Our Community And The Future Of Smash

[Renji64]

I was going to stay out of this but then you said this and only proved the Gheb's (very extreme) point.
"Brawl players aren't passionate about the game they claim to love"
"sucked at everything else"
"it was nothing special to begin with."

Honestly, it's almost as if you read off a script made for the type of person he was talking about.

I just keep it real.

 

[BogartSmash]

I haven't been here long but here is what I feel. This community will grow tremendously in the next couple of months. With the release of the Smash Bros Documentary is has brought a substantial amount of hype about Smash Brothers. It is bringing in different types of people from different games to join in on the success of this community. When Smash 4 releases it will bring in more people than you can imagine and everyone will be on the topic of how good this game is and will be. I hope everyone from Melee,64,Project M will become one but it won't happen that way. Not everyone is good at making changes. There will always been a bit of conflict about each game.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I just keep it real.

I'm going to ask you a simple question. I see you post a lot of silly stuff, and your posts in this topic presuming the motivations of the Brawl community when very clearly you are not a part of said community are perhaps your most outlandish yet. Do you honestly believe all of this stuff you post, and if so, what are your motivations here? What are you trying to accomplish with what you post on a routine basis? You post a lot so clearly you're not just a casual user expressing his opinion; you must have a very real goal. If you don't actually believe most of what you post but are just getting a kick out of it, please stop as it's long past being amusing to anyone. If you really do believe it, please explain what your goal is in what you post as I'm just not seeing what end you're working toward here. Who wins when you say that Brawl players don't care about the game they play?

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

@ItsRainingGravy and a few others:

You guys rock. No, seriously.

After reading your posts, you've definitely opened up my eyes to how caustic I've been, and for that, I sincerely apologize. I tend to let my emotions get the best of me, especially when I feel as though my opinions have been looked down on, but this thread has shown me that compromise IS possible. There are competitive players who will adapt, and 'casual' players who have respect for the more hardcore crowd. You've given me some faith in this community.

So thanks guys. If we had more people like you, this community would be an oasis of sanity in a sea of caustic gaming forums.

In the end though, I kind of agree to have everyone agree to disagree and stay away from each other. If you dislike Smash 4 by this point, I honestly thing your time would be better spent in other forums, letting those of us who are excited for the new Smash to talk amongst ourselves. Nothing personal or against you, but by this point, if you dislike Sm4sh, I highly doubt anything will be changing.

 

[Manty]

It doesn't matter if people like it. People liked Marvel 2 when it took over. Same for the Street Fighter games. It's that those game's time was over and it was time for something new. Consider the following:
Why is the Smash community the ONLY community who plays an outdated version of the series?
How is it OK when everyone else who cares about the series is playing a newer version but the tournament players are playing the older one?

I see this argument somewhat often, but this comparison to traditional fighters just doesn't work here. When you look at why things are as they are, Smash Bros and traditional fighters are almost total opposites in this regard. People don't move on to a new game just because it's new, and they won't play a game they don't like.

Other fighting games prioritize having solid mechanics because that's their main draw, it's what keeps players coming back for more, and for the most part it's all they really have. Smash Bros isn't just a fighting game, it's a celebration of Nintendo and is first and foremost meant to be a casual experience, its main appeal is more a sum of its parts compared to traditional fighters. High level play and the communities that have spawned around other games have generally been embraced and supported when it comes to traditional fighters, historically that hasn't been the case with Smash Bros. Even at the design level things like combos (which were a glitch in SF originally) became appropriated as a legitimate mechanic in future installments, while wave dashing is removed because it doesn't fit the direction Sakurai wants to take the series.

To elaborate further, the last point and the first one are related. Installments in the SF series are different from each other and people don't always like the mechanical changes that get made, but the reason those players move on is because new games still remain true to the core of what makes SF what it is. For the few things that change, there are also a lot of things that largely stay the same. A lot of people may not have been satisfied with Brawl as a competitive game, but it still does what it set out to and remains true to the core of Smash. Melee sort of just happened and picked up a strong competitive following along the way, but the nuances of the mechanics that made it so appealing as a competitive game (at least as far as Sakurai is concerned) are not a part of Smash's core.

Inversely solid mechanics are what traditional fighters are all about, and it's natural that the players who are the most in tune with those mechanics are valued. Those players can transition from game to game easier because there is no massive shift like a Melee -> Brawl type transition. If SF4 was released with nerfed stun on all grounded attacks that left you punishable on hit, jumping attacks that did massive stun, no reliable anti airs, and a broken block mechanic that didn't let you alternate between high and low in a block string, nobody would play it. In addition to being shallow and a massive downgrade compared to previous SF titles, the game would cease to play anything like an SF game.

I'm not taking shots at Brawl here or trying to call it a shallow game (it has its own merits), my point is that Smash and these other games are focused on totally different things. I've said this before, but people stuck with SF4 because it has merit and it's worthy as a Street Fighter title, not because it has Street Fighter in the title. Smash isn't like that, as while the sequels do stay true to themselves as Smash Bros games, they do not do the same as competitive fighters. After Melee it was Sakurai's call on what to do next, and he chose to stick with his original intent by taking the game in the opposite direction.

Smash Bros and other fighters are not in the same boat at all. Telling Melee players to move on is like telling Marvel players to move on to SF because there will never be an MvC4. The games are just too different. If people choose not to move on it's not because they can't adapt or get with the times, it's because they feel they have nothing to move on to.

Also, a few examples:

Street Fighter X Tekken - This game wasn't going to replace SF4 but it did have a lot of hype behind it.The game died out shortly after release, but it wasn't just because of the whole disc locked content issue. It earned the nickname Street Fighter X Timeout for a reason.

King of Fighters XII - Not a very good game, at all. KoF XIII does a complete 180 and now it's bigger than ever with 2 strong Evo showings attached to it.

BlazBlue - Not necessarily bad, but initially Guilty Gear players were looking to it as a spiritual successor. It didn't deliver on that so a lot of them went back to GG, and now BB has its own community.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

I don't see anything proven. You have one line as evidence as to that Melee was supposed to be taken seriously. The man's very game-making ideals have always favored the "silent majority," as he puts it.

A little late, but I found another little quote for you:

"And so the vision for the overall balance of the game in Smash Bros Melee, it was sort of more focused towards more hardcore players. Then when it came around to making Brawl, this was a game that was targeting a Wii audience where there were a lot of beginner players, so it sort of leaned a little bit more in that direction"

Again, if Sakurai's words are not enough to convince you, I don't think anything short of him walking into your doorsteps and flat out debating this with you will be sufficient enough proof for you.

The majority? Come on now, most people are in favor of Brawl if we take Japan into account. Just look at this thread, it's pretty evenly split.

If that were the case Brawl would be at Evo. But it's not. Brawl Tourney's would get a comparable amount of views. But they don't. My point still stands: the majority of competitive Smash players prefer Melee. Numbers don't lie.

I'm only taking English-speaking territories into account by the way. I don't give a flying crap about Japan. I'd just as soon change my outlook based on Cuba's opinion on the matter.

 

[ferioku]

My personal opinion is that the people who are bashing the new Smash Bros, are causing quite a lot of upsets through out the internet. A lot of people are worrying whether or not they should buy the new smash bros because "someone" told them the game sucks. It's pretty unfair if you ask me, I just want this game to be its own thing, not Melee, not Brawl. There's only a few issues that need to be addressed in my honest opinion and it will be a perfect game.

 

[SmashChu]

I see this argument somewhat often, but this comparison to traditional fighters just doesn't work here. When you look at why things are as they are, Smash Bros and traditional fighters are almost total opposites in this regard. People don't move on to a new game just because it's new, and they won't play a game they don't like.

I don't have to finish this post because you missed the mark in the first paragraph.
Do you see Halo 2 played competitive anymore?
What about Starcraft 1
Or Dota
Or Call of Duty: Modern Warfare

No. You see the newest version. "B-but it was because Brawl was so bad." Please. Every game has it's issues and every game ios going to have something different. The whole issue is solely the community not wanting to move on. Not wanting to try something new and different.

If that were the case Brawl would be at Evo. But it's not. Brawl Tourney's would get a comparable amount of views. But they don't. My point still stands: the majority of competitive Smash players prefer Melee. Numbers don't lie.

Up until recently, Brawl tournaments were consistently bigger and the largest Smash tournaments every up until EVO 13 was Brawl. Had Melee not been in EVO, it would have stayed that way.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Witness the amazing SmashChu! Notice how SmashChu blatantly ignores every post that actually answers his question! Gaze in wonder at his impenetrable confirmation bias and refusal to accept valid viewpoints by restating them to sound incompetent!

If I sound like I'm announcing a circus animal, it's because every single one of you is acting like circus animals. Even those of you I agree with. Even me.

I still support this thread being locked, because almost every single post here is bashing games you don't personally like, just like we've done thousands of times since 2008.

Yes, I mean "you" as in the reader. Hello there, reader. Now go away.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Witness the amazing SmashChu! Notice how SmashChu blatantly ignores every post that actually answers his question! Gaze in wonder at his impenetrable confirmation bias and refusal to accept valid viewpoints by restating them to sound incompetent!

I still support this thread being locked, because almost every single post here is bashing games you don't personally like, just like we've done thousands of times since 2008.

Yes, I mean "you" as in the reader. Hello there, reader. Now go away.

But I was told there would be tacos...

 

[mimgrim]

Witness the amazing SmashChu! Notice how SmashChu blatantly ignores every post that actually answers his question! Gaze in wonder at his impenetrable confirmation bias and refusal to accept valid viewpoints by restating them to sound incompetent!

If I sound like I'm announcing a circus animal, it's because every single one of you is acting like circus animals. Even those of you I agree with. Even me.

I still support this thread being locked, because almost every single post here is bashing games you don't personally like, just like we've done thousands of times since 2008.

Yes, I mean "you" as in the reader. Hello there, reader. Now go away.

How dare a thread exists that you dislike. It must be burned to the ground!

If you don't like a thread then don't post in it and ignore it. Don't push it to get locked just because you dislike it. The mods have already said they are keeping an eye on it, they will decide when it gets too bad, not you.

Sheesh.

 

[Shiliski]

If Brawl was a logical successor to Melee (as in, slow Evolution instead of rapid Revolution), then it would make sense for people to move on from Melee and go to Brawl, because Brawl would be the "latest version" of Melee.

The way it stands, Brawl is not a logical successor to Melee and has a ton of gameplay changes, vet cuts, and other differences that make it nothing like Melee. This was intentional, but it's also a Revolution instead of an Evolution.

Melee players did not move on to Brawl because Brawl is not Melee 2.0. It's a completely different game. Melee and Brawl are about as similar as Street Fighter is to Mortal Kombat. You don't see SF players ditching older SF games to go play the latest MK, do you? Some might, but most SF players play SF because they enjoy SF, and it doesn't make sense for them to switch to a game that is in the same genre but plays totally different.

If you want to know why Smash clings to older versions of the game, compare it to a series like BlazBlue, which aside from balance changes and slightly different mechanics doesn't really change very much at all. Same characters, plus some new ones, and that's about it. Small differences, not massive jumps.

So the idea that Brawl should somehow "replace" Melee is kindof silly. Brawl is a nice game in of itself for a variety of reasons, and Melee is also a nice game in of itself, but in the end they are very different from each other.

 

[Saikyoshi]

How dare a thread exists that you dislike. It must be burned to the ground!

If you don't like a thread then don't post in it and ignore it. Don't push it to get locked just because you dislike it. The mods have already said they are keeping an eye on it, they will decide when it gets too bad, not you.

Sheesh.

I'm pretty sure there are rules specifically against game-bashing threads and for good reason. Try to tell me that this isn't one.

I'm pushing for it to be locked because it's downright toxic. We're all collectively yelling for our game and going "LA LA LA NOT LISTENING" to everyone else.

If Brawl was a logical successor to Melee (as in, slow Evolution instead of rapid Revolution), then it would make sense for people to move on from Melee and go to Brawl, because Brawl would be the "latest version" of Melee.

The way it stands, Brawl is not a logical successor to Melee and has a ton of gameplay changes, vet cuts, and other differences that make it nothing like Melee. This was intentional, but it's also a Revolution instead of an Evolution.

Melee players did not move on to Brawl because Brawl is not Melee 2.0. It's a completely different game. Melee and Brawl are about as similar as Street Fighter is to Mortal Kombat. You don't see SF players ditching older SF games to go play the latest MK, do you? Some might, but most SF players play SF because they enjoy SF, and it doesn't make sense for them to switch to a game that is in the same genre but plays totally different.

If you want to know why Smash clings to older versions of the game, compare it to a series like BlazBlue, which aside from balance changes and slightly different mechanics doesn't really change very much at all. Same characters, plus some new ones, and that's about it. Small differences, not massive jumps.

So the idea that Brawl should somehow "replace" Melee is kindof silly. Brawl is a nice game in of itself for a variety of reasons, and Melee is also a nice game in of itself, but in the end they are very different from each other.

He's just ignored everyone who said the same thing so far. And a lot of people have said the same thing.

 

[Shiliski]

He's just ignored everyone who said the same thing so far. And a lot of people have said the same thing.

No matter how many times he ignores it, it's still true. Not to mention it's not his business what other people choose to play. Look at how old Chess is, for crying out loud, and it still has a massive competitive scene.


But in this thread everyone's talking and no one's listening. You aren't going to stop having a divide until you stop pointing fingers and blaming other people. If you want a united community, the tribal pre-historic "Us vs. Them" mindset needs to go. Stop thinking about the Melee community vs. the Brawl community and start thinking about the Smash community.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

No matter how many times he ignores it, it's still true. Not to mention it's not his business what other people choose to play. Look at how old Chess is, for crying out loud, and it still has a massive competitive scene.


But in this thread everyone's talking and no one's listening. You aren't going to stop having a divide until you stop pointing fingers and blaming other people. If you want a united community, the tribal pre-historic "Us vs. Them" mindset needs to go. Stop thinking about the Melee community vs. the Brawl community and start thinking about the Smash community.

Live and let live, right? I just want people to not poison the toxic infant Sm4sh scene is all. If you don't like it, that's fine, just don't buy it. Please don't go around telling everyone how much it sucks and how people are terrible for buying it. Brawl had the same issue, which is why I think that it isn't as widely accepted as it could be. So please, don't ruin Sm4sh. Melee will always be there. Project M will always be there, so please don't try to sabotage this game simply because it doesn't live up to your standards. If it truly is a terrible game, if is truly a noncompetitive game, then we need only let the inevitable results show that and not incessant preaching and complaining.

 

[Manty]

I don't have to finish this post because you missed the mark in the first paragraph.

I didn't miss anything, I read the whole post and I responded accordingly.

It doesn't matter if people like it. People liked Marvel 2 when it took over. Same for the Street Fighter games. It's that those game's time was over and it was time for something new.

This is what you said. You're making two statements here. The first is a conclusion, and the second is the reasoning behind your actual argument. You're using the conclusion itself and acting as if it validates your argument, it doesn't. You're ignoring all of the contributing factors to these circumstances and only focusing on the end result.

Why is the Smash community the ONLY community who plays an outdated version of the series?

This is the actual question that you asked, and this is exactly what my post answered. By saying that you ignored most of my post, it looks like you're just ignoring it because it challenges your view point.

"B-but it was because Brawl was so bad." Please. Every game has it's issues and every game is going to have something different.

I didn't even say this... In fact, I said the exact opposite.

I'm not taking shots at Brawl here or trying to call it a shallow game (it has its own merits)

The whole issue is solely the community not wanting to move on. Not wanting to try something new and different.

This is not true, and I explained in detail why that is the case. You did not counter anything I said in my post, and as far as I can tell you didn't even read it.

 

[LancerStaff]

A little late, but I found another little quote for you:

"And so the vision for the overall balance of the game in Smash Bros Melee, it was sort of more focused towards more hardcore players. Then when it came around to making Brawl, this was a game that was targeting a Wii audience where there were a lot of beginner players, so it sort of leaned a little bit more in that direction"

Again, if Sakurai's words are not enough to convince you, I don't think anything short of him walking into your doorsteps and flat out debating this with you will be sufficient enough proof for you.



If that were the case Brawl would be at Evo. But it's not. Brawl Tourney's would get a comparable amount of views. But they don't. My point still stands: the majority of competitive Smash players prefer Melee. Numbers don't lie.

I'm only taking English-speaking territories into account by the way. I don't give a flying crap about Japan. I'd just as soon change my outlook based on Cuba's opinion on the matter.

"And so the vision for the overall balance of the game in Smash Bros Melee, it was sort of more focused towards more hardcore players. Then when it came around to making Brawl, this was a game that was targeting a Wii audience where there were a lot of beginner players, so it sort of leaned a little bit more in that direction"

Sort of? Either it was, or wasn't. Sakurai destroyed any credibility of that statement with his own uncertainty. I'd guess he's saying it unintentionally favored a select group he didn't want to target so directly.

There are more in support of Brawl over Melee, but most Brawl over Melee people would rather have some kind of Smash there instead of none. It's simply easier to get Melee in because there's more supporters combined and less people complaining. People are compromising. And I'd say Japan means alot to the guy who making the game, don't you? Since Brawl vs Melee is definitely in Brawl's favor with Japan in account, Sakurai is building SSB4 off of Brawl because it's more popular competitively.

 

[---]

Kinda of ironic a thread that asks for people to get together as a community only further divides people. Anyway instead of trolling the thread in an attempt to get it locked, please just PM one of the staff instead, as it makes you no better than those flaming and will warrant warnings/infractions.



I would suggest not worrying so much. Once the Smash 4 Competitive Forum opens up 64/Melee/Brawl talk shall generally be considered Off Topic and be warned/infracted on the spot, especially to those who wish to complain and post flame bait (posting in a part of the forum for a game you dislike is just asking for trouble). The uncivil and vocal minority of the community shall only be ostracized by it in the end.

Like the game that you like, report and then ignore trolls/flame bait, and stay civil everyone.