Only One Smash Game Will Finish On Sunday At Evo 2015

[Kotastic]

I hope it's Brawl

 

[Jon_14]

Meanwhile PM, 64, and Brawl fans are all just sitting on the sidelines reading this debate.

 

[Lukingordex]

do you call I WANT ****ING 2 STOCKS WELL I WANT 3
FD SHOULD BE BANNED BECAUSE OF BLINDING LIGHTS
BATTLE FIELD LEDGES ARE GAY
DIDDY KONG IS THE BEST
NO GRENIJA
NO DIDDY
a good community

wat

 

[ShortcutButton]

Oh no...

Mr. Wizard, although it probably can't be solved and was the right thing to do regarding the schedule of EVO as a whole, has created perhaps the biggest rift of all time between smash games.

 

[byebye]

I hope it's Melee. nothing against Smash4. and if you trace my post history I am usually pro-Smash4.

But Melee is still our flagship title of the series in competitive space. Melee has a good place now in FGC and putting Smash4 on Sunday increases the risk of having an Apex situation on Evo.

Smash4's time will come for sure. But this year it has to be Melee on Sunday.

 

[dahuterschuter]

Unless they're going to get a big bag of gold from Nintendo, it's going to be Melee on the big stage since that's the most popular both among the live crowds and the streams. Apex showed that rather decisively.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

It better be Melee tbh. Melee is faster, less campy, more competitive, more impressive, and most importantly, more entertaining to watch. If we want the FGC to take us seriously, it's best we play Melee.

The majority of the FGC will never take us seriously and a game being competitive only relies on how big a scene is not on the skill ceiling nor the techs so that said Melee is more competitive due to the bigger competitive player base. Nintendo is sponsoring the event so Smash 4 will most likely to be the one to take center stage which would make the most sense to do.

 

[Smolder]

Inb4 they hit us with the ultimate curve-ball and say Project M will be the one to make the main stage. =P

 

[Kai_64]

Eh... Customs kinda ruined sm4sh evo for me. So I don't really care.

 

[MarthZ]

Both community has their fair share of good and bad. I agree the 2 stock vs 3 stock, Diddy controversies and some crazed fans are a harm in our community.

But you can't deny, that you do have some bad apples here and there. May I remind you Leffen incident.

Also, some of the vocal minority take it personally(and by personally, I mean insults you) if you say another Smash game is better than Melee. I mean, it comes in opinions, but... you shall be damned if you think that Smash 64/Brawl/Sm4sh is a better game then Melee.

i agree fully when saying that people jump on other people if they say one game is better than melee and no game really is better than the other it all goes down to people opinions and my opinion on the smash 4 is that its a fair 50/50 between the people that just wanna play the game with a ruleset without arguing and the people that always want to argue about tier lists and rules and the leffen incident was years ago when the internet wasn't as mature as it is now

 

[Eureka]

the leffen incident was years ago when the internet wasn't as mature as it is now

Internet? Mature? I don't think so. Unless it became 20XX when I wasn't looking.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

Honestly, I'm beginning to wonder if Sonic the Hedgehog's fandom is any worse than this one. Super Smash Bros. Melee —admit/like it or not—is a root cause of it.

 

[PCHU]

Meanwhile PM, 64, and Brawl fans are all just sitting on the sidelines reading this debate.

I like all of the Smash games (even Brawl), but I still think it should be Melee on the big stage.
I understand Smash 4 is a new game and I know it needs to be given a chance, but a lot of people love watching Melee simply because it's visually appealing, not graphic-wise, but it's fast-paced and there's usually a lot more actual conflict during the fight.

That's not to say Smash 4 is without its amazing plays, of course, but it's less noticeable because the game actively limits what you're "allowed" to do vs what you could do with more IASA frames/hitstun/options in general; most of the best things I've seen in tournament from Smash 4 are extremely hard reads, jab/aerial lock combos, and absurdly low% KOs.
There most definitely is real effort being put into it, yes, and in context it really is hype, but comparatively speaking, it's generally not as elaborate and many discredit the game because of it.

 

[OnettGirl]

So smash 4 or melee might get the main stage. But who cares what game's on main stage? Both will still be streamed so you can still watch both of them. Melee tournaments can be plenty hype without the need for main stage. I guess i'm an odd minority that really doesn't care either way and just wants to be able to watch them. While I prefer to play smash 4 I like watching and respect both games. So in a way it's kinda nice that they are both on separate days so I can watch both live.

 

[Champ Gold]

For the love of everything that os right in the world have Smash 4 dominate Saturday.

Putting it on Sunday tight before Marvel or Street Fighter will cause problems. Atlesst Saturday, it won't cause any problems for other fighters due to stream monsters

 

[stancosmos]

Gee, i sure hope this brings on a thoughtful and unbiased discussion.

 

[QWA]

This should be very simple. Apex 2015 showed that there is clearly a higher interest in competitive Melee than in competitive Smash 4. It had a higher number of viewers despite Melee's top 8 having the worst time slot because of the lost day. That'a plain, simple, and unbiased (the numbers don't lie).

 

[Johnknight1]

Honest opinion: They should bump up Marvel 3 a day and push whatever Smash game has top 8 on Saturday to Sunday (aka Melee).

Marvel 3 is basically dead and might not even get half the attendance numbers of Smash Wii U or Melee, and unlike Mortal Kombat, Guilty Gear Xrd, Killer Instinct, and Tekken (all games that don't draw anywhere near as many viewers or entrants as Smash Wii U or Melee), there is no corporate or pot backing of Marvel 3.

It sucks for me to say that since to be honest Marvel 3 had the most exciting top 8 the last 3 or 4 years at EVO (meanwhile, the last 2 years the top 8 of Ultra have been bloody boring).

I'm "old school" in that I think whatever gets the most views or the most entrants should be the main event. Clearly Ultra is number 1 in entrants. For viewership though, it's probably a toss up between Ultra and Melee. Melee topped it the last 2 years and it also easily topped Smash Wii U interest at APEX and most other majors (especially on the West Coast, which is where EVO is at). Having said that, Ultra probably will have some big Capcom announcement attached to it, if we go by viewership, Ultra seems like a best fit for last. But overall Melee, Ultra, and Smash Wii U are the top 3 games in those regards.

I think overall if they were going for optimal viewership, they'd go Tekken = Guilty Gear > Mortal Kombat > Smash Wii U > Melee > Ultra.

If they're doing it by attendance, then IDK the order other than it'd end with Ultra on top and Melee and Smash Wii U as 2nd or 3rd (they're pretty close entrant-wise right now).

Edit: My personal opinion as someone going to EVO: I'm only really there for Melee, so I want Melee to finish on Saturday so us Melee fans can hype the hell out of the venue and make Sunday look like a second class event (and Sunday can be a more easy going day), but obviously theoretically Melee going the day before makes it seem a "step down" from other games even though it really isn't (except Ultra.. which Ultra is gonna get Marvel 3'd in a sense sooner or later).

Edit 2: Overall I hate this false dichotomy that "Smash Bros. games are the same and must be lumped together." Melee and Smash 4 had a 19% player crossover at APEX. It will likely be lower at EVO 2015, maybe as low as 15%. That's less crossover than any 2 random FGC games at EVO 2015 that aren't Smash Wii U/Melee and *insert some non-Smash title*.

I mean, EVO doesn't do that to Guilty Gear and Persona (which share the same devs) or Marvel and Street Fighter (which share the same devs). Yet they do it with Melee and Smash Wii U, which are about as different as those 2 aforementioned pairings with 2 very different audiences.

It it utterly confusing.

 

[Charey]

No one was expecting both Melee and Smash 4 to both be at EVO at all, so it's fine if one of them finishes on Saturday. Smash4 is my main game but I don't think it makes any difference which game gets what day.

As Smash fans we just need to make sure we show up both days to watch both of the finals.

 

[Johnknight1]

From the perspective of someone who mostly plays non smash fighters, this is a good thing. Whether this community can admit it or not, ALL Smash games take longer to run in tournament than other fighters.

Not true at all. Melee the last 2 years has had one of the quickest run Top 8's. 2 years ago it finished about half an hour earlier than the slot it was allotted, and last year Melee finished 40 minutes late even though it started 60 minutes late. That's 20 minutes of gained time.

Smash 4 has had quite a few run time issues though, especially with customs and all the should-be banned moving stages that are legal in its' ruleset (IDK why Smash 4 players are so keen on copying Brawl's rules over the 64/Melee/PM rules when Brawl has by far the least interest of the 4). So Smash 4 is kind of a "Wild card" in regards to time. Smash 4 could finish roughly on time, or they could go very late.

No one was expecting both Melee and Smash 4 to both be at EVO at all

Like within 2 months of the EVO announcement most everyone expected that lol. Melee interest just kept growing, and after that January and February Melee had, Melee drawing over 50k viewers six times after EVO (which the only traditional FGC game was able to do that was Ultra), and Melee having less than 20% crossover with Smash 4 at APEX, it was impossible to say "no" to Melee if you want maximum revenue.

Add in that BBCP died out due to awful patches, and KOF13 just died, and it was an easy decision.

 

[Lizalfos]

My prediction: Mr. Wiz is putting Smash 4 on main stage b/c that is what Nintendo is paying for. It is a business decision, don't get so emotional over it.

 

[BaPr]

Can't believe we lost good fighting games just to host 2 smash games and persona.

What fightng games?

 

[SSBM_HypnoToad]

The FGC didn't take Melee seriously, over the 14 years of its existence and plenty of time on main stage.

What makes you think that Melee getting main stage this year will change anything?

In my observations, Sm4sh shares more sensibilities with FGC games. The neutral game, footsies, transitions, mind-games, etc. are very reminiscent of SF4.

Melee is more comparable to SF3, which had been easily phased out by SF4, which will be phased out by SF5. (The natural progression of fighting game communities) Meanwhile Melee has been kicking and screaming in defiance to the advancement of time, tech, and subsequent entries)

If the FGC will acknowledge any Smash, it's more likely going to be Sm4sh. The tendency to hold on to a 14 great old entry with childish, bitterness towards Sakurai and the new titles, selfishly wanting a Melee style Smash when that clearly won't happen again, is one reason why the FGC won't take Smash seriously, and views us Smash players as immature children.

Is logical for EVO to NOT push Sm4sh to the back burner. It would please Nintendo (sponsor and all), it would help Sm4sh grow (being the newer game while Melee is so old and established that it doesn't need any more biased publicity), and would solidify the Sm4sh ruleset worldwide.

In the long run, there are more benefits to Smash, as a franchise, to help Sm4sh along by giving it the spotlight this year and seeing how it does. Especially since Melee lacks the accessibility to bring in half as many new players as Sm4sh does. Players who will become fans of the franchise, ensuring that the Smash franchise will keep going.

This is coming from logic and business seems, not bias.

Totally disagree. Melee takes more skill, it will be taken more seriously.

 

[Bazkip]

I'm just on the PM side, eating popcorn

Yo share some of that.

 

[ECHOnce]

"You watched us fall without extending help...cheered against us, even...but now, the tables have turned. And we shall be the ones to watch your fall."

Still waiting for misc. PMBR/DT to tweet this out, donning a V for Vendetta mask lmao.
EDIT: all said in good fun, I'll remove if asked.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I still have no idea why people are complaining it would be terrible if one game was on one day or another, sorry but I am in a situation of, "I don't care who is on what day and why it even matters that much."

do you call I WANT ****ING 2 STOCKS WELL I WANT 3
FD SHOULD BE BANNED BECAUSE OF BLINDING LIGHTS
BATTLE FIELD LEDGES ARE GAY
DIDDY KONG IS THE BEST
NO GRENIJA
NO DIDDY
a good community

You really aren't doing yourself favors by pulling a stunt like this.

People complain about stuff and there are ruleset issues like with every single other smash game.

Smash 4 isn't some single game that has had the issue, only reason Melee isn't doing that anymore is because no one tries to readd old stages anymore and sticks to what APEX did.

Sorry man but there are TONS of inconsistencies in your post. Lets first talk about your comparisons to Street Fighter. First, you say Smash 4 is more like Street Fighter 4 than Melee because "neutral game, footsies, transitions, mind games". I'm sorry, but what are you even rambling about? Smash 4 does not have a more interesting or varied neutral game than Melee. In Melee, you have more safe options in neutral than you do in Smash 4. You can do more things. In Street Fighter IV, you have more options. In Smash 4, you are actually pretty severely limited on what you can or can't do in the neutral game. For some characters they literally have an amount of moves that you can count on one hand that are fit for playing footsies with. Smash 4 is nothing like other fighting games in this regard.

Second, you say Melee is more like Street Fighter 3. I also think that this isn't necessarily correct. First of all, it depends on what version of SF3 (or SF4 for that matter) that you're talking about, but I'm going to go ahead and assume you mean Third Strike. Third Strike is a more precise game in general than Street Fighter IV, and it supports somewhat more aggressive play in the parry system, in that you can be aggressive in your defense. But Street Fighter IV has an abundance of more frame tight links than Third Strike, and some matchups are even more punishing than common matchups in Third Strike were. Melee is no more similar to one than the other, in fact, Melee is a lot more comparable to games like Blazblue, where the goal is to try to get your opponent stuck on the defensive, and in the corner, where you can exploit them with long block strings and whittle down their defenses and convert into long combos from it.

I promise you, Smash 4 is no more relatable than Melee to most other fighting game fanbases. In fact, it's highly arguable that it's even less so because there isn't nearly as much execution skill needed, which is itself a somewhat contentious part of fighting games in general, with the majority supporting input skill being a major facet of the game. At the very bare minimum, people who play games like BB, UNIEL, Street Fighter, etc can respect the precision and input speed needed in a game like Melee. It's harder to appreciate it in Smash 4 because the precision comes more from timing and not necessarily speed for the most part.

Also, lol, Smash 4 being at Evo has nothing to do with the Super Smash Bros. franchise's ability to continue. Smash Bros has existed without tournament support well over a decade. It is established.

EDIT: Also, SFIV has NOT replaced SF3. There are still Third Strike tournaments. There are still SF2 Turbo tournaments. It was on the main stage at Evo last year. You don't know much about these communities.

I'm hit or miss with this.

I agree trying to compare fighters with each other has a lot of differences. I don't think it would be applicable in many cases when they cater to and value different skill sets.

Saying that fighters tech skill is a main stay of the genre isn't something I would say is necessarily true even more so with how the times have changed.

That might have been a thing for major focus before, but I don't see that anymore and more emphasis on focusing on accessibility for people to gradually get into it over just a giant brick wall a lot of fighters tend to do, more so in the past.

I think this is why with debates like DOTA vs League and why the player count is that much higher with games like League, because it doesn't overwhelm you on day 1.

 

[Dr.Lulz]

How is this even a debate? It's so obvious which game get's which day.
Smash 4 takes longer and is still a new tourney format so they need more time to run it, so it gets Sunday. Also, Nintendo supports sm4sh and Mr wizard wants money sooo..... Yeah. melee saturday, sm4sh sunday

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

How is this even a debate? It's so obvious which game get's which day.
Smash 4 takes longer and is still a new tourney format so they need more time to run it, so it gets Sunday. Also, Nintendo supports sm4sh and Mr wizard wants money sooo..... Yeah. melee saturday, sm4sh sunday

It really isn't that simple or obvious.

 

[Gawain]

Add in that BBCP died out due to awful patches, and KOF13 just died, and it was an easy decision.

Hah, easy for Smashers to say! Many other amazing fighting games aren't getting in this year despite having HUGE followings at recent regionals. Just look at UNIEL. Bigger than Persona by a MASSIVE margin and it still didn't get in. We could have used that spot. Don't say it was an easy decision; Mr Wizard himself has already said it's not easy picking games for Evo as it's not purely about maximum amount of players; there is a LOT more to consider.

 

[Johnknight1]

Honestly the whole "Melee and Smash 4 are similar" thing kind of kills me.

They're as different as Marvel and Street Fighter in functionality. The end goal is the same, sure, but how you approach both games is so insanely different that it's almost like they're from different series. I've said this before, I'll say it again, but 64, Melee/PM, and Brawl/Smash 4 feel like 3 different series. I don't like the whole "lump them together at FGC games towards the same audience" deal, since they don't attract the same audiences.

If we honest to God looked at the gameplay first and foremost and not the first three names of the game, Melee and Smash 4 would both have separately earned a right to be "main event showcased games" on nearly an equal platform.

Edit: So please for the love of God (aka me) stop Melee vs. Smash 4 debates over gameplay when functionality-wise there's hardly anything comparable outside of the very basic concepts and techniques.

Hah, easy for Smashers to say! Many other amazing fighting games aren't getting in this year despite having HUGE followings at recent regionals. Just look at UNIEL. Bigger than Persona by a MASSIVE margin and it still didn't get in. We could have used that spot. Don't say it was an easy decision; Mr Wizard himself has already said it's not easy picking games for Evo as it's not purely about maximum amount of players; there is a LOT more to consider.

Of course it's easy for Smashers to say, lol. If it wasn't for EVO trying to diversify their game roster and instead focus 100% purely on maximizing each game's attendance (and legal issues in regard to IP ownership weren't a thing we had to worry about), Project M would probably be there in over Persona.

As for UNIEL, I think that was a Arc System Works call. Honestly though, I'm surprised Persona 4 even got a spot. I wasn't seeing that game at FGC events much at all (since like early 2014) until it was announced for EVO, lol.

Although speaking of which, the idea of a 4 day EVO for more games sounds good. I'd like to see the game roster increase by 2-4 games, especially since the FGC seems to be on the verge of blowing up as a big sub-scene of the greater eSports sphere. Of course, my bias to want Skullgirls at EVO, KOF13 coming back, and Xrd/Smash 4/Marvel 3 staying (as a viewer who loves watching fighting games as a stream monster) is influenced by that!

 

[Gawain]

Honestly the whole "Melee and Smash 4 are similar" thing kind of kills me.

They're as different as Marvel and Street Fighter in functionality. The end goal is the same, sure, but how you approach both games is so insanely different that it's almost like they're from different series. I've said this before, I'll say it again, but 64, Melee/PM, and Brawl/Smash 4 feel like 3 different series. I don't like the whole "lump them together at FGC games towards the same audience" deal, since they don't attract the same audiences.

If we honest to God looked at the gameplay first and foremost and not the first three names of the game, Melee and Smash 4 would both have separately earned a right to be "main event showcased games" on nearly an equal platform.

Of course it's easy for Smashers to say, lol. If it wasn't for EVO trying to diversify their game roster and instead focus 100% purely on maximizing each game's attendance (and legal issues in regard to IP ownership weren't a thing we had to worry about), Project M would probably be there in over Persona.

As for UNIEL, I think that was a Arc System Works call. Honestly though, I'm surprised Persona 4 even got a spot. I wasn't seeing that game at FGC events much at all (since like early 2014) until it was announced for EVO, lol.

Although speaking of which, the idea of a 4 day EVO for more games sounds good. I'd like to see the game roster increase by 2-4 games, especially since the FGC seems to be on the verge of blowing up as a big sub-scene of the greater eSports sphere. Of course, my bias to want Skullgirls at EVO, KOF13 coming back, and Xrd/Smash 4/Marvel 3 staying (as a viewer who loves watching fighting games as a stream monster) is influenced by that!

I'm not sure I agree with a 4 day Evo. Having it take place on a weekend and only a weekend makes the event MUCH easier for college students (especially this group) and people with jobs to make the event. Adding another day guarantees cutting out a lot of the traditional audience.

As for the whole esports and fighting games thing, I think that's actually a rather touchy subject for a lot of fighting game players. If you ask a lot of them, they really don't like the esports label. They don't like being tossed in with games likes League of Legends etc. The mentality between competitors in fighting games is very different. The scene in general is much less "professional", for lack of a better word. It's more rough as a whole. And a lot of players are very defensive about maintaining this culture, and I can't say I disagree with them on that.

My foresight is that it WILL get a little bigger but that it's going to cap off. There won't be massive multi-multi million dollar pots ever. I don't think that's gonna happen, but when Street Fighter V comes out there will probably be a really big resurgence.

 

[Johnknight1]

I'm not sure I agree with a 4 day Evo. Having it take place on a weekend and only a weekend makes the event MUCH easier for college students (especially this group) and people with jobs to make the event. Adding another day guarantees cutting out a lot of the traditional audience.

Eventually something has gotta give. Whether we need 2 EVO's (or another EVO equivalent) with different game rosters. I think inevitably we'll get more big fighting game majors that have numbers that truly are large like EVO. Perhaps CEO is becoming one of them.

As for the whole esports and fighting games thing, I think that's actually a rather touchy subject for a lot of fighting game players. If you ask a lot of them, they really don't like the esports label. They don't like being tossed in with games likes League of Legends etc. The mentality between competitors in fighting games is very different. The scene in general is much less "professional", for lack of a better word. It's more rough as a whole. And a lot of players are very defensive about maintaining this culture, and I can't say I disagree with them on that.

You know, I don't see it much differently than territories or states of a country not wanting to be like one another but still being together.

I think seeing all the big sponsors already in the FGC will make all the top players eventually join in, but still maintain a difference of "culture." I think eventually the wisdom of the older players will prevail there, but like certain shooters becoming bigger (namely Call of Duty) in the eSports scene, there still will be the sense of individuality.

My foresight is that it WILL get a little bigger but that it's going to cap off. There won't be massive multi-multi million dollar pots ever. I don't think that's gonna happen, but when Street Fighter V comes out there will probably be a really big resurgence.

Mine tells me that a platform like Twitch is only the beginning. As television becomes the internet, and is replaced by whatever the internet chooses to make it, we're gonna see Twitch and other gaming stream services become even huger and get huge ad revenue.

I think the series that don't have as much game jumping (Smash and Street Fighter namely) will likely see the greatest benefits of this though. I think the other series won't have quite the platform unless each game gets an established player base to make it last. I don't think jumping from game to game every year or every other year (and dropping older titles) is a healthy or viable way to see a certain series' scene grow.

 

[Kira~]

1) the average Sm4sh player respects Melee more than the reverse
2) Melee is just generally the community that b!tches when it's slighted which it will feel it has been if it gives the stage up.
:/

You have to realize the irony here.

 

[Wavebird]

I think logically people are going off their minds to think about it as a couchpotato or a streammonster

This arrangement greatly helps competitors and spectators at the event in more ways than you can think

considering there's two ballrooms at ballys we might get intertwined top 8s just like in 2013

I take it Persona,Killer instinct,Marvel, Melee and Tekken7 will close off the second day(Saturday)

Sunday will probably kick off with Guilty gear xrd then mortal kombat x followed by Sm4sh and end with Ultra Street fighter (along with announcements)

My assumptions also have to do with cross pollination in the community there's a lot of people that might be playing multiple games be it

Melee and Sm4sh
Guilty Gear and persona
Killer instinct and MKX
Marvel and USF4

But if it has to do with the competitors at hand this is much better considering it's would be more spread out and give people at the event a better and more flexible time for them to do other things(but it's all speculation)

 

[AcePikachu]

I feel like if it's Melee an actual riot will happen...

 

[Godzillionaire]

On the plus side, the fact that the smash games have so many entries that they need an extra day to finish up is really sweet!
On the minus side it's rather disappointing seeing as how one game will no doubt end up receiving more attention than the other.

 

[Malkasaur]

Melee should be streamed on Sunday. Smash 4 hasn't done anything to deserve it. This is Melee's 3rd year in a row at EVO now. It deserves to be there. Smash 4 is only there because it's new. If it comes back for next year, then maybe it'll get streamed on Sunday. Until then, Melee should be on Sunday.

 

[kinbobbobkin]

Melee should be streamed on Sunday. Smash 4 hasn't done anything to deserve it. This is Melee's 3rd year in a row at EVO now. It deserves to be there. Smash 4 is only there because it's new. If it comes back for next year, then maybe it'll get streamed on Sunday. Until then, Melee should be on Sunday.

This is the game's first time at EVO, how is suppose to deserve something?

 

[PurpleDolphin]

I think Melee deserve the main stage even though I am a Sm4sh and Melee fan. Its much more developed, brought Smash to evo, and is more competitive then Sm4sh. (Not saying Sm4sh isnt competitive, but at least as of now, Melee is more competitive imo)

 

[Crawfish]

Tournaments can only decide the tournament champion, not the best player in the world.

yeah, well, you see, the thing is, the "tournament champion" is usually the best in the world. no, some nobody from cambodia or whatever can beat melee's top 10. they CAN NOT. do they have the potential? yes, everyone does, but if they are as isolated as you make them out to be they can't be that good(currently). the reason the "tournament champion" is so, is because he has had years of experience, countless hours of practice and study, and the ability to play under immense pressure. I don't believe some nobody can attain all that in isolation.
smash 4? sure maybe, as wacky as customs are maybe just maybe some random can win. but players like zero devote their lives to this game. they win tournaments For A Reason, i hope you realize that.