Omni Releases Controversial Video On Smash 4

[Mr. Cuddles]

I just wanted to say , it was funny when i was hearing about all the people saying PM was dying, a lot smash 4 players were suporting it sayig" its just a mod anyway", but now the discussion is about ssb4 dying and now look at all the smash 4 players getting angry! i was wanted to say how intersting it is when the topic of smash games dying switches to your game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I just wanted to say , it was funny when i was hearing about all the people saying PM was dying, a lot smash 4 players were suporting it sayig" its just a mod anyway", but now the discussion is about ssb4 dying and now look at all the smash 4 players getting angry! i was wanted to say how intersting it is when the topic of smash games dying switches to your game.

PM has a lot more going against it than smash 4 does right now. If we are talking about the subject of "dying games"

 

[Mr. Cuddles]

PM has a lot more going against it than smash 4 does right now. If we are talking about the subject of "dying games"

True , but i just saying that since i never thought we would reach the thought of ssb4 dying. right now the ssb4 community is pretty big and personally, while its not my favorite game, i do not want it to die. ssb4 was the perfect game for casual players and new smash players and stll has plenty of potential as a game. the problem i think , is that they are trying to make the game competetive and make excuses for the game when in reality, the game isnt competetive and probably will never be ( or at least on the level of melee or PM). The sooner we accept that and play the game for what it is , a fun, CASUAL game, the better it will be for the ssb4 community and the smash community as a whole.

 

[Mr. Cuddles]

Ssb4 wont die, atleast not anytime soon

 

[Seagull Joe]

"Merely debating" is an understatement to the crap flingers I've seen and been part of.

tbh, I think the game is fine with Customs off or on, but some of the responses I've seen throughout the past months (particularly in ADHD's post on the competitive board and Seagull Joe's comments in the Competitive Discussion thread) have gotten pretty heated and aggressive.

All this attitude is going to accomplish, imo, is a community split.

It only gets heated when the oppositional side says they're trolling or post "Just adapt" as if that is a real argument.

 

[Perd_Zapley]

I'll preface my comments with the disclaimer that I'm new to the game, in the competitive sense at least. I've literally had Smash 4 for 3 weeks, and before that I'd caught the smash bug about a month prior playing Brawl with friends. Between the fun of actually playing the game, along with the tournament videos I stumbled across just looking for general tips so I could have the edge on my buddies, I really became enamored with Smash and now it's become one of my favorite hobbies and interests.

Needless to say, I've not yet attended any tournaments. I'm simply not to the point in my playing where I feel like it would be worth my time. Plus, there really isn't a Smash scene to be found in my local area, but hopefully I can help to change that.

All that being said, being new to the game, I feel like I'm able to look at things from an outsiders perspective, and also make comparisons to my decade worth of experience in the music community, especially as someone who has organized a number of events. Also, in terms of esports, this is the first game I've ever approached as such. However, I know sports and organization (I happen to work for a local radio affiliate of a certain "world-wide leader" and sports constitutes a good portion of my job), so I think I have some insights to give in this aspect as well.

Omni makes many good points in his video. The title is a bit alarmist, which naturally invites comments and the wrath of those who skim the headline and jump to assumptions without actually viewing the content, but that's just life in 2015. Simply put, I feel like there are a few hurdles facing the Smash 4 community and the game, along with its evolving meta.

First, I think the lack of any real, credible, central leadership within the competitive smash community is a detriment to it's growth as an ESport. It also opens up a bigger opportunity for division between the community and can breed contempt between parties of opinion that makes compromise harder.

Second, let's be honest here, the demographics of this game lean young. Maybe I'm a bit off base, but what's the average age of the community? More in specific, what's the average age of the "everything is OP, ban everything" contingent? My guess is it skews younger. Younger people in general (not always) are more immature, less experienced in dealing with the politics of life, more willing to make rash knee jerk decisions, more likely to do what's best for them and not necessarily a group as a whole, and less likely to be able to think in the long term. Younger people are also more inclined to place blame on someone or something rather than take responsibility for their failures and find a way to get better.

My point here? Veteran presence from the older players, organizers, and enthusiasts is absolutely necessary when shaping the rules of competition and also to be a fair, objective voice of reason for the entire community. Let kids be kids, let adults make decisions.

Lastly, there seems to be plenty of room for compromise on rule sets. Sure, I'm a noob to the game, but c'mon, isn't incessant arguing over 2/3 stocks and 5/6 minutes pretty much splitting hairs in some sense? Why not do pool play as 2 and bracketed matches as 3?

 

[Grass]

I hope smash 4 dies so we can all rally back to brawl. Replayed some brawl and frankly Brawl > Sm4sh.

 

[Mr. Cuddles]

I hope smash 4 dies so we can all rally back to brawl. Replayed some brawl and frankly Brawl > Sm4sh.

Really? come on please dont troll now we were having a semi-educated discussion

 

[Omar_25]

people are still commenting here? wow.

 

[WondrousMoose]

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a "diddy op nerf plz"

 

[Alondite]

I really don't understand where this whole idea of Smash 4 (or any game, frankly) being "less competitive" came from. Do people not understand what competition is?

There are no inherently "more competitive" styles of play. Offensive play isn't "more competitive" than defensive play. That's ridiculous.

Competition is, and has always been about who executes better. It doesn't matter what style of competition (or gameplay) it is. A player is not "less skilled" because he used a strategy that requires less input skill, that's ridiculous. If a player wins, it's because he played better, and that's it. The measuring stick for "playing better" doesn't matter.

Competition only requires one thing, and that's the capacity for one person/team to beat another with informed decision-making and skillful execution. A game only even needs 3 functionally unique and viable options for it to have infinite competitive potential.

Honestly, this is all getting ridiculous. I blame the toxic Melee community for their insistence that any game that doesn't play exactly like Melee is somehow worse or less competitive. Granted, the whole community isn't like that, but there's a considerable potion of it that is.

 

[Firebert95]

Maybe we should just make it 10 stocks, all items, 30 minutes, only Paluntena's Temple, 7 player matches, and customs and equipment. That would solve all the problems! ( =

 

[shininimuss]

I just want to see something new like Smash 4 instead of seeing Melee or Project M everywhere.

smash 4 is brawl i

I really don't understand where this whole idea of Smash 4 (or any game, frankly) being "less competitive" came from. Do people not understand what competition is?

There are no inherently "more competitive" styles of play. Offensive play isn't "more competitive" than defensive play. That's ridiculous.

Competition is, and has always been about who executes better. It doesn't matter what style of competition (or gameplay) it is. A player is not "less skilled" because he used a strategy that requires less input skill, that's ridiculous. If a player wins, it's because he played better, and that's it. The measuring stick for "playing better" doesn't matter.

Competition only requires one thing, and that's the capacity for one person/team to beat another with informed decision-making and skillful execution. A game only even needs 3 functionally unique and viable options for it to have infinite competitive potential.

Honestly, this is all getting ridiculous. I blame the toxic Melee community for their insistence that any game that doesn't play exactly like Melee is somehow worse or less competitive. Granted, the whole community isn't like that, but there's a considerable potion of it that is.

when people say "this game isn't competitive" i think they mean it doesn't have much depth.

 

[Alondite]

smash 4 is brawl i

when people say "this game isn't competitive" i think they mean it doesn't have much depth.

Most people have no idea what the term "depth" even means. Strategy can't get deeper than 3 Yomi (i.e. the "3 option" balance), because it's infinitely looping.

 

[Chinoyz]

deleted because someone else already mentioned it.

 

[saberzerq]

Honestly I think the main problem in the smash 4 community is the amount of complainers we have. Simply put: this is the game we have. It's slower paced than melee and kills happen often at higher percents than in brawl. But I like smash 4. I find it fun. I like the perseverance and mind games that go on in a campy matchup, and I also like having to try and overcome characters that rank higher than my own. I enjoy that it's somewhat slow paced because it gives more time for the player to think and make more fine tuned movements and decisions. My point is that voicing gripes with the game doesn't help anyone or anything. If you don't like it, don't play, and don't try and help us out by telling us how much the game "sucks compared to brawl/melee/whatever." This isn't brawl 2, or melee 3, or even smash 64 #4. It's its own game and really needs to be treated as such and not compared to all of it's sister games. As far as a ruleset, we need to have the leaders of this community get together and decide what rules benefit the game the best, and what rules are either unfounded or hurt the metagame. This isn't a democracy, it's an oligarchy. If you don't have anything on the line (prize winning, tournament placing, etc.) you don't get a say in how the game should play in a tournament setting. Tournaments rules are for tournament players. If you play the game at home, play it however you want. That's the beauty of smash, the customization and options are almost endless.

TL;DR If you like smash 4, play smash 4, talk about it, and enjoy. If you don't like smash 4, you have no business playing smash 4, talking about smash 4, or telling others they can't enjoy smash 4. Go back to what you like doing.

 

[Kraetyz]

Play the game.
Accept the game for what it is.
Let it develop.

This is omni-important (see what I did there?). Stop trying to force your game into becoming competitive. Play it. Have fun with it. If it turns out you can compete in it and that people want to see you compete in it, it will happen. Forcing "e-sports" is ********, and has been since the label first appeared.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

Smash 4 is not that campy... Sure some characters play a stronger defense, but what about diddy, sheik, sonic.
3 high tier characters that require a strong offense.
now that people are getting better Im seeing less time outs, and less camping all together.

 

[Javln Mastr]

I didn't even pay attention and see the thumbnail, and I almost bursted out with laughter 1:09 XD
But seriously, I'm not gonna even bother writing out my opinions and thoughts, not read the comments for this one... but I will make this nearly arbitrary comment because that face was brilliant X'D x2

 

[Seal]

you obviously didn't undertand what he meant when he said bigger, there's more characters, custom moves, good online play, more stages etc.

Misinterpreted it. My b.

However my point about him being ignorant still stands.

Still, I heard a lot of the entrants in Melee that were no shows did it to purposely make the game seem like it had more entrants than Smash 4, at least that is what people were saying on reddit at the time when people were bragging about it around the new venue.

Interesting. Can I get a source on that please?

 

[Problem2]

Most people have no idea what the term "depth" even means. Strategy can't get deeper than 3 Yomi (i.e. the "3 option" balance), because it's infinitely looping.

wow, so like, rock-paper-scissors is the pinnacle of depth then right??

 

[Chinaux]

Maybe so, but it still improves on some of Brawl's gameplay.

That's still subjective, lol.

 

[Claire Diviner]

That's still subjective, lol.

Subjective or not, I stick by my words.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Misinterpreted it. My b.

However my point about him being ignorant still stands.




Interesting. Can I get a source on that please?

I'd have to dig through reddit and I really don't think it would be worth the time, but some people were reporting hearing about that.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[DestinNotDustin]

I'd have to dig through reddit and I really don't think it would be worth the time, but some people were reporting hearing about that.

I don't know, brother... Sounds far fetched that people would go that far to prove a point on the internet.

But then again...

 

[SAUS]

Now I don't want to go all anti-Melee, but one must admit, this whole thing about the community not being united is almost entirely because of the Melee Elitists.

The people who are going to like Smah 4 are the people who are open to change. The people who are open to change are the people who liked Brawl for what it was, and didn't compare it to Melee.

Besides for the people who are hooked on Melee and only Melee, nobody really sticks to one single Smash game.

Nobody only plays Brawl and thinks everything else is inferior. Same with Smash 64 and 4.

I'm not saying all people who think Melee is the best Smash game are the problem. It's fine to have an opinion on a game series, and have a favorite in a franchise, but the ones that refuse to play anything but Melee need to step up, and try to accept new things, for the sake of the Smash community.

I don't see how this is a problem. If the melee players are not doing anything to the smash 4 community, good or bad, then why should they have to come play your game?

The way I see it, I don't care about smash 4 at all. I won't accept people bashing it for no reason, but I also won't be anywhere where it matters. I won't even be watching the matches going on in the first place. I don't play the game and I wouldn't do something to hurt it. I simply just don't care.

If smash 4 players want to jump into melee, I will accept them with open arms. I will try my best to teach them and get them acquainted with the other awesome melee players I know. I'm sure the smash 4 community would do the same for me if I were to try to get into it.

Saying melee players like me are "not open to change" is rather insulting. It's like saying we're being rude or negative by not playing the new game. Who said I even wanted a new one in the first place? Why can't I enjoy the awesomeness that I have found in melee? There's so much to explore that even frequent spectators and even probably most players don't understand at all - they're not even scratching the surface of it. The fact that melee is fun to watch is more of a bonus. Trust me. The top players out there don't play melee because it's fun to watch / it's fast / you press lots of buttons / they're good at it / they don't want to experiment with a new game. They play melee because it is amazingly deep and amazingly fun, and smash 4 doesn't offer what they want.

 

[Grass]

Really? come on please dont troll now we were having a semi-educated discussion

Hey look, people can't tell sarcasm via text. Let's all point and laugh.

 

[EpixAura]

Smash 4 isn't going to die as long as people love the game, and with the incredible amount of entrants the game has had at Apex and what they will have at EVO, I don't think the game dying will actually be happening in the immediate future. People are still figuring things out (I don't mean the overused "the game is still young" argument. I mean people are establishing rules and coming to a consensus about various things). 2 stock has become the standard format. Customs are generally legal at most events. All the debate and arguments will still last for some time, but they are approaching an end. Once everything settles down, the game will be in a good position. The community just needs to reach that point faster.
Personally, I think the best thing for Smash 4 is to avoid being at the same events as Melee. Of course, this means less exposure for the game, but lack of exposure is nowhere near a problem for the Smash 4, and I don't think this will change things. The game won't have to endure nearly as much criticism, and I think it would help the ruleset evolve much faster. Melee would be happier, PM could take Sm4sh's place at Melee events, and hypothetically, everyone wins. Of course, I'm not sure things would work out exactly like that. Melee and PM would certainly benefit, but things could backfire for the Smash 4 community. All the same, I think it's worth a try. The game has plenty of time to try new things. Anyone who thinks it's going to die within the next year is sadly mistaken.

Frankly, I absolutely hate Smash 4. As a PM player, I feel like it's indirectly hurting the competitive scene for PM. As a Melee player, I simply don't like sitting through Smash 4 to watch what I'm actually there for. I'm usually one of the first people to insult the game, or make a sarcastic remark when I see someone timing someone out. I don't really care if the game dies, and for a very long while outright hoped it would. However, that's not going to happen, and I think separating Smash 4 from the rest of the games is the best possible outcome for every game, anyway. Of course, I'm biased as all hell, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

 

[Alondite]

wow, so like, rock-paper-scissors is the pinnacle of depth then right??

Thanks for proving my point. No, RPS is not because all 3 options are the same. There's no depth because there's no reason to ever pick one option over another. If you'd scroll up a bit, you'd see my post that said that the options have to be functionally unique.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

However, that's not going to happen, and I think separating Smash 4 from the rest of the games is the best possible outcome for every game, anyway. Of course, I'm biased as all hell, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

D1 and Prog both said this is a terrible idea.

And frankly I find it to be awful as well.

 

[Omar_25]

Smash 4 isn't going to die as long as people love the game, and with the incredible amount of entrants the game has had at Apex and what they will have at EVO, I don't think the game dying will actually be happening in the immediate future. People are still figuring things out (I don't mean the overused "the game is still young" argument. I mean people are establishing rules and coming to a consensus about various things). 2 stock has become the standard format. Customs are generally legal at most events. All the debate and arguments will still last for some time, but they are approaching an end. Once everything settles down, the game will be in a good position. The community just needs to reach that point faster.
Personally, I think the best thing for Smash 4 is to avoid being at the same events as Melee. Of course, this means less exposure for the game, but lack of exposure is nowhere near a problem for the Smash 4, and I don't think this will change things. The game won't have to endure nearly as much criticism, and I think it would help the ruleset evolve much faster. Melee would be happier, PM could take Sm4sh's place at Melee events, and hypothetically, everyone wins. Of course, I'm not sure things would work out exactly like that. Melee and PM would certainly benefit, but things could backfire for the Smash 4 community. All the same, I think it's worth a try. The game has plenty of time to try new things. Anyone who thinks it's going to die within the next year is sadly mistaken.

Frankly, I absolutely hate Smash 4. As a PM player, I feel like it's indirectly hurting the competitive scene for PM. As a Melee player, I simply don't like sitting through Smash 4 to watch what I'm actually there for. I'm usually one of the first people to insult the game, or make a sarcastic remark when I see someone timing someone out. I don't really care if the game dies, and for a very long while outright hoped it would. However, that's not going to happen, and I think separating Smash 4 from the rest of the games is the best possible outcome for every game, anyway. Of course, I'm biased as all hell, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

There is a problem with this. You say that pm could take the place of smash 4 at some tournaments, but pm can't be at some tournaments because of possible issues with nintendo (maybe). At least this is what I think.

 

[EpixAura]

There is a problem with this. You say that pm could take the place of smash 4 at some tournaments, but pm can't be at some tournaments because of possible issues with nintendo (maybe). At least this is what I think.

Nintendo isn't going to do anything about PM unless they're forced to, by, for example, running it at a tournament Nintendo is sponsoring. However, I don't really think that Nintendo would actually sponsor an event if Smash 4 wasn't there in the first place. The loss of the possibility of Nintendo sponsorship for a lot of Melee events would be a downside, but all Nintendo does is provide setups, which the community has been doing by itself for the last 14 years.

 

[B.A.M.]

Stuff.

Praxis I am in total agreement with what Omni and you have stated. Its something I have been stressing in the West Coast. I would even put it further and state that this new player to veteran ratio is also a causation for Brawl's death (relatively speaking). There's still myriads of tech that people in the Smash Labs (myself included) have yet to see be used in its current metagame. I also truly believe that Metaknight ( yes he was by far the best character in the game) and his domination over the metagame also has to do with the amount of veteran and new player ratio. While there were Melee players transitioning to Brawl for a bit, the majority of them disregarded the game and quickly left. Brawl was left with few solid Melee players that became top level Brawl players, new blood, and M2K. M2K being one of the greatest Smashers of all time. For anyone who knows the metaknight boards, the activity there and the discussions between high/top level players was numerous. Metaknight players who share M2Ks notes with those that show promise and so forth. You literally had the top 5 smasher in the world playing the best character and advancing the metagame with top level brawl players. M2K was so ahead of the curve ( even when u account for other metaknights) his play is virtually identical from 09-13. Let that sink in for a moment. This dude was ahead of the metagame by 4 freakin years. It was absolutely silly.

Whereas you had other character that may have had promise yet didnt an iota of the player base led by a top veteran like M2K. Perfect example Larry Lurr, he pretty built the Falco metagame by himself then later on was aided by Shugo, Masha, and Kasper. Compare that same list to Metaknight and its absurd.

Anyways ( yeah sorry about that tangent) I believe Smash 4 is in even more extreme state. I have always said this about the Brawl/ Smash 4 community as much as it pains me to say it: the community sucks. There are great individuals however the community seldom tries to push the boundaries of the game, insistent on a whiny childish behavior ( which is to be expected seeing as Brawl virtually started from scratch in terms of a competitive scene due to the disregard of Melee players). Now there are more casuals and their voice is more whiny and carries a greater weight. It is fine if you wish to play the game casually; thats great! the game can be played anyway! But people arent true to themselves and they call themselves competitors when they dont have an inkling of what that truly entails. This is the flaw of Smash 4.

I truly believe the game is better than Brawl though some Brawl vets think otherwise ( and understandably so). There aren't as many overt ATs like brawl however there are more option selects ( something VERY few people used in brawl), tons of movement techs ( yes they were present in brawl( us sonics used them all the time since '08) but they are exponentially stronger in this latest iteration) that arent being utilized, and a (imo) more complex offstage game that we are BARELY diving into. There are far more combos and ( one of my favorite things) tech chasing is far more prevalent in Smash 4 and imho will become more so. The follow up games right now are imo subpar in the community but that is slowly changing.

This leads me to my next issue, THIS GAME IS NOT EVEN A YEAR OLD. People continue to make inferences on things they not only dont understand as it is now, but actively infer that the game can be define already as is. People as far as Im concerned are still playing "brawl" in Smash 4 in the current top meta; people need to play "Smash 4" and then draw their conclusions.

Which leads me to my final point of contention, freaking Customs. I dont necessarily believe Customs will ruin the game; they may actually better it after all. The problem is we dont even know the game in itself to make that wager imo. Casuals are screaming the meta has been figured out and is becoming stale ( something that is proven wrong in the majority of fighting game communities time and time again). Even down to how a few people on Twitter decided the fate of Smash 4 in its largest tournament yet due to a gargantuan gap in experienced community members. As u stated @Praxis and @Omni, the reasoning for customs is pretty much easy way out of attempting to push, learn and adapt. If the community had sat down, had a thorough discussion about customs, and then came to a conclusion to use customs ( something that should take at least a year or 2 imo) then Id be all for it. I mean ( and ive said this to some of the custom advocates many times to do so) these guys are pushing for customs so hard and yet arent even educating people on these things. From Day1 of this Customs project, they shouldve sat down and figured how to combat Donkey Kong's Wind-Copter among other customs, so that people can accurately discern if customs is a good way to go. But theres nothing. Absolutely nothing ( hopefully I can change that with some vids im in the progress of making). but its utterly stupid. Prove Customs arent broken and can be properly implemented in this game. The burden of proof should be on these advocates. Sakurai himself noted that he didnt spend time to truly balance customs, which should already be a red flag.


I just hate the knee jerk reactions we have in this community right now. Everyone in the world is a Smash aficionado, spouting false frame data, stating with the utmost conviction x,y, and z are broken because...reasons. I am honestly grateful for you Praxis, Omni, D1, False, Keitaro, Gimr and a few other individuals i cant remember at the moment. Because no one is stepping up to the plate to build a proper foundation within this community. Whether you are pro eSports or not, having proper leaders to build us all up is a good thing. A good thing that we are want of.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Prove Customs arent broken and can be properly implemented in this game. The burden of proof should be on these advocates. Sakurai himself noted that he didnt spend time to truly balance customs, which should already be a red flag.

That's not how banning works.

You prove it is broken then ban it, not the other way around.

 

[B.A.M.]

"the game is still young" argument.

but it is? lol. Just because something is a hackneyed argument doesnt mean it loses its legitimacy. Honestly is just like ( patches aside) when PM came out and people automatically aside from the new characters, everything was pretty much figured out because its just a transfer of melee. Yes they share a ton of similarities but theyre a ton of differences. Differences people learned as they played and pushed the game. Its just absolutely silly and complete hubris for people to believe they know exactly where the meta is going to be less than a year in. Even Brawl it took over a half a decade for people to realize that ZSS is godlike. Or Ice's initial projections were foolhardy.

My greatest hope for this game is for this community to not only blossom but also get to the point where SF players begin to pick it up. Because imo ( obviously I could be wrong) this game shares alot more traditional FG characteristics that people realize. Most players perceptions are skewed because Smash is the only game theyve played competitive. So if the complexity does fit within their paradigm of competitive complexity which is derived from Smash then its simple. They are very little "ATs" in SF in comparison to Smash ( that term needs to die btw as people continue to get misled in Smash thinking that knowing ATs= being great cuz you are advanced) . However, the complexity of SF is huge. People need to just take the game as is and learn from there. Its the same reason Brawl was abandoned in its first years. People thought "oh its a Smash game, must be just like Melee" despite ever iteration within the franchise being vastly different.

Anyways good video. 10/10. would buy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

but it is? lol. Just because something is a hackneyed argument doesnt mean it loses its legitimacy. Honestly is just like ( patches aside) when PM came out and people automatically aside from the new characters, everything was pretty much figured out because its just a transfer of melee. Yes they share a ton of similarities but theyre a ton of differences. Differences people learned as they played and pushed the game. Its just absolutely silly and complete hubris for people to believe they know exactly where the meta is going to be less than a year in. Even Brawl it took over a half a decade for people to realize that ZSS is godlike. Or Ice's initial projections were foolhardy.

My greatest hope for this game is for this community to not only blossom but also get to the point where SF players begin to pick it up. Because imo ( obviously I could be wrong) this game shares alot more traditional FG characteristics that people realize. Most players perceptions are skewed because Smash is the only game theyve played competitive. So if the complexity does fit within their paradigm of competitive complexity which is derived from Smash then its simple. They are very little "ATs" in SF in comparison to Smash ( that term needs to die btw as people continue to get misled in Smash thinking that knowing ATs= being great cuz you are advanced) . However, the complexity of SF is huge. People need to just take the game as is and learn from there. Its the same reason Brawl was abandoned in its first years. People thought "oh its a Smash game, must be just like Melee" despite ever iteration within the franchise being vastly different.

Anyways good video. 10/10. would buy.

Ehhh....I can't say that is true for PM as much as I'm not a fan of it. The Melee top tier, oh certainly that was figured out.

Characters with larger changes, no way.

 

[B.A.M.]

That's not how banning works.

You prove it is broken then ban it, not the other way around.

???? what on Earth are you talking about. Im talking about them wanting to implement Customs. Im saying they need to show the masses in a proper manner why customs should be in the game. We started the base game no customs, we arent banning; we are adding dude.

 

[B.A.M.]

There were alot of hitbox and hurtbox changes that happen with some melee top tier in PM. They werent radically different but theyre differences that do matter and it takes time to break it down relative to a new host of MUs.


The point being that things take time to learn even the slightest of changes. We are sitting on a brand new game here.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

???? what on Earth are you talking about. Im talking about them wanting to implement Customs. Im saying they need to show the masses in a proper manner why customs should be in the game. We started the base game no customs, we arent banning; we are adding dude.

Again, this is not not banning works.

Everything should be legal initially, only reason it wasn't right away is because APEX and needing to unlock and set-up til people figured them out.

They should be legal then banned, not the other way around.

There were alot of hitbox and hurtbox changes that happen with some melee top tier in PM. They werent radically different but theyre differences that do matter and it takes time to break it down relative to a new host of MUs.


The point being that things take time to learn even the slightest of changes. We are sitting on a brand new game here.

I agree.

But I still don't think anyone that was a top character changed *that* much compared to what others got. If you were played a lot in Melee you more or less care over no problem.

This isn't as true for a lot of the cast like Lucario is a complete 180.