Official Stage Discussion

[himemiya]

My dream is for a Port Town: Starter Dive that flies around port town like teh brawl level, but instead of landing on the track, it just stops at different locations.

Each location would be the same as the 5 starter Maps.
It starts on a BF clone, moves to a Ps2 clone, then a smashille clone, a GHZ clone and a Dreamland 64 clone.

It stays at each location for 40 seconds, then moves to the next. The stage in transition to the next area is a FD level, and only lasts 5 sec or so.

That could work too as long as it doesn't land on the tracks. Maybe the platform can transitions layout when it gets to the healing station at the end of the track or something.

 

[Xermo]

>make port town into a stage that mimics other existing stages but with a different backdrop
>instead of something creatively unique while being neutral at the same time
I just don't understand why a lot of people enjoy such formulaic design when we have near endless possibility to create something worthwhile.
Too bad PMDT doesn't consider some of the more unique works to come out of Brawlvault. Skeleton's stages would be stellar.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

>make port town into a stage that mimics other existing stages but with a different backdrop
>instead of something creatively unique while being neutral at the same time
I just don't understand why a lot of people enjoy such formulaic design when we have near endless possibility to create something worthwhile.
Too bad PMDT doesn't consider some of the more unique works to come out of Brawlvault. Skeleton's stages would be stellar.

I'm with you there. I'd really like to see a more unique neutral stage, especially since neutral stages already tend to have a similar vibe.

 

[Narpas_sword]

>instead of something creatively unique while being neutral at the same time

Easy to say.

now show me an example of something unique that is at the same time 'neutral' (sic; should be 'legal', no such thing as a neutral stage.)

 

[MegaMissingno]

Mute City with grabbable ledges and no cars would be good enough for me.

 

[Xermo]

Easy to say.

now show me an example of something unique that is at the same time 'neutral' (sic; should be 'legal', no such thing as a neutral stage.)

Legality in stages is quite the flimsy subject. Cavern is certainly neutral, yet not legal; who's to say that Starter Dive would be legal just because it mimics stages that are already so?

In any case: This is nice.
Hey, something you're familiar with
Hey look, workable leftover features
Doubles only? Still looking great.
layout's a bit too linear for me, but hey, it's flat right
Wow it's like he actually tried
I like mine better.

 

[himemiya]

Easy to say.

now show me an example of something unique that is at the same time 'neutral' (sic; should be 'legal', no such thing as a neutral stage.)

At this point what kind of platform layout hasn't been done yet?

 

[Narpas_sword]

Legality in stages is quite the flimsy subject. Cavern is certainly neutral, yet not legal; who's to say that Starter Dive would be legal just because it mimics stages that are already so?

Ah, you are a little off what my intention is. i'll try to describe what i mean better.

'Neutral' is an archaic term that is no longer used, because no stage is neutral.
What was once referred to as neutral stages, are now 'starter' stages.

what i meant by 'legal' was not 'they would be included in a ruleset' but more that 'they are potentially legal' similar to maps like norfair, lylat and metal cavern, that while having nothing wrong with them are not usually used in rulesets.

Hope that clears up what i meant.

And yea, some those examples would be cool, but they're really just variations on the current starters. nothing entirely unique. which was the point. everything is pretty much tried, and we have things that we know work.

What i was looking for in the 'port town: starter' was something that is like a world tour of our current list. Yea it may be boring, but more wild patterns are already in the default fzero.

At this point what kind of platform layout hasn't been done yet?

Exactly my point.

 

[GFooChombey]

>make port town into a stage that mimics other existing stages but with a different backdrop
>instead of something creatively unique while being neutral at the same time
I just don't understand why a lot of people enjoy such formulaic design when we have near endless possibility to create something worthwhile.

Our community seems to want to sterilize the game. Seems like quite a few people are crying out for the wind to be removed from Dream Land. It's only a matter of time until everything is Battlefield, but with different blastzones. We're about to enter a time of Fox only.. No items.. Final Destination Battlefield clones.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Despite being based off of other stages, I would still argue that the 'world tour' idea is pretty unique. Consider the fact that we don't have a single transforming stage in our current tournament stagelist. That's the part that makes it interesting.

However, I don't like the idea of making it an F-Zero stage, or any franchise-specific stage for that matter. I think it'd be cooler to make it a true tour of the original stages with the same look. Though I'm not sure what stage's slot you'd put it in then. Maybe one of the independent/non-franchise stages like Electroplankton or Pictochat.

 

[Sandfall]

Our community seems to want to sterilize the game. Seems like quite a few people are crying out for the wind to be removed from Dream Land. It's only a matter of time until everything is Battlefield, but with different blastzones. We're about to enter a time of Fox only.. No items.. Final Destination Battlefield clones.

Not on my watch.

Despite being based off other stages, I would still argue that the 'world tour' idea is pretty unique. Consider the fact that we don't have a single transforming stage in our current tournament stagelist. That's the part that makes it interesting.

Honestly, the types stages that are used in tournaments today are so sterile, that any sort of transforming stage would probably be seen as "too jank" for tournament play anyway. I mean, we're already at the point where viable stages are being banned simply because we have too many of them. It's pretty unlikely that any new gimmicks will be accepted by TOs at this point.
Regardless, I'd love to see a bit more leniency with stage lists in PM, but it's probably not going to happen

 

[DocStrange]

For the record, Xermo's port town is one of my favorite stages ever.

 

[nimigoha]

Not sure if this has been brought up, but is 3.6 Dreamland gonna have neutral spawns?

 

[MegaMissingno]

Honestly, the types stages that are used in tournaments today are so sterile, that any sort of transforming stage would probably be seen as "too jank" for tournament play anyway. I mean, we're already at the point where viable stages are being banned simply because we have too many of them. It's pretty unlikely that any new gimmicks will be accepted by TOs at this point.
Regardless, I'd love to see a bit more leniency with stage lists in PM, but it's probably not going to happen

Well we've never seen a stage where the transformations weren't awful. Nobody's really tried to make a good dynamic stage, we've been so focused on simpler stages because they're a lot easier, both to make and to justify using in tournaments. But this sounds like the perfect idea for a dynamic stage that just might work. I mean, if the transformations were literally just other legal stages, it'd be hard to immediately shoot down and I would hope people would at least be willing to try it.

There is certainly the issue of too many stages, but even if that ends up keeping it out of tournaments we still have friendlies. I'd definitely love to mess around with friends on something like that.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Well we've never seen a stage where the transformations weren't awful. Nobody's really tried to make a good dynamic stage, we've been so focused on simpler stages because they're a lot easier, both to make and to justify using in tournaments. But this sounds like the perfect idea for a dynamic stage that just might work. I mean, if the transformations were literally just other legal stages, it'd be hard to immediately shoot down and I would hope people would at least be willing to try it.

There is certainly the issue of too many stages, but even if that ends up keeping it out of tournaments we still have friendlies. I'd definitely love to mess around with friends on something like that.

People tend to get caught up on stage transitions though.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Indeed, how the transitions should work is something to think carefully about. I definitely don't want one of those stages where a floating platform keeps picking you up and dropping you off repeatedly (like Delfino Plaza or the billion SSB4 stages that do this), nor do I want the secondary platforms flying in and out from offscreen (like Prism Tower or Town & City). It'd be better to have the main platform stay put (I guess it could resize itself to fit different size stages, but that's it) while platforms either vanish and reappear (like Pokemon Stadium, but with actually good transformations) or rearrange themselves into new configurations (like Dracula's Castle/Delfino's Secret). Also, there should be at least 30 seconds minimum between changes, maybe as much as 45.

 

[Narpas_sword]

or have the platforms stay where they are, and have the stage fly to the next location where new platforms await.
so inbetween layouts it's flat.
warning lets you know that the stage is about to move, and if youre on a platform you simple end up in the air.

best idea:

stages stay one formation, then change when someone dies. so there's no fighting in transformation.

 

[Draco_The]

Honestly, a transforming stage that consists of legal stages is a bad idea, mostly because you won't make casuals nor competitive players happy.

For the first bunch of people there are already stages like Port Town Aero Dive and Castle Siege (and once it's completed and incorporated into PM, which will most probably happen, Melee's Mute City), and having a stage that goes from Final Destination into Battlefield doesn't really add anything new nor crazy that would make it a better stage to play on and have fun than those, and in regards to the competitive players, they are already having issues accepting simple stages like Metal Cavern as legal. How do you think they are going to accept a transforming one, no matter how and what the transformations are made?

 

[GFooChombey]

Are you telling me you wouldn't enjoy a PS remix that has transformations from both that picked based on viability?

 

[Rᴏb]

I'm totally for a stage that transforms between a bunch of the already legal stage layouts. I'm of the opinion that the stage list can constantly be improved and that adding more options is not a bad thing at all. If some TO's wanna be lazy and not try new things, that's fine, but that shouldn't stop the rest of us from experimenting with potentially better stage lists.

I think a transforming stage is something PM sorely lacks. If we have the opportunity to make a transforming stage that provides dynamic gameplay and lacks the flaws that the banned transforming stages have, I don't see a reason to not at least try it out.

 

[Nefnoj]

I, personally, don't mind transforming stages at all, they never seemed to interrupt gameplay too much, with Warioware as the exception. Of all the transforming stages of all the Smash games, I think Arena Ferox handled it the best, if they are to change transforming stages, they could take inspiration from that.

 

[GFooChombey]

So would we be okay with getting new casual stages that transform? I certainly would be. As much as I'm enjoying this conversation...

Spoiler

We're getting off topic. Smashville will never transform.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

So would we be okay with getting new casual stages that transform? I certainly would be. As much as I'm enjoying this conversation...

Spoiler

We're getting off topic. Smashville will never transform.

I do think it would be cool to see some sort of new transforming stage at some point. I'm not sure what it would be based on though. Also, I don't think there's much else to say about Smashville. Anything about stages should be fair game,

 

[Narpas_sword]

Honestly, a transforming stage that consists of legal stages is a bad idea, mostly because you won't make casuals nor competitive players happy.

Really?
In the Venn diagram of 'legal' and 'totally casual' the overlap would be 'legal-ish but not used in tourney' and those are some of my most favorite stages.

I dont want to have my choices as 'battlefield legal' or 'Pirate ship casual'.
i want more middle ground stages like hyrule, norfair and PM Rumble Falls

 

[MegaMissingno]

or have the platforms stay where they are, and have the stage fly to the next location where new platforms await.
so inbetween layouts it's flat.
warning lets you know that the stage is about to move, and if youre on a platform you simple end up in the air.

So like Delfino Plaza and the billion SSB4 stages? Or like Prism Tower and Town & City? Either way, eh, not a big fan of that style. It wouldn't be the worst thing, but I'd prefer if it transformed in place without moving.

best idea:

stages stay one formation, then change when someone dies. so there's no fighting in transformation.

That's pretty clever, but is it even possible to script it that way? And how would it work in 3-4 player matches?

Honestly, a transforming stage that consists of legal stages is a bad idea, mostly because you won't make casuals nor competitive players happy.

For the first bunch of people there are already stages like Port Town Aero Dive and Castle Siege (and once it's completed and incorporated into PM, which will most probably happen, Melee's Mute City), and having a stage that goes from Final Destination into Battlefield doesn't really add anything new nor crazy that would make it a better stage to play on and have fun than those, and in regards to the competitive players, they are already having issues accepting simple stages like Metal Cavern as legal. How do you think they are going to accept a transforming one, no matter how and what the transformations are made?

I think you underestimate how many casual players enjoy simple stages and how many hardcore players do want to see some dynamic elements. Casual-hardcore isn't a boolean, it's a spectrum. There's plenty of players in the middle, so why shouldn't there be stages in the middle?

I have a bunch of casual friends I regularly play with who just like to sit down for some friendly FFAs with each other, no interest at all in going out to tournaments, trying to master techskill, playing doubles instead of FFAs when we have four people, etc. But they still keep the items off and stick to FD, BF, PS2, etc, as well as the ones that are simple but not used in tournaments like Dracula's Castle, Rumble Falls, etc. But still not the crazy gimmicky hazard ones, no way, even they don't like them.

Keep in mind that most people who come to PM are generally looking for something a bit more hardcore than Sakurai's games, even if they aren't all tournament players. Even our "casuals" tend to have a little more of a hardcore leaning than those who are perfectly content with Brawl or SSB4.

And on the flip side of that coin there are plenty of us competitive players who don't mind unwinding with a relaxed FFA from time to time on stages that are a bit more unique. I have a lot of fun hanging out with those friends.

Really?
In the Venn diagram of 'legal' and 'totally casual' the overlap would be 'legal-ish but not used in tourney' and those are some of my most favorite stages.

I dont want to have my choices as 'battlefield legal' or 'Pirate ship casual'.
i want more middle ground stages like hyrule, norfair and PM Rumble Falls

Amen. Dracula's Castle is my next favorite stage after Smashville (though IDK if it counts anymore since Delfino's Secret is supposed to become legal). I also enjoy Rumble Falls, Norfair, Metal Cavern, and all the other "almost-competitive" stages. It's funny, I'm normally picky as hell in the other games, hate PS1 in Melee and the crazy stagelist in SSB4 is a large part of what turned me off of that game. But PM managed to hit that Goldilocks zone and get all these stages just right IMO. And I'd love to have more fun stages like these, whether they get used in tournaments or not.

 

[Narpas_sword]

So like Delfino Plaza and the billion SSB4 stages? Or like Prism Tower and Town & City? Either way, eh, not a big fan of that style. It wouldn't be the worst thing, but I'd prefer if it transformed in place without moving.


That's pretty clever, but is it even possible to script it that way? And how would it work in 3-4 player matches?
.

not sure what the ssb4 stages do, but yea kinda like delphino / how mute city was. cant remember them exactly, didnt play delphino, and been years since i played mute city.

not sure on scripting. im guessing animations in stage files dont have access to things such as the stock count or blastzones.

3/4 player and teams are chaos anyway, wouldnt matter if they move when in play there =p

 

[himemiya]

So would we be okay with getting new casual stages that transform? I certainly would be. As much as I'm enjoying this conversation...

Spoiler

We're getting off topic. Smashville will never transform.

Theres nothing more to discuss about sv anyways, Sandfall should just change the subject to port town aero drive/big blue at this point.

 

[Sandfall]

Well we've never seen a stage where the transformations weren't awful. Nobody's really tried to make a good dynamic stage...

*Ahem* (I'm actually gonna go back and improve this one even further this summer)

Honestly, a transforming stage that consists of legal stages is a bad idea, mostly because you won't make casuals nor competitive players happy.

I sort of agree. Rotating between legal stages would just be boring to design, and wouldn't really feel all that fresh or unique. Even if a stage were to transform between some solidly legal layouts, I'd prefer to make something new or unique, rather than stuff we've already seen before.

We're getting off topic. Smashville will never transform.

I'm okay with the conversation running off topic once in a while as long as there's good discussion going on. But anyway, I'll probably change the topic tomorrow if I remember.

 

[The Incinerator]

Well I'll quickly post some smashville ideas before the topic changes then. For one I really like k.k. Slider present all the time but that doesn't mean I want just that one version of the stage 24/7, rather I think the stage should have season changes and in each of these alts they incorporate k.k. Slider. (It would be cool if the stage changed with the real world seasons by accessing the internal clock like in animal crossing but I doubt that is possible) for example in the winter version of the stage k.k. Could perhaps be in an igloo and in summer he could be in a tent strumming by the fire. Also I think that the smashville main platform could maybe get the same treatment as distant planet, as distant planet's platform used to be just a box but they made it into a stump and now it looks much better. Perhaps smashvilles platform could be made to look more like an actual animal crossing village in the same way.
Also for an alt idea I really liked the train idea someone suggested where you are on the train but I think another reinvisioning of this idea that could be really cool would be making the stage platform the train station platform from animal crossing and then having various trains come by and stop at the station briefly. Each train would bring with it a different platform layout, kind of mirroring the platform that moves back and forth on smashville already except this would be a whole variety of platform variations moving back and forth and not just the One platform .
I am mostly just adding to things others have already partly discussed but hopefully this adds some new thoughts for consideration.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

I actually don't like the idea of an ever present K.K. Slider. There's just something special about him only being there when you boot up the game on Saturday night.

 

[Zach777]

Smashville. This stage is great as it is. I agree with the people who say it should have more flare in the visual department.

The only thing I would change for Smashville is how far the platforms move out. With how far out it goes now, it makes it where players have to wait for it to come back. Easy fix, make the platform stop before or only a little bit after it leaves the main section. This small change would make the platform bound player have to act sooner. Just my opinion.

Pictochat would be the perfect stage to have transformations of legal stages. Gusty guy that blows like a hurricane can be changed into Dreamland and have Wispy blow gently. You would be able to retain the more unique transformations and remove the ones with the intrusive walls.

Pictochat transformation could lastlonger and draw much slower giving players time for forethought. The transforming process of Pictochat is already great because it doesn't have platforms that rise up and catch you and ruin your combos.

Please leave PTAD the way it is in 3.5 because I love it.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Smashville. This stage is great as it is. I agree with the people who say it should have more flare in the visual department.

The only thing I would change for Smashville is how far the platforms move out. With how far out it goes now, it makes it where players have to wait for it to come back. Easy fix, make the platform stop before or only a little bit after it leaves the main section. This small change would make the platform bound player have to act sooner. Just my opinion.

Pictochat would be the perfect stage to have transformations of legal stages. Gusty guy that blows like a hurricane can be changed into Dreamland and have Wispy blow gently. You would be able to retain the more unique transformations and remove the ones with the intrusive walls.

Pictochat transformation could lastlonger and draw much slower giving players time for forethought. The transforming process of Pictochat is already great because it doesn't have platforms that rise up and catch you and ruin your combos.

Please leave PTAD the way it is in 3.5 because I love it.

That pictochat idea is actually kinda genius, and would make for a good alt. I'm not sure whether or not we should have a transforming stage based on legals, but if there is then this is how it should be done.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Pictochat drawings of other stages would be really cool.

 

[Nefnoj]

There are a total of 27 different drawings.

As a casual, I definitely would not mind if they were toned down from their hazardous ways to mimic iconic stages in Smash history. In fact, I think I'd prefer it... The hazards there only got in the way. There is - in fact - sometimes such thing as too much.

Interestingly enough, there are 29 stages in Melee, minus two for Battlefield and Final Destination... Makes 27.

You could probably feature every stage Brawl, Melee, and Smash 64 cut from Project M in this stage that way if you wanted and were clever. You guys are clever and we all love you.

 

[Draco_The]

I'll probably change the topic tomorrow if I remember.

 

[Sandfall]

I apologize for not updating this earlier. I've been on a trip with intermittent internet access.

Anyway, let's discuss a transforming stage: Castle Siege!

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

I like Castle Siege, even though I may be in the minority. I'm glad that they brought the second level back too. My only gripe is that the transformation can be kinda weird at time and can lead to unexpected saves or deaths. I doný have anything too meaningful to say.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Remove the walk off and the ground floor on the second stage of Castle Siege and make the focus the statue platforms and I would be happy with it.

If people are concerned that it wouldn't look like you were falling high enough to be KOed, make the statues bigger so you can't even see their legs which would give the illusion you are falling from a gigantic height.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Take the second part out again.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

The second part is actually my favorite. It's not very competitive, but I enjoy it. I guess that most people don't like the walkoff