Olimar

[Ztarfish]

Dude... FW is a perfectly legitimate approach if you pwepper it in here and there.

I don't believe I've ever seen that. And I like only play Zeldas.

 

[popsofctown]

@ Aeyr
My Zelda does need a lot of work, I've been increasingly worried about it lately. DanGR's experience with the matchup has pointed to hard counter, I'm sure if he's open-minded he could see that different Zelda play styles might lead to a matchup that is neutral or soft counter.

On the other hand, from seeing your Zelda I think you have an abnormally good approach game, which might be giving you an easier time with the matchup.

 

[DanGR]

Edit: I am open minded and I'm willing to discuss this in a civilized manner if you want to.

It's mostly due to the fact that I play against an olimar almost all the time. Easily he is gimped, yes. at 60%, he easily gets trapped within a d-tilt chain followed by a d-smash which if near the edge will kill, or guarentee an edge hog. Close range Zelda has a benefit and not to mention that if the olimar misses his attacks are quite easily punished. I'll ask Hyde to add more to it later but I don't see how you can say that Olimar is a hard counter when, no offense to pops, he is the only Zelda you play - and that Zelda needs a lot of work....

I play against Zelda all the time, yes, and maybe pops' zelda isn't all that, but that doesn't change my mind. Do you think I'm just better as a player? I don't. I've watched every video of y'all play and I have still come to the conclusion that if the two players are evenly skilled, Olimar will beat Zelda, hard.

Approaching
-Zelda has almost no approaches that work on Olimar. Every single approach that pop's has tried is countered somehow. If he lands a hit, it's b/c I made a bad input or I was distracted or somethin. She just can't take Olimar on IMO. Here's every approach I've seen from pops' zelda:

running grab-gets grabbed
running anything-gets grabbed
empty airdodge to anything-gets grabbed
empty airdodge over my back-gets grabbed
running dodge-gets grabbed
running shield-gets grabbed
FW-dsmashed or sg-ed
fair-gets shieldgrabbed
bair-gets shieldgrabbed
nair-gets shieldgrabbed
dair-gets dsmashed
din's-gets shieldgrabbed
nair over my back-gets dsmashed or shielded and then grabbed
nair>NL in front-gets shieldgrabbed
nair>NL over my back-gets dsmashed

That's everything I can think of. It's all countered by either sging or dsmashing. simple. That's not to mention that I can run at Zelda and fair, upsmash, or fsmash as she runs in or jumps or somethin before she hits my shield or something. Plus the pikmin throw is distracting and every grab before 30% damage is followed up by a very hurtful combo. I've played over 300 matches against Zelda, and I won about(guessing) 85% of the time with Olimar. Pops uses sheik only now, and wins more often then he does with zelda.

Defense
why should Olimar play offensively at all?

Other
-Olimar outranges Zelda on the ground as well. His grab and fsmash are longer than every move Zelda has on the ground.
-Olimar beats her in the air while above as well. She has nothing she can do to get back to the ground safely. Olimar's upair and nair keeps her from doing that.


I'm open for a discussion, but keep in mind that Olimar outcamps Zelda, din's is too easy to dodge and punish with pikmin, and Olimar's ground game>Zelda's.

 

[popsofctown]

well, to play devil's advocate, I'm going to say what approaches i can successfully do to Olimar.

Fair or bair near ledge-> shield damage, pushes olimar offstage.
Piercing Nair->does some damage and some knockback. Requires Olimar's shield to be low.

That's about it. In the interest of two sided argument, i'll try to come up with something else.

 

[DanGR]

Fair or bair near ledge-> shield damage, pushes olimar offstage.
Piercing Nair->does some damage and some knockback. Requires Olimar's shield to be low.

That's about it. In the interest of two sided argument, i'll try to come up with something else.

And if I'm not standing on the edge?

 

[popsofctown]

Then i counter pick Green Greens

 

[Dr. Hyde]

Ah Green Greens. Pops you may want to ask Aeyr about choosing that stage.

... if the two players are evenly skilled, Olimar will beat Zelda, hard.

-Zelda has almost no approaches that work on Olimar.

nair-gets shieldgrabbed

Plus the pikmin throw is distracting and every grab before 30% damage is followed up by a very hurtful combo.
Defense
why should Olimar play offensively at all?

Okay I'll address these point that stuck out to me.

... if the two players are evenly skilled, Olimar will beat Zelda, hard.

Umm Aeyr and I are both evenly matched, this means that he is waay more skilled by this logic, which he would kindly accept, or the match up is even. I hope I'm not a bad player by any lenght but I hope I'm not less of a player than Aeyr.

-Zelda has almost no approaches that work on Olimar.

nair-gets shieldgrabbed

Nair from Zelda does not get shield grabbed. Sorry. Pops you must not be FF correctly otherwise you would be able to instantly do a move. Nair has 0 lag from what I've experienced. And Zelda never should approach with a Dair or Neutral B, EVER.
Sorry once a Zelda comes in and does a Nair trying to grab leads to a dodge which leads to pain.

Also when Olimar chases a Zelda even from a down throw at 0% Zelda can Dodge and avoid getting hit by up smash and up tilt if you are fast enough to do it, I can't.

Olimar misses an aerial against Zelda he is in a world of hurt.
A missed Uair usually lead to a grab attempt by me once I land but since I miss with Uair I'm gonna have lag. Well now Zelda gets to move first and oh the moves that she can do that come out fast. If Olimar does any aerial besides the Nair or a really high Fair that auto cancels there is a stand still for who makes the first move or who ever hits the ground first gets the move. Normally Zelda gets there first.

Plus the pikmin throw is distracting and every grab before 30% damage is followed up by a very hurtful combo.

ummm Nair? Seriously I haven't tested much on my latch areas but I've tried with every pikmin and none stay latched when the Zelda does Nair. Seriously, prove me wrong on this and I'll gladly learn to aim for that magic spot.

Defense
why should Olimar play offensively at all?

Ok after reading above, you should see that camping will not get much accomplished other than refreshing all of Zelda's moves b/c of Nairing all the latches away.

There is no reason to say that this match is a hard counter. IF you think it is I'm sorry to say that DanGR you are just playing better than your opponent.

I hope that this was a civil discussion you were looking for and I hope that this opened your mind to the possibilty that Olimar is not a hard counter for Zelda.

 

[popsofctown]

It's correct, Nair is an autocancelled aerial, and there is no landing lag associated with the move. (actually, i think there is a specific moment you can manage to land the move and get some landing lag, but it's really hard to pull it off.)
I think technical skill is probably my weakness, i don't know maybe Super Smash is my weakness, anyhow, FF is something i don't do well, at all.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Seriously... DanGR must have worked his tail off getting the matchup chart to change Zelda Vs. Olimar from being an even matchup to being a disadvantage for zelda.... he also fought 90% of the boards on the sonic v. olimar matchup though, so it's not surprising.

 

[Stiputation]

If I'm in injecting my stupid opinion on one of those hard extending blazzie blazzie debates, you're able to throw Olimar's Pikmen off of you by using Nayru's love.

I find that amazingly attractive 8]

 

[Dr. Hyde]

I'm just hitting for the fences this morning!

It's correct, Nair is an autocancelled aerial, and there is no landing lag associated with the move. (actually, i think there is a specific moment you can manage to land the move and get some landing lag, but it's really hard to pull it off.)
I think technical skill is probably my weakness, i don't know maybe Super Smash is my weakness, anyhow, FF is something i don't do well, at all.

Pops-if you work on your FF you'll improve and have some good approaches. Also grab for reason other than just for the sake of not being stale. You'll get better by grabbing trust me.

Seriously... DanGR must have worked his tail off getting the matchup chart to change Zelda Vs. Olimar from being an even matchup to being a disadvantage for zelda.... he also fought 90% of the boards on the sonic v. olimar matchup though, so it's not surprising.

I still think the reason behind people wanting to change the chart and follow it is based on people not playing people evenly.

If I'm in injecting my stupid opinion on one of those hard extending blazzie blazzie debates, you're able to throw Olimar's Pikmen off of you by using Nayru's love.

I find that amazingly attractive 8]

Ummm...// A Scene from battle
Yellow Pikmin #29: Zelda!! OM NOM NOM NOM!!!
Zelda: Naryu's Love!!!!
Yellow Pikmin #29: ? Did something try and knock me off? Oh well
OM NOM NOM NOM!!!

 

[Aeyr]

N-air is better at knocking pikmin off than nayrus. Certain pikmin are immune to the attack.

 

[Brinzy]

Does nair knock off yellow pikmin? I didn't think it did.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I normally use FW to knock off pikmin... or Dsmash to kill them.

 

[Aeyr]

from experience, yes, n-air will knock off yellow pikmin. It won't kill them though, but they'll get off.

 

[popsofctown]

Nair will knock off every pikmin, on every part of Zelda. It doesn't kill anything, except i bet it probably kills whites, because we all know the whites are total wusses.

I think yellows withstand Nayru's love just out of HP or something. It only makes logical sense for the blues to stay on. Because i'm pretty sure Nayru is the goddess of water, which would give the move some aquatic affiliations.

Based on that, it ought to knock off the reds, because the water puts out the fire in their little hearts.

Ok i'm done.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

easiest way is to go into training mode right now and try it:

my wii is in the shop, so someone else needs to do it:

FW will remove all pikmin and Dsmash will kill them

but test NL and Nair against all pikmin

 

[popsofctown]

I can gaurantee nair knocks off everything. IT doesn't really matter if it kills whites or not though. They'll die soon enough. Sometimes they spontaneously die out of sheer wussiness.

 

[Aeyr]

I already HAVE videos up where I've used n-air to remove all pikmin.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

what about NL? which pikmin does it work on (I know it reflects all of them, but which will it remove AFTER they latch on?)

 

[popsofctown]

i would prefer that that not be scientifically tested, for fear of someone debunking my "fire in their little hearts" theory. T_T

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

you are such a loser pops <_<