Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Sinz]

No, what I'm saying is don't start the chaingrab facing that way. Start it facing the other way. It's not hard, anybody who can chaingrab can do it.

Its a reverse boost grab.

 

[deepseadiva]

You can in theory, run around in circles like on Hyrule/Sky Pillar.

Here's Hanenbow:

And here's the possible routes around it:

The red route, and the one I assume is the main reason for the "circling", is in actuality a clunky figure 8. There's an interception point area (the triangle formed in the middle).

The blue route could be a problem, as that's a circle. But it's incredibly obvious when going that way and would be marked as stalling.

 

[Mic_128]

And here's the possible routes around it:

The blue route could be a problem, as that's a circle. But it's incredibly obvious when going that way and would be marked as stalling.

How would going from bottom to top via blue be counted as Stalling?

 

[deepseadiva]

The apparent problem is this "circle." While the red route has an obvious and closed interception point, using blue route doesn't.

I should have specified: the blue route usually can only be performed in one direction (downward), but characters like Pit, Rob, Snake, etc., could do it in reverse. Thus moving additionally in the blue route could be considered moving in a "circle" - and thus stalling.

But then, like I've said, that's super obvious. Just catch the player circling and call the stall.

 

[Oracle]

How would going from bottom to top via blue be counted as Stalling?

Falco/snake could camp the bottom and jump up when the other guy goes down there. Then the other guy might not have enough mad hops to get up, so they have to go around on the second plant. When they are almost there, Snake/falco would fall and camp more.

 

[Mic_128]

Falco/snake could camp the bottom and jump up when the other guy goes down there. Then the other guy might not have enough mad hops to get up, so they have to go around on the second plant. When they are almost there, Snake/falco would fall and camp more.

But that's camping, not Stalling.

I should have specified: the blue route usually can only be performed in one direction (downward), but characters like Pit, Rob, Snake, etc., could do it in reverse. Thus moving additionally in the blue route could be considered moving in a "circle" - and thus stalling.

But then, like I've said, that's super obvious. Just catch the player circling and call the stall.

But the act of running around in circles doesn't necessarily equal stalling. Stalling is when they do something to stay in a position where the only way to get them is either flat out impossible (Sonic using Neutral B underneth stages) or in a position that is severly risky (Peach Wallbomb spamming at the bottom of a stag)

Running in a circle isn't either, and is something that is specific to stages rather than characters (as any character who is faster than the other can do it) so sadly causes stages to be banned.

 

[deepseadiva]

So if circling isn't a form of stalling, why is it we ban stages on those terms?

Camping is annoying, certain stages greatly favor it, it could even score KOs occasionally. Yet we don't ban stages on those grounds. There are ways to counteract camping - as there are ways to counteract circling (particularly on Hanenbow due to the interception points).

 

[Mic_128]

So if circling isn't a form of stalling, why is it we ban stages on those terms?

Because where do we draw the line? A character can't run away a little to use projectiles because it'd be counted as circling? Are they only allowed to run a half circle? (Of which they'd wait for the other to catch up then run the other half circle)

It's just too hard to outright judge.

Camping is annoying, certain stages greatly favor it, it could even score KOs occasionally. Yet we don't ban stages on those grounds. There are ways to counteract camping - as there are ways to counteract circling (particularly on Hanenbow due to the interception points).

I agree, personally I doubt many, if any characters could circle run on Hanebow, but the majority of SBR's believe so (and may have had it used against them/used it themselves) .

 

[abma]

i was reading this thread and i DO NOT AGREE AT ALL when people say norfair should be banned. I dont kno the counter pick list 2 well but norfair is a great counter pick wen your going up again a falco or de de de cuz it limits cheezy chain throwing strategies in this game because of the small platforms and not one big main one. from someone who playes donkey kong i love it. and with the lava and the fact you can attack from the bottom of most of the platforms it makes camping harder.as far as stalling goes, i dont think its a good enough reason to ban it. someone who really wants to stall a match can do it anywhere and just cuz its a little easier at norfair doesnt mean it should be banned.And isnt stalling illegal in matches anyway? plus the fact that your giving tether recovery characters a little help doesnt make it unfair in anyway. jwn if anyone agrees.

 

[Slush]

I don't even understand circling, but why should you ban running away to use projectiles? its a defensive/ranged method of fighting, just like aerial and ground fighting, and edge-gaurding, it's another way to hurt your opponent. Obviously, something like the laser lock is questionable, which I haven't investigated, but "circling" or running away to do ranged attacks should not be banned.

As for stages, abma, I can see where you're coming from, but it's so unpredictable on norfair. Putting that aside, the tidal wave of lava really isn't fair either, because, one could camp in there and keep the other out, thus leading to a really ridiculous 20% of damage (or whatever it is). I think it should be banned.

 

[abma]

i dont think the stage hurting you should be a reason to ban it. its not that unpredictable cuz you can see the wave coming or the lava wall coming and its just like any other stage that hurts you. just avoid it, or use it if you can.

 

[.Marik]

At least Port Town isn't completely banned.... ^^;

I wuvs that stage. <3

 

[MysticKenji]

Putting that aside, the tidal wave of lava really isn't fair either, because, one could camp in there and keep the other out, thus leading to a really ridiculous 20% of damage (or whatever it is).

Or you could just shield it.

 

[AlexX]

Or you could just shield it.

As well as sidestep dodge it (or was it called spotdodging? oh well, you get my point...), airdodge, or grab a ledge and use the ledge invincibility to avoid getting hit.

 

[Oracle]

OH NOES!! T3H n00bs!!!

Spoiler

At least they're intelligent

I don't even understand circling, but why should you ban running away to use projectiles? its a defensive/ranged method of fighting, just like aerial and ground fighting, and edge-gaurding, it's another way to hurt your opponent. Obviously, something like the laser lock is questionable, which I haven't investigated, but "circling" or running away to do ranged attacks should not be banned.

As for stages, abma, I can see where you're coming from, but it's so unpredictable on norfair. Putting that aside, the tidal wave of lava really isn't fair either, because, one could camp in there and keep the other out, thus leading to a really ridiculous 20% of damage (or whatever it is). I think it should be banned.

Circling in such a manner that makes it almost impossible to attack the camper should be banned.

 

[abma]

idk anything about circiling, for the sole reason that no ones ever done it to me. But i have played against campers who ran away alot. and for the most part its really hard or at least i make it really hard for them. At any of the neutral stages i use snake morters slide which closes distance easy. with donkey i forward tilt most of there projectiles and creep up. as for other charecters theres always spot doging and air dodging. Thats a whole other argument though. What im saying is that a stage should not be banned just cuz you could run away. Unless its ridiculously big.Im talkin new pork city or hyrule temple status. But norfair? I dont think so. As for hanenbo thats kind of tough but id have to play someone who circles at the stage to really see if its broken

 

[infomon]

Sorry for being a n00b, I searched around a bit and got nothing, but maybe I just fail. Are there official SBR threads where each stage has been discussed? Without a bunch of whiny n00bspam? I'd like to read the real reasons why, say, Pictochat may be viable as a counter stage. Or is that all just buried in this thread somewhere?

 

[MysticKenji]

Nah, that's locked up in the SBR somewhere, I think.
I'd like to see it too though.

 

[Roihu]

Excuse my stupidity, but what's circle camping?
Also air dodging in the giant wave of lava completely shields you from the wave without taking damage.

 

[Oracle]

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Starter/Counter
Castle Siege
Delfino
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1

Counter
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)

Counter/Banned
Green Greens
Mario Circuit
Onett
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld

Banned
75m
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187736 has some discussion.
Norfair was supposed to be banned banned because jiggly and people like that can just hop from ledge to ledge to stall, but it never was.

And, uh...
Mic, whats up with all the mods with cat avatars?

 

[MysticKenji]

Excuse my stupidity, but what's circle camping?

If the stage has a circular layout, a faster character can run away from a slower character on it using the stage's layout.

 

[AlexX]

Norfair is banned because jiggly and people like that can just hop from ledge to ledge to stall.

But that was never proven, though. People kept trying to prove it, but the videos were all clearly set up.

Of course, the official list states that it's a CP and not banned, so the point is probably moot...

 

[Oracle]

But that was never proven, though. People kept trying to prove it, but the videos were all clearly set up.

Of course, the official list states that it's a CP and not banned, so the point is probably moot...

My bad. I meant it was supposed to be banned for that reason. I don't see any reason for it to be banned, though.

 

[x After Dawn x]

You don't need videos for proof, it's pretty obvious on how you can stall on that map. And I did end up supplying a video of ROB stalling on it, but I think it went by unnoticed.

 

[abma]

but stalling is illegal so i dont see y you would ban a stage for that reason plus there's no way to go from edge to edge without at least a couple of frames of venerability. So there are openings.

 

[AlexX]

You don't need videos for proof, it's pretty obvious on how you can stall on that map.

I highly doubt the SBR would have made it a CP without doing some of their own testing on the stage, so if they didn't find reason to ban it, then the stalling methoud is apparently either able to be dealt with or not experienced enough to warrent a ban.

 

[x After Dawn x]

But they never looked for reasons not to ban it. They just looked for reasons why it could have possibly been banned and kept dismissing the reasons.

 

[MarTh-]

I'd really like to see big blue as a counterpick/banned, not just banned.

 

[x After Dawn x]

No, it's not suitable in a tournament environment. It was discussed about...50 pages back or so? Maybe more, maybe less, but you should check it out.

 

[Oracle]

Oh noes!
MOAR XONA!!!

 

[Mic_128]

Norfair is banned because jiggly and people like that can just hop from ledge to ledge to stall.

No it's not, it's an outright Counterpick. It's even on the list you just posted.

Mic, whats up with all the mods with cat avatars?

Azua has a new cat.

Sorry for being a n00b, I searched around a bit and got nothing, but maybe I just fail. Are there official SBR threads where each stage has been discussed? Without a bunch of whiny n00bspam? I'd like to read the real reasons why, say, Pictochat may be viable as a counter stage. Or is that all just buried in this thread somewhere?

There aren't any SBR threads, though that's a good idea. I'll bring it up back there. They might decide to move the threads out here (though highly doubtful) but might do something like what they're doing with the characters.

 

[Dark_Wolf101]

I'm sorry, but why are these stages being banned? And what exactly are they being banned from -- tournaments, discussion boards? Sorry, but I'm a newbie.

 

[infomon]

Heh... banned from tournament play. Or rather, the recommended rule set for tournament organizers.

and welcome to the boards

 

[abma]

this is a strange topic but does anyone think any of the neutral stages should be banned or counter picked? i mean they do give falco and de de de huge advantages.

 

[infomon]

this is a strange topic but does anyone think any of the neutral stages should be banned or counter picked? i mean they do give falco and de de de huge advantages.

Absolutely not banned. Counterpick (or neutral/counter) is the best you could argue, but that would be tough. This has been thought and argued by some very smart people

You should read this post: [link: SBR Recommended Rule List]
It defines what neutral/counter/banned mean and gives a brief explanation for why each stage is where it is.

 

[Mic_128]

That's why you can use stage strikes to remove the ones that give more of an advantage than others.

 

[deepseadiva]

So I'm wondering if the overall goal for the Stage List is to slowly move everything in the Starter/Counter and Counter/Ban groups to definitive Starter, Counter, and Ban listings. The options are kinda messy, not to mention how easy a straightforward list would be.

 

[infomon]

I wonder this as well. I think everyone would be happy if there were clear boundaries. But word is that the meta-game is still young, so I wouldn't expect the SBR to be able to move these stages into solid categories for quite some time yet.

It's especially confusing that TO's must select an odd number of stages from the Starter/Counter list to go into Starter.... choices are hard just sayin'. I don't think the SBR is at fault here.

 

[Mic_128]

It's especially confusing that TO's must select an odd number of stages from the Starter/Counter list to go into Starter.... choices are hard just sayin'. I don't think the SBR is at fault here.

An alternative could be to get down to just two stages and put those two on random select.

 

[infomon]

Huh? only two neutrals? (maybe I'm missing a joke....) anyway that wouldn't work with the stage-striking process.