Official Standard Custom Project - Ver. 1

[Bribery]

My top 8 sets:
3231
3233
3133
3331
1331
2231
3131
3232

Reasons:

Spoiler

Edits: Realized I mixed up the Hammers for Olimar

 

[WootSnorlax]

I really enjoy everyone's thoughts on normal inhale. I personally like normal inhale also, but for now am trying out jumping inhale because I see a bit of potential in it. I agree that 1131 should be in for doubles. Kirby's default set of moves actually is very good in doubles and jumping inhale can be a bit of a problem if your doubles partner isn't prepared for that kind of movement. Especially from Kirby. If you jumping inhale your partner it could put both of you in a bad situation where normal inhale will be used when you know you're safe.

Default hammer is pretty good in doubles because you can get hit out of it. While it does sound stupid to be hit out of it, your partner can help you get out of the hammer scenario instead of taking a huge hit from an opponent or having to have your partner grab you. What's also great about the default hammer is that it keeps it's charge properties for the hype 2v1 scenarios, or just the 2v2 scenario when no one is expecting it. It creates shield pressure and tough to deal with situations in a fast paced environment.

Default stone is ok to have in doubles also. I'm just going to be honest I haven't messed with the other stones and I probably never will. I enjoy the knockback from stone and use it regularly to kill off the top from a juggling opponent. Default stone's great knockback helps in doubles to get you back to the stage quick and sets up a hitbox for your opponent to watch out for. Your partner can hit the enemy into stone or your enemy can think to hit you but instead takes a rock to the face. All of this is from personal doubles experience with my doubles partner, though these are tournament sets without customs. I wouldn't think to use any other set for doubles other than 1131.

I'm not saying that the hammer and stone customs are bad and that they should be left to default only, but I personally have my reasons for it. Giant hammer is too slow to use in a high level match. While it does have super armor, I'm not a fan of moves that have a ridiculously long startup. The other custom hammer I thought I would like, but I ended up not. The normal swing just isn't enough to do something an f-smash wouldn't do. The way it messes with your movement in the air really throws it for me also. While you can say it helps with recovery, I think upper cutter and jumping inhale already does that. For stone, I just enjoy using it to get back to stage and to help me protect myself from juggling opponents. I said before that I haven't messed with it and it's because I know for certain that the other stones just don't cut it. Both the side special and down specials Kirby has are very situational moves. Changing the customs, I feel, doesn't open more viable scenarios to use it from. Like I said I am a pretty vanilla player. Once I get used to timings for Kirby's moves it'll be hard to switch back so casually. I'm only saying this because I am certain there will be a divide in tournaments that do and don't do customs. I'm standing really strong with my decision on 3131 and 1131.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

I really enjoy everyone's thoughts on normal inhale. I personally like normal inhale also, but for now am trying out jumping inhale because I see a bit of potential in it. I agree that 1131 should be in for doubles. Kirby's default set of moves actually is very good in doubles and jumping inhale can be a bit of a problem if your doubles partner isn't prepared for that kind of movement. Especially from Kirby. If you jumping inhale your partner it could put both of you in a bad situation where normal inhale will be used when you know you're safe.

Default hammer is pretty good in doubles because you can get hit out of it. While it does sound stupid to be hit out of it, your partner can help you get out of the hammer scenario instead of taking a huge hit from an opponent or having to have your partner grab you. What's also great about the default hammer is that it keeps it's charge properties for the hype 2v1 scenarios, or just the 2v2 scenario when no one is expecting it. It creates shield pressure and tough to deal with situations in a fast paced environment.

Default stone is ok to have in doubles also. I'm just going to be honest I haven't messed with the other stones and I probably never will. I enjoy the knockback from stone and use it regularly to kill off the top from a juggling opponent. Default stone's great knockback helps in doubles to get you back to the stage quick and sets up a hitbox for your opponent to watch out for. Your partner can hit the enemy into stone or your enemy can think to hit you but instead takes a rock to the face. All of this is from personal doubles experience with my doubles partner, though these are tournament sets without customs. I wouldn't think to use any other set for doubles other than 1131.

I'm not saying that the hammer and stone customs are bad and that they should be left to default only, but I personally have my reasons for it. Giant hammer is too slow to use in a high level match. While it does have super armor, I'm not a fan of moves that have a ridiculously long startup. The other custom hammer I thought I would like, but I ended up not. The normal swing just isn't enough to do something an f-smash wouldn't do. The way it messes with your movement in the air really throws it for me also. While you can say it helps with recovery, I think upper cutter and jumping inhale already does that. For stone, I just enjoy using it to get back to stage and to help me protect myself from juggling opponents. I said before that I haven't messed with it and it's because I know for certain that the other stones just don't cut it. Both the side special and down specials Kirby has are very situational moves. Changing the customs, I feel, doesn't open more viable scenarios to use it from. Like I said I am a pretty vanilla player. Once I get used to timings for Kirby's moves it'll be hard to switch back so casually. I'm only saying this because I am certain there will be a divide in tournaments that do and don't do customs. I'm standing really strong with my decision on 3131 and 1131.

Hammer bash helps more with vertical recovery than being a kill move and it's not like you would be using hammer for anything other than punishes or hard reads anyway so i just like to have it as an extra option to recover plus i don't have to waste too many of Kirby's jumps since 2 hammer bashes right after jumping goes as high as 3 or 4 of Kirby's midair jumps combined. But hey different strokes for different folks i guess.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

It was found out on reddit that Giant Hammer has the effect of making Kirby's Pikmin weaker.

Pikmin
Hammer Flip/ Red 7% - Yellow 6% - Blue 6% - White 5% - Purple 9%
Hammer Bash/ Red 1% per hit (up to 19%) - Yellow 1% per hit (up to 19%) - Blue 1% per hit (up to 19%) - White 2% per hit (up to 40%) - Purple 5%
Giant Hammer/ Red 5% - Yellow 5% - Blue 5% - White 3% - Purple 8%

Silly stuff. Go figure.

 

[Ansou]

It was found out on reddit that Giant Hammer has the effect of making Kirby's Pikmin weaker.

Pikmin
Hammer Flip/ Red 7% - Yellow 6% - Blue 6% - White 5% - Purple 9%
Hammer Bash/ Red 1% per hit (up to 19%) - Yellow 1% per hit (up to 19%) - Blue 1% per hit (up to 19%) - White 2% per hit (up to 40%) - Purple 5%
Giant Hammer/ Red 5% - Yellow 5% - Blue 5% - White 3% - Purple 8%

Silly stuff. Go figure.

Ooh so it wasn't just my imagination when I tested it? Well this is just really weird, but I guess the developers just redesigned the default Pikmin Throw for Kirby but forgot about the other ones.

 

[WootSnorlax]

Hammer bash helps more with vertical recovery than being a kill move and it's not like you would be using hammer for anything other than punishes or hard reads anyway so i just like to have it as an extra option to recover plus i don't have to waste too many of Kirby's jumps since 2 hammer bashes right after jumping goes as high as 3 or 4 of Kirby's midair jumps combined. But hey different strokes for different folks i guess.

The problem is that you're stuck in that animation for a long time. It leaves you so vulnerable if you're using it to recover vertically. There are so many instances in which I have, and have been, spiked when coming up using normal jumps being careless or hit while using default final cutter. Jump + air dodge with Kirby is just so good. I understand the fact that it's another option, it's just too situational through my eyes and follows what I said about both the fspecial and dspecial being really situation based.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Oops I haven't been on in a while. Yeah, the vertical recovery with Hammer Bash is nice, but I can only see it coming in handy for the first use. It is punishable. Hammer Bash is mostly good for its speed compared to the other two.

Anyway, to actually talk about why I want Wave Cutter on a set (5 days late but whatever). I'm not going to use the "we have Upper Cutter on all of the others" thing because I wouldn't use that argument in the case of Inhale/Ice Breath vs Jumping Inhale. Anyway.

Wave Cutter's projectile is very, very long. I'm sure we all know that. Yes, the sword lacks a hitbox, but the wave part of Wave Cutter is very, very long. The damage is good, too, dealing 10% or 15%, depending on where it lands. Kirby can actually use this move from a distance and, unless hit by a projectile (and only specific ones like Fox or Falco or something), he can't be punished. The knockback is good, too, and even if it doesn't K.O, it can get opponents offstage, which is good.

The big thing I like about it, though, is that it makes approaching more difficult for the opponent. Without Wave Cutter, what options does Kirby have when an opponent is far away from him? Final Cutter's blade is so small it may as well not count. He can crouch, which is okay, but not threatening. Even if they don't get hit, or they block it, or they avoid it, it's still something. It gives Kirby an option that he wouldn't have otherwise that, as far as I'm aware, no other moves really give him.

There's also platforms to keep in mind. As far as they're concerned, Wave Cutter takes advantage of platforms much better than both Final Cutter and even Upper Cutter. The wave of Wave Cutter does have a small hitbox underneath of it, which could help against taller characters. The wave goes far, and goes in a straight pattern, even on ledges. It'd be nifty if it went diagonally down, yeah, but you can punish opponents (or at least prevent them from setting things up) from a decent distance. Take Battlefield, for example, if Kirby is below the left platform, the opponent on the right platform has more limited options due to the range on Wave Cutter.

I'm aware that Upper Cutter serves a multitude of uses, and it's definitely easier to land, but Wave Cutter gives Kirby one or two options that really help him out. Not every player is going to like it, of course, and as I said, its uses compared to Upper Cutter are a bit more limited. I still think Wave Cutter gives Kirby something he just would not have otherwise, so it's worth having on at least one set. I really liked 3221, and while I won't explain Jumping Inhale and Hammer Bash as it seems everyone loves those, normal Stone was just a personal preference. I could do with with 3222 and 3223, as well. Wave Cutter is the one that stands out for me and I really don't want to see people give up on it.

Sorry for the ramble. I just love Wave Cutter. ;__;

(And I'm aware that it's useless on Final Destination. I am of the opinion that Kirby players should ban that stage anyway, but that's a different topic. =P)

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

Oops I haven't been on in a while. Yeah, the vertical recovery with Hammer Bash is nice, but I can only see it coming in handy for the first use. It is punishable. Hammer Bash is mostly good for its speed compared to the other two.

Anyway, to actually talk about why I want Wave Cutter on a set (5 days late but whatever). I'm not going to use the "we have Upper Cutter on all of the others" thing because I wouldn't use that argument in the case of Inhale/Ice Breath vs Jumping Inhale. Anyway.

Wave Cutter's projectile is very, very long. I'm sure we all know that. Yes, the sword lacks a hitbox, but the wave part of Wave Cutter is very, very long. The damage is good, too, dealing 10% or 15%, depending on where it lands. Kirby can actually use this move from a distance and, unless hit by a projectile (and only specific ones like Fox or Falco or something), he can't be punished. The knockback is good, too, and even if it doesn't K.O, it can get opponents offstage, which is good.

The big thing I like about it, though, is that it makes approaching more difficult for the opponent. Without Wave Cutter, what options does Kirby have when an opponent is far away from him? Final Cutter's blade is so small it may as well not count. He can crouch, which is okay, but not threatening. Even if they don't get hit, or they block it, or they avoid it, it's still something. It gives Kirby an option that he wouldn't have otherwise that, as far as I'm aware, no other moves really give him.

There's also platforms to keep in mind. As far as they're concerned, Wave Cutter takes advantage of platforms much better than both Final Cutter and even Upper Cutter. The wave of Wave Cutter does have a small hitbox underneath of it, which could help against taller characters. The wave goes far, and goes in a straight pattern, even on ledges. It'd be nifty if it went diagonally down, yeah, but you can punish opponents (or at least prevent them from setting things up) from a decent distance. Take Battlefield, for example, if Kirby is below the left platform, the opponent on the right platform has more limited options due to the range on Wave Cutter.

I'm aware that Upper Cutter serves a multitude of uses, and it's definitely easier to land, but Wave Cutter gives Kirby one or two options that really help him out. Not every player is going to like it, of course, and as I said, its uses compared to Upper Cutter are a bit more limited. I still think Wave Cutter gives Kirby something he just would not have otherwise, so it's worth having on at least one set. I really liked 3221, and while I won't explain Jumping Inhale and Hammer Bash as it seems everyone loves those, normal Stone was just a personal preference. I could do with with 3222 and 3223, as well. Wave Cutter is the one that stands out for me and I really don't want to see people give up on it.

Sorry for the ramble. I just love Wave Cutter. ;__;

(And I'm aware that it's useless on Final Destination. I am of the opinion that Kirby players should ban that stage anyway, but that's a different topic. =P)

Sorry i know this is off topic but i thought stages without platforms depending on the character because he's one of those "up close and personal" kind of characters.

 

[MikeKirby]

I'm really liking the discussion. Especially, on Olimar. I didn't know that hammer bash was the reason. In that case, I'd probably opt out for using regular Hammer Flip.

1131 is definitely one set I run in doubles.
-Inhale is good if your partner has an ability that you'd like to take. Plus the star shot is a projectile and it's the only setting where it'd make good use--in a 2v2+.
-Default hammer is the best of all hammers to utilize in doubles because it's a balance of the speed and power of all the hammers. If you create a 2v1 situation and your partner grabs the enemy then it's Hammer Flip charge time for the KO! Plus you can utilize it for any open punishes that give you the opportunity to hit 'em with an uncharged swing.
-Upper Cutter is self explanatory as it does everything. Especially make you live longer which is useful in doubles.
-Default stone is good because everyone should be familiar with it already and you'd probably still wouldn't use it much--well more than you would in singles anyway~

It seems people like Meteor Stone vs Olimar. I feel like it's pretty telegraphed and Olimar would just stall/back up till you drop off enough. I'm not found of that custom but I'd love to learn how to use it from you guys if it's been doing wonders for you! Any videos that showcase it? .-.

@ kirbyfan66 I feel your pain. Wave Cutter isn't my preferred one but I like the love that you give it. I'd like to see you advance the metagame of Wave Cutter. That'd be cool to see!

@ WolfieXVII ❂ and @ Ansou , I'd like to hear your thoughts on why those are your preferred sets.

Here's the update~

Spoiler

I want to also maybe copy down people's reasons for utilizing sets so that people won't have to dig for 'em. Hmm...
It's not exactly a vote for which customs we will submit into the project but I wanted to accumulate all the sets that were chosen to see what's popular among everyone and why.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Oh, I guess I must have missed the 4-8 picks part. Oops. Is it any set or just the sets we have right now? I'll assume the former for now. Stone is entirely personal preference so I'll put a random Stone in there.

Spoiler

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

I'm really liking the discussion. Especially, on Olimar. I didn't know that hammer bash was the reason. In that case, I'd probably opt out for using regular Hammer Flip.

1131 is definitely one set I run in doubles.
-Inhale is good if your partner has an ability that you'd like to take. Plus the star shot is a projectile and it's the only setting where it'd make good use--in a 2v2+.
-Default hammer is the best of all hammers to utilize in doubles because it's a balance of the speed and power of all the hammers. If you create a 2v1 situation and your partner grabs the enemy then it's Hammer Flip charge time for the KO! Plus you can utilize it for any open punishes that give you the opportunity to hit 'em with an uncharged swing.
-Upper Cutter is self explanatory as it does everything. Especially make you live longer which is useful in doubles.
-Default stone is good because everyone should be familiar with it already and you'd probably still wouldn't use it much--well more than you would in singles anyway~

It seems people like Meteor Stone vs Olimar. I feel like it's pretty telegraphed and Olimar would just stall/back up till you drop off enough. I'm not found of that custom but I'd love to learn how to use it from you guys if it's been doing wonders for you! Any videos that showcase it? .-.

@ kirbyfan66 I feel your pain. Wave Cutter isn't my preferred one but I like the love that you give it. I'd like to see you advance the metagame of Wave Cutter. That'd be cool to see!

@ WolfieXVII ❂ and @ Ansou , I'd like to hear your thoughts on why those are your preferred sets.

Here's the update~

Spoiler

I want to also maybe copy down people's reasons for utilizing sets so that people won't have to dig for 'em. Hmm...
It's not exactly a vote for which customs we will submit into the project but I wanted to accumulate all the sets that were chosen to see what's popular among everyone and why.

I'll give a detailed response on Monday when I have the time
Just leaving this here as a reminder

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Kirby:

1/3, 2, 3, 1/2/3, niche: 2XXX, X3XX, X1XX (for the Olimar match-up), XX2X

1231, 1232, 1233, 3231, 3232, 3233
niche: 2231, 3331, 3131, 3221

This is our preliminary work on what seems to be the direction of discussion among team Kirby. It seems like you guys mostly care about neutral-1 vs neutral-3 and stone variants being diverse while mostly agreeing side-2 and up-3 are best. There is niche support for both other hammers (and hammer-1 seems obviously important for the Olimar match-up if you don't want sticky pikmin), Wave Cutter gets requested often enough I think it really needs an otherwise optimized set, and the Ice Breath set as I recall is valued in some match-ups. I went with Stone-1 on the niche sets since it seems the most general purpose.

You guys are doing some kind of voting but it seems like what I have covers everything that got more than two votes so far. Let me know if we need to make adjustments here before our deadline in 10 days.

 

[Ansou]

1231, 1232, 1233, 3231, 3232, 3233
niche: 2231, 3331, 3131, 3221

I think this seems like a pretty legit list for the most part. I'm not sure if we should have three Inhale sets, but if it's for doubles, shouldn't one of the sets be 1131 since Hammer Flip is popular in doubles? I think we should replace 1232 with 1131 since it seemed like no one here uses 1232. Also, about 3232, does Grounding Stone have any synergy with Hammer Flip or Hammer Bash? I have almost no experience with Grounding Stone, but I just wanted to ask all of you if this set should be 3232 or 3132 (most of you voted for 3232 so I guess Hammer Flip doesn't have much synergy with Grounding Stone and that 3232 is the best). Lastly, we should sort the sets by usage, so that 3231 is at the top and so on.

@ MikeKirby I see that you did not include me in the your updated post, but I can motivate my sets here. First off, I generally just prefer Hammer Flip because of its potential in punishing shield breaks, playing weird mind games and punishing missed techs and so on. This is why I have put it as default in most of my sets. To be honest though, I have not gotten much use out of any of the hammers and I have neither actually compared the frame data on them, so if the Kirby boards decide that Hammer Bash is generally better, then I could live with that.

Motivation for my sets:

3131

Spoiler

3231

Spoiler

3133

Spoiler

2131

Spoiler

3331

Spoiler

3333

Spoiler

 

[Bribery]

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Kirby:

1/3, 2, 3, 1/2/3, niche: 2XXX, X3XX, X1XX (for the Olimar match-up), XX2X

1231, 1232, 1233, 3231, 3232, 3233
niche: 2231, 3331, 3131, 3221

I'm quite happy with this list but I think 1131 should be included since it's a popular choice, especially for doubles. I don't think 1232 and 1233 sets are necessary. The ones that prefer Inhale seem to prefer the 1231 set, so 1232 and 1233 could potentially be replaced with 1131 and another niche set (I personally like 3133 for Olimar but 3131 is fine if we don't have room for it).

Also, about 3232, does Grounding Stone have any synergy with Hammer Flip or Hammer Bash? I have almost no experience with Grounding Stone, but I just wanted to ask all of you if this set should be 3232 or 3132 (most of you voted for 3232 so I guess Hammer Flip doesn't have much synergy with Grounding Stone and that 3232 is the best).

imo Grounding Stone is more for recovery purposes/escaping juggles. It has almost no end-lag after transforming back so you can follow-up with almost anything safely unlike the other two Stones. All of Kirby's Stones are easily telegraphed so you won't be burying people that often. Either Hammer is fine with it really. Hammer Bash is a slightly better follow-up since it does more damage without needing a charge. I haven't tried Hammer Flip + Grounding Stone on a human opponent but a level 9 CPU can usually mash out of being buried before Hammer Flip gets charged.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Do any of the people who primarily use Inhale have anything to say about that? If it's what you guys want, there's no issue dropping a few of those more formulaic Inhale sets for something like 1131 or 3133 if you guys consider those more useful sets.

 

[Altair357]

Well, something you can do with Inhale is land with it. For example, you can mix it up by landing it front of an opponent expecting an aerial and instead inhale them. You can't do this with Jumping Inhale, because the forward and upward momentum would keep them out of inhale range until they can safely grab you.

Not sure how useful this is over Jumping Inhale's range and gimping ability, but it might be worth considering.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I really enjoy everyone's thoughts on normal inhale. I personally like normal inhale also, but for now am trying out jumping inhale because I see a bit of potential in it. I agree that 1131 should be in for doubles. Kirby's default set of moves actually is very good in doubles and jumping inhale can be a bit of a problem if your doubles partner isn't prepared for that kind of movement. Especially from Kirby. If you jumping inhale your partner it could put both of you in a bad situation where normal inhale will be used when you know you're safe.

Default hammer is pretty good in doubles because you can get hit out of it. While it does sound stupid to be hit out of it, your partner can help you get out of the hammer scenario instead of taking a huge hit from an opponent or having to have your partner grab you. What's also great about the default hammer is that it keeps it's charge properties for the hype 2v1 scenarios, or just the 2v2 scenario when no one is expecting it. It creates shield pressure and tough to deal with situations in a fast paced environment.

Default stone is ok to have in doubles also. I'm just going to be honest I haven't messed with the other stones and I probably never will. I enjoy the knockback from stone and use it regularly to kill off the top from a juggling opponent. Default stone's great knockback helps in doubles to get you back to the stage quick and sets up a hitbox for your opponent to watch out for. Your partner can hit the enemy into stone or your enemy can think to hit you but instead takes a rock to the face. All of this is from personal doubles experience with my doubles partner, though these are tournament sets without customs. I wouldn't think to use any other set for doubles other than 1131.

I'm not saying that the hammer and stone customs are bad and that they should be left to default only, but I personally have my reasons for it. Giant hammer is too slow to use in a high level match. While it does have super armor, I'm not a fan of moves that have a ridiculously long startup. The other custom hammer I thought I would like, but I ended up not. The normal swing just isn't enough to do something an f-smash wouldn't do. The way it messes with your movement in the air really throws it for me also. While you can say it helps with recovery, I think upper cutter and jumping inhale already does that. For stone, I just enjoy using it to get back to stage and to help me protect myself from juggling opponents. I said before that I haven't messed with it and it's because I know for certain that the other stones just don't cut it. Both the side special and down specials Kirby has are very situational moves. Changing the customs, I feel, doesn't open more viable scenarios to use it from. Like I said I am a pretty vanilla player. Once I get used to timings for Kirby's moves it'll be hard to switch back so casually. I'm only saying this because I am certain there will be a divide in tournaments that do and don't do customs. I'm standing really strong with my decision on 3131 and 1131.

I may be wrong, so correct me @ Amazing Ampharos , but the Custom Moveset project is catered towards singles right now. Even then, default Hammer and Stone aren't THAT good in Doubles. Giant Hammer kills every character from the middle of Battlefield at 15% with DI. Bring it into doubles where it's much easier to land, combined with the Super Armor Kirby has during it, you're threatening the opposing team quite a bit. The only option they have is to grab you while your team mate is there, which means you're either going to land it from them having to deal with your team mate, or they're going to get punished for grabbing you by your team mate. If you DO whiff it, a single jab will get you out, so it's definitely not risky. I'd say that you're going to want to bring Burying Stone into doubles. Having so many players at once means the likelihood of it landing is much higher, while whiffing it won't get you punished super hard.

On to your actual things you've said about customs. Giant Hammer really shouldn't be used in singles unless you're fighting Marth or Lucina, as it'll barely ever be landed. In doubles, the move is pretty much overpowered, though. Hammer Bash should primarily be used as a punishing option, as it does 21% (versus F-Smash doing 15%), along with stronger knockback and is actually safer on shield due to pushing the opponent back so far. You can also use it in the air, which is the equivalent of being able to use smash attacks in the air. Hammer Bash helping your recovery actually is more for recovering high than low. In the case that you do need to recover high, such as against Duck Hunt or Pac-Man, it allows Kirby to use Hammer Bash and Jumping Inhale to get above the stage, then use Burying Stone to land without much risk. On to Burying Stone, it's much more usable when getting back to the stage and protecting yourself from getting juggled compared to default Stone. It has a lot less endlag while having surprisingly strong knockback while falling, which has netted me an enormous amount of kills against characters like Rosalina and Meta Knight. If the opponent tries to punish it when you land, you barely have any lag along with having super armor, which means you can easily get out of it and punish them instead. Being able to exit Stone mid-air and immediately act is crazy good. The only reason to ever use Stone against Burying Stone is if you TRULY need it for edgeguarding and Quick Rock. D-Air to Footstool can almost always cover Kirby instead.

3131 will definitely be a set for dealing with Olimar, but I can't see 1131 being a set.

Oops I haven't been on in a while. Yeah, the vertical recovery with Hammer Bash is nice, but I can only see it coming in handy for the first use. It is punishable. Hammer Bash is mostly good for its speed compared to the other two.

Anyway, to actually talk about why I want Wave Cutter on a set (5 days late but whatever). I'm not going to use the "we have Upper Cutter on all of the others" thing because I wouldn't use that argument in the case of Inhale/Ice Breath vs Jumping Inhale. Anyway.

Wave Cutter's projectile is very, very long. I'm sure we all know that. Yes, the sword lacks a hitbox, but the wave part of Wave Cutter is very, very long. The damage is good, too, dealing 10% or 15%, depending on where it lands. Kirby can actually use this move from a distance and, unless hit by a projectile (and only specific ones like Fox or Falco or something), he can't be punished. The knockback is good, too, and even if it doesn't K.O, it can get opponents offstage, which is good.

The big thing I like about it, though, is that it makes approaching more difficult for the opponent. Without Wave Cutter, what options does Kirby have when an opponent is far away from him? Final Cutter's blade is so small it may as well not count. He can crouch, which is okay, but not threatening. Even if they don't get hit, or they block it, or they avoid it, it's still something. It gives Kirby an option that he wouldn't have otherwise that, as far as I'm aware, no other moves really give him.

There's also platforms to keep in mind. As far as they're concerned, Wave Cutter takes advantage of platforms much better than both Final Cutter and even Upper Cutter. The wave of Wave Cutter does have a small hitbox underneath of it, which could help against taller characters. The wave goes far, and goes in a straight pattern, even on ledges. It'd be nifty if it went diagonally down, yeah, but you can punish opponents (or at least prevent them from setting things up) from a decent distance. Take Battlefield, for example, if Kirby is below the left platform, the opponent on the right platform has more limited options due to the range on Wave Cutter.

I'm aware that Upper Cutter serves a multitude of uses, and it's definitely easier to land, but Wave Cutter gives Kirby one or two options that really help him out. Not every player is going to like it, of course, and as I said, its uses compared to Upper Cutter are a bit more limited. I still think Wave Cutter gives Kirby something he just would not have otherwise, so it's worth having on at least one set. I really liked 3221, and while I won't explain Jumping Inhale and Hammer Bash as it seems everyone loves those, normal Stone was just a personal preference. I could do with with 3222 and 3223, as well. Wave Cutter is the one that stands out for me and I really don't want to see people give up on it.

Sorry for the ramble. I just love Wave Cutter. ;__;

(And I'm aware that it's useless on Final Destination. I am of the opinion that Kirby players should ban that stage anyway, but that's a different topic. =P)

I'd personally like to apologize for writing Wave Cutter off as a horrible move. After using it a bit more, while it isn't a TRUE projectile, having such a long-ranged projectile that hits so hard is AMAZING for walling opponents out. Using it against characters who can easily be walled out and aren't as threatened by Upper Cutter such as Ganondorf, Dedede, Ike, Donkey Kong, etc. is really, REALLY good. It helps Kirby's MUs against the heavy weight so much. Also, it edgeguards Ganondorf and Ike so it's hilarious. Also, Wave Cutter has a small hitbox behind Kirby when landing, which pops opponents right in front of you to combo at lower percents, actually. Definitely advocating that Wave Cutter gets one or two sets.

I'd love to hear why you think Final Destination should be banned, though. I find it to be one of Kirby's best stages, while Battlefield is his worst.

I'm really liking the discussion. Especially, on Olimar. I didn't know that hammer bash was the reason. In that case, I'd probably opt out for using regular Hammer Flip.

1131 is definitely one set I run in doubles.
-Inhale is good if your partner has an ability that you'd like to take. Plus the star shot is a projectile and it's the only setting where it'd make good use--in a 2v2+.
-Default hammer is the best of all hammers to utilize in doubles because it's a balance of the speed and power of all the hammers. If you create a 2v1 situation and your partner grabs the enemy then it's Hammer Flip charge time for the KO! Plus you can utilize it for any open punishes that give you the opportunity to hit 'em with an uncharged swing.
-Upper Cutter is self explanatory as it does everything. Especially make you live longer which is useful in doubles.
-Default stone is good because everyone should be familiar with it already and you'd probably still wouldn't use it much--well more than you would in singles anyway~

It seems people like Meteor Stone vs Olimar. I feel like it's pretty telegraphed and Olimar would just stall/back up till you drop off enough. I'm not found of that custom but I'd love to learn how to use it from you guys if it's been doing wonders for you! Any videos that showcase it? .-.

@ kirbyfan66 I feel your pain. Wave Cutter isn't my preferred one but I like the love that you give it. I'd like to see you advance the metagame of Wave Cutter. That'd be cool to see!

@ WolfieXVII ❂ and @ Ansou , I'd like to hear your thoughts on why those are your preferred sets.

Here's the update~

Spoiler

I want to also maybe copy down people's reasons for utilizing sets so that people won't have to dig for 'em. Hmm...
It's not exactly a vote for which customs we will submit into the project but I wanted to accumulate all the sets that were chosen to see what's popular among everyone and why.

Agree with your doubles set, although I'd say Giant Hammer is more usable. Burying Stone probably comes down to preference in doubles - a strong hitting, yet punishable move, or a weaker, yet practically unpunishable move? Default Stone hits really hard when it does land, while Grounding Stone has much less reward (although it has MORE reward if burying the opponent), yet helps much more with getting back down on the stage.

I need to update my thoughts on Meteor Stone, as I've found much better ways to use it. Against Olimar, no, don't run Meteor Stone. Meteor Stone should be used on vertical recoveries and Villager, who loves to plank and ledge stall. Using Meteor Stone on characters like Shulk and Marth is really good, as they can't pull back to try and avoid it. Characters like Olimar and Duck Hunt can pull back before it comes out, as it's much more telegraphed.

On to actual Meteor Stone uses, though. I'm using Meteor Stone much more lately, as I found a surprisingly good use for it -- ledge trumps! In case you don't know about it, Kirby (and every other character) can cancel their ledge jump into their down special after the character initially crosses the ledge, which allows them to instantly use it. With Meteor Stone, this gains a lot of use through ledge trumps. When ledge trumped, your opponent has a couple options. They can jump back to the stage right away, snap back to the ledge without any invincibility and buffer a ledge option, or try to attack the ledge trumper instead of getting back to the stage right away. After ledge trumping with Kirby, however, he can cover all these options. If they go back to the ledge, jump up and cancel into Meteor Stone to hit them before they can act (there's a set amount of frames you have to hang on the ledge before acting). If they try to jump back to the stage, you can use a ledge jump while holding back to jump straight up and then cancel into Meteor Stone. This'll hit them with the edge of Meteor Stone, sending them plummeting. If they attack, it's basically the same thing, but you're going to want to use it faster so the super armor kicks in before they hit you. Kirby lands on the stage with all of these, so even if you don't time it correctly and miss, the super armor prevents them from punishing you before Kirby can exit the Stone and run away, unless they have some aerial that does 20%. Also, you can only DI into the stage to tech if you're playing on Duck Hunt or a walled omega, as other stages don't let you reach it in time.

Kirby can also use D-Air > Footstool > Meteor Stone to kill incredibly early. This'll almost always get Kirby killed, as you're going to have to fall down to hit the opponent during the footstool, but will in turn kill the opponent as well. If you have a lead, this'll close the match out really fast.

---

I'll go more into it later, but Kirby can secure kills at 50~60%+ on every character if he lands Burying Stone. After 50~60% (depending on character weight), Kirby's U-Tilt and U-Air will pop the opponent out with basically no knockback while still retaining all the hitstun as the regular moves would do. This allows Kirby to do a multitude of things. An example is using Burying Stone > U-Air > U-Air > Upper Cutter on the opponent, or U-Tilt > U-Air > Upper Cutter on the opponent. Kirby has to switch between U-Air, U-Tilt, and U-Tilt's sourspot to ensure that it's a true combo. That'll work until really high percents, in which Kirby can just use U-Air to Upper Cutter or Hammer Bash. This makes Burying Stone much more rewarding than the other Stone variants if landed.

In terms of sets, all I truly care about is that 3231, 3232, and 3233 become sets. They're the best sets to use overall throughout the roster, and should generally be receiving the most use from Kirby mains.

I'll update my full list of sets that I use later, though.

 

[chaosmasterro]

Grounding stone has little to no ending lag compared to normal stone? I have to play around with it.

@ Aunt Jemima I like using meteor stone to catch people who likes to grab the ledge twice. Since meteor stone already puts you in the air it's quick and it's practically a guaranteed kill.

 

[kirbyfan66]

I'd personally like to apologize for writing Wave Cutter off as a horrible move. After using it a bit more, while it isn't a TRUE projectile, having such a long-ranged projectile that hits so hard is AMAZING for walling opponents out. Using it against characters who can easily be walled out and aren't as threatened by Upper Cutter such as Ganondorf, Dedede, Ike, Donkey Kong, etc. is really, REALLY good. It helps Kirby's MUs against the heavy weight so much. Also, it edgeguards Ganondorf and Ike so it's hilarious. Also, Wave Cutter has a small hitbox behind Kirby when landing, which pops opponents right in front of you to combo at lower percents, actually. Definitely advocating that Wave Cutter gets one or two sets.

I'd love to hear why you think Final Destination should be banned, though. I find it to be one of Kirby's best stages, while Battlefield is his worst.

I can agree on Battlefield not being the best. I mostly dislike Final Destination because it's entirely flat. Kirby has no way of escaping faster characters, zoning characters, and characters with more range. It really limits his options. Having platforms is essential for playing Kirby, although this is just my playstyle. I still think not having platforms hurts Kirby regardless of playstyle, but if I can ever see a Kirby do good stuff on Final D, I'll be more than happy to take it back.

I definitely would never use Wave Cutter on Final D. Upper Cutter only. Wave Cutter makes Battlefield a better stage due to platform control, and Upper Cutter makes Final D a better stage since it gives Kirby some more options that make Final D's flatness less of an issue.

 

[WootSnorlax]

@ Aunt Jemima The idea of the default hammer being able be hit out of while charging is also a bonus. You can get hit out of it if you're in a pretty bad situation while holding a charge instead of being grabbed. I understand your thought process though. While it is more of a threat it just isn't something that I feel would be useful in doubles and even more dangerous to pull out than normal hammer. The hammer in general just isn't something you rock out unless it's something flashy or a deep punish.
Default stone, on the other hand, is beast. My doubles partner and I have a way of calling out when either of us are coming down with a drop and it's really useful. We can set up 60% kills because of the way stone kills off the top especially once hit in the air. I use it more in doubles for sure than singles and it doesn't feel like cheese. Sometimes we can mind game the opponent by just calling out a drop but not doing it. It really makes it hard for an opponent to follow up on a move since they have to risk getting hit by stone and dying. If I'm not mistaken the grounding stone has a longer start up right?

I'm saying this for the cause of 1131 being in because I am certain it's a good set for doubles. I like how starshot does 16% and can kill too .

 

[Galaxian]

"3233"

Yes, good. This set is absolutely amazing, I love it to bits.

Hammer Bash is so good I never realized it until I unlocked it, which was just now. It KOs way earlier, seems a little safer, and actually gives Hammer a use. Fun stuff.

Meteor Stone seems tricky, though Upper Cutter saves you from not having enough jumps.

 

[Ansou]

The 17th of march is getting close and we need to make a finalized list of 10 sets before that. I think I have kind of said everything I wanted to say about the subject. I will probably try to adapt to Hammer Bash instead of Hammer Flip as it objectively seems like a generally better option. @ Aunt Jemima You said that you would tell us about your full list of sets. Now should be the time for that so that we can take the final discussion on the 10 sets that we want.

 

[Galaxian]

I will probably try to adapt to Hammer Bash instead of Hammer Flip as it objectively seems like a generally better option.

Really, it is. It's a faster move that KOs, gives you a little air height, and actually gives Hammer a use.

 

[kirbyfan66]

March 17 is that close? *breaths heavily*

Well, whatever decision we come across, I'll accept it. Out of curiosity, do we have any desire for an Ice Breath set? I know in some matchups (namely Yoshi as discussed in the Kirby matchup thread) it could come in handy, but it seems mostly inferior to Jumping Inhale.

 

[Galaxian]

March 17 is that close? *breaths heavily*

Well, whatever decision we come across, I'll accept it. Out of curiosity, do we have any desire for an Ice Breath set? I know in some matchups (namely Yoshi as discussed in the Kirby matchup thread) it could come in handy, but it seems mostly inferior to Jumping Inhale.

Ice Breath is okay in MUs where you feel you don't really need the ability. Jumping Inhale does have it's benefits, and the ice effect doesn't do much.

I'd experiment with it more, though.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Ice Breath is okay in MUs where you feel you don't really need the ability. Jumping Inhale does have it's benefits, and the ice effect doesn't do much.

I'd experiment with it more, though.

Yeah, it could be worth toying around with. I'm sure there's a Kirby player who's in a similar jam to me with Wave Cutter. =P

 

[Galaxian]

I'll say for doubles that regular Hammer Flip is better. Charge up hammer, hold them down, release, free KO.

 

[Altair357]

Mike was using some Ice Breath at NeoNebulous 3, apparently.

I think it's a really useful move for limiting your opponent's options, though matchup dependent.

 

[Ansou]

March 17 is that close? *breaths heavily*

Well, whatever decision we come across, I'll accept it. Out of curiosity, do we have any desire for an Ice Breath set? I know in some matchups (namely Yoshi as discussed in the Kirby matchup thread) it could come in handy, but it seems mostly inferior to Jumping Inhale.

Jumping Inhale is great, but that really doesn't mean that we shouldn't have an Ice Breath set in the list. I would actually say that one or two sets need to have Ice Breath. Maybe one is enough.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Does Ice Breath set us up for anything? As in, if we use Ice Breath, can we follow it up with another move? Not for a true combo, just for setting up. I don't know how long the ice lasts (does it last longer at higher %s?).

All I can say is that I don't think Ice Breath and Wave Cutter match, but that's just my thoughts. Moreover I just think Wave Cutter works well with Jumping Inhale more than Ice Breath.

 

[Ansou]

Does Ice Breath set us up for anything? As in, if we use Ice Breath, can we follow it up with another move? Not for a true combo, just for setting up. I don't know how long the ice lasts (does it last longer at higher %s?).

All I can say is that I don't think Ice Breath and Wave Cutter match, but that's just my thoughts. Moreover I just think Wave Cutter works well with Jumping Inhale more than Ice Breath.

I just tested against a lvl 9 CPU in training and it does combo into Upper Cutter.

 

[Altair357]

Ice Breath launches them further into the air at higher percents. Assuming it combos into Upper Cutter as this percent, this could be a reliable kill setup at the ledge. I'll take it to the lab.

 

[Ansou]

Ice Breath launches them further into the air at higher percents. Assuming it combos into Upper Cutter as this percent, this could be a reliable kill setup at the ledge. I'll take it to the lab.

I tried it at some kill percents and the game registered it as a combo, but this is probably heavily DI reliant. I don't know for sure to which extent it works.

 

[Altair357]

I tried it at some kill percents and the game registered it as a combo, but this is probably heavily DI reliant. I don't know for sure to which extent it works.

Well, it seems that many characters can circumvent Ice Breath simply by jumping over you at the ledge. I think mashing out will prevent an Upper Cutter combo also, but the move still puts them above you, which is a bad position to be in. Ice Breath may find use in things other than edgeguarding; while it seemed useful for that at first, it's too easy to get around for most characters.

 

[Ansou]

Well, it seems that many characters can circumvent Ice Breath simply by jumping over you at the ledge. I think mashing out will prevent an Upper Cutter combo also, but the move still puts them above you, which is a bad position to be in. Ice Breath may find use in things other than edgeguarding; while it seemed useful for that at first, it's too easy to get around for most characters.

Doesn't lvl 9 CPUs mash out insanely fast, meaning that it will be easier against players? I still think that we should include a Ice Breath set as I think we have room for it.

Anyway, the list of movesets we seem to be at right now is:

3231
3232
3233
1231
2231
3221
3131
1331
1233
1332

I basically just took the list @ Amazing Ampharos made and took what @ Aunt Jemima said into consideration. I did not include 1131 in the list as Reserved made some valid points about it, but I know that @ MikeKirby wants it. If anyone is unhappy about this list, PLEASE say so. Also say which set should be replaced by what and say why you think so.

 

[Bribery]

I think 3331 should added so that we have at least 1 Jumping Inhale set with each Hammer. One of the doubles sets could probably be removed for it (1331 or 1332) since they're so similar and only for doubles anyways. Speaking of doubles, I prefer 1331 for doubles, but if the Kirbys that play doubles at high level tournaments prefer 1131, then I think that should be included instead.

 

[Ansou]

I think 3331 should added so that we have at least 1 Jumping Inhale set with each Hammer. One of the doubles sets could probably be removed for it (1331 or 1332) since they're so similar and only for doubles anyways. Speaking of doubles, I prefer 1331 for doubles, but if the Kirbys that play doubles at high level tournaments prefer 1131, then I think that should be included instead.

Hmm I kinda agree with you. Even though Giant Hammer is weird and hard to land, I guess we shouldn't overlook it completely in singles... I also think that we SHOULD include doubles sets in the list as having a separate list for doubles will be very inconvenient. 1331 is probably the best set for doubles in my opinion, but @ Aunt Jemima argued that 1332 would be better. I really don't know how we should do about 1131 as there is a very split opinion about including it or not.

What I think the sets should be:

3231
3232
3233
1231
2231
3221
3131
1331
1233
1332 -> 3331

I would really like to hear what @ Aunt Jemima and @ MikeKirby think about this. But then, @ Amazing Ampharos will be the one to make the final call.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I'll put out my thoughts later. I'm busy for a majority of the day.

 

[Altair357]

Doesn't lvl 9 CPUs mash out insanely fast, meaning that it will be easier against players? I still think that we should include a Ice Breath set as I think we have room for it.

Anyway, the list of movesets we seem to be at right now is:

3231
3232
3233
1231
2231
3221
3131
1331
1233
1332

I basically just took the list @ Amazing Ampharos made and took what @ Aunt Jemima said into consideration. I did not include 1131 in the list as Reserved made some valid points about it, but I know that @ MikeKirby wants it. If anyone is unhappy about this list, PLEASE say so. Also say which set should be replaced by what and say why you think so.

I set the CPU to Control and mashed out myself after getting frozen. It definitely looked like you could escape an Upper Cutter combo, especially since I only rotated the control stick.

With that said, I love Ice Breath and totally think it should be included. 2231 seems good, though I believe the move might have better synergy with Grounding or Meteor Stone due to the matchups in which it's useful. Only time will tell.

 

[Ansou]

I set the CPU to Control and mashed out myself after getting frozen. It definitely looked like you could escape an Upper Cutter combo, especially since I only rotated the control stick.

With that said, I love Ice Breath and totally think it should be included. 2231 seems good, though I believe the move might have better synergy with Grounding or Meteor Stone due to the matchups in which it's useful. Only time will tell.

Just to clarify: The Upper Cutter combo is not when the enemy is actually frozen. I jumped forward as soon as Ice Breath ended and then used Upper Cutter, which hit the enemy with the tip of the sword as the enemy had just popped out of the ice, making the game register it as a combo. But as I said, the enemy might be able to DI away from the Upper Cutter. Also, I really don't know which Stone should be in the Ice Breath set and I have never even tried Ice Breath in a real match... :S