Optimal Clinic Conditions?

[DrGrimReaper]

*Note* these are questions directed at time-weathered smashers with massive amounts of experience under their wing. *Side Note* Whether or not certain stages are legal in tourny's should not affect your responses, simply state whether or not it's legal but do no omit any stages Doc does well on!*Note*

What are optimal fighting conditions for Dr. Mario?


What are his top 5 stages?


& what stages is Doc most susceptible to dying?


Who are his top 13 worst enemies?


Top 13 easiest enemies?​

I tried searching through forums & guides & google but nothing came up. So I thought I'd post this to generate some newer cutting edge thoughts on the matter.

What makes Doc SHINE?​

 

[St. Viers]

I'd say that his best stages are:

1. Final Destination
2. Corneria
3. Fountain of Dreams
*not sure about 4th and 5th, maybe Pokemon Stadium...

Doc dies easily on (IMO) Battlefield, Dreamland (due to his horrible horizantal recovery, he recovers worse here than many other characters)

People I know he is disadvantaged by:
Marth
Sheik
Captain Falcon
good Foxes

People he has advantage over (IMO):
Link
Kirby
Pikachu
Pichu
Mewtwo
Bowser

 

[DrGrimReaper]

C'mon peoples!! There can't only be -one- opinion on these questions!!

You were all so helpful in my other thread! >_>
post your edumacated responses in this one ^_^

 

[Mr.Jaskolski]

I got this, First the best stages for Doc I would say everything except for Dreamland because of the wind can blow you backwhen you recover note: this isnt including all banned stages in Tourney fighting. I like three platforms because I can slide across them it fakes people out.

Doc's hardest match ups Marth for sure, Peach, Jiggly, Floaty type really Samus is floaty too. All the fast fallers Fox,Falco,Falcon,Sheik, the low tier characters Young link, Pika, Pichu,
are all characters that get juggled even heavey characters get juggled. If you can chain grab the fast fallers that will give you and edge when you play them. The up throw and Down throw will bounce them back to you for another grab. So basically all you have to watch out for is the floaty chars.

 

[Hylian]

First off..I don't have much time..I will go more in-depth into this later.

What are optimal fighting conditions for Dr. Mario?

Ones in which you exude confidence and knowledge of the match up.

What are his top 5 stages?

Top 5 stages? Peoples answers are going to be varied due to preference. Doc doesn't really have to many bad stages. All the randoms are fine...Dreamland is the worst you can get out of them but it's not horrible.

& what stages is Doc most susceptible to dying?

Well...stages with smaller borders= doc dying faster..but that is true of everyone.

Who are his top 13 worst enemies?

I can't give you top 13 lol. But I will say some.

Marth
Samus
Fox
Falcon

 

[Khaine]

right.

of course, the answers the these questions vary from person to person, so yeah o.o

Doc wins when you know what you're doing in the present matchup & situation. but this is true of everyone. if you spend half the game going 'OMGWTF, what the crap am i meant to do?' then you lose. but this is true of everyone.

so yeah, optimal clinic conditions = you being comfortable and confident in what you're doing.

personally, my prefered matchups are:

fox
falco
captain falcon
peach
shiek
Doctor Mario

etc.

basically, i'm comfortable playing anyone that isnt marth o.o

i have issues playing marth, as he has a giant stick of priority, with a ****ing tipper attached.

my more favoured matchups, are pretty much the rest of high tier. primarily because i can CG falcon, falco, and fox to hell and back, and they're relatively easy to edgegaurd.

i'm fine with shiek, because, well, i am :/

likewise with peach.

and i'm fine playing Doc, because i'm confident in my ability with the ditto. i know how Doc works pretty **** well.

basically, i've spent the majority of my smashing days playing against high tier, both casually and in tournements.

as for stages, so long as i have enough room to manuever, i'm good. so FD,PS,DL64 etc.

i'm also fond of FoD.

-x-

 

[DrGrimReaper]

I see 105 views yet only 5 replies.

>_> <_< >_<

MORE RESPONSES !!

Everyone who plays Doc should have something to say in this, just from your own experience, also, it doesn't even have to be Doc's absolute worst/easiest opponents moreover the people Doc fairs better/worse against.

SO POST MORE REPLIES!

btw, Khaine, I'm fond of FoD, it's like the prettiest stage in the whole game :-P

 

[Dogysamich]

I dont really feel like going through all this, but I kinda wanna hear this from a doc/samus palyer.

I can't give you top 13 lol. But I will say some.
Samus

Now dont get me wrong, I'm not calling a bluff or anything, but i've ironically never played a ridiculously sick samus player 1v1.

I honestly dont see how that's a HARD match up. I know it's not like it's cake, cause samus has some nasty moves, but it seems like everytime I play a samus, decent or not, nothing really works for them.

. . . now before i open my mouth more and sound ********, I just want your opinion as to why you think this is hard. I'd really like to know if im missing something here. (and i'm pretty sure i am)

___

As for the other stuff

- I honestly think the best situation for Doc is not the one for doc, but for you. And that situation is you have to be better than the other person.

Now that sounds pretty textbook, but if you look at the characters above and around doc on any tier list, they ALL have some bread'n'butter gimmicks that help they in a pinch. Doc only real "gimmick" is crushing recoveries with a cape.

So the way I see it, more-often-then-not I'm in the hole goin against somebody. I have to either beat their range, their speed, their power, or their mobility to beat them. And the BEST way to do that is if you're better than the other person.

- Top 5 Stages?

Well, Final Destination and Corneria are top 2 easy, but doc really comes down to preference in favorite stages. Although platforms **** his combos, if you're the 1-shot doc (a.k.a. you like to get a tiny hit and get people away with f.airs) You dont really care much for platforms, it might help YOU to get away from stuff.

So the last 3 stages, imo, are up to opinion.

1) I personally like Kirby64 cause I see it everyday, so I feel at home. (my main training buddy is a ijggs/peach/ganon player, go figure). Although the sides are big, forcing you to make big recoveries; the stage itself is long enough to where you can pillrush. Hell, you can pill camp on the stage as long as you stay mobile.

2) Pokemon stadium is also an aight stadium, but you have to watch who you take there. Specifically Samus (yeah Hylian, this is one place where I dont like Samus, lol)
*Pokemon stadium is ok as long as it stays basic,
*and it's OK if it goes grass.
*I really dont mind it when it goes water, although it adds platforms at different heights, so some characters abuse that
*I really hate fire and earth cause they both cut out your big open area. Fire is BAD against marth.
*Earth is pretty bad against him too, but not as bad. Makes people go sit in corners and whatnot, lol.

3) Last stage I like is Kongo Jungle, but that place is a double edged sword. I like it because again, the main stage is big enough to pill rush, and the platforms are high enough to not crush your combos.
- However, those same platforms are high enough for people to do combos late in your life (i.e. falco), so you still have to be caution of them.
- You also have to watch sweetspotting. Although you CAN come through the stage, it's not always the best option for you, but it works wonders for characters like jiggs. peach, and some others.
- And last but not least, that barrel is broken. Gotta know the timing to get it on rotations or you might get caught in it at a very bad time

____

As for BAD doc stages, the only stage I say is bad for Doc is Mute City. Small platform as the base that you cant really pillrush on. No ledges to grab onto to save yourself. Nowhere to run after you get a kill (and doc has no safe air stalling options)

The stage is just evil, imo.

Other than that, i really think Doc's worse stages are only your opponents best stages, excluding FD. I think the ONLY character you wouldnt want to play on FD would be Falco, and even then it's ok. You just have to be preparted to cape SHB shots. That'll really throw off Falco's timing.

 

[Khaine]

Dogysamich:

i play against an insane samus regularly, so heres my two cents.

samus isnt a horrible matchup, no.

buts it is a bit queer.

Samus can CC most anything. and she's so god**** floaty, you've only a slim chance of comboing her. and when you do, its only gonna be something mediocre (sp?).

she has the recovery of a crazy person.

and she can camp like a mofo!

but like i say, its not a terribly hard matchup, its just wierd.

you just need to be able to adapt your playstyle.


-x-

 

[Hylian]

I dont really feel like going through all this, but I kinda wanna hear this from a doc/samus palyer.


Now dont get me wrong, I'm not calling a bluff or anything, but i've ironically never played a ridiculously sick samus player 1v1.

I honestly dont see how that's a HARD match up. I know it's not like it's cake, cause samus has some nasty moves, but it seems like everytime I play a samus, decent or not, nothing really works for them.

. . . now before i open my mouth more and sound ********, I just want your opinion as to why you think this is hard. I'd really like to know if im missing something here. (and i'm pretty sure i am)

Don't worry it's definitly arguable and I can see where you are coming from.

I think Samus has an advantage vs Doc but I don't think she counters him.

The only thing I think doc really has on samus is projectiles...He beats her in the projectile game in this match-up. It's much eaiser to approach with pills then missles IMO.

Other then that samus has better edgeguarding, better recovery, better range, is really hard for a doc to kill, has much better spacing...

It is hard to play a good samus with Doc. Considering Samus overall has more priority then Doc and longer range with better spacing hitting her is hard. You always have to be approaching with pills and samus is faster then Doc with her Wavedash. Her ftilt keeps him away and makes it hard for Doc to grab samus. She can pressure pretty well with missles considering for the most part the doc doesn't want to cape but he will probably have pills out anyways so missles are not as useful as in some other match-ups(IC's for example).

Samus is also hard to combo..uair can combo her moderatly but samus is floaty and heavy..a very good combination for living. Her recovery is unpredicatble while doc's is easy to edgeguard. The stages she is good on she gains advantages and in this match-up she has alot more then Doc does. I wouldn't play a samus on Stadium, Final D, or Dreamland.

I hope you understand and if you don't feel free to say and I can go more in-depth or you can just tell me why you disagree with me .

 

[Dogysamich]

Oh I wanna go in depth, but I dont really have any experience with samus.

I've gone against a few aight ones, but it really didnt seem like much of a problem to me.

To my knowledge, the average samus player wants to shoot missles and chargeshots, meaning they're not looking to get in close with you. I've also never come across one that opted to use their ranged attacked (tilts, smassh, sexkick) over staying long range with their projectiles.

I'd have to take a stab in the dark and say a samus who knows doc would look to stay in the space range rather than projectile range, but doesnt that still put Samus dangerously close to Doc?

___

As for comboing and edgeguarding, i can safely say f*ck that. Yeah samus is hard to combo, and yeah samus is hard to edgeguard, i wont argue with you there. I tend to kinda just give stay by the ledge and be ready to back up or cape a charge shot if it comes.

____

For the stages, i've ironically never played samus on PS, but i know it's nasty. Heck, I OK enough with samus to be able to do the repeater missle, and some of the other easier stuff, so I can see the advantage of playing on PS.

Hell, the only form of PS you're really safe from repeaters is the left half of fire, and ground.

--

but please, go more in depth. I guarentee you know more about this than I do, and I like to know what kinda stuff I could get into before it happens.

 

[Hylian]

Oh I wanna go in depth, but I dont really have any experience with samus.

I've gone against a few aight ones, but it really didnt seem like much of a problem to me.

To my knowledge, the average samus player wants to shoot missles and chargeshots, meaning they're not looking to get in close with you. I've also never come across one that opted to use their ranged attacked (tilts, smassh, sexkick) over staying long range with their projectiles.

You are mistaken in your knowledge..samus has more priority and range then doc..she wants to be in close with him..You can't just spam missles and win. And almost every single good samus will use their tilts and arieals rather then just stay long distance. Fox and falco can do that better then samus can..she cannot manuver well enough to stay away from people.

Samus however is usually played defensively and she is good at it. CC and tilts.

I'd have to take a stab in the dark and say a samus who knows doc would look to stay in the space range rather than projectile range, but doesnt that still put Samus dangerously close to Doc?

You missed. Try putting doc dangerously close to samus..not the other way around.

but please, go more in depth. I guarentee you know more about this than I do, and I like to know what kinda stuff I could get into before it happens.

Well like I said...Samus just out classes Doc. Better range spacing and recovery with better movement. Hard to combo and kill. Try playing a good samus and you will understand this..try going to a tournament and asking for the best samus player there...

 

[DrGrimReaper]

Mind y'all but I feel the last 4-5posts have ventured slightly off-topic.

The Samus vs. Doc conversations can go here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=99006

Now, as to the posts I've received so far, I'm very thankful for them however for future replies to the topic question, I think we should put the legality of stages aside and just focus on what stages Doc does well on, which may or may not include stages that are not legal in tourneis, because it's not like -everyone- on these forums are tourney-smashers.

 

[Hylian]

Stages are hard. Look at it like this..Doc doesn't do horrible on any stage or shine on any stage. He doesn't have any moves that give him advantages on stages...Marth for example is amazing on Yoshi's story because of his Range...Samus and Peach do really well on Dreamland64 because of how long they can live there...Doc doesn't have any qualitys like that to make him favor any certain stage.

 

[Cyphus]

As a general rule Doc's best levels are FD and Corneria(and almost always the best bets against characters he has a slight advantage against)...but i think u have the wrong idea Grim.

Picking stages to win w/ doc isn't about giving doc advantages that the oponent won't have (thats impossible w/ high tiers), but picking stages where the oponent doesn't have all their advantages.

Take IceClimbers to Brinstar, take Falco to MuteCity, take Jigs to Yoshi, etc...It just makes alot more sense to take away from better characters, than trying to catch up to them(which won't happen ^__^)


Disadvantaged:
Sheik, Peach, Fox, Falco, Capt, Jigs, Marth, Luigi

Fair: characters:
Link, Samus, Ganon, Ice, Mario, Zelda, Y.Link

Advantaged:
Roy, Pikachu, Mr.G&W, Mewtwo, Ness, Kirby, Yoshi, DK, Bowser, Pichu

 

[jamminjohn]

I'd rather be in FD than anywhere else but that's just not possible is it? Corneria is great but I have trouble chain grabbing there. It's great because the bgrab is powerful there because of the close walls. Stages with platforms are cool because it's easy to full jump fair onto one from the bottom level. So IMO:
Stages:
Final Destination, Corneria, Pokemon Stadium, Dreamland 64, Fountain
Worst Stage: Battlefield

Character Advantages/Disadvantages:
It's all about being used to playing against which characters. I play a lot of Falcons, space animals and sheiks so I do better against them than against Samus or even Pikachu.

WHAT MAKES DOC SHINE!?
Bair, Fair and cape!

Thanks.

 

[DrGrimReaper]

i see this 'round these forum boards quite a bit 'space animals' who are the space animals???? ice climbers? ness? yoshi/dk? who?

 

[peachori]

space animals = falco/fox

 

[alcheato]

IMO Doc's worst neutral stage is Battlefield. Some people say DL64 but at least you have plenty of room to spill spam and combo, and the wind screws your opponent's recovery as well. On Battlefield the platforms make it hard to get a good pill spam going and they allow your opponent too many ways to escape combos.

As far as his best stages go, I'd say FD, Corneria, and then Yoshi's Story or Pokemon Stadium.
YS- While there isn't much room to combo on Yoshi's Story, the ledge helps you cape sweet spotters more easily and the stage is short enough for some easy bthrow kills.
PS -On Pokemon Stadium the sides are deceptively small, there's plenty of room to combo and spam pills, and the two nicely spaced platforms make it easier to evade your opponent. The transformations of the stage can hurt Doc depending on the matchup, but overall it's a decent stage.

As far as worst matchups go, Marth, Peach, Ganon, Jiggly Puff, Samus, and Luigi give me the hardest time.
Ganon- has some huge hitboxes and can send Doc off stage with just a few hits. His range and weight make him tough to KO.
Marth - has much greater range than Doc and can **** him with utilt and fair. He can also destroy Doc's pills with ease while approaching.
Luigi - has greater range and priority on almost every attack. His floatiness(I don't care if it's not a word!) makes it so he can escape combos pretty easilly.
Samus - can escape most combos because of her floatiness. Her CC game can make it tough to approach her.
Peach - can dsmash Doc right out of most approaches. Her floatiness allows her escape combos and she can combo Doc pretty well.
Jiggly Puff- can Wall of Pain Doc to hell and back. Jiggs can gimp your recovery like no other and her floatiness can make her tough to combo.

Most other matchups are pretty even or give Doc an advantage IMO.

 

[DrGrimReaper]

Wow, that was by far the best response to my post yet! Everyone else, I want you to detail your responses like Alcheato's.

GJ & thx man!

 

[azianraven]

i can already tell every1 has alredy gave more than there 2cents on this thread but i just wanna put out there that space animals + FD = mass potential ****. doc can easily **** space animals w/ CG and a folo up w/ a uair - dsmash. i always liked space animals cuz my friends who i play regularly play space animals. the worst matchup u can get is probably shiek. even then its still not that mch of a disadvantage. shiek can easily **** docs recovery w/ her bair and fair n needles. but once doc gets goin on a shiek theres rly no stopping him. CG to fsmash around 60-70% is **** against shiek. marth is a real pain to play against. cuz his edgeguard vs doc = hell on earth. the fmash, dtilt, and all his aerials can just completely **** doc of the edge. however pills are ur friend against marth altho marth can cancel em w/ his neutral a, pills will hit every now n then n annoy the marth. n once the marth loses his concentration its rly ez to wreck havoc on him. uair n bair just destroy marth. plus at 95-108% dthrow to fair just ****. as for stages FD has alotta space, room for CG n pills. yoshis story n FoD can b good if u r exceptionally good at edgeguarding. ur worst stage i guess for most wuld b kirby64. but since i play on that stg alot its comfortable for me. after its mostly a matter of preference. against most of the lower teirs doc can beat em relatively ez. n just a final note every1 hates the cape!!!! its the cheapest move and can **** many a recovery. + it just makes ur opponent angry. givin u an advantage.

 

[DrGrimReaper]

From now on I'll just be commenting on further responses to my original question, & from all the responses put together I'll synthesize a list of doc's worst / best enemies&stages and after each one I'll put all the reasons why that is that you all generate!

azianraven, that was a fairly informative post as well! If anything else crosses your mind please post again! (but next time, organize it -juuusssstt- a little bit so it's easier to navigate!)

thx again y'all!

 

[azianraven]

lol grimreaper ill remember to do that next time.

one thing i think everyone should know about is doc's recovery.

Coming back to edge with doc is no easy task in fact its rather difficult.
so to set an example as to how to recovery from a certain situation.
Ex. fox hits u w/ a forward smash.

so wat do u do?

1) DI (directional influence) up by pressing straight up on the analog stick so that you will get rid of your horizontal death so that way u end up high n closer to the stage.
2) use pills as u come back to hopefully prevent your from edgeguarding you properly but not too many so that u miss your chance to grab the edge and die =P
NOTE: DO NOT USE THE CAPE TO RECOVER!!! it will only bring you down and the best thing it will do is just reflect ne projectile coming at you. that is its sole usefulness off the edge.

#s 3 and 4 are for 2 different situations

3) sweetspot the up-b so that your opponent cannot hit you can u make it safely. possibly even hitting them w/ ur up-b
4) if your opponent ahs grabbed the edge. use PTP (perfect tornado press) because your opponent may believe you will just use your up-b to grab on the edge. however if u use PTP your opponent will leave the edge and it can give you your chance to recover w/ ur up-b safely.
5) once you have successfully grab the edge u can do a # of things. you can either ledgehop dair,uair, or fair given the situation. personally the dair is great for me and is a nice 10-19% of damage. if your opponent is not close enough then u may just jump or roll on the stage or possibly ledgedash.
although these options may seem limited. its as good as it gets for doc.

 

[magicmanfk]

also remember you can do a quick waveland back onto the stage and shield right after the frames of invincibility end from hanging. That's pretty useful, especially against characters such as marth where being on the edge is scary. You can even wavedash to grab if they are unsuspecting of it.

 

[Bob Money]

worst stage in general battle field but cape is super good on it so is dash attack
doc sucks vs a simple edge hog
um best stage perhaps story fd maybe
worst matchup for me personally
Link fox
best match up falco gannon peach

although some would say marth is a bad match up he can be for doc but doc like alot of chaacters can beat marth on the ground obviously few if any chars can contest marth in the air
doc has a hard time killing samus but can disturb samus recovery enough to not be totally stumped

 

[DrGrimReaper]

I can see why Link gives you a hard time. Espsecially Germ's link. His combo vid was the first one I saw, and if I had to deal w/ that Link would be my worst match up, too. :-o

 

[Supreme Pie Ninja]

To add a bit to what Azian said earlier, when you get hit off of the stage, you can use your cape before anything else to slow you down, giving your double jump more momentum back to the stage. If you can full Tornado as well, you can use it sparingly in your recoveries too.

For example, if you're going for a sweetspot on the ledge, your opponent (depending on their edge game) will, more often than not, go for an edgehog. Now, remember how an edgehog generally works:

> Grab Ledge before the recovering opponent gets there.
> Ledge recover, to prevent damage from your opponent's Up+B with invincibility frames.

So when you're coming back to the edge (after your double jump and such) pull out a tornado right before you get there, which is usually when you're horizontal to the ledge). Your opponent most likely has the ledge recovery part of the edgehog in muscle memory, so they will almost always use their ledge recovery then, giving you enough time to sweetspot with your Up+B.

Note: This method works just as well (if not better in some cases) with the Cape. Just don't use the Cape if you have already used it in that recovery (ie: momentum slowing).

Sorta went off topic there...but hope it helps nonetheless

 

[Kashakunaki]

I'd like to clarify the edge recovery discussion in here, as what Azian said is rather incorrect and awkward.

First of all do not, do not, DI "up." That is, unless you like dieing. DI up AND toward the stage (diagonolly[that looks so weird]).

Secondly, the first cape sends you slight up and to the right, so as a matter of fact, DO use it, but only once. I also can't think of a situation where you wouldn't want to PTP (Unless you are exhausted and came make it back without it, lol). The Perfect Tornado Press can be used not only to gain the tiniest amount of vertical distance and some horizontal distance but can as well be used as a stall move.

I think this is the order you want to recover.

*You get hit*
1. Direct the influence of your flight (DI) up AND toward the stage
2. Cape (ONCE!)
3. Perfect Tornado Press (During this DI toward the stage)
4. Double Jump ASAP after the PTP
5. Sweet spot your Up+B

Obviously there are variations that exist and should be used, depending on what the situation demands. For example, if a super hyper, knee hungry Captain Falcon is DDing around just waiting to jump off and knee you, double jump and throw some pills. You can throw in a PTP when you are close to the stage to throw off his timing and then sweet spot for safety, etc. Just analyze the situation and recognize what you have to do to recover in the most safet manner possible.

By the way, this might just me, but it seems like you are being an *** GrimReaper. People are giving advice and helping out and you are acting awfully demanding. Cut some slack for us, ya?

 

[azianraven]

sry if i sounded awkward >_> but wat i meant was that di up unless ur gettin hit by an u-smash or ne move that kills from above. Usually just ding up shud save u such as gettin hit by foxs or marths f-smash.

i also want to bring up docs f-smash
although it may seem utterly pathetic due to its horrible range. its actually a very consistent and powerful smash. some situations in can be used in is when ur opponents misses a shffl and lands in front of u. if u strike in time the payoff is quite good.
i actually use docs f-smash more frequently then his u-smash. plus its a good finish to CGing