** OLD ** Official Pikachu Critique Thread

[gallax]

naw the snake was being funny and just came off the stage and fair'd me. but i was like behind his body when it happened and it was like wtf? lol. but i still won...yay!!!

and do we need any vids vs certain characters? i can try to get some if we do.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

well, as always... more RECENT winning footage against GOOD olimars/warios for high tier, Toon Link/Luigi/Pit/Peach/Lucario/Kirby are in demand. We have like almost NO video references for those matchup with exception of some of the stuff me and a couple other have put up (but even then we play mostly against one good opponent playstyle in those videos). We have little of those matchups even in older archives.

The rest of the damands are for lower tier and 'wierd tier' categories: (Yoshi, Shiek, Zelda, Samus, Ike, Wolf, Sonic, and both of the 'mama's boys'.

Do keep in mind that a lot of the footage that we have available right now against the previously mentioned matchups are either ANCIENT or against not so skilled (as in not top 5% of all the ones who main that character).

 

[KayLo!]

At this point, any recent vids are more than welcome. Everything we have is pretty old.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I have new pika vids to upload but idk what music to put on them...they are silent.

 

[KayLo!]

idk what music to put on them

The answer is always Kingdom Hearts.

But in all seriousness, if you're looking for VG music, check out OC Remix.

 

[altairian]

Thanks LDPK, you're a lot of help as always =)

You're right about me not reacting to what my opponent is doing, and I'm sure you could tell that my opponent was a pretty skilled player who's good at reading which is why I started out well and got owned toward the end both games. I'm gonna claim inexperience johns since I'm lucky if I get to play against humans [offline] more than once or twice a month =\ But regardless thanks and I'll be sure to work on everything you said! :D

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Kaylo, I would do OCRemix, but it just seems weird to put it over it...and idk why.

 

[KayLo!]

@Alt: Where is this Ballston Spa area of NY? Is it upstate?

If you're close to the city, you should consider coming down to Philly for one of our larger biweeklies. It's only a ~2 hour drive from NYC, we could meet, and we usually have an okay amount of pros attending..... you could get some really good practice.

Kaylo, I would do OCRemix, but it just seems weird to put it over it...and idk why.

Oh. Well, you could just leave them silent, but that'd be even weirder. x.x

Some good rock/metal, maybe? (Besides video game music, those're the only genres I like for Brawl matches, personally.)

As long as the music is decent, I don't think it really matters.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

You could also try the bazillion remixes of touhou, newgrounds.com, and random elevator music ^_^.

 

[altairian]

I'd like to come down to philly sometime, but it's at least a 5 hour drive from where I live I think. Ballston Spa is about 40 minutes north of Albany (which for the special kids in the crowd is in fact the capital of NY ) and Albany is about 2.5 hours north of NYC.
The good news is, Snakeee goes to college in Albany and he's now one of my traveling buddies so I'm gonna get more and more chances to practice with him, especially once the new semester starts up.

Link me to the thread for your biweeklies sometime though so I can make note of when they are and maybe we can plan a trip down there sometime =) The upstate NY scene is relatively weak aside from like 4 players, so we'll definitely be looking to travel OOS too.

 

[gallax]

well, as always... more RECENT winning footage against GOOD olimars/warios for high tier, Toon Link/Luigi/Pit/Peach/Lucario/Kirby are in demand. We have like almost NO video references for those matchup with exception of some of the stuff me and a couple other have put up (but even then we play mostly against one good opponent playstyle in those videos). We have little of those matchups even in older archives.

The rest of the damands are for lower tier and 'wierd tier' categories: (Yoshi, Shiek, Zelda, Samus, Ike, Wolf, Sonic, and both of the 'mama's boys'.

Do keep in mind that a lot of the footage that we have available right now against the previously mentioned matchups are either ANCIENT or against not so skilled (as in not top 5% of all the ones who main that character).

ok well we only have one really good wario in orlando but he lives kinda far away with co18 so i dont really have any good vids of wario. im terrible in the oli matchup but ill get razec to give me some of his vids against fearless(best oli in the state).

toon link- *coughLDPKhasaTLmainForaBrothercough* but ill get some
sheik- ill get some since we have the best sheik in florida here!!! lol.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

*coughTheLast90%ofRecentvidsWerejustmeAndmyToonLinkbrothercough* 40+ mins footage ^_^!

I could add a few more Ike, samus, captain falcon, and maybe olimar stuff.

 

[Frio]

These vids don't have me vsing someone but I do have a question about them. I'm having trouble vsing the MK in these vids. He plays more of a campy MK and I'm not too sure on how to punish that style. I spam t jolt but he will perfect sheild them or just jump. He also camps by doing F air then falling back or D air and falling back.

1st vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt3cbGSoYkM
2nd vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7LLBis6pfI

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Not sure how MUCH more it may help you, but QaC can barely get in and out of there 'framewise' if MK is doing shorthops. The thing is, VERY few opponents can play textbook CAMP until the clock hits zero. The secret is either getting the damage lead or just making them "crack"... lol ^_^.

There's narrow mindgames you could do with t-jolts. For example, jolt will take care of f-airs approaches and d-airs that are too low. If the MK's hop is barely higher than the arc of thunderjolt, then he won't be able to land in time for most QaC quickie-damage/potential setup. If he's at full or multijump height, remember that pika's u-air is BARELY faster than MK's d-air and a tad longer in vertical hitbox/disjointedness--use this with reading and REFLEXES to control more of the game.

Remember that d-smash, Grounded QaC, and maybe a couple other things can hit MK out of an aerial tornado (which some campy MK's do quite often)--use this to punish MK's bad spacing/timing and gain the damage lead that will further force MK not to camp.

Another VERY small thing to note is when MK is OUT of jumps. Notice in 0:53 of video 2 that MK's wings are wider after jumps 1-4, but change to straight up falling animation after MK has burned his last jump. Of course, MK could just choose to land earlier and you'll never get to see that part, but it is SOMETHING worth remembering especially because metaknight can only land or nado at that part. Read it right and own him.

Honestly, I just don't like some metaknights who overcamp at all. There comes a point in a pika's life where the pika just has to master powershielding and similar stuff to counter MK's crap and powershields. Continue to fight the good fight--its worth it.

 

[gallax]

i totally agree with LDPK on this one. one thing to note about mk losing his jumps, the MK usually knows when they have run out and will seldom land without doing either a tornado/airdodge into ground/dair. if u can get underneath them and predict properly u will be in good shape. watch for the tornado after the dair camping.

also, there are vids of anther vs m2k where all m2k does is air camp and anther finds a way to exploit it. after watching those vids u should get a grasp of what u can do.

and i have a question about MK's tornado. as the tornado goes on it gains more priority. does it ever reach the point where the tornado's priority>our dsmash's priority?

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

and i have a question about MK's tornado. as the tornado goes on it gains more priority. does it ever reach the point where the tornado's priority>our dsmash's priority?

From ALL my experiences against MK (including M2K's) if you are standing on a level ground, only a TRULY GROUNDED tornado can overcome pika's D-smash. If the Metaknight as much as presses 'B' button twice, then their tornado lifts a few pixels off the ground and pika's d-smash will 100% overcome. I am 99.5% sure that no matter how much priority 'nado has, as long as it's off the ground by a hair, pika's will 100% overcome or 5% trade/95% overcome (i've never seen it trade according to my scenario yet if i get correct timing).

What M2K actually started to do was to space himself much farther away and tornado approach across without any "B" input so that by the time it reaches me, it was fully grounded so it overcame d-smash. The thing is, most MK's aim to exit tornado from SH height to take advantage of less landing lag. D-smash mindgames forces MK to 'ground' their tornado, giving you (~)double the number of frames to punish the landing MK (of course this is assuming you defended against it properly). In all reality, if you have a near full shield and have good d-smash timing, tornado should NEVER work without risking potential punishment/thrashing. One of the more reason's why some of the BETTER MK's that face regular pika's (affinity, M2k, judge, seige) aren't as "nado happy" as many others--mostly used as a protective retreat.

It's hilarious against a newb MK who thinks they can safely nado pika and stall out time.

What I REALLY want to learn more about are all the possible ways QA and QaC can overcome MK's nado--either grounded or aerial or BOTH. I've tried every now and then but in a big fight, i just fall back to d-smashing which is more safe. But honestly, if i could build more experience with screwing MK's with QaC's then that'll be helpful. This is a shoutout to all pika's who've done it right and consistently... show me yo moves. And just so i can hopefully bring Anther's attention here to possibly answer this i'm going to name spam: Anther, Anther, Anther, Anther, Anther. Now for ESAM: ESAM, ESAM, ESAM, ESAM. I hope they do name searches often ^_^.

 

[Kantō]

ill be getting some new vids up after sundays tourney. also, did anyone see/critique my vids with that yoshi? been a couple days since ive been on cuz my comp. broke...

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

ill be getting some new vids up after sundays tourney. also, did anyone see/critique my vids with that yoshi? been a couple days since ive been on cuz my comp. broke...

Um... I already commented on those vids a few days ago under the vid on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm0U2Z70fOs. I just realized it probably was not your youtube account, but I commented on youtube instead of smashboards cuz I also liked that yoshi and wanted both of you to read the comments. The youtube name that I posted under is 'shadowcase'.

 

[Kantō]

thanks man, ill check em out on youtube then.

 

[gallax]

kk. thanks dude. but i also want to talk a little more about this dair camping. i noticed that if you space yourself properly you can sometimes get in a bair on the mk.

the end of mk's dair swing reaches further along his side than the beginning of the dair. so if you can space it properly by waiting for the start of the dair you can successfully get a bair in from the shorter part of the dair swing. people should watch out for this and i think is very important in the MK matchup. this is another option to the uair of course which is also very important in dair spacing.

 

[KayLo!]

Imo, it's more useful to go for a uair when he's forced to land (or sometimes you can squeeze one in between dairs if you're really careful).

Keeps him close for more pressure rather than knocking him away so he can..... resume dair camping.

EDIT: Even nair/dair are better since you have more of a chance for a followup. Bair has too much cooldown for my tastes.

 

[Anther]

Dsmash is bad for trying to beat tornado imo. Use fsmash if it's level with you, or shield and chase them if they try to eat through your angled shield. =o

If it's too quick to fsmash it, shield's the most consistent option. I guess if Dsmash is working for you then why not though. XD... it doesn't work for me ;-;

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

I think one of the redeeming factors of b-air is that it gets its damage and refreshing hits in when you land the first hit and DI well. The other 'closer' setups could just be tornado'ed out of which is sometimes annoying. I think any of them win in different situations depending on what annoys you more.

Edit: ^^The man speaks (knew i could get him here ^_^) ^^: take nado like a man and truck through.... Thank you Mr. Anther.

 

[gallax]

yeah but u see bair has knockback which is very useful. i wouldn't dair a dair camping mk. lol. thats way too difficult and almost impossible at times. nair yes though. for me though, nair is great for a follow up if you get an uair in. a quick uair>nair is possible when the mk is at mid>higher percentages.

i do want to say a few things about uair though. uair has very little knockback and very easy to punish. the only way the MK will not not be able to land a dair against you is if you space ur uair almost perfectly and FF it immediately after landing a hit. if you dont so both of these the MK will be able to get a free dair off.

bair also gets u more damage and will knock the MK away at lower percentages, which is great since he cant follow up with an attack and allows for the match to get back to nuetral.

and i rarely attack when the MK is landing from dair camping. you want to get right below him on the ground. dsmash works if the mk doesnt dair and tries to nado or airdodge but shielding is your best option because more than likely the MK is going to tornado which goes though your uair and every other aerial. but getting hits on a MK when they are landing is terribly difficult, especially when playing a MK who is experienced and a good player overall.

conclusion summarized form what everyone has said so far:

it is very difficult to space a diar camper. but if thats how the MK decides to play then you need to learn the dair openings and timing. if you think u can follow up an uair then go for it. if you do not plan on following it up then just space the tip of your uair as to not get hit. if you see the opening for a bair take it. keep the MK close and pressure his from underneath.

edit: the Anther has spoken

 

[KayLo!]

I think one of the redeeming factors of b-air is that it gets its damage and refreshing hits in when you land the first hit and DI well.

Bair counts as one move. The separate hits don't count for refreshing other moves. x.o

EDIT #2: Although I wonder how landing hitboxes (bair, dair) affect move refreshing. (hmm)

EDIT: @Gallax: Meh, whatever works for you. I prefer pressuring an MK once I get close since it's so **** hard to get in there in the first place. Knocking him away and resetting things to neutral once you finally get that opening seems counterproductive to me, but whatevs. Always good to know different options.

 

[Anther]

In soviet mk, you don't pressure MK, MK pressures you ;0!

When MK's in the air and you're on the ground technically he's at a disadvantage because there is an impending moment where he has to land and have 3 whole frames of vulnerability after an airdodge or 7 frames from using dair. So if you knock him away.. you get the advantage even more because he has less jumps to work with, and pika just excels at chasing people while they're in the air.
Bair's good because it's one of those psychological moves that hurts peoples feelings and makes them play worse when they're hit by it... all moves that last too long do that. You sit there and think about what could've went wrong.. and cry ;;.

Just hit him with whatever is most likely to work. Sometimes uair gives you that vertical or horizontal reach you need to get in there, other times bair seems like the best move, just get your hits in and eventually you will have broken his dair pressure game. ... and stuff...

 

[KayLo!]

So basically, tl;dr: do whatever you feel's gonna work and hope it actually does.

Got it. <3

EDIT: Seems like it also depends on how much damage MK has. At low percentages, I feel like bair wouldn't have the hitstun/knockback to work out well (to balance out its cooldown), but at higher percentages, I can see it being more of a viable option.

Thanks, Antherface, you explained it well. In your weird way, lol.

 

[Kenrawr]

Ohhh.

I'm one confused individual.

 

[gallax]

In soviet mk, you don't pressure MK, MK pressures you ;0!

spoken like a true chief

 

[Frio]

Thanks for all the Mk advice guys. I think I have a general idea on what to do now.

 

[Kantō]

sweet, MK advice from anther! im taking all that in for sure.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Anyway... sorry to deter from the exciting MK chat. For those who are still interested in the Ike-Pika matchups between me and my crewmate, here are 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NgkezHmJsM.

Those are just the 'few' of the many we've had. Hope it helps either pikas or Ikes. I've also added a few real life TEST results vids. It's all more of a lolz ganondorf ownage compilation. You can find those on our page: http://www.youtube.com/user/shadowcase .

 

[KayLo!]

I only watched the Ike matches, but I'd suggest that you QAC less. Or QAC more carefully. It worked at times, but you got punished for it a lot (iirc, you QAC'd straight into his fair a couple of times), and he quickly learned to just shield it whenever you did it a lot in a short period of time.

Overall, though, nice vids.

EDIT: Also, @beginning of the first vid: get into the habit of fthrow CGing Ike over dthrow CGing him. He can footstool out of the dthrow one (the first 4 grabs), although you were lucky that this Ike apparently didn't know that.

EDIT #2: Why does he never shieldgrab you when he shields your fair? @.@ He always rolls away instead, lol. I don't think he grabbed you once that first match..... he could've had some jab cancel > grabs. Anyways. Just random thoughts from those matches.

 

[Kantō]

i could only watch the 1st 2 min. of the ike matches for some reason, it wouldnt work on my comp.
anyways the fthrow is more reliable CG than the dthrow i take it? how many can u get off?

 

[KayLo!]

Ike
- 0% - 67% + regrab
- Fthrow x 10 > grab

Ike
- 0% - 62% + regrab
- Dthrow x 9 > grab
*First 4 regrabs are escapable with footstool.

From the CG thread.

If you grab him near the edge of the stage, it makes more sense to try the dthrow CG (or dthrow > nair or something), but if you have space to fthrow, the fthrow CG is more reliable.

 

[Kantō]

so my best bet is to go with the fthrow then.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

LDPK, stop QACing so much. It really ISN'T a good idea in that MU. Since Pikachu's hurtbox is weird during QAC its actually a really really bad idea against Ike. I liked your use of thunder to edgeguard, it was pretty good and ike couldn't really do anything about a lot of them. Also, when he is stalling with his up-b, back off and shoot T-jolts. There is no point in being right next to him, you have nothing to gain with it. That's basically it. Otherwise you were doing good.

Also, like the end of the first match, your QA lag if you QAC too much will lead to **** that doesn't work. Ike can probably jab cancel to U-smash or F-smash if you have that lag

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

LDPK, stop QACing so much. It really ISN'T a good idea in that MU. Since Pikachu's hurtbox is weird during QAC its actually a really really bad idea against Ike. I liked your use of thunder to edgeguard, it was pretty good and ike couldn't really do anything about a lot of them. Also, when he is stalling with his up-b, back off and shoot T-jolts. There is no point in being right next to him, you have nothing to gain with it. That's basically it. Otherwise you were doing good.

Also, like the end of the first match, your QA lag if you QAC too much will lead to **** that doesn't work. Ike can probably jab cancel to U-smash or F-smash if you have that lag

*jots down notes*

By the way... just curious... do you post up critique vids anymore, ESAM? I entered you into my wii now so i can upload any vids that you can't find others to upload for you. I would like to see more of you recent matches against ppls so i can advance my pika (and better scheme how to overthrow this "ESAM of florida."

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

If you look on my channel i have new ones, im too lazy to put them here

youtube.com/imESAM

Only against Seibrik's D3 though

 

[KayLo!]

*jots down notes*

Uhh, dunno if you missed my post or not, but I asked a question or two. ;;