Olimar

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Recently, the main matchup chart has changed Olimar from being Neutral Vs. Zelda to being a Zelda counter.

Olimar is hard, true, but he's frighteningly easy to edgehog. Also, he doesn't outrange din's fire with pikmin throw so he can't outcamp you in most cases.

The matchup is essentially a battle between two players that BOTH want to defend... the question is, who is forced to approach? and if neither is more than the other, than who is better at it?

really I just want some insight here:

Who should be favoured in this matchup, if anyone.

Also, what are some good strategies for fighting Vs. Olimar?

 

[Ztarfish]

Someone really needs to make a central matchup thread.
At the rate this is going we're gonna have individual threads for each character all throughout the boards.

Anyway I don't really know anything about Zelda vs. Olimar since I've never really played an Olimar.

However Olimar probably has the advantage cause he's short, and broken.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I tried to make a central matchup thread... you can search for it and revive it if you want.. it just wasn't getting enough traffic to stay afloat

 

[popsofctown]

A good Olimar can outcamp a good Zelda. He moves to medium range, where he can hit you with pikmin, and you can hit with Din's. But Din's has so much after lag, and enough prelag, that he can air dodge constantly, and still have downtime. He can use that downtime to throw pikmin, or pick more. If you knock them off, sure you'll take no damage, but it gives him time to pick and throw more, and he'll eventually pressure you enough to get a grab. If you continue to do Din's with pikmin on you, obviously your damage will get bad fast.

Spacing wise, you would be able to win if it were long range. But the stages aren't big enough, if you move back he follows you, and you reach the edge, so you can't get the spacing you want.

As for Nayru's love, there is a magic range such that Olimar can always punish nayru's love with a grab.

So Olimar outcamps, and wins.

The best strategy for fighting Olimar with Zelda is Down Special. I'm not going to investigate any other strategies against Olimar, because I firmly believe the disadvantage is that bad. If i started the match as Zelda, i would probably even transform, straight off, and let him do whatever he wanted to me to start off the match.

 

[imdavid]

usmash just ownages olimar on the bright side

 

[psike]

I think Olimar does have a slight advantage, though its mainly because Zelda has a lot of slow power moves that are used frequently by most players and Olimar is one of the fastest players in the game at punishing players. However, if Zelda uses her B more than average and sticks with some of the faster attacks like her nair it isn't as bad as popsofctown makes it out to be. But then again, maybe I've not played a good enough Olimar.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I know sheik is better at edgeguarding, and that's the primary way that you kill olimar, so maybe there's a good reason to switch there.... but I've never had special problems vs. olimar.

 

[blink777]

Let me just say that I suck hardcore against Olimar. It may just be that I haven't played against him enough and haven't a clue what he's doing half the time, but I just don't have fun.

However, if Zelda uses her B more than average and sticks with some of the faster attacks like her nair it isn't as bad as popsofctown makes it out to be.

I dunno. I'm a big fan of NL, and if there's anything I know how to do in this game, it's use that move. But against Olimar, it just doesn't seem to work for me. Can't even bother trying to reflect his Pikmin, because he'll just F-Smash through it. He's able to recover and punish from actually being hit with NL so fast that using it as a setup or bad-spacing punisher is only really good for the damage you get off it.

But like I said, I just plain suck against this guy.

 

[psike]

Yeah, I guess against a good Olimar you would need to tone the B down so it is less predictable. The nair should definitely help a little bit as well as the neutral A.

 

[popsofctown]

to see the fully developed form of this matchup, you have to play an Olimar who's dodges Din's at 90 or 95%, whistles almost instantly if you reflect a non-purple, and shields Zelda's nair when it's used as an approach.

 

[psike]

I haven't played an Olimar that's got the whistle down : )

 

[Puddin]

Then you haven't played a good enough Olimar. I'll admit I don't use the whistle much, I do on occasion and can usually pull it off when I do use it, but most Olimar players will take advantage of this a lot more, especially with Dins Fire explosions all around them XD I play a friend who uses Zelda, but he isn't very good. One match all he used was Dins Fire, I'm not kidding, not like there is anything wrong with it but it got extremely annoying and predictable.

I haven't played many Zelda, in fact the only one I've fought is the one mentioned above so I really don't have that much experience with her, I do think thats a bad match up chart though

I suppose keep him away with Dins Fire? as far as I know Olimars ground game beats Zeldas, a better Fsmash range, quick Dsmash, awesome ground game, so keep him away I guess, fortunately for Zelda Olimar is fairly light weight, so a Dins Fire at high percent could KO him. But like I said I don't have much experience.

 

[Somacruz2]

Olimar is very susceptible to the D-tilt lock, if anything, i use D-Tilt, D-Tilt D-Smash Din's fire, to rack up damage and use din's and F-smash, D-smash to keep racking up damage until i can kill with with usmash or utilt or edgehog him. also if your gonna counter pick a stage, counter pick rainbow cruise, olimar can't do anything on it. while zleda can hold herself pretty well there.

 

[Aeyr]

I still say the match is even. Then again my friend's main is Olimar and we're quite even when we fight. There are several things that olimar does that can easily catch Zelda off guard but the same can be said about Zelda.

 

[Somacruz2]

I still say the match is even. Then again my friend's main is Olimar and we're quite even when we fight. There are several things that olimar does that can easily catch Zelda off guard but the same can be said about Zelda.

Well Hyde has Olimar down to the bone, it just seems like there's nothing i can do when i fight olimar, he always seem s to outprioritize me.

 

[DanGR]

errrrr...zelda doesn't outcamp olimar...thus zelda has to approach.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Din's > Pikmin throw

thus, zelda outcamps

 

[Aeyr]

Din's > Pikmin throw

thus, zelda outcamps

wow....this is utterly wrong.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

Boo!

No that I've scared away your nubby fear of Olimar I'll bestow knowledge of why the match is dead even from my side and if Aeyr would care to he can tell you what makes the match hard for him.

D-Tilt-> Upsmash
Upsmash
Forward smash-> Upsmash
Nair FF -> Up Smash
Fair FF -> Dtilt
Dtilt-Dtilt-Dtilt-Dtilt-Dtilt-Dtilt-Down Smash

if you have problems with the match watch Aeyr vs. me its always close or just a all out war.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

wow....this is utterly wrong.

in what way? pikmin throw is much more spamable, but it has to be much closer range to use it and it's far less damaging. at the very least, din's makes olimar come in close enough to toss. and a lot of zelda's moves can kill pikmin pretty well.

 

[Aeyr]

in what way? pikmin throw is much more spamable, but it has to be much closer range to use it and it's far less damaging. at the very least, din's makes olimar come in close enough to toss. and a lot of zelda's moves can kill pikmin pretty well.

it's quite useless in how olimar can easily approach a bit, dodge a dins, spam pikmin back while your din'ing, and dodge teh blast while you take damage from his pikmin.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

edgedawg listen to Aeyr. We;ve played this through before and that's why it doesn't happen. The only time I see din's is as an approach or when I'm far far away recoverying

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

hmm... I guess I can seee that, still, I don't find the matchup favouring olimar.

he's just so dang easy to edgedguard, and Zelda's DSmash puts him where he's forced to tether to recover.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

The match up is even.

There is no point in debating that Olimar is countered by Zelda now if you are done with saying Olimar is a counter to Zelda.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

in what way? pikmin throw is much more spamable, but it has to be much closer range to use it and it's far less damaging. at the very least, din's makes olimar come in close enough to toss. and a lot of zelda's moves can kill pikmin pretty well.

Why would Olimar be far enough away to let you spam the fire repeatedly, and not know how to airdodge, shield, or whistle? He's better at medium range anyway. Medium being in range to toss, grab, or fsmash.

Pikmin toss is more damaging. Get a white one on, grab them and watch the damage multiply. Or it occupies you in a way that forces you to do something about it, or take 20-50%. A good player will be able to take advantage of this.

 

[DanGR]

I think Olimar counters Zelda, but that's my opinion. You can watch my videos if you wonder why I think so.

-Olimar outcamps Zelda, thus zelda has to approach
-She doesn't have enough approaching options to leave Olimar guessing, thus it's easy for Olimar to play defensively.(plus Olimar has an insane defense)
-Olimar outranges all of her moves with fsmash and grab.
-Zelda isn't fast enough counter Olimar's combos effectively.(ex. Dthrow, fair, dthrow, upsmash will work every time at low percents)
-Olimar's aerial defense>Zelda's aerials
-Olimar's ground defense>Zelda's ground game

if you think I'm wrong, name one approach that works.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think Olimar counters Zelda, but that's my opinion. You can watch my videos if you wonder why I think so.

-Olimar outcamps Zelda, thus zelda has to approach
-She doesn't have enough approaching options to leave Olimar guessing, thus it's easy for Olimar to play defensively.(plus Olimar has an insane defense)
-Olimar outranges all of her moves with fsmash and grab.
-Zelda isn't fast enough counter Olimar's combos effectively.(ex. Dthrow, fair, dthrow, upsmash will work every time at low percents)
-Olimar's aerial defense>Zelda's aerials
-Olimar's ground defense>Zelda's ground game

if you think I'm wrong, name one approach that works.

All approaches with zelda that she has against anyone really, are situational.

 

[Puddin]

Not saying this is a way, but when Dins fire stops working for my Spammy friend, he starts teleporting right on top of me just to get some damage, maybe not the most effective way to approach though

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

FW is actually a decent approach so long as it's used correctly. the problem is you likely won't encounter a zelda who can use it well enough.

 

[DanGR]

you're silly.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

you're silly.

If you aren't playing a zelda that knows how to use it effectively, that's not my fault.

 

[Puddin]

But you even said that it's hard to find a Zelda that can use it effectively...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

But you even said that it's hard to find a Zelda that can use it effectively...

which is completely true... it's just stupid to assume that Zelda CAN'T use FW to approach just because you haven't seen it done.

 

[popsofctown]

The notion that the FW approach is any more than a situational toss-in, is ridiculous. The move is easily shielded by any good player, because you announce the moment of a one-hit hitbox a long time before that hitbox appears.

He's not assuming that Zelda can't use FW to approach just because he hasn't seen it done. He has seen it done. It worked very effectively and racked up lots of damage: during the first three days he had Brawl. After that it was never a good approach. He now shields it without fail. There's no finesse that some masterful Zelda player can use to make the move hit, you cannot alter the early, precise announcement of when the hitbox comes, and as a result you cannot use this as an approach. It is the equivalent of implying that someone is not being fair to Warlock Punch, because they just haven't seen a good Ganondorf yet, there's nothing you can do to make the move any more useful against an opponent who isn't in hitstun or confused or new to the matchup or otherwise impaired.

Moves like Falcon Punch and Bowser's Fsmash do have a place, but never as an approach. They are used situationally against opponents with limited options, or who are really, really not expecting it. I sincerely hope that you think FW is an approach because you are working off a different definition of the word "approach", not because the people you play against actually suck that bad.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The notion that the FW approach is any more than a situational toss-in, is ridiculous. The move is easily shielded by any good player, because you announce the moment of a one-hit hitbox a long time before that hitbox appears.

He's not assuming that Zelda can't use FW to approach just because he hasn't seen it done. He has seen it done. It worked very effectively and racked up lots of damage: during the first three days he had Brawl. After that it was never a good approach. He now shields it without fail. There's no finesse that some masterful Zelda player can use to make the move hit, you cannot alter the early, precise announcement of when the hitbox comes, and as a result you cannot use this as an approach. It is the equivalent of implying that someone is not being fair to Warlock Punch, because they just haven't seen a good Ganondorf yet, there's nothing you can do to make the move any more useful against an opponent who isn't in hitstun or confused or new to the matchup or otherwise impaired.

Moves like Falcon Punch and Bowser's Fsmash do have a place, but never as an approach. They are used situationally against opponents with limited options, or who are really, really not expecting it. I sincerely hope that you think FW is an approach because you are working off a different definition of the word "approach", not because the people you play against actually suck that bad.

No not at all. FW is a good approach. it's not a good aproach to rely on, but it's a perfectly good aproach to toss in every once in a while during a match... and so long as you are good at knowing where you'll land (yes, there are 16 possibilities) then you have the potential to use it well... thy might always know WHEN you are going to reapear, but not where.

 

[DanGR]

did you really just say that? O_o

anyways, I'd more more than happy to answer your questions.

 

[Aeyr]

No not at all. FW is a good approach. it's not a good aproach to rely on, but it's a perfectly good aproach to toss in every once in a while during a match... and so long as you are good at knowing where you'll land (yes, there are 16 possibilities) then you have the potential to use it well... thy might always know WHEN you are going to reapear, but not where.

NO...god...no....
as for olimar being a zelda counter DanGr...again
"no....god...no..."

 

[DanGR]

STH-You said Din's fire beats pikmin throw, so you couldn't have ever played a good Olimar, or a decent Olimar... or a post-infancy Olimar, or even an Olimar with at least one hand.

Aeyr-Just wondering, but what makes you think the match is even?

 

[Aeyr]

STH-You said Din's fire beats pikmin throw, so you couldn't have ever played a good Olimar, or a decent Olimar... or a post-infancy Olimar, or even an Olimar with at least one hand.

Aeyr-Just wondering, but what makes you think the match is even?

It's mostly due to the fact that I play against an olimar almost all the time. Easily he is gimped, yes. at 60%, he easily gets trapped within a d-tilt chain followed by a d-smash which if near the edge will kill, or guarentee an edge hog. Close range Zelda has a benefit and not to mention that if the olimar misses his attacks are quite easily punished. I'll ask Hyde to add more to it later but I don't see how you can say that Olimar is a hard counter when, no offense to pops, he is the only Zelda you play - and that Zelda needs a lot of work....

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

NO...god...no....

Dude... FW is a perfectly legitimate approach if you pwepper it in here and there.