheb, what you have said contains a lot of truth, but I do not believe it is the totality of things. In truth, at first the community was simply completely surprised by a backlash against Brawl at all, and a dedicated group of trolls who in my opinion by and large did not really play competitive smash came in and made it their mission to attack the Brawl community at every turn. The Melee community was complicit in that, instead of rejecting the trolls, they took their side by and large, but I do not feel like the mainstream Melee community actually initiated the conflict nor did anyone really appreciate how dire the situation was until things had gone way too far. At that point, everyone had already taken a side, the narrative was set, and no one ever wants to back down and admit to being wrong. With the community turned into a perpetual civil war, it was of course all too easy for these same trolls to cause battles to erupt at any time they wanted, drawing what I have no doubt is endless delight in seeing how powerful they were in ruining people's days on the internet. The damage they did to the greater community in this is really incalculable; we would probably be more than double our current size if not for it. The moment of unity we had when the Brawl community did a huge self sacrifice to help get Melee into EVO was a spark for some growth, but I hope everyone can appreciate that we could have been growing like that for the entire past six years had we gotten along the whole time.

That's why I believe things can be better with smash 4 though. If we believe the Melee community not to be malicious but instead just easily misled (the way Brawl was treated did nothing but hurt them too), we can prevent this sort of thing from repeating by just being aware and rejecting the trolls as they will inevitably arise with the new game. The power of a new game and the new blood it will draw is massive, and I believe every legitimate faction of the community stands to benefit massively by it and that cooperation is all of our best strategy going forward. Anyone who makes a determined point to obstruct cooperation clearly does not have the community's interests at heart, and with the wisdom we have gained from the experience of Brawl, we should be able to see that and act appropriately so that we can promote competitive smash as one smash community instead of fall back into the same in-fighting as before. I believe it can happen, and I believe it will happen. We just have to make it happen, and that just requires all of us as individuals to be good actors in the community.

 

[guedes the brawler]

the problem is really simple

Melee has some things, Brawl doesn't. people who liked those things didn't like that Brawl lacked them.


Anyways, i just hope smash 4 is it's own thing, and that it is relatively balanced. wishing for PM level of balance here is silly but... one can still dream

 

[guedes the brawler]

and i think that the "melee community' won't be nowhere as hostile as before because... smash 4 is surely going to be better than brawl competitively, and while not "melee", it will be a step up.

i mean, instead of loading their guns to fire complains, they most likely will go "eh, at least it's not brawl!"

 

[Sucumbio]

I am curious. When Melee first came out, was the game unanimously accepted? Was it all "OMG THIS IS THE BEST THING EVAR!!" ?

And the fact that this thread still devolved into X vs Y (melee vs brawl, melee vs PM, etc. etc ad naseum) tells me that the future of this "community" rests on that issue being resolved once and for all.

Have we considered breaking the games up further than just different boards? I know it seems extreme, and technically the Melee boards have their own "section" or whatever, but I just think so long as all these games sit under one roof, you're going to forever have each game's strongest and yet most infantile posters screaming at each other about which game is better and why.

I mean, look at the vBrawl boards. Dead, really. And I don't even think it was Melee that killed it, it was Project M. Everyone was SO happy to have a game w/o tripping, and to have their favorite low-tiers suddenly able to hang with the rest. They did a job on Brawl, the one they thought Sakurai should have done, and they're proud of the accomplishment. Now all the live streams are of Melee and Project Melee. So maybe Melee can't go away. Maybe the only way for "hardcore" fans of Smash (as in a fighting game with multiple Nintendo Heroes all included as playable characters) to enjoy themselves is to play Melee and Project M.

I guess what I'm saying is that forcing the issue of "you MUST get along" isn't exactly any better than trying to bully one camp over the other. If we were to make some simple changes to the face of the community's existence, like it's started to with the current Home page, maybe it would deter inter-game hate relations, or whatever. If you're a fan of Melee, click Melee on the Forum Selection screen which then leads to the Melee boards (and no other boards). I dunno, I just feel that forcing everyone to get along is futile, and that segregating the games is more beneficial in the long run, even though it seems counter-intuitive due to it being an act of segregation, rather than integration.

And in the strictest of senses, Melee IS an old-ass game but that's irrelevant. Age doesn't mean anything in terms of fun.

 

[HugoBoss]

Honestly the only thing that needs to happen to stop the fracture is for melee purists to stop worshipping their wave dashing and accept that the new Smash Bros games are not sequels to melee but rather their own separate identity.

Or just simply ignore them of they did not listen the first 9001 times.
Like targeting and scapegoating a minority among Super Smash Bros players has ever helped. In fact it is one of the contributing factors to this broken base. Is continuing something that has never worked in the past nor will ever work (We talked to this Melee purist before during Brawl, same exact community) really the best way to stop the fracture?

 

[SmashChu]

This is not how you bring people together.

This is how you create conflict with the purpose of ending a game people still like.

It doesn't matter if people like it. People liked Marvel 2 when it took over. Same for the Street Fighter games. It's that those game's time was over and it was time for something new. Consider the following:
Why is the Smash community the ONLY community who plays an outdated version of the series?
How is it OK when everyone else who cares about the series is playing a newer version but the tournament players are playing the older one?

What I'm saying is not outrageous. It's the norm. The Smash community is the exception to this rule. You should not be focused on the old version when everyone else, those who are "new blood" are all focused on the newer versions.

 

[Saikyoshi]

It doesn't matter if people like it. People liked Marvel 2 when it took over. Same for the Street Fighter games. It's that those game's time was over and it was time for something new. Consider the following:
Why is the Smash community the ONLY community who plays an outdated version of the series?
How is it OK when everyone else who cares about the series is playing a newer version but the tournament players are playing the older one?

What I'm saying is not outrageous. It's the norm. The Smash community is the exception to this rule. You should not be focused on the old version when everyone else, those who are "new blood" are all focused on the newer versions.

You DO realize there's still massive competitive Super Street Fighter II and Marvel vs. Capcom 2 communities, right?

 

[Shiliski]

And most importantly, don't try tell the developers to change their vision. They have a vision in mind for Smash 4. You can give feedback, and tell them what could be improved. But if they want to make a laxy daisy party game of Smash, that's perfectly valid. If they want to make the most hardcore and technical game in the history of the universe, they have every right to do that too. Now, it's perfectly fine to tell them that their vision is being a approached the wrong way. But if you are going to criticise THEIR vision, make sure it's actually criticising it based on the fundamental design aspects of that vision, rather than trying to enforce an entirely different vision altogether. Because as a learning game designer myself, I don't want people telling me to make may game in one image when I already have one. If you criticised my methods of getting my image to be the best it can be, you are making a valid criticism, and I will listen to you. But if you told me to change my game into something else ENTIRELY different to what I want it to be, from a fundamental design stand point - well, to be blunt, I'd tell you to **** off and take that fork out of your ***.

Hey I agree with most of what you said, but I agree with this in particular.

As someone who spent half my life working towards getting the skills to make games, and way too many years to get a college degree that would help me make said video games, it gets really really irritating when some random asshole comes along with their GREAT IDEA that I absolutely must drop everything to go do. Usually these great ideas are actually terrible ideas, but that's not even the most offensive thing about it. There's also the fact that these "idea people" think that their idea (which they've thought about for like 2 seconds) is way more important than all of my countless ideas that I've come up with over years and years could ever be, but even that isn't the most offensive thing.

The most offensive thing is that I've worked my ass off to get the skills and technique that I need to do what I've always wanted to do, and these people who have no sense of commitment suddenly show up with their short sighted "big ideas" expecting, not asking but expecting, that somehow they're entitled to the fruits of my labor. Now when I say "I worked my ass off", I do not mean "I spent a day studying this really hard". I do not mean "I took a 4 year course at some community college".

When I say I worked my ass off I mean that worked for well over TWELVE YEARS, forsaking fun, forsaking the pursuit of friendships, forsaking romance and dating, forsaking actually getting a job, forsaking pretty much anything aside from food and shelter just so I could focus on getting the skills I needed to craft games. And that isn't even all of it, that's just the rough part. That's not counting all the learning and study I was able to do at a more leisurely pace, spread over the majority of my childhood.

I'm not kidding. I looked through some old papers when I was cleaning out my room and I saw something that looked like it was written by a 3rd or 4th grader... but it was my handwriting. I didn't realize it as a kid but looking back at it I have to realize that's pretty hardcore.

People who haven't done that, people who have no idea what that's like, have no right to tell me what to do. I have my own vision, and my own ideas. I don't need anyone else's. Ideas are a dime a dozen and there is no shortage of them, and people who don't really understand that need to get off my back. The industry isn't lacking in people who have ideas. It's lacking in people who can skillfully execute those ideas, and that takes way more dedication than people realize.


Now, I don't know if it's the same with Sakurai or anyone else, but when he says he's hurt his hand from working too hard? I believe it. I absolutely believe it. If he doesn't want to make Melee 2.0, then I certainly feel for the players who loved Melee, but it's his right to make what he wants. That doesn't make him a god, and it doesn't place him above question, but the vast majority of his critics have no idea what they're really talking about.


EDIT:

Responding to the rest of the thread (in an edit to avoid double-posting)-

This thread was pretty nice until the trolls showed up. I think people make the mistake of taking certain people way more seriously than they should. I'm not gonna name names but the same people causing trouble in this thread have also caused trouble in other threads.

At first I didn't see the problem, because I'm honestly just grateful to be in a place where the mods don't go on rampant emotional abuse campaigns (totally a thing that happened elsewhere, hence why I'm not there anymore), but this thread does show a lot of the problem.

The "us vs. them" mentality is exactly what needs to stop, and people take it way too far. I actually like Brawl because of the characters, but I also like Melee.... because of the characters. (I miss Mewtwo) I don't see any reason why one fanbase can't respect the other.

I think a lot of Melee players feel that Brawl is somehow responsible for the fact that they'll never get another Melee, and even if they don't literally think that then they still see Brawl as a symbol of them being "abandoned" by Nintendo. If the division is going to stop, that particular issue needs to be somehow addressed. Project M addresses it a bit by giving players a Melee-like game, but official recognition would probably be nice.

 

[Vkrm]

It doesn't matter if people like it. People liked Marvel 2 when it took over. Same for the Street Fighter games. It's that those game's time was over and it was time for something new. Consider the following:
Why is the Smash community the ONLY community who plays an outdated version of the series?
How is it OK when everyone else who cares about the series is playing a newer version but the tournament players are playing the older one?

What I'm saying is not outrageous. It's the norm. The Smash community is the exception to this rule. You should not be focused on the old version when everyone else, those who are "new blood" are all focused on the newer versions.

pm is the newest game right now. Maybe you should get with the times.

 

[josh bones]

It doesn't matter if people like it. People liked Marvel 2 when it took over. Same for the Street Fighter games. It's that those game's time was over and it was time for something new. Consider the following:
Why is the Smash community the ONLY community who plays an outdated version of the series?
How is it OK when everyone else who cares about the series is playing a newer version but the tournament players are playing the older one?

What I'm saying is not outrageous. It's the norm. The Smash community is the exception to this rule. You should not be focused on the old version when everyone else, those who are "new blood" are all focused on the newer versions.

The diffrence is, those games are GOOOD. do you think people would play marvel if the mechanics were complete trash and there were only 5 characters? being a good game outweighs being recent BY A MILE

 

[ChikoLad]

Hey I agree with most of what you said, but I agree with this in particular.

As someone who spent half my life working towards getting the skills to make games, and way too many years to get a college degree that would help me make said video games, it gets really really irritating when some random ******* comes along with their GREAT IDEA that I absolutely must drop everything to go do. Usually these great ideas are actually terrible ideas, but that's not even the most offensive thing about it. There's also the fact that these "idea people" think that their idea (which they've thought about for like 2 seconds) is way more important than all of my countless ideas that I've come up with over years and years could ever be, but even that isn't the most offensive thing.

The most offensive thing is that I've worked my *** off to get the skills and technique that I need to do what I've always wanted to do, and these people who have no sense of commitment suddenly show up with their short sighted "big ideas" expecting, not asking but expecting, that somehow they're entitled to the fruits of my labor. Now when I say "I worked my *** off", I do not mean "I spent a day studying this really hard". I do not mean "I took a 4 year course at some community college".

When I say I worked my *** off I mean that worked for well over TWELVE YEARS, forsaking fun, forsaking the pursuit of friendships, forsaking romance and dating, forsaking actually getting a job, forsaking pretty much anything aside from food and shelter just so I could focus on getting the skills I needed to craft games. And that isn't even all of it, that's just the rough part. That's not counting all the learning and study I was able to do at a more leisurely pace, spread over the majority of my childhood.

I'm not kidding. I looked through some old papers when I was cleaning out my room and I saw something that looked like it was written by a 3rd or 4th grader... but it was my handwriting. I didn't realize it as a kid but looking back at it I have to realize that's pretty hardcore.

People who haven't done that, people who have no idea what that's like, have no right to tell me what to do. I have my own vision, and my own ideas. I don't need anyone else's. Ideas are a dime a dozen and there is no shortage of them, and people who don't really understand that need to get off my back. The industry isn't lacking in people who have ideas. It's lacking in people who can skillfully execute those ideas, and that takes way more dedication than people realize.


Now, I don't know if it's the same with Sakurai or anyone else, but when he says he's hurt his hand from working too hard? I believe it. I absolutely believe it. If he doesn't want to make Melee 2.0, then I certainly feel for the players who loved Melee, but it's his right to make what he wants. That doesn't make him a god, and it doesn't place him above question, but the vast majority of his critics have no idea what they're really talking about.

Just know that I TOTALLY feel for you on your struggle. Seriously, this is word for word what I have had to put up with. I also have to put up with opposition from my family, who don't understand that video games is a serious industry, and not just something that has to be abandoned past childhood. It's a lifestyle.

----------

There is one other point I want to address that I know I will get **** for, but it needs to be said:

I know that the reason many people make such a big deal out of how "competitively viable" Smash 4 will be, is because of tournaments. Not just the small kind that people set up locally, but the big ones, where a lot of money is at stake. They want a game that is fair and technical enough that high stakes tournaments can be made out of it. This part of the Smash community is almost like a mini-industry in and of itself.

The community built towards such a big e-sports scene through their own blood, sweat, and tears, and I acknowledge and applaud them for that. And I was with those people all the way when Nintendo tried to shut down the Melee streams at EVO last year.

However, if you are honestly pushing for Smash 4, or any game, to be designed so you, the consumer, can generate some form of income off of it in a reliable fashion, you are just being greedy. You had no hand in developing this game in a literal sense, and therefore, you are not entitled to win any money from it for playing it competitively as a career, and therefore, the developers have no obligation to cater to this cause for you. All Smash games were designed to be entertainment products, not tools for other people to create their own business of sorts out of.

Likewise, I do not think Nintendo are obligated in any way to even remotely support professional Smash tournaments. However, I do encourage the idea, and I am glad to see them start doing it with things like the E3 Invitational. I believe this is a privilege for the Smash community though, not something we are entitled to. The Smash community took a game and managed to make an e-sport out of it, but the developers don't have to develop it for these people. And at the end of the day, you guys have Melee for that. Even if Smash 4 isn't reliable for high stakes tournaments, Melee always will be. So, as I said before, if Smash 4 ends up feeling more like a light party game than a legit fighter, so be it. Nothing of value is gained for you guys - but nothing is lost either. Everything goes on as it always has for you guys.

Just note that I am not dissing the efforts of this community, and honestly, I wish I could be a real part of it in some way (Milktea's video really drove that feeling deeply into me when I watched it). And I think it's absolutely fine to be able to make money off of playing the game professionally. However, I do not agree with pushing for games to be designed to cater to e-sports, UNLESS that's part of the games original vision. In the case of every official Smash game, though? No, this has never been the case, they never were designed for e-sports. They just fit that purpose by pure chance. As people say, "Melee is the greatest accident in the history of e-sports". People were simply able to make the game work for e-sports by intuition, and it was mere coincidence that they had the tools to develop the meta game like they did. The developers never intended for that to happen, and didn't go on to try and develop Brawl for that purpose either. They simply wanted to design a game that was both fun, and pure fan service.

The same will be the case for Smash 4 - they clearly are not designing this game for the e-sports crowd, but they are making an effort to make it an engaging fighting game that requires skill and has options - and that may or may not be enough to facilitate e-sports. If it is, awesome. If it isn't, we always have Melee.

Either way, I personally think Smash 4 might be my favourite Smash game when it comes out, and one of my favourites in general, but that's because the game just looks fun and engaging right now. Personally, whether or not the game facilitates e-sports as well as Melee has no bearing on the quality of the game AS A GAME. Hence, I actually think Brawl is a much better game than Melee. I think Melee is much better for e-sports, though.

 

[Morbi]

Are people really this scared to call the actual problem by its name? The reason why the community is split and why Brawl is supposedly dying and why so many people are afraid of the same thing happening the smash 4 is of course the melee community and nobody else. They have terrorized the Brawl community for 6 years. There have been on media crusades to make absolutely sure that Brawl gets no public exposure whatsoever. They have done everything in their power to sabotage any success that Brawl could have had.

How many times have Brawl players been booed by Melee people on stream or in tournament?
How many times have Melee commentators made degrading remarks about Brawl on stream?
How many videos of the Melee community are out there with the purpose of taunting the brawl community?
How many Melee players keep bashing Brawl on the forums - many of them have never even played Brawl in the first place!
How come Melee made it to the EVO lineup last year only because Brawl players who don't even play Melee voted for it? The mere thought of Melee doing even remotely the same thing for the Brawl community would be absolutely ridiculous. Doesn't that say EVERYTHING about the so-called 'smash community'?

So how long are we going to continue pretending that the Melee community is not the problem when it evidentely is? Do we need to have Smash 4 destroyed by these terrorists as well until we realize that something needs to be done? The melee community is a cancer cell. The bigger it becomes, the more destructive it is. You either adjust to it [like PM does] or you get kill by it [like Brawl did]. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can look for solutions. But as long as there are escapist dreamers who follow the laughable "#oneunit" idea things will only get worse, not better.



Trying to bring Brawlers and Melee together is like trying to bring together Jews and Nazis.
Why would I want to be brought together with people who think of me as a lower life-form for playing Brawl?
Why would the melee community want to be brought together with second-class humans who play Brawl?

I just wanted to point out that this is a hasty generalization fallacy; secondly, I would like to point out that ostracizing the entirety of the Melee community is the equivalent of this "evident terrorism." Let us presume that the Melee community is the overt problem; we as a community, should take steps to prevent it from happening once more. Objectively speaking, the damage is already done and we have the ability to prevent history from repeating itself. There is no reason to contribute to a perpetual circle of blame. If only we could evaluate the problem together in a more civil manner, I assure you that results would be much easier to achieve. If we are to unite; however, it is "like trying to bring together Jews and Nazis" we should find a way to make it work. I am sure that we are competent enough to work around the problem. The "one unit" ideal might seem like a joke to you, but it is one of the most effective ways to get results and it would certainly help attenuate some of the hostility. Smash is one franchise, there is not logical reason for a divide.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

How is it OK when everyone else who cares about the series is playing a newer version but the tournament players are playing the older one?

Implying Tourney players don't care about the series.

 

[guedes the brawler]

It doesn't matter if people like it. People liked Marvel 2 when it took over. Same for the Street Fighter games. It's that those game's time was over and it was time for something new. Consider the following:
Why is the Smash community the ONLY community who plays an outdated version of the series?
How is it OK when everyone else who cares about the series is playing a newer version but the tournament players are playing the older one?

What I'm saying is not outrageous. It's the norm. The Smash community is the exception to this rule. You should not be focused on the old version when everyone else, those who are "new blood" are all focused on the newer versions.

because those series are built with the competitive metagame mostly in mind. most don't do a super drastic metagame shift between 2 versions, but that comes form the competitive metagame being just a consequence of smash bros, sicne the causal play is larguely the same

the "move on" mentality always bugged me. Why is it necessary to force yourself to like somethign new? i mean, i love brawl, but i always understood why people would choose Melee instead. it isn't hard, unless you are inciting Flame wars, whcih is honestly the impression i'm getting

 

[guedes the brawler]

So we hate Sakurai? Sounds like a bad plan.

Sakurai's comment about smash being a party game most likely refered to it being a party game like bingo and truth or dare, not as a video game genre.

he already commented plenty of things about other fighters and smashs elements of fighting. Notably once, h commented about "how smash isn't any different from other fighters under a for glory setting" (this was before FG was even a thing, 'im just summarzing)

there aren't any big gameplay changes you get by adding hazards and items. Especially nothing the leaves us with a genre split.

 

[SmashChu]

You DO realize there's still massive competitive Super Street Fighter II and Marvel vs. Capcom 2 communities, right?

That's interesting, because looking at these large events, I don't see either of those games. So how is their community big.

pm is the newest game right now. Maybe you should get with the times.

Project M is a mod, not a full game. It shouldn't be considered in any discussion.

because those series are built with the competitive metagame mostly in mind. most don't do a super drastic metagame shift between 2 versions, but that comes form the competitive metagame being just a consequence of smash bros, sicne the causal play is larguely the same

the "move on" mentality always bugged me. Why is it necessary to force yourself to like somethign new? i mean, i love brawl, but i always understood why people would choose Melee instead. it isn't hard, unless you are inciting Flame wars, whcih is honestly the impression i'm getting

First, Melee wasn't necessarily built to be competitive. In a competitive setting, it relies on exploits of the system. Only L-canceling was intentional. A game being made to be "competitive," doesn't make sense. Starcraft 1 was made to be an easy RTS, but it became the biggest competitive game ever. So some arbitrary "competitive" measure means nothing. Success is measured just on how much people are willing to play it.

I think your question, Why is it necessary to force yourself to like something new? is the wrong framing. I'll refer you to my other post where I asked the following.
Why is the Smash community the ONLY community who plays an outdated version of the series?
How is it OK when everyone else who cares about the series is playing a newer version but the tournament players are playing the older one?

 

[Saikyoshi]

That's interesting, because looking at these large events, I don't see either of those games. So how is their community big.

The primary reason Super Street Fighter II is no longer featured is due to the firestorm between fans of the SNES version and Turbo HD Remix. I'm actually part of the Street Fighter fandom, so I know this.

In fact, the fact that there even is a Turbo HD Remix should tell you something.


I also noticed that you conveniently ignored Josh Bones' post, because it's very relevant to your question.

 

[guedes the brawler]

That's interesting, because looking at these large events, I don't see either of those games. So how is their community big.


Project M is a mod, not a full game. It shouldn't be considered in any discussion.

First, Melee wasn't necessarily built to be competitive. In a competitive setting, it relies on exploits of the system. Only L-canceling was intentional. A game being made to be "competitive," doesn't make sense. Starcraft 1 was made to be an easy RTS, but it became the biggest competitive game ever. So some arbitrary "competitive" measure means nothing. Success is measured just on how much people are willing to play it.

I think your question, Why is it necessary to force yourself to like something new? is the wrong framing. I'll refer you to my other post where I asked the following.
Why is the Smash community the ONLY community who plays an outdated version of the series?
How is it OK when everyone else who cares about the series is playing a newer version but the tournament players are playing the older one?

i think you don't get what i'm saying.

games like street fighter are built with a good amount of high-level play considered. they don't drastically change from version to version, hence why people "move on", because those games change stuff but are all undeniable upgrades

games like smash weren't built for competitive high-level play. So the competitive play of each game will be very different, and it just so happens that melee and Brawl ARE drastically different

Games like SF usually are progressing, and smash too, but smash sin't focusing on high-level play. As far as Casual play goes both series get better and better as time moves on, but high-level smash is only like an afterthough. it just happened.

Melee plays VERY differently from Brawl on a high level, it's only NATURAL that some people didn't like what Brawl is, especially since many had high expectations of Brawl succeeding Melee in gameplay: being "Melee, with a few changes in gameplay and a lot of new stuff" which is what any reasonable person expects out of fighting game sequels.

And brawl had that. for Casual play.



And, you talk as if liking an old game is wrong, as if "not moving on" is wrong. that's just stupid.

 

[Dracometeor]

As a community I hope we can all move on from 64/melee/brawl to all play Smash 4.

Not because I dislike those games, I prefer melee/projectm, however the game is old. It's been 13 years and an old game like melee doesn't draw in as much new blood that we could be getting.

If we want the community to grow and expand then we need to move on. We are not the only fighting game and we have to earn our spot at big tournaments, look at Evo. Splitting the community again with smash 4 will be taking a step backwards.

Our community all came together to get Melee into EVO, we need to be a united front.

If Smash 4 is the worse game ever then we mod it/project m. But if it's viable as a good tournament game, we need to back it 100% as a community.

HD graphics and effects draw bigger crowds and add more hype.

 

[Pyra]

Brawl players aren't passionate about the game they claim to love they liked due to either sucked at everything else or it was the newest smash bros now brawl will be dead with smash 4 comes out it was nothing special to begin with. Melee isn't the problem.

I was going to stay out of this but then you said this and only proved the Gheb's (very extreme) point.
"Brawl players aren't passionate about the game they claim to love"
"sucked at everything else"
"it was nothing special to begin with."

Honestly, it's almost as if you read off a script made for the type of person he was talking about.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

More like, what I'm saying is simply true. He's only proving the point for every one to see.

 

[Big-Cat]

The splitting of the community is only an issue if you make it an issue. People are going to prefer one game or the other and that's okay.

People should just agree to disagree and recognize that we have subcomunities under the Smash umbrella.