Omni talks about the #OneUnit Illusion

[Riposte__]

Whining here

Why am I even bothering to respond to whining and complaining? I forget.

 

[Rehnquist]

Good point, but respect should be earned and not given.

I think I captured the scenario entirely in my first two posts on page two (might help before I get accused of anything), but to address the point that you are missing directly...

No one is really asking said population to respect anything as that requires action. People are asking for obstructionists to stop actively going out of their way to put others down via disrespect and obstructing venues other people are enjoying. I don't think you realize how childish that is. We are simply discussing it here so anything said here is not an issue and is not the topic at hand, opinions are fine. What we are discussing is going out of one's way, say an event, a stream, a forum, or youtube video, etc where people are minding their own business enjoying their own thing, and purposefully putting those players down.

Products if found to be inferior will fail on their own because of said inferiority, not because people are peeing in the punch bowl.

So even going with frame of mind you are presenting, we can look at the games as Golf vs Basketball. We can definitely conclude that the two entirely different sports with different speeds.Yet this doesn't give Basketball players the right to bully Golf players. If golf doesn't have a future, it will disappear, if it does, then it will stick.

Seriously if you took away the seniority of Melee or mimic this behavior between different sports, or between entirely different video game franchises (competitive Pokemon vs competitive Metroid speed runs), no one would tolerate this behavior. For some reason Melee's seniority and awesomeness as a game somehow protects socially inept behavior from 21+ y/o man babies.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Why am I even bothering to respond to whining and complaining? I forget.

I bet you're not even good at melee considering how negative and bad your attitude is I doubt anyone would want to play with you. You're honestly making me ashamed to be a SSBM fan right now...

Thing is, mentally challenged / angry people like yourself do not represent us. You represent the bad side of melee that nobody likes. Again, stfu and learn some respect or don't post.

This is an intelligent debate about UNIFYING the smash community and you're being negative.

I'm not "whining" about anything. You're a scrub. Stop talking.

 

[HeavyLobster]

You really can't wrap your head around the fact that history has shown when you take the skill out of technical play, the community at large ignores your game. Have fun being the lone crazy that waves the banner that C&C, tf2, and smash 4 are top esports games.

I suppose this is what @ Thinkaman is referring to when he talks about the "Kool Kids Klub" mentality. I'm sure he could provide intelligent posts about competitiveness and good game design, but it's not as if it would end any better than all the other Melee vs. Brawl/4 arguments. I would just ask you to consider that maybe other people have their own entirely valid criteria about what makes a good competitive game. History also shows that Chess has absolutely no tech skill whatsoever and has been a more successful competitive game than any eSport.

 

[Thinkaman]

LoL actively designs away from arbitrary technical execution challenges, and is far and away the largest and most successful e-sport. Not even close.

 

[Utena]

And nobody is throwing a fit or saying the game takes no skill because of it. Not a single person is claiming the game sucks because wavelanding is too easy, nor would they had grounded wavedashing been an intentional mechanic that works the same way.

wavedash/land is an interesting mechanic that opens up a lot of options. its not adored because it takes tech skill, it adds depth to the game and makes it more interesting. whereas something like perfect pivot is relatively useless. tech skill does generate hype though, see evo moment 37, but it takes multiple instances of techskill strung together, something that is impossible in smash 4.

Didn't say from the Top 5 specifically. I said from watching at Apex. I saw Marth, Little Mac, Mario, Luigi, Diddy, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Rosalina, Pikachu, Greninja, Yoshi, Link, Sheik, Ganondorf, Zero Suit Samus, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Duck Hunt, Falcon, Ness, Shulk, Villager, Sonic, Bowser Jr., Pit, Dark Pit, Lucario, R.O.B...almost 30 out of the total 48 characters.

with over 1000 entrants im sure melee pools saw every character used at least once.

If Melee fans don't want anything to do with anybody else, then ok. That's a shame. But it's not going to stop me from enjoying Smash Bros 4 competitively.

then quit trying to gain access to our events and streams. the artifices your community lives on only exist because of melee. this really isnt a two way street. smash 4 does nothing for melee, the mere existence of melee has done all the hard work for smash 4. sm4sh community needs to show respect to the melee side, and earn their acceptance.

Your attitude toward the rest of the series is disappointing to me. But if I can't change anybody's mind, then okay. I'm not going to dwell on it.

Money Match me in smash 4, or brawl for that matter.

 

[ssknight7]

Society is seriously being emasculated and destroyed by the PC crowd. This idea that it's intolerable to voice a negative opinion about something is mind blowingly stupid.

The crowd at Apex chanting Melee didn't do anything wrong. They don't owe him anything. Noone cares how hard you "worked" to get to where you are in Sm4sh today, Mr. Zero, sir. People have a right a right to voice their opinions (for now) and if you can't handle the implication of differing human opinions/desires maybe you should stop playing Sm4sh and read a book.

For all of you crying about the unimaginably abhorrent behavior of the those in the crowd chanting Melee, consider this: I've seen plenty of posts saying the problem was that the crowd was being disrespectful with the Melee chant because it was all about the timing and the context. They should have just sat and did nothing at all and that would have been just fine.

Does anyone really believe if the crowd, instead of chanting Melee, had just sat there and not clapped, not said anything, just patiently waited for Melee.. does anyone think for a second people wouldn't be complaining about how disrespectful they were not to applaud when Zero won? Yes, people would definitely be saying just that.

The point is, please stop saying people should have just paid Zero his due and applauded. If people didn't think his presence/performance warranted applause (some chanters didn't, but most just didn't care who Zero was) it's their effing right to say things like "FINALLY". If you don't like that reaction you have the right to say so.

Zero isn't "due" anything. Sm4sh isn't "due" anything. Melee isn't "due" anything.

Feel the way you want to feel, voice your feelings if you want and don't let society force you into silence / passivity.

 

[Utena]

by the end everyone on stream chat was stoked on ZeRo lmao, they just wanted sm4sh top 8 to end and he was the only one closing out sets, especially versus dabuz.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

wavedash/land is an interesting mechanic that opens up a lot of options. its not adored because it takes tech skill, it adds depth to the game and makes it more interesting. whereas something like perfect pivot is relatively useless. tech skill does generate hype though, see evo moment 37.

with over 1000 entrants im sure melee pools saw every character used at least once.

then quit trying to gain access to our events and streams. the artifices your community lives on only exist because of melee. this really isnt a two way street. smash 4 does nothing for melee, the mere existence of melee has done all the hard work for smash 4. sm4sh community needs to show respect to the melee side, and earn their acceptance.

Money Match me in smash 4.

Respect is not a one way street. On an individual basis, you earn respect. You do not simply get it.

Smash Bros is my favorite series. I played Melee for over 1000 hours. I played Brawl quite a bit as well. I'm not hating on Melee at all. I simply do not understand the hate that Smash 4 fans get.

I did chuckle at your post here, because I detected a hint of salt. I'm not trying to gain access to streams and events. If I'm not mistaken, Apex started as a... Super Smash Bros. event. Not a Melee event. A Super Smash Bros. event. That means ANY Super Smash Bros. title would fall under that. Not just Melee.

You cannot bully people into accepting what you want them to. Continuing what you're doing now is worthless, to the point that I have realized there is no reason to continue the discussion.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I agree with your opinion Ssknight, you put it forth very well and I like that. We have to be willing to maintain our composure and speak logically when defending the melee scene.

Yeah Zero was really salty. Went as far as to say he was "heartbroken" on Reddit. Luckily his trusty scarf was there to absorb his salty tears.

Honestly congrats to Zero for winning, but I really hate his crybaby attitude and how he expects us to see him the same way we would see PPMD or Mango or Armada. He's not on that level, nor will he ever be. Being the best at smash 4 is like being the smartest kid in your special ed class...imo...

 

[HeavyLobster]

wavedash/land is an interesting mechanic that opens up a lot of options. its not adored because it takes tech skill, it adds depth to the game and makes it more interesting.

I agree, and I like the idea of wavedashing as a mechanic, though arguing that it needs to be harder to pull off than necessary seems to me to be a defense of archaic game design.

Society is seriously being emasculated and destroyed by the PC crowd. This idea that it's intolerable to voice a negative opinion about something is mind blowingly stupid.

I agree completely that you have a right to criticize Smash 4 all you want and that there's nothing wrong with doing so. I just think that a lot of the criticisms of Smash 4 are ill-founded and would like to challenge them, as a lot of Melee fans seem to think there is no valid reason for supporting competitive Smash 4 based on their arbitrary definitions of competitiveness. I do think you ought to at least be polite enough not to ruin Zero's moment, and voice your opinions at an appropriate time and place. There is a middle ground between being super-PC and censoring your honest opinions in order to avoid offending people and being rude.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Society is seriously being emasculated and destroyed by the PC crowd. This idea that it's intolerable to voice a negative opinion about something is mind blowingly stupid.

The crowd at Apex chanting Melee didn't do anything wrong. They don't owe him anything. Noone cares how hard you "worked" to get to where you are in Sm4sh today, Mr. Zero, sir. People have a right a right to voice their opinions (for now) and if you can't handle the implication of differing human opinions/desires maybe you should stop playing Sm4sh and read a book.

For all of you crying about the unimaginably abhorrent behavior of the those in the crowd chanting Melee, consider this: I've seen plenty of posts saying the problem was that the crowd was being disrespectful with the Melee chant because it was all about the timing and the context. They should have just sat and did nothing at all and that would have been just fine.

Does anyone really believe if the crowd, instead of chanting Melee, had just sat there and not clapped, not said anything, just patiently waited for Melee.. does anyone think for a second people wouldn't be complaining about how disrespectful they were not to applaud when Zero won? Yes, people would definitely be saying just that.

The point is, please stop saying people should have just paid Zero his due and applauded. If people didn't think his presence/performance warranted applause (some chanters didn't, but most just didn't care who Zero was) it's their effing right to say things like "FINALLY". If you don't like that reaction you have the right to say so.

Zero isn't "due" anything. Sm4sh isn't "due" anything. Melee isn't "due" anything.

Feel the way you want to feel, voice your feelings if you want and don't let society force you into silence / passivity.

I think we're more concerned the problem is larger than that - it's less about disrespecting Zero, and more about disrespecting Smash 4 as a whole. Still, it's a valid case study in that we're seeing someone work hard to win one of the largest Smash tourney scenes in existence, and have his efforts trounced just because "he's playing the wrong game."

I'm glad to see some Melee fans chiming in and being respectful. I see now that sentiments of Smash 4 riding Melee's coattails aren't just the blathering of a few vocal trolls, but is actually a relevant concern that needs to be taken seriously (My apologies for not taking it seriously before... let's just say it was coming from an unreliable source). So, the obvious question: How do we approach this?

Separation of tournament events has been brought up a few times, but to me, this sounds like we're cutting off a limb and letting the unlucky half deal with the tumor. We should avoid creating a separate entity that becomes so insular it becomes unapproachable. However, it sounds like the diehard Melee fans are demanding to see how Smash 4 does on its own, and if that's a move that will improve attitude, then perhaps what Smash 4 needs is its own tournament event. Would that be a fair start? What other suggestions do we have?

 

[Riposte__]

Inferior reasoning here

All your post fail hard but the only one i'll respond to is this really sad and antiquated reason that every one has to be all super nice to one another.

Dont watch most sports do you? The number of sports where people are just them selves and trash talking and heat and wars between different camps erupt are immense and vastly outnumber the sports where every one is friendly to one another, i'd guess 9:1.

Secondly, Dont watch much Esports do you? I mean wow. You really had to reach deep to find communities that are hippy communes. Ever stop at any point while typing that and wonder why so many comp scenes are filled with trash talkers then are Dude Love groups in comp gaming? Talking trash has been the prevailing wisdom as far back as 96' and still prevails to this day. Hell, the very first community for esports I started with produced arguably the single greatest trash talker ever. If you ever want an lesson in **** talking 101 just go youtube 2gd.

Brawl 1 & 2 will never get respect with this authoritarian mindset where every one has to be super duper nice to one another or else they will have their moms will be called on them. After all, trash talk/hate is what fueled some of the greatest rivals of smash. And not just in smash, but in sports.

Then again, when you are not fast enough, not smart enough, and not skilled enough you do be thin skinned and demand every one be nice rather then stepping up and show-off and making people shut their mouth.

In your bleak and authoritarian world view of esports amazing rivalries like Leffen/Chillindude829 wouldn't of happened.

 

[ssknight7]

I agree completely that you have a right to criticize Smash 4 all you want and that there's nothing wrong with doing so. I just think that a lot of the criticisms of Smash 4 are ill-founded and would like to challenge them, as a lot of Melee fans seem to think there is no valid reason for supporting competitive Smash 4 based on their arbitrary definitions of competitiveness.

I'm not debating the merits of either game and/or whether or not people's opinions are well founded. You're more than welcome to challenge those opinions and I applaud you for expressing your opinion. My opinion is that Sm4sh blows chimp but that's not an opinion I care to debate, as I said.

I do think you ought to at least be polite enough not to ruin Zero's moment, and voice your opinions at an appropriate time and place. There is a middle ground between being super-PC and censoring your honest opinions in order to avoid offending people and being rude.

Here's where we differ. Your opinions on when/and how I should speak/react to a situation in order to be polite are noted and discarded. It's my right to throw your opinion right into the trash can as it is your right to discard my opinion.

Your statements about people voicing opinions at the proper time and place imply that you are some kind of an authority on what makes up agreeable human expression. Noone need abide by your interpretation of what is/is not an appropriate venue for expression.

Zero is some guy playing a game, and it's the right of the crowd to pay him absolutely no mind. By the same token, Mang0 and PPMD are guys playing a game and people have every right to pay them no mind.

 

[Rehnquist]

stuff.

The irony of the post is the fact that you have placed negative actions as above reproach from negative reactions. Do actions not have consequences? What prevents others for calling you guys sensitive for not liking the reactions? If we walk into a bar and throw dust at everybody in the bar, do we call the bar goers sensitive for asserting themselves? I'd say its the one who threw the dust to begin is sensitive to the reactions.

Is not the same freedom of thought/expression given to both sides? Because it doesn't seem to be treated that way and as for being politically correct, I've called actions without worrying about the sensitivities. Man babies, childish, socially inept, directed at the general phenomena and you've been prone to calling individuals stupid, dumb, lacking skill, etc. Sensitivity is not the problem here, its the lack of understanding that actions have consequences.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Here's where we differ. Your opinions on when/and how I should speak/react to a situation in order to be polite are noted and discarded. It's my right to throw your opinion right into the trash can as it is your right to discard my opinion.

Your statements about people voicing opinions at the proper time and place imply that you are some kind of an authority on what makes up agreeable human expression. Noone need abide by your interpretation of what is/is not an appropriate venue for expression.

Zero is some guy playing a game, and it's the right of the crowd to pay him absolutely no mind. By the same token, Mang0 and PPMD are guys playing a game and people have every right to pay them no mind.

Fair enough. Just be warned that these kinds of things do reflect poorly on the competitive Melee community, and if you want competitive Melee to grow and thrive, as I do, it's best for the scene not to be viewed as a bunch of jerks, which is how a lot of people do see the community right now.

 

[ssknight7]

Fair enough. Just be warned that these kinds of things do reflect poorly on the competitive Melee community, and if you want competitive Melee to grow and thrive, as I do, it's best for the scene not to be viewed as a bunch of jerks, which is how a lot of people do see the community right now.

Personally I have no desire to see the competitive Melee community inundated with people who are able to control how I express my feelings and think it their obligation to police my manners.

If the great promise of etiquette is the end of honest self expression culminating in my having to watch my every word/action to make sure I don't offend anyone, then you can have it.

I happen to disagree with you though, I think it's actually really good that some emotionally weak people find it hard to mesh/understand the Melee community. Either accept the community and be a part of it, or don't. It doesn't need you, me or anyone else to change it.

The Melee community is fine the way it is, if for no other reason than it generally does not apologize for itself.

Let the rest of the world form its own opinion. Who cares?

 

[Riposte__]

Fair enough. Just be warned that these kinds of things do reflect poorly on the competitive Melee community, and if you want competitive Melee to grow and thrive, as I do, it's best for the scene not to be viewed as a bunch of jerks, which is how a lot of people do see the community right now.

Oh, give this **** a rest. It only reflects poorly on thin skinned wimps that can't handle any amount of adversity. What's next, participation ribbons for every one who entered? this is a competition. People win and have the highest of highs, and people lose and have the lowest of lows. Rather then try to make every one a winner just take it on the chin, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and show up to the next event.

NOBODY will take you seriously with this 'every one is equal and no one should ever have hurt feelings' mentality.

 

[YourFaithfulStudent]

ssknight7

Bruh, i think you need Ragu.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Personally I have no desire to see the competitive Melee community inundated with people who are able to control how I express my feelings and think it their obligation to police my manners.

If the great promise of etiquette is the end of honest self expression culminating in my having to watch my every word/action to make sure I don't offend anyone, then you can have it.

I happen to disagree with you though, I think it's actually really good that some emotionally weak people find it hard to mesh/understand the Melee community. Either accept the community and be a part of it, or don't. It doesn't need you, me or anyone else to change it.

The Melee community is fine the way it is, if for no other reason than it generally does not apologize for itself.

Let the rest of the world form its own opinion. Who cares?

Oh, give this **** a rest. It only reflects poorly on thin skinned wimps that can't handle any amount of adversity. What's next, participation ribbons for every one who entered? this is a competition. People win and have the highest of highs, and people lose and have the lowest of lows. Rather then try to make every one a winner just take it on the chin, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and show up to the next event.

NOBODY will take you seriously with this 'every one is equal and no one should ever have hurt feelings' mentality.

Fine. Do whatever you want. I don't care if everyone hates you and your glorious Melee Master Race. I'll just go back to being a filthy Smash 4 peasant. Heaven forbid I make a suggestion to help ease tensions between the various communities.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Maybe if I put a stutter at the beginning, it will make him seem stupid!

Maybe if I dismiss his argument as whining, it will make him seem stupid!

Maybe if I claim that he is unskilled, it will make him seem stupid!

Your strawmans are truly remarkable. You should be a political pundit. :^)

Spoiler

Yes, I'm aware that this post is a strawman as well, but that doesn't change the fact that your arguments rely entirely on mocking other arguments and claiming they're saying something that they actually aren't, rather than rebutting the arguments.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why cant brawl 2 players keep it to themselves, they are the ones storming our castles wanting to be part of the big boys club with out earning it. We are just telling you to bugger off.
Her'es an idea: Rather then having brawl 2 at Majors that Melee helped build up, have your own majors with your own venues and your own logistics and dont leach off Melee anymore and see how long your scene survives.



All of it.



Wrong, Smash 64 is a competitive game and brawl 1 and 2 are not. Flat out. they are non technical, slow, boring, and casual games.



Brawl players are so desperate to have their casual game be accepted in the pantheon of fighting games that they will make up any straw man rather then face the facts. What makes a game a competitor in the competitive market is the trifecta: Fast game play, Fun, technical prowess. Brawl players which don't know 2 out of the three (hint: The one they do know is 'fun' Lord only knows why though.) But any none who takes 2 seconds to think about this can see the connection through out the history of Esports. Quake was the biggest FPS of the late 90's and early 2000s getting the nod over UT which remains only a cult classic. Starcraft is th biggest things in esports since sliced bread getting the nod over it's competitor, Command and Conquer. Quake still has the biggest event based around it then any other fps (though real talk: RIP fps. They went down the road Smash is going and now there is only slow and boring fps that nobody cares about with the exception of CoD.)



What it really boils down to is that brawl fools are to naive or foolish to see that esports all favored the fast paced, fun, and technical games. You want smash 4 to be accepted because finally! A smash game that has been watered down enough that anyone can just press buttons and have things happen with out all that messy needed to have technical prowess that comes from the two good smash games, but if you could read the tea leaves you'd see a game like this was doomed from the start.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JICUzFXN3uo

How many entrances did brawl have at apex? I forget..Was it more or less than smash 64?


And i'll leave you with what Kage the Warrior said in Fighterpida's video on brawl.

"Brawl destroys families. Few people will forget the dark day brawl entered their lives."

http://youtu.be/7o8yWSmkMMQ?t=8m10s (Watch from 8:10 onward for pure gold)

If you are calling Smash 4 Brawl 2, you show you have no idea what you are talking about.

Smash 4 is easy to pick up but hard to master and doesn't rely on arbitrary tech skill to work. It's more reliant on good fundamentals where as Melee you need good tech skill more than good fundamentals, tldr Street fighter 4 vs Marvel.

There is nothing wrong with that and is plenty competitive.

League of Legends is one if the easiest MOBAs to pick up yet is still insanely popular as an Esport. In terms of entertainment is also a lot less action packed than even a campy Brawl or Smash 64 match.

 

[Utena]

Fair enough. Just be warned that these kinds of things do reflect poorly on the competitive Melee community, and if you want competitive Melee to grow and thrive, as I do, it's best for the scene not to be viewed as a bunch of jerks, which is how a lot of people do see the community right now.

who cares? melee community kicks ass on its own, and has for years. they dont need your help.


also if zero was actually upset at the apex crowd thats pitiful. hes just salty that he gets bopped in melee and has to play the lite version to be relevant.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

who cares? melee community kicks *** on its own, and has for years. they dont need your help.

The Smash 4 community isn't trying to "help" Melee, Melee is perfectly fine. All we want is to be treated with respect. You treat us like we're ****ing subhumans, and when we tell you to cut that **** out, you just say that we're salty because we're not good at Melee, or that people don't deserve to be treated with respect.

I also find it ironic that you say that Zero is mad about losing in Melee, considering he's considered to be THE 35TH BEST MELEE PLAYER IN THE ENTIRE WORLD, above players like HugS, DJ Nintendo, and Kage. He tied for 17th place at EVO 2014, out of 970 entrants. He's definitely "relevant" in Melee, he's just even better at Brawl and Smash 4, so that's what he's more well-known for. Who are you? You're nobody. I find it hilarious that you would talk **** about his skill even though he would probably crush you at Melee, as well as every other Smash game.

 

[[OCK]LLama]

I think the real boiling point that brought us to this is that while Brawl wasn't a bad game at all, the tripping and other slowness issues bogged it down a bunch, so there were legitimate complaints. Now you have a legitimately really really good game gameplay wise in Smash 4, and it's still getting tons of hate from Melee fans.

People who follow all the games (which is basically what "Smash 4" fans are, they're not Smash 4 fans as much as "Smash Series" fans), are now starting to fire back because they realize its not "Brawl Hate", it's "Anything that's not Melee" hate and are starting to retaliate. That's why all of a sudden we're having a bit of a Smash Civil War.

Of course I'll also add in that the Smash Series fans who spew toxic against the Melee Fans are just as bad as Melee fans who heckled the Smash 4 finals at APEX. That's just throwing fuel on the fire and makes things worse.

I dislike your ability to recognize why melee players dislike other games. When melee players start invading boards about smash 4 and threads on reddit about smash 4 and etc, yeah it's cancer. But when people just express disgust or dislike at smash 4 without insulting anybody or heckling anybody or offending specific people, I think it's perfectly fine, depending on how offensive and where its posted. I think dislike of smash 4 isn't a crime at all, it is not a technical game by any means, being technical is honestly optional and most of the top players aren't that technical in this game (Notice I said: in this game. ZeRo specifically is technical in his Spacies in melee [which btw he placed top 18 last EVO, so it's not like the hate he gets for playing "games that can substitute skill with playing top tiers" is even rational]). That's fine, I could care less, but to others they take it as a reason to dislike the game, and that's perfectly fine.

tl;dr dislike games- sure, but just be curious or as not offensive as possible to the other fans of the series.

also Melee Elitists get less hate than FGC anti smash elitists which is odd, because they are more cancer to the community overall, but I guess whatever- FGC anti smash elitists have yet to rag on smash 4 that much. Oh boy, EVO 2k15 is going to be a big steaming pile of hate for smash 4.

 

[Johnknight1]

Honestly, I agree with the #OneUnit mentality, but it is mistranslated by people A LOTTTTTTTTTT to where like "No Johns," "Fox only, Final Destination, No Items," "Tires Don Exits," and other such terms (those 3 terms are all meant to be funny and used as a joke) are mistranslated and treated wrongly.

I see people use "No Johns" as an insult for players. I also see "Fox Only, Final Destination, No Items" legitimately being used by people to describe competitive Melee to insult it, when that isn't remotely true. Heck, the whole "tires don exits" became "tiers are 4 q****s" which honestly shows some people's immaturity.

#OneUnit It's all about respect. You don't have to play a game or like a game. Heck, you can criticize the game (although there's obviously a time and place where you and can't do that), but please, respect the players. Don't do things like boo or chant another games name while people are playing it (especially in tournament), which happened to Melee at APEX 2013, Brawl at APEX 2014, and Smash Wii U at APEX 2015. That's just not cool.

Now onto how #OneUnit is mistranslated, I see people think it means you have to like, play, or even actively push all games, even equally. That just isn't true. For instance, I don't enjoy playing Brawl. I haven't played vBrawl in over 5 years since I quit playing it. However, I loved my time in Brawl. I cherish those memories. NorCal Brawl was awesome to me, and I still support the scene there and internationally for Brawl. But other Smash games I don't play need people who play and love those games to carry them, not other people.

One of the key reasons Brawl stopped showing up at tournaments is it had no real support from Brawl players. There were very few Brawl TO's, very few organized Brawl scenes, and ultimately competitive Brawl relied way too much on competitive Melee. Once Melee TO's stopped running Brawl tournaments (due to Melee drawing more, waning Brawl interest due to Melee and PM taking off, waning Brawl interested due to Smash 4 on the horizon, choosing to host 2 games and picking PM over Smash 4, etc), Brawl just flat disappeared by and large.

I think Smash 4 players need to step up and realize that could easily happen to them. A huge chunk of the Smash 4 community is literally the ex-Brawl community, and another huge chunk are newer players. If you want Smash 4 to last, setup good infrastructure in your town, local area, county, state, region, geographic center, country, and internationally, and have your own TO's and own events. Don't just rely on these "Smash events" or "Melee events," otherwise Smash 4's scene will die quicker than Brawl's.

I can barley even think of any Smash 4 specific or Smash 4 first TO's. There's not many of them. Meanwhile there are tons of Melee-centric TO's that are really good, as well as quite a few Project M-centric TO's that are also good. So yeah, "One Unit" is good, but the true dedicated fans of a game are the one that decide a games' fate and healthiness of their competitive scene, not Smash fans as a whole.

 

[Redd500]

Hey, guys? Have you ever thought that being honest and being nice aren't mutually exclusive?

 

[Deleted member]

Good point, but respect should be earned and not given.

The irony within this is delicious.

Carry on, kid.

 

[Johnknight1]

Why am I even bothering to respond to whining and complaining? I forget.

You described yourself really well here.

Seriously, as a Melee fan with a second degree in Project M who also loves Smash 64, dabbled in Brawl in the past, and has some (not a lot) of interest in Smash 4, I must say your toxic attitude is cancerous, and you need to get the hell out. Heck, I've reported you for about 4 different posts for being just an all-around prick to people who happen to enjoy it. It's about time you learn some damn respect.

Listen you can bash Smash 4 all you want, but the point is it is competitive (anything can be competitive), and its' players deserve respect.

The fact that you, a no name scrub from a nowhere region (apologies Idaho smash, but you got few if any players) is trashing people like you're some expert on game design and the depths of competitive play is hilarious.

I'll tell your Smash Balls what... If you ever come to NorCal for a tournament, you and me will have a money match. Melee. $100. On stream if possible with the reasons explained why and linked to this thread.

Loser gets renamed to be "2" to the other player's username (Johnknight2, Riposte_2") PERMANENTLY on Smash World Forums.

So put your balls where your mouth is, because I'm willing to teach you a lesson. There's a big NorCal regional next month too, so if you're feeling as brave as you are behind that keyboard of yours, why don't you come on down for a big Melee showdown=???

 

[Mightyno.M]

Omni
KEEP ON PREACHING!!!

 

[Johnknight1]

So technically we should blame it all on Sakurai since he screwed us over with brawl, and since then things have been crazy divided. lol

I honestly think Sakurai's anti-competitive statements in regards to Melee caused the divide more than anything.

If Brawl was as it is or even if it was like Project M, there would still be some divide. Divide is normal, but some of the Melee vs. Brawl crap was definitely not. Back in the day there was mud slinging all over, and both games were practically divorced until Melee's size started rivaling Brawl's in 2011, and Melee's superior infrastructure forced Brawl players to go events hosted by Melee players. Then the divide died down.

Point is, if Sakurai didn't say "Melee is too hard" and make the people who worship Sakurai like he's their God and central focal point of their religious beliefs, this divide would be a lot smaller between Melee and Brawl and now Smash 4. Those players also wouldn't have such opinions (of course idol worship is another factor, but let's not get into advanced psychological issues of society). To this day some members of the Brawl and Smash 4 community still hold that belief, and still use that as a reason to hold a grudge against Melee and even its' competitive players. Coincidentally, some Melee players do the inverse the same way too.

It's funny that Nintendo is advertising all this "peace" when their director is the one that started the biggest and worst feuds of them all in the ugliest way possible.

===

However, having said that, this is NOTHING compared to the kind of hate you see in the FGC.

Oh God, to those of you players entering Smash 4 going to EVO, expect to get crapped on for playing Smash 4. Have some witty lines in store, preferably about the quality of the basements they live in.

//

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

who cares? melee community kicks *** on its own, and has for years. they dont need your help.


also if zero was actually upset at the apex crowd thats pitiful. hes just salty that he gets bopped in melee and has to play the lite version to be relevant.

I might get in trouble for this but I think I need to put you on blast.

You have terrible mind sets and are a poor example of the smash community.

You think people booing him and chanting after the countless efforts he put into the game to get better. Who cares how he performs in Melee, that has nothing to do with how terrible the reaction was to the point Scar, D1, Prog, PewpewU, and many more told the Melee community and Zero sorry and to keep on trucking on.

Who cares that no one needs each other, I will along with others support the smash community no matter what game they play.

Your poor behavior here and in the past in the smash 4 boards with having no idea what you are talking about with it's mechanics shows you have zero compassion for other human beings and like to be as rude as possible while offering nothing of value for others.

Do yourself and others a favor and rethink how you act. Preferring a game is one thing, being toxic and berating others while promoting terrible behavior is what you have shown.

Be a positive example, don't be the problem.

 

[Redd500]

I honestly think Sakurai's anti-competitive statements in regards to Melee caused the divide more than anything.

If Brawl was as it is or even if it was like Project M, there would still be some divide. Divide is normal, but some of the Melee vs. Brawl crap was definitely not. Back in the day there was mud slinging all over, and both games were practically divorced until Melee's size started rivaling Brawl's in 2011, and Melee's superior infrastructure forced Brawl players to go events hosted by Melee players. Then the divide died down.

Point is, if Sakurai didn't say "Melee is too hard" and make the people who worship Sakurai like he's their God and central focal point of their religious beliefs, this divide would be a lot smaller between Melee and Brawl and now Smash 4. Those players also wouldn't have such opinions (of course idol worship is another factor, but let's not get into advanced psychological issues of society). To this day some members of the Brawl and Smash 4 community still hold that belief, and still use that as a reason to hold a grudge against Melee and even its' competitive players. Coincidentally, some Melee players do the inverse the same way too.

It's funny that Nintendo is advertising all this "peace" when their director is the one that started the biggest and worst feuds of them all in the ugliest way possible.

===

However, having said that, this is NOTHING compared to the kind of hate you see in the FGC.

Oh God, to those of you players entering Smash 4 going to EVO, expect to get crapped on for playing Smash 4. Have some witty lines in store, preferably about the quality of the basements they live in.

//

I don't think any blame can be placed on the creation of Brawl or Sakurai's opinions. The creation of Brawl was Sakurai developing a game that was designed for another audience than the hardcore Melee crowd. Sakurai stating his opinion, well, is him stating his opinion, just like everyone else in this world. His opinion only means that he doesn't want to develop another Melee because it's not the kind of game he wants to develop, and the Smash games are designed as party games first and competitive games second. All Sakurai did was develop a game different from a prequel, and speak his mind about said prequel.

Really, all of the fault is on us for making people in the Smash community feel like they have to pick a side in these "wars." And that's really how splits in communities happen. Instead of agreeing to disagree or calmly discussing our thoughts, community members create an "us vs. them" mentality that shouldn't even be there.

 

[Morbi]

I don't think any blame can be placed on the creation of Brawl or Sakurai's opinions. The creation of Brawl was Sakurai developing a game that was designed for another audience than the hardcore Melee crowd. Sakurai stating his opinion, well, is him stating his opinion, just like everyone else in this world. His opinion only means that he doesn't want to develop another Melee because it's not the kind of game he wants to develop, and the Smash games are designed as party games first and competitive games second. All Sakurai did was develop a game different from a prequel, and speak his mind about said prequel.

Really, all of the fault is on us for making people in the Smash community feel like they have to pick a side in these "wars." And that's really how splits in communities happen. Instead of agreeing to disagree or calmly discussing our thoughts, community members create an "us vs. them" mentality that shouldn't even be there.

I am sure that his statements are a contributing factor, it would be unwise to assert that they had NOTHING to do with the divide. Mostly because it is a claim that cannot be proven. Again, as you stated, Sakurai's opinions are his own; however, he does have an influential opinion. I do agree that MOST of the fault is on these silly wars, but to make an objective claim, one needs evidence.

 

[Redd500]

I am sure that his statements are a contributing factor, it would be unwise to assert that they had NOTHING to do with the divide. Mostly because it is a claim that cannot be proven. Again, as you stated, Sakurai's opinions are his own; however, he does have an influential opinion. I do agree that MOST of the fault is on these silly wars, but to make an objective claim, one needs evidence.

True, but I would tend to blame the people who put Sakurai on a pedestal and put incredible value in his opinion because that's a flaw that people should fix. No one should have to be afraid of stating a harmless opinion because some people hold them in too high of a regard.

 

[The Radiant Warrior]

And then there is M2K, who defeats nearly everyone no matter which of the discussed smash games he is playing

 

[The Radiant Warrior]

I totally agree with everything in the video. Even though I don't know much about Melee or PM, I still like watching the sets.

 

[Ultim8]

Why is there so much hate between the Smash series? Take the other series like Street Fighter as an example. When SF4 came out people didn't went crying to daddy Capcom that it didn't have the parry system like SF3. If you like a Melee more than Sm4sh, fine, great, enjoy it. Just don't b**ch about how one sucks more than the other.

 

[Johnknight1]

I don't think any blame can be placed on the creation of Brawl or Sakurai's opinions.

I never once blamed Brawl (other than saying sequels create divides by nature, but nothing more). I blamed the fact Sakurai said Melee was "too hard," and for some reason people still hold that mindset merely because he said that. Before he said that the only thing people thought was "too hard" was unlocking characters, stages, and content. I've been posting and lurking on Smash message boards since 2000 and I never saw the gameplay being called too hard, but suddenly after that quote in 2003 I've seen it said thousands of times.

The creation of Brawl was Sakurai developing a game that was designed for another audience than the hardcore Melee crowd. Sakurai stating his opinion, well, is him stating his opinion, just like everyone else in this world. His opinion only means that he doesn't want to develop another Melee because it's not the kind of game he wants to develop, and the Smash games are designed as party games first and competitive games second. All Sakurai did was develop a game different from a prequel, and speak his mind about said prequel.

Sakurai has routinely put the competitive community on blast, and not just Melee.
-Sakurai has called competitive players maniacs.
-Sakurai told us competitive won't last for Smash very recently.

VGBootCamp reported they had over 2.5 million unique viewers during APEX 2015 (that's not including Team Sp00ky's stream), with two 800+ entrant Smash tournaments without 1 of the 3 biggest Smash games present. Sorry Sakurai, you're wrong and you should feel bad for how dead wrong you are.

-Sakurai built Brawl so it couldn't be competitive or have technical depth (he failed at that to a large degree, but Brawl was less technical in Melee). Sakurai did it moreso in Smash 4 (although now they can patch out competitive aspects). Sakurai claimed to do this to "even the playing field" because he didn't want better players to scare away newer players.

You know, like how Messi scares away kids from playing soccer/football, aka the most popular sport in the world that is infinitely more popular than Smash will ever be. Yep, that's why he brings in millions of dollars a year from sponsors. Because his competitive superiority scares people away from playing soccer/football casually.

Apparently talent is bad. Maybe that's why Sakurai hates Kirby now: because the latest Kirby games are so much better than the ones he made. That's probably also why he won't work with HAL.

-Sakurai has claimed the competitive aspect "hurt" the game, when in truth it didn't. Hint: Melee and Brawl are both popular competitively and casually. Besides that, Melee was the game that sky rocketed the series into fame, and it is the most played game competitively by far.

-Prog has stated at the Invitational Sakurai was distant towards the players, and he didn't want to be involved with the Invitational at all. I also am pretty sure that isn't the first time he shrugged off competitive players. He just stuck with his little cliche. At a Japanese Smash 4 Invitational in which top players were present (I'm pretty sure it included aMSa), none of their competitive accomplishments were mentioned.

Meanwhile Prog contrasted it by saying Ono, a top Street Fighter dev, has given him and other competitive players high fives and handshakes and embraces the competitive scene as well as non-competitive players. He also announced the Capcom Cup, which will have a pot across multiple tournaments of over $500,000.

Now please, tell me you would rather have a person like Sakurai than Ono. Please.

 

[Caryslan]

Melee elitist signing on. Nope, your baby garbage game will never accept because it's the most casual game since bejeweled. Think about it this way: melee players don't **** on smash 64 events. Why? While it's not melee it is a highly technical game of skill where you need to be able to preform a lot of advanced technicalities and pull off 0 to death kills. Smash 4 is not a competitive game like smash 64 is, and will die like brawl did before it, so stop demanding we respect you for no reason other then there is a Smash logo on your game. We dont like casuals game. We hated brawl 1, we are going to hate on brawl 2.

Here's a novel idea, why don't you play Melee and leave the Smash 4 community alone. I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk, but this kinda of attitude really bothers me, and is a valid example of what is wrong with certain aspects of the Smash community.

And I would counter yours argument with this, Smash 4 has not really been given the chance to show off its potental. Custom moves and Mii Fighters are banned in TOs. Nobody is even considering the possibility of doing 3 on 3 or even 4 on 4 matches at tournaments. Smash 4 has potential, the issue is that TOs play it safe with the same ruleset that had been in place since Melee.

They are not taking advantage of the unique things Smash 4 does bring to the table.

The lack of custom movesets is what bothers me. There are tons of potential matchups that could be had with custom movesets, and the knowledge that you could never know what another character could be using. Add in the fact that certain characters like Ganondorf are helped by custom movesets.

But even if TOs keep playing Smash 4 like it is now, then so be it.

My issue is this. You don't like Smash 4, good for you. There's some good news as well in that regard. You don't have to like Smash 4, you don't even have to respect the community that does like the game. But why do you and others feel the need to constantly bash a game you don't like?

We get it, you like Melee. You think our community sucks. Then just ignore us. Go play Melee, go enjoy it. And leave us alone.

Why is that so hard to ask? What is the problem with Smash 4 being played at events? If Melee and 64 is still going on, then what's the issue?

Just because you don't like a game does not give you or other fans a right to sit around interrupting the grand finals of Smash 4.

Have you and others ever stopped to think about why some people see people like you as elitest fanboys who can't get over a 15-year old game? It's not because we hate Melee, it's because we're sick and tired on constantly being slammed because we like a game.

What, are you scared Smash 4 might start killing off Melee like Brawl did years ago? Answer me one question, why go out of your way to bash a game so badly? I understand you don't like it. I don't like a lot of things either.

But it does not mean I sit on the internet and spend time trying to destroy it.

This post is not directed to you alone, but in response to many comments like this I've seen recently.