Optimal sheik: Rushdown or camping?

[soap]

recently i just never can decide how i want to play when a match starts. Sit back charge needles, punish stuff. Or rush in start zoning and pressuring.

what do u guys think she is better at?

and list the general advantages and disadvantages of both approaches

obviously matchup dependant, but for the sake of this discussion i'll say its for the fox matchup cuz that is where i have the found the most versatility in styles of opponent foxes. and there is no definitive thing that works like needles and bairs on jiggs

i know most sheiks tend to be defensive, can u guys give me your general approach to matches and what u look for to punish?

same thing with offensively oriented players

i know the answer is a mix of both styles adapting to the player, and i don't have a problem with this after the first or second stock and im in the flow of the game.

But which one to start matches off with im always unsure. Wait them out and read their style? or rush them instantly start trying to pressure mistakes before they get a read on you?

if possible list your general approach to opening matches against the top tier and floaties

 

[stingers]

an optimal shiek would needle camp for the % lead then ledgecamp for the next 8 minutes...

 

[soap]

an optimal shiek would needle camp for the % lead then ledgecamp for the next 8 minutes...

m2ks sheik did this to me for like 2 hours of friendlies

i eventually found ways around even that though. U can get that ledge from her or trick her up, it is just tedious and dangerous for u.

I wouldn't want to rely on ledgecamping though. u can get burned both ways with that, although i admit it is very effective at people not used to dealing with it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I just camp for hit on space animals everyone and then try to death grab combo or tech chase them.

The obvious disadvantage is when people are good at rushdown against Sheik, or simply superior campers.

More subtle disadvantages are that you wind up being heavily reliant on them making the first move, which often creates situations where you can "hope" for moves and throw out a zoning tool (F-tilt, etc.) and have it whiff. And then you get punished. Fortunately, with decent DI (not going to say "good") you can avoid being put into the situation of being death ***** for camping imperfectly, but it is nonetheless an issue. Moreover, there is a tendency to brickwall in a minimalist fashion (ie. stick to a few moves) and not adjust to the more subtle changes in their approach. There is also a tendency to not take openings and instead opt to continue to hold defense, rather than shift.

The obvious advantage is that if they lack those qualities, you can beat people really, really easily.

Unfortunately, there is an increasing amount of people who have them.

 

[stingers]

i read you can't grab the ledge against an optimal (frame perfect) shiek stalling with up b...but that could be wrong.

 

[soap]

u can definitely steal her edge, its quite easy.

its harder when they mix in retreating ledgehop fair regrabs in between the upb's.

 

[MarkLoo]

you cant hit her but you can taker her ledge

 

[soap]

I just camp for hit on space animals everyone and then try to death grab combo or tech chase them.

The obvious disadvantage is when people are good at rushdown against Sheik, or simply superior campers.

More subtle disadvantages are that you wind up being heavily reliant on them making the first move, which often creates situations where you can "hope" for moves and throw out a zoning tool (F-tilt, etc.) and have it whiff. And then you get punished. Fortunately, with decent DI (not going to say "good") you can avoid being put into the situation of being death ***** for camping imperfectly, but it is nonetheless an issue. Moreover, there is a tendency to brickwall in a minimalist fashion (ie. stick to a few moves) and not adjust to the more subtle changes in their approach. There is also a tendency to not take openings and instead opt to continue to hold defense, rather than shift.

The obvious advantage is that if they lack those qualities, you can beat people really, really easily.

Unfortunately, there is an increasing amount of people who have them.

good post. The subtle stuff u listed is so true for me. Your mindset is huge.

now that i think about it, eventually no matter what i usually try and rushdown really good aggro or aggressive foxes

If u trap them first u don't have to worry about their real good offense. and trying to wait them out gets u laser damage.

the disadvantages of the rushdown is that u can be outspaced and dash danced around obviously, or they can rush and intercept u sometimes

but ive been minimizing the openings in my offense by eliminating lag with autocancels and just better planned approaches.

I think i'll continue to work on offensive trapping for now.

i'll wait to see what others have to say also

 

[Devil Ray]

ehhh, against fox it's hard to tell what works and what doesn't. fox's combos basically work at any percent, which sucks hardcore. and the nair-shine approach is better than sheik's approach. and if they don't approach, they just laser camp...which is even gayer.

i think defensive is better, i just try to space fox's moves, nothing too fancy. sheik's priority and range are better, and fox basically needs to shine you for a chance of getting those death combos.

and how can you needle camp fox or falco??? i don't think that'll ever work. running away and not approach is possible, but i don't think you can needle camp spacies.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You time the full set of needles to hit Fox when he lands from lasering.

 

[Teczer0]

I think its match up/player dependent.

I tend to lean toward aggressive though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Fox and Sheik are good enough characters, with a good variety of options, that allow them to play pretty much any style they want. Obviously, then, styles become very interactive, and adaptation becomes so crucial.

The same applies largely for Falco, Peach, Marth, Falcon, and Jigglypuff.

 

[rhan]

I'm usually a campy player, but when I play Sheik I just feel like I don't need to camp and tend to be overly aggressive than my other 2 characters. With Young Link I camp projectiles until you get close enough so I can hit and run some more. Samus is mainly missle, missle, missle, d-smash, more missle. But Sheik is like falling needle, Ftilt, Fair. Even while the other player is in sheild insted of grabbing I pressure that shield. Usually mix it up between jabs, Ftilts, and Dtilts.

I enjoy playing Sheik as an aggresser than a camper. She's just amazing as an aggresser because you can mix up a bunch of different moves and have them work together. Playing aggressive with any character is mainly on how quick you can read and react to opponents movements. Otherwise camping is best used when you are trying to be relaxed and safe.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i think campy sheik is a billion times better than a rushdown. sheik's stationary ground game (tilts, dsmash, grab) combined with defensive aerials (sh back fair) leave her with more options in all situations than approaching. also, she has the best projectile in the game, forcing even falco to approach her.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't know if trying to camp Falco is all that good of an idea, even if Sheik can slightly outpace him in a projectile war (which I'm not sure is true; I'd want to see that against Lambchops before I believed it).

But approaching him is also difficult.

Hmmmm...

 

[soap]

lambchops has the best lasers in the world

thats not really fair

against falco i aggresively poke him lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i remember m2k vs zhu, m2k stood and needled zhu until zhu approached. you can also platform camp with needles.

 

[soap]

that only works if u get the first needle in

if u get hit with a laser they can sh laser again before u can needle

they can also shoot your needle to get the frame lead and start lasering u

if theirs platforms they can waveland drop down laser around your standing needle.

zhu just never had that done to him and got impatient

the right way to camp falco is like u said use platforms, and use multiple standing needles that u craftily stored up while jumping around

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i thought needles went through lasers, not traded?

 

[soap]

no needles and lasers cancel each other out, they both disappear

thats why multiple are good

 

[Teczer0]

i think campy sheik is a billion times better than a rushdown. sheik's stationary ground game (tilts, dsmash, grab) combined with defensive aerials (sh back fair) leave her with more options in all situations than approaching. also, she has the best projectile in the game, forcing even falco to approach her.

I think if you play a character that you can easily force to approach you, sheik is quite a force to deal with.

But yea I don't think I would try to outcamp Falco. It usually doesn't end well when sheik is locked in her shield .

I think being the aggressor is better in the sheik vs falco match up.

 

[lloDownedu74]

In the first stock, I usually just try to start a combo with one of the 'surefire moves,' such as ftilt, dtilt, fair, but is usually a grab. Depending on their character, I either rush in, avoiding projectiles and messing up their timing with simple things like wavedashing an jumping until i get the grab, or camp with needles until they get close enough for me to grab. Once sheik starts a combo, she controls the flow of the match. If I can't get a grab, then the next best thing for me to do is use one of the other moves. I prefer rushing in to start the combo (because I don't like waiting for them to messup/get close xD), but sometimes I have to camp until they approach

 

[KirbyKaze]

I hide under platforms a lot.

 

[Velox]

so wait, this game is all about the choice of either running down your opponent or camping?

 

[Nihonjin]

*snip*

Why choose between two extremes?

 

[soap]

Why choose between two extremes?

i don't play at either extreme, but i was kinda curious what people thought she was better at most of the time, not that u have to stick with one mode the whole time

 

[`DNS`]

I think its match up/player dependent.

I tend to lean toward aggressive though.

Completely OT but:
TEC0 --- MODERATOR

just noticed :D

 

[KirbyKaze]

Why choose between two extremes?

You're right that there is no reason to do so.

However, everyone has a preference. And it's kind of cool to see the pros and cons of them

 

[soap]

tec is a **** mod

 

[Teczer0]

LOL I love you guys .

Nihonjin makes like the rapest posts ever. <3333

 

[Alukard]

i really dont know wat to do vs campy foxes =[

i feel like if i dont kill him with the grab i get i will lose ... its sooo hard ... then again ... i play against the best campy fox ... >_> EFFIN jesus

 

[KirbyKaze]

Scare him.

 

[RaynEX]

Defensive Shek is better by far.

 

[Nekurbis86]

act stupid agressive(but dont be) in the beginning but just focus on spacing and their reactions.

 

[Aidoony]

Rushdown your foe

 

[hectohertz]

wow that 5 year bump