Omni talks about the #OneUnit Illusion

[HeavyLobster]

There are a number of problems with "Melee elitism" but the biggest one is that it loudly and boldly condemns Brawl and Smash 4's objective competitive merit on largely superficial/subjective grounds, with the main critiques being a reduced emphasis on tech skill(true on both fronts, Smash 4 moreso than Brawl), a lack of game speed(Brawl moreso than Smash 4, though Smash 4's usually faster than what was seen in top 8 at APEX, even in fairly high level matches), and an overemphasis on defensive play.(somewhat true though exaggerated for Brawl, not really true for Smash 4) These points might make a game less appealing to a particular individual, but they do not make the game uncompetitive in the sense that, say, Tic-tac-toe is uncompetitive.

The crux of all fighting games is decision making, not tech skill, which is merely a means to an end, and while tech skill must play some role in any action game, it isn't what makes or breaks a fighting game. Melee is a great fighter not because of its advanced techs, but because of the decisions one must make when applying them. In this respect Smash 4 is quite sound, and with the exception of Diddy's Uair, there is very little that is polarizing and causes the game to revolve around one or two things. For all the complaints about shields, rolls, or airdodge out of tumble, all of these are punishable if done predictably, and no one option dominates all the others. As far as game speed and aggression go, Smash 4 really isn't all that slow in general, though there were a number of issues with how APEX went that have nothing to do with what the game actually is like. Also keep in mind that in the Grand Finals matchup between a campy character and an aggro one, the aggro one won decisively. Also keep in mind that even if we assume Smash 4 is campy(or at least too campy for your personal liking), this does not mean it is objectively without competitive merit, takes no skill, or that there is no appeal for competitively minded players. Just because some people find campy play less appealing doesn't mean that it's bad for a game to have some of it.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

While the "Melee" chants at Apex are certainly uncalled for, Melee vs Smash 4 wasn't the driving factor behind it. People had to move venues and change their schedule, things were running 3 hours behind schedule, people had work in the morning, and people had to drive back in the dark with ice on the roads. People were frustrated, they took out that frustration the wrong way, and now people are misinterpreting it. Of course there's still some hostility, and there's not much we can do about that, but we are overreacting.

However, it's things like this that make me support getting rid of this #oneunit idea entirely. Just run Melee and Smash 4 tournaments completely separate whenever possible. PM could be run alongside Melee as well. All 3 games would benefit from it. It's a drastic change, but frankly, hating on Smash 4 isn't going to stop, PM getting shunned isn't going to stop, and having to watch hours of a game that a majority of the people don't play or even enjoy isn't going to stop unless we change something drastic.

Interesting... while I'm hesitant to agree to a solution that involves dividing the community, you raise valid points and it would address the immediate problems - fans of the older games don't want overshadowed by the new, and fans of the new deserve a chance to prove they can be taken seriously without the help of the old. It's no question that crossing the streams (literally) exacerbated the problem.

Separation may be an immediate remedy, but I fear it may have long-term side-effects. If this is the direction we take, what next? Can we hope the community can rejoin down the line, or will that wedge become permanent?

 

[Riposte__]

Then why can't you keep it to yourself? Nobody's asking you to change your opinion, but blatant disrespect towards others just because they're different from you is the foundation of bigotry.

Why cant brawl 2 players keep it to themselves, they are the ones storming our castles wanting to be part of the big boys club with out earning it. We are just telling you to bugger off.
Her'es an idea: Rather then having brawl 2 at Majors that Melee helped build up, have your own majors with your own venues and your own logistics and dont leach off Melee anymore and see how long your scene survives.

There's only one part of your entire post that's accurate:

All of it.

That is right. Smash 4 is not competitive in the same way as 64. 64 is not competitive in the same was as Melee. Melee is not competitive in the same way as Brawl. Brawl is not competitive in the same way as PM. And so on, and so on.

Wrong, Smash 64 is a competitive game and brawl 1 and 2 are not. Flat out. they are non technical, slow, boring, and casual games.

Just because a game doesn't match your expectations of competition doesn't mean it isn't competitive. It's a different kind of competition. Whether you can 0-death an opponent is an irrelevant factor in the worthiness of a game. Whether you choose to accept it or not is entirely your choice, but this in no way gives anybody the right to jeer at fans of another game. We don't see Melee fans trashing Ultra Street Fighter IV or Guilty Gear Xrd, so why attack members of your own community?

Brawl players are so desperate to have their casual game be accepted in the pantheon of fighting games that they will make up any straw man rather then face the facts. What makes a game a competitor in the competitive market is the trifecta: Fast game play, Fun, technical prowess. Brawl players which don't know 2 out of the three (hint: The one they do know is 'fun' Lord only knows why though.) But any none who takes 2 seconds to think about this can see the connection through out the history of Esports. Quake was the biggest FPS of the late 90's and early 2000s getting the nod over UT which remains only a cult classic. Starcraft is th biggest things in esports since sliced bread getting the nod over it's competitor, Command and Conquer. Quake still has the biggest event based around it then any other fps (though real talk: RIP fps. They went down the road Smash is going and now there is only slow and boring fps that nobody cares about with the exception of CoD.)

What it really boils down to is this is a kneejerk reaction to feeling threatened. You've poured hours into honing your skills at Melee to be the best you can be, and that's awesome. Now, a new game comes out, and your skills don't carry over as cleanly as you'd like. You can either adapt and learn a new game, or reject and keep with the old. Either option is respectable. It only becomes a problem when you lash out at others who are becoming better than you in a different game in the series. You denounce it and try to convince everybody that it doesn't matter or it's nonexistent in order to maintain your elite status you feel entitled to, but all this does is reflect poorly upon yourself and upon the community as a whole.

What it really boils down to is that brawl fools are to naive or foolish to see that esports all favored the fast paced, fun, and technical games. You want smash 4 to be accepted because finally! A smash game that has been watered down enough that anyone can just press buttons and have things happen with out all that messy needed to have technical prowess that comes from the two good smash games, but if you could read the tea leaves you'd see a game like this was doomed from the start.

The proof of this is your insistence that Brawl is dead, even though it is very much alive and was even present at the same venue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JICUzFXN3uo

How many entrances did brawl have at apex? I forget..Was it more or less than smash 64?


And i'll leave you with what Kage the Warrior said in Fighterpida's video on brawl.

"Brawl destroys families. Few people will forget the dark day brawl entered their lives."

http://youtu.be/7o8yWSmkMMQ?t=8m10s (Watch from 8:10 onward for pure gold)

 

[MegaSilver]

Nintendo's involvement has hurt PM, as can be seen by the situation by VGBC (Nintendo said nothing about PM, but just because Nintendo is involved, he's dropping the game). As long as Nintendo is a factor, PM is going to have a hard time growing, and Smash 4 has lead to the game being somewhat shunned at major event, more so because Smash 4 is new and Nintendo is throwing money around than because of anything else. It's only natural that PM players will feel hostility towards Smash 4.

Well, of course Nintendo is not going to endorse a fan made mod of their game, but why take that out on fans of later entries in the series?

How is Nintendo not endorsing a fan mod any different than any company doing that? Is it really surprising?

 

[Luigisama]

Brawl, 64, Wii U, 3DS, Melee, PM...
It's all Smash Bros. and it's all lots of fun. One isn't better than the other. Better is subjective and isn't what truly matters.

Just play the game guys.

I love the entire Smash Community and I have respect for anyone who plays Smash and therefore supports the Community.

I'm sure there are others who think this way, but great post my friend.

On a side note I don't know a single pro smash player that actually hates other smash games.

 

[Smolder]

Why cant brawl 2 players keep it to themselves, they are the ones storming our castles wanting to be part of the big boys club with out earning it. We are just telling you to bugger off.
Her'es an idea: Rather then having brawl 2 at Majors that Melee helped build up, have your own majors with your own venues and your own logistics and dont leach off Melee anymore and see how long your scene survives.



All of it.



Wrong, Smash 64 is a competitive game and brawl 1 and 2 are not. Flat out. they are non technical, slow, boring, and casual games.



Brawl players are so desperate to have their casual game be accepted in the pantheon of fighting games that they will make up any straw man rather then face the facts. What makes a game a competitor in the competitive market is the trifecta: Fast game play, Fun, technical prowess. Brawl players which don't know 2 out of the three (hint: The one they do know is 'fun' Lord only knows why though.) But any none who takes 2 seconds to think about this can see the connection through out the history of Esports. Quake was the biggest FPS of the late 90's and early 2000s getting the nod over UT which remains only a cult classic. Starcraft is th biggest things in esports since sliced bread getting the nod over it's competitor, Command and Conquer. Quake still has the biggest event based around it then any other fps (though real talk: RIP fps. They went down the road Smash is going and now there is only slow and boring fps that nobody cares about with the exception of CoD.)



What it really boils down to is that brawl fools are to naive or foolish to see that esports all favored the fast paced, fun, and technical games. You want smash 4 to be accepted because finally! A smash game that has been watered down enough that anyone can just press buttons and have things happen with out all that messy needed to have technical prowess that comes from the two good smash games, but if you could read the tea leaves you'd see a game like this was doomed from the start.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JICUzFXN3uo

How many entrances did brawl have at apex? I forget..Was it more or less than smash 64?


And i'll leave you with what Kage the Warrior said in Fighterpida's video on brawl.

"Brawl destroys families. Few people will forget the dark day brawl entered their lives."

http://youtu.be/7o8yWSmkMMQ?t=8m10s (Watch from 8:10 onward for pure gold)

While I can understand where you're coming from, I can also see that you're a fairly new member. (As far as Smashboards is concerned) Now, while length of membership may not count for much, I don't think you can call others children in the Smash community when you, yourself, are one. All Smashes deserve a spotlight. Just because one is less technical and more defensive than the other doesn't mean it deserves less attention from the masses. Don't get me wrong. I hate playing Smash 4. It's not my style. But just because I don't like a game doesn't mean it is "boring" or any less fit for competitive play.

 

[Clavaat]

What makes a game a competitor in the competitive market is the trifecta: Fast game play, Fun, technical prowess.

What the **** are you even talking about? By your standards USF4 is not competitive. Hell, by your standards, most fighting games aren't competitive. Are you implying that Melee, RTS games, and Quake are the only competitive games in existence? Either this is what you believe, or you are putting a ridiculous amount of effort into trolling.

 

[Riposte__]

I'm sure there are others who think this way, but great post my friend.

On a side note I don't know a single pro smash player that actually hates other smash games.

Then you dont watch melee player's streams.
"This game sucks" -Chillindude858
"What do I think about smash 4? Melee has over 1k players already." -Hbox
"This isn't a game im going to waste my time with"-Mang0 (Leffen also said something like this)

 

[Clavaat]

Then you dont watch melee player's streams.
"This game sucks" -Chillindude858
"What do I think about smash 4? Melee has over 1k players already." -Hbox
"This isn't a game im going to waste my time with"-Mang0 (Leffen also said something like this)

And why should this even begin to matter? Who cares what they think? If they aren't playing Smash 4, other people will, and be better at it than them. They're good at Melee, fantastic. That doesn't mean they're good at Smash 4.

 

[FumiQyn]

Dang no love for 64 at all tho?

its because 64 is the best, we are only talking about melee, PM, and smash4 to make those titles more popular. but seriously 64 is the best

 

[Riposte__]

While I can understand where you're coming from, I can also see that you're a fairly new member. (As far as Smashboards is concerned) Now, while length of membership may not count for much, I don't think you can call others children in the Smash community when you, yourself, are one. All Smashes deserve a spotlight. Just because one is less technical and more defensive than the other doesn't mean it deserves less attention from the masses. Don't get me wrong. I hate playing Smash 4. It's not my style. But just because I don't like a game doesn't mean it is "boring" or any less fit for competitive play.

When I was one. Although I only heard about smash boards through the documentary, I still have been competing in what little competitive smash 64 and melee has been around since 2000. Even the year the game was released I got together every one I could find who played smash 64 and had them come over and played round robin tournaments to see who was the best.

What the **** are you even talking about? By your standards USF4 is not competitive. Hell, by your standards, most fighting games aren't competitive. Are you implying that Melee, RTS games, and Quake are the only competitive games in existence? Either this is what you believe, or you are putting a ridiculous amount of effort into trolling.

You have so little an idea on what you are talking about it's laughable. USF4 is fast paced, fun and technical and deserves all the praise in the comp community it gets. I'm sorry you are so desperate to be approved by the gowns ups that you just start making things up.

 

[Clavaat]

You have so little an idea on what you are talking about it's laughable. USF4 is fast paced, fun and technical and deserves all the praise in the comp community it gets. I'm sorry you are so desperate to be approved by the gowns ups that you just start making things up.

I'm going directly by your standards:

Fun - This is an opinion, not even a basis for anything. The fact you can't accept other people find things fun makes you the child.
Fast-paced - USF4 is not fast-paced. I love this game, and play it for what it is, but it is just as if not slower than Smash 4 in terms of game speed. So where do you draw the line in your idiotic standards?
Technical - Every one of these games are technical. There is absolutely no reason to think otherwise.

You have literally no argument. But I'm fully prepared to see a response in which you continue to try to find a reason to bash something you don't like for no reason other than the fact that you suck at it. Please, continue.

 

[Luigisama]

Then you dont watch melee player's streams.
"This game sucks" -Chillindude858
"What do I think about smash 4? Melee has over 1k players already." -Hbox
"This isn't a game im going to waste my time with"-Mang0 (Leffen also said something like this)

Wow did not know that, but I think they said that because the game makes them money. I mean imagine if sport players/actors/etc said to boycott their events they would lose money.

 

[Masked Marill]

Nice to know my opinion is shared, we need to stop hating each other for playing a game barley different to our own. Great job as always Omni.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The crux of all fighting games is decision making, not tech skill, which is merely a means to an end, and while tech skill must play some role in any action game, it isn't what makes or breaks a fighting game.

What makes a game a competitor in the competitive market is the trifecta: Fast game play, Fun, technical prowess.

*Sigh* Why do I even bother?

 

[Riposte__]

Wow did not know that, but I think they said that because the game makes them money. I mean imagine if sport players/actors/etc said to boycott their events they would lose money.

If you think about it, it gives you an idea how abysmal the product (smash 4) is. They had the same opportunity to make the same money as in melee, and yet stuck with the old game. You could lie to your self and say it's only because they are stuck in their ways, or you could realize that brawl 2 just ins't a good game and unlike all the other games where the scene moved on to the newest game, there is a sort of consumer revolt where people would rather play the old game.

This is really unique as it hasn't really ever happened before and the ramification of which are also odd since people playing the old game and pirating it/buying ebay doesn't hurt Nintendo's bottom line, so we'll have to see how it plays out, but we do have some history to go on so brawl 2 will ether be modded, or fade away.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

What makes a game a competitor in the competitive market is the trifecta: Fast game play, Fun, technical prowess.

wow great argument you sure convinced me with those hot opinions

 

[Riposte__]

"M-M-Muh casual gaems"

Fixed.

 

[yume_nikki]

Her'es an idea: Rather then having brawl 2 at Majors that Melee helped build up, have your own majors with your own venues and your own logistics and dont leach off Melee anymore and see how long your scene survives.

Do you know that Apex started as a Brawl major, having Melee pretty much as a side event? It wasn't until 2013 that Melee reached a number of entrants similar to Brawl.

Anyway, gr8 trolling m8. 9/10 would reply again.

 

[Riposte__]

Do you know that Apex started as a Brawl major, having Melee pretty much as a side event? It wasn't until 2013 that Melee reached a number of entrants similar to Brawl.

Anyway, gr8 trolling m8. 9/10 would reply again.

So you have 1, and that is impressive because?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

So let me ask some of you. Are you a Smash fan? Or are you a Melee fan? Or a Smash 4 fan?

Some I don't truly need to ask. I can already tell you are a (insert game) fan, and not a true fan. You don't need to kiss ass and pretend to love a game. But if you are a true fan of the SUPER SMASH BROS. SERIES, like some CLAIM to be, then you would find the great in every game. Even if it isn't your cup of tea competitively.

Is Smash 4 my favorite thus far? Absolutely. Does that mean the others suck? Absolutely not. Each has their own charm, and are better than others in different ways. I for one appreciate Melee for the skill and dedication that players put into it. However, I still prefer Smash 4 because of the many different characters I saw played at Apex. I've never played Project M, so I really have no opinion on that, but Brawl will always have a place in my heart for the inclusion of Snake, Wolf, Lucas and the Ice Climbers.

For those of you flat out saying that another game is, "trash", "inferior", or any other condescending word in the book, shame on you. This type of behavior, to me, is disappointing and not what Smash Bros is about. Smash Bros. is a great series, being a unique fighting game because of what all the different characters bring to the table. Each game has a different feel to it. Each is better in some way, that much is not debatable.

I am not one that wants Melee to die and for Smash 4 to succeed. I want Smash Bros. as a whole to succeed. If that were to force each game to have their separate streams with main events for each, than so be it. I find value in every game.

Hate only breeds hate, people. When Melee fans (who I have read comments from) say, "Smash 4 is trash and is too slow to be competitive" or something else like that, OF COURSE somebody is gonna get pissed. Same thing to people saying, "All Fox, no items, Final Destination".

It is EVERYBODY'S job to stop the hate between fanbases. Not just one fanbase or group of people. Everyone.

 

[THK]

Already been said that OneUnit was more about the donation drive, but why not redefine it that we one community with sub communities, that can get together when it counts. re: Apex Friday, that was with the efforts of players of all 4 games.

We don't have to like each others games, hell, we won't, but we can at least respect each other. You know, just have some common human decency for one other instead of calling other games trash and their players trash.

 

[Riposte__]

Do you know that Apex started as a Brawl major, having Melee pretty much as a side event? It wasn't until 2013 that Melee reached a number of entrants similar to Brawl.

Looking at th Apex page begs to differ with your opinion. Melee seems to be the reason why there still was an Apex during the time between then an now.

 

[HeavyLobster]

My question is why would tech skill make an ounce of difference in the popularity of Melee streams? You could easily make it much less technical by making l-cancelling automatic and wavedashing a single button press and no spectator would be able to tell the difference because all of the top players have drilled until their muscle memory is automatic. Sure some people might appreciate the difficulty of what's being done, but most don't really care, and just go by what they see on stream, and this is apparent when Brawl IC mains fail to receive the same respect for their perfect desynched Blizzard walls.

 

[Iceweasel]

Melee players: The rest of the community will stop hating you when you stop acting like douchebags.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

@ Riposte__ , I've read your every reply, but I'm only going to quote one part of it. Am I correct that this piece is essentially the source of your frustration with Smash 4?

Why cant brawl 2 players keep it to themselves, they are the ones storming our castles wanting to be part of the big boys club with out earning it.

So, it is about the hours you've put into Melee vs. a perceived lack of skill required to pick up and play Brawl or Smash 4? Ok. Just want to make sure I'm on the same page.

What I find interesting about this is you're quoting pros like Leffen and Mang0, but you're ignoring others like Mew2King and newcomers like 6WX who are making waves on the Smash 4 scene. You're also dismissing the fact that many Smash 4 players are like yourself - we've been around since the days of 64, and we move on so we can appreciate the next offering.

I really don't know what you're expecting out of a game that's only been available for a few months. It sounds like you're panning Smash 4 fans because they haven't put the time into it that you've put into Melee, but that's a physical impossibility. It also sounds like you're simply not open to accepting new talent on the scene.

And that's all fine. If that's the person you want to be, if you want to draw your opinions strictly from the words of others in the pro scene, if you want to limit your attention to one game and one game only, that's cool. Keep being that guy. But why attack fellow fans of the same series you love? Why encourage the disruption of Smash 4's finals so you can fulfill your own prophecy of the scene dying out? Many of us have been in it just as long, we just haven't been playing the same game.

I have played since 64, but I have switched games with each new iteration. I am not a newcomer, but right now I do like Smash 4 best because it's new and there's opportunity for seeing new plays. I have new mains, and I'm able to enjoy new styles of play and finding new ways to win. Tell me why I shouldn't be allowed into your "castle," even though I've put the same amount of time and effort into the series as you?

Bottom line, newcomers and new games should not be treated as threats. The only threat you should have to worry about is scaring away potential newcomers with that abrasive attitude - for how can we grow if we become an exclusive community?

 

[(Einz)]

I find Omni's voice kind of annoying lol

 

[Riposte__]

Already been said that OneUnit was more about the donation drive, but why not redefine it that we one community with sub communities, that can get together when it counts. re: Apex Friday, that was with the efforts of players of all 4 games.

We don't have to like each others games, hell, we won't, but we can at least respect each other.

Good point, but respect should be earned and not given. I dont see 'Them' earning respect anytime soon with the straw man arguments against melee players because we don't like a slow, and non-technical game down to "its not melee so its bad"

Being a smash 64, and a melee player there wasn't any decide I saw up till the release of brawl, which every one everywhere who played either smash game saw as an attack on them, and it was. Nintendo made a gap between Melee and brawl players, and brawl players only widened the gap.We just want you to get off our lawn.

My question is why would tech skill make an ounce of difference in the popularity of Melee streams? You could easily make it much less technical by making l-cancelling automatic and wavedashing a single button press and no spectator would be able to tell the difference because all of the top players have drilled until their muscle memory is automatic. Sure some people might appreciate the difficulty of what's being done, but most don't really care, and just go by what they see on stream, and this is apparent when Brawl IC mains fail to receive the same respect for their perfect desynched Blizzard walls.

You really don't get it. Well, if you think that then get back to me when tf2 which causal'd the hell out of quake is number 1 esport fps.

 

[HeavyLobster]

You really don't get it. Well, if you think that then get back to me when tf2 which causal'd the hell out of quake is number 1 esport fps.

I'm not really familiar with competitive fps so it would be nice if you could explain.

 

[EpixAura]

Well, of course Nintendo is not going to endorse a fan made mod of their game, but why take that out on fans of later entries in the series?

How is Nintendo not endorsing a fan mod any different than any company doing that? Is it really surprising?

Smash 4 represents a lot of things people don't like, and it's responsible for a lot of unfortunate things happening to PM. If people weren't supporting Smash 4, this wouldn't be an issue, but they are, and people take their anger out on them.
No one is upset that Nintendo isn't endorsing it. All we wanted was for them to keeping turning a blind eye - not much to ask for given that they had ignored the competitive scene for 13 years. But they've risked the entire game to get a few extra sales on a game that frankly, I don't think is going to last in the competitive scene, after Nintendo had actively tried to shut down Melee. On a larger scale, people are upset that Nintendo is just blatantly using us to get a quick buck, then leaving the community far worse off than when they started 'supporting' it. This is unfortunately a very real possibility.

 

[Riposte__]

@ Riposte__ Blah blah blah

No, Brawl 1 and 2 are no threat to smash 64 and melee. We are not threatened by you, we just want to stop hearing the constant whine of wanting a dumbed down casual game being on the same level as our high level games. I'll say it again: Comparing brawl 1 and 2 to smash 64/melee is like comparing C&C to Star Craft. It just isn't the same level of play no matter how much you want it to be.

 

[Utena]

I realize that's true, but I feel like the community should it make it really obvious that such behavior is not condoned or tolerated. I kind of feel like if a high profile Melee player like Mango basically called out those audience members on the Smash 4 booing/Smash 4 ending cheering that more of those folks might shut up. Not saying everyone would, but it's a start.

mango would probably be the one to start booing

You could easily make it much less technical by making l-cancelling automatic and wavedashing a single button press

wavelanding is a single button press...

I for one appreciate Melee for the skill and dedication that players put into it. However, I still prefer Smash 4 because of the many different characters I saw played at Apex.

melee top 5:
>Marth/Falco
>Peach/Fox
>Fox
>Falco/Fox
>Puff
>Yoshi
>6 unique characters from 26 available.

sm4sh top 5:
>Diddy
>Rosalina/Olimar
>Sheik
>Sonic
>Sheik
>Diddy
>5 unique characters from 51? available.

Brawl will always have a place in my heart for the inclusion of Snake, Wolf, Lucas and the Ice Climbers.

Ice Climbers are from melee buddy

For those of you flat out saying that another game is, "trash", "inferior", or any other condescending word in the book, shame on you. This type of behavior, to me, is disappointing and not what Smash Bros is about. Smash Bros. is a great series, being a unique fighting game because of what all the different characters bring to the table. Each game has a different feel to it. Each is better in some way, that much is not debatable.

Not everyone cares about the entire franchise. Most people don't. I don't see any reason for the communities to unify over the fact that theyre all smash brothers titles.

Hate only breeds hate, people. When Melee fans (who I have read comments from) say, "Smash 4 is trash and is too slow to be competitive" or something else like that, OF COURSE somebody is gonna get pissed. Same thing to people saying, "All Fox, no items, Final Destination".

You don't even know the meme, but Marth beats Fox on FD.

It is EVERYBODY'S job to stop the hate between fanbases. Not just one fanbase or group of people. Everyone.

all of these threads are so full of youthful idealism... but what y'all fail to understand is that there is no hate, you're just jealous of melee's success and want a piece of it, whereas the melee community doesnt care in any way shape or form about your community or your game.

 

[Riposte__]

A thing of utter beauty

Oh, wow. *applaud*
-Edit: Correctly if I'm wrong but wasn't there also so sheiks in top 5?

 

[KenboCalrissian]

@ Riposte__ Blah blah blah

I see that the time for intelligent conversation has ended. I'll leave you to your delusions.

 

[THK]

Good point, but respect should be earned and not given. I dont see 'Them' earning respect anytime soon with the straw man arguments against melee players because we don't like a slow, and non-technical game down to "its not melee so its bad"

Being a smash 64, and a melee player there wasn't any decide I saw up till the release of brawl, which every one everywhere who played either smash game saw as an attack on them, and it was. Nintendo made a gap between Melee and brawl players, and brawl players only widened the gap.We just want you to get off our lawn.

As expected, the Brawl stigma has already poisoned Smash 4.

As a person who is deep in both the FGC and Smash community, what I'm seeing from Melee to Smash 4 is what I'm seeing from FGC to Melee back in the day. "Your game is trash/play a real game/you play that game cause you suck at this game" and those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Hell you could already see it in PM, "Stop playing this ass game/you play this cause you suck at Melee/lol you had to mod a game to make it enjoyable/this trash melee knockoff" etc. What's the old saying? The bullied ends up becoming a bully?

Yes respect should be earned, but you can't expect to receive it when the hostility is there. Now this may not be YOU, specifically, it may not be most people, but it's certainly a very loud group and bad apples are very good at spoiling the bunch.

As for Smash 64, I'm relatively surprised that community is so quiet when they often get shafted. (and then I see this http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...and_the_melee_chant_at_apex/coapbpr?context=3 lol).

 

[Utena]

Oh, wow. *applaud*
-Edit: Correctly if I'm wrong but wasn't there also so sheiks in top 5?

kirbykaze and shroomed got 7th, m2k got 9th.

 

[HeavyLobster]

wavelanding is a single button press...

And nobody is throwing a fit or saying the game takes no skill because of it. Not a single person is claiming the game sucks because wavelanding is too easy, nor would they had grounded wavedashing been an intentional mechanic that works the same way.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

melee top 5:
>Marth/Falco
>Peach/Fox
>Fox
>Falco/Fox
>Puff
>Yoshi
>6 unique characters from 26 available.

sm4sh top 5:
>Diddy
>Rosalina/Olimar
>Sheik
>Sonic
>Sheik
>Diddy
>5 unique characters from 51? available.

Didn't say from the Top 5 specifically. I said from watching at Apex. I saw Marth, Little Mac, Mario, Luigi, Diddy, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Rosalina, Pikachu, Greninja, Yoshi, Link, Sheik, Ganondorf, Zero Suit Samus, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Duck Hunt, Falcon, Ness, Shulk, Villager, Sonic, Bowser Jr., Pit, Dark Pit, Lucario, R.O.B, Olimar...almost 30 out of the total 48 characters.

Melee showed me Marth, Fox, Falco, Luigi, Peach, Samus, Falcon, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Sheik, Ice Climbers and Jigglypuff. That's 12 out of 26. Still a pretty good amount. But Smash 4 has a more diverse cast. Regardless of roster total, it still had more characters that were played. That's why I preferred it.

Ice Climbers are from melee buddy

Nitpicking. Big whoop.

Not everyone cares about the entire franchise. Most people don't. I don't see any reason for the communities to unify over the fact that theyre all smash brothers titles.

Doesn't justify ****ting on others either.

You don't even know the meme, but Marth beats Fox on FD.

Nitpicking again. GG bro

all of these threads are so full of youthful idealism... but what y'all fail to understand is that there is no hate, you're just jealous of melee's success and want a piece of it, whereas the melee community doesnt care in any way shape or form about your community or your game.

Actually, I really don't care about how Melee is, "The best game". I enjoy watching pretty much any Smash game.

Flat out telling other people, "Melee is teh best, all other Smash games (save for Project M) are bad"... Do you expect people who are fans of those games to just take it? If you do, you're sadly mistaken. If Melee fans don't want anything to do with anybody else, then ok. That's a shame. But it's not going to stop me from enjoying Smash Bros 4 competitively.

Your attitude toward the rest of the series is disappointing to me. But if I can't change anybody's mind, then okay. I'm not going to dwell on it.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I never thought that melee would come back as big as it has though... I was the first person to lose faith in smash when Brawl came out.


What I'm saying here is things always work out for the best. Hardly anyone plays brawl anymore because it wasn't the greatest smash game. Melee was not horrible... and it's the biggest competitive smash game right now and probably will be for many years.

The main reason I bashed brawl so much in 2007 and got turned into the poster boy for melee elitism was because I was afraid, and upset that brawl was going to kill the melee scene and it kind of did for a good 3-4 years in my city... that is until Melee came back at EVO and the documentary was released and we re-started melee weeklies.

No, Brawl 1 and 2 are no threat to smash 64 and melee. We are not threatened by you, we just want to stop hearing the constant whine of wanting a dumbed down casual game being on the same level as our high level games.

Dude, shut the **** up and start posting with some respect. Of course they're not a threat to melee... again, it doesn't mean you have to be an asshole about it.

Melee isn't a "high level game" it's a casual and unique fighting game that can be played in a multitude of different ways... including competitively.

This is coming from the man that coined the term "Final destination, fox only" (which was later changed to no items, fox only, final destination)

I support Smash 4. I don't think it should share national tournaments with melee players though, because of attitudes like yours.

I just wish the high level play of smash 4 was less campy... but the game is still young. So long as melee is around, I see no harm in giving smash 4 a chance.

 

[Riposte__]

I see that the time for intelligent conversation has ended. I'll leave you to your delusions.

You are right about one thing, it has ended. It ended with my first statement.

kirbykaze and shroomed got 7th, m2k got 9th.

R.I.P the dream.

And nobody is throwing a fit or saying the game takes no skill because of it. Not a single person is claiming the game sucks because wavelanding is too easy, nor would they had grounded wavedashing been an intentional mechanic that works the same way.

You really can't wrap your head around the fact that history has shown when you take the skill out of technical play, the community at large ignores your game. Have fun being the lone crazy that waves the banner that C&C, tf2, and smash 4 are top esports games.