Official Stage Discussion

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Or have this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaUk6FTQYH8

I guess I'm in the minority of absolutely not liking this stage. For one, I imagine that it could get pretty confusing if someone was playing as G&W, and the background is also very distracting in general. It's just bland too.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Or have this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaUk6FTQYH8

Interesting layout with those two platforms like that, but that background seems fairly distracting, and confusing when G&W is one of the players. Also I'd prefer to see some sort of dynamic element involved. It'd make perfect thematic sense for a G&W stage to have a couple platforms that appear and disappear.

Though as I said before, what I'd really want most is a stage specifically built for Stamina, and FZ seems like the perfect spot for it given that it's already so crazy there.

Anyway, regarding debates over "too many competitive stages", isn't ASL supposed to be the perfect compromise for that? Are we really still having this argument even now?

 

[nimigoha]

A fully boxed in stage would be really cool for Stamina.

 

[Saikyoshi]

A fully boxed in stage would be really cool for Stamina.

But it wouldn't exactly be healthy for the single player modes, now, would it? It would make All-Star 100% unplayable since G-dubs is the first match!

 

[MegaMissingno]

But it wouldn't exactly be healthy for the single player modes, now, would it? It would make All-Star 100% unplayable since G-dubs is the first match!

Didn't they say that ASL stages don't show up in single player?

Anyway, given that Type 3 Stamina is all the rage now, I'd rather have the opposite, a totally open stage with just a walkoff and nothing else. You can already make a box in Stage Builder anyway.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Me, I'd personally like if we kept FZ as a transforming stage, but making its layouts safer. For example, one possibility:

• Main hub: Boxing (with Manhole platforms)
• Transformation 1: Zelda (Bottom Screen)
• Transformation 2: Egg
• Transformation 3: Greenhouse (Top screen)

It wouldn't be legal, of course, but it would be better for friendlies like that.

(Would you believe that I only recently learned what "friendlies" are?)

 

[himemiya]

O come on guys, you can't have enough counter pickable/semi-competitive stages!

I guess I'm in the minority of absolutely not liking this stage. For one, I imagine that it could get pretty confusing if someone was playing as G&W, and the background is also very distracting in general. It's just bland too.

Its still a neat idea for a tourney-legit fz stage, eh? Yeah it could use adjustment but still.

Anyway, regarding debates over "too many competitive stages", isn't ASL supposed to be the perfect compromise for that? Are we really still having this argument even now?

Yes and apparently so.
Yeah casuals will play/buy anything when its new and relevant so yeah who cares what they think.

 

[Player -0]

I hate this stage.

That is all.

Also please don't make this tournament legal. I want to let it rot on my page 2.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I hate Flat Zone 2. I think it's totally irredeemable, and don't even care enough to post anything constructive.

 

[Sandfall]

I hate Flat Zone 2. I think it's totally irredeemable, and don't even care enough to post anything constructive.

With ASL, we will leave Flat Zone 2 as it is. I'm more or less seeing what you guys would want to see from a brand new G&W stage (if we were to make one).

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

So, random ASL Idea. How about the area where you fight Meta Ridley in SSE as an alt for Big Blue? I'm can't think of anything else that would fit for that stage.

 

[GFooChombey]

With ASL, we will leave Flat Zone 2 as it is. I'm more or less seeing what you guys would want to see from a brand new G&W stage (if we were to make one).

Flat Zone 1 of course.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Still, I don't really have anything to say about that.
Disappearing stuff would be a must for an LCD screen, but I couldn't say how.
I do dislike the symmetry present in the YouTube link, and agree that having indistinguishable copies of a playable character present in the background is a bad idea.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I'd make the new transforming GW stage I mentioned earlier myself if I knew how to make stages at all. But I can't make sense head or tail of Brawlbox.

 

[Nefnoj]

My favourite thing about Flat Zone 2 is its size. Should probably throw that out there. If you guys made a new flatzone, you should make it huge.

You can never have too many competitive-styled stages, I hate it when people claim otherwise as if casual players don't use them just as much. But it's not like Flatzone could ever be that even if some of the overpowered elements were reduced a little and like the above poster said remove the handheld border.

I think you can have too many competitive-styled stages, not because how often us casuals use them, (I use 'em all the time 'cause they're pretty) but because I don't see very many drastic differences from each competitive stage. For instance, I see Skyworld as a Battlefield clone.

I certainly don't mind competitive stages, heck, I wouldn't mind more competitive stages, I just want each one to have their own clever differences, so they don't feel the same as another stage.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Even stages that don't see competitive play at all like Hanenbow M and Skyloft could be called competitive makeovers of previously noncompetitive stages. Because they take away the worst elements that cause randomness and distill the concept to its core.

So if more stages were like those, I don't see what the problem is which I think you'd agree with. The stereotype of every remade stage that doesn't have things falling on you being the same platform configuration on a flat stage doesn't have to hold true.

 

[Nefnoj]

Even stages that don't see competitive play at all like Hanenbow M and Skyloft could be called competitive makeovers of previously noncompetitive stages. Because they take away the worst elements that cause randomness and distill the concept to its core

So if more stages were like those, I don't see what the problem is which I think you'd agree with. The stereotype of every remade stage that doesn't have things falling on you being the same platform configuration on a flat stage doesn't have to hold true.

I like your logic.

I like it a lot.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Speaking of Hanenbow, I love the music on that stage.

I wonder if any other P:M-original songs will sprout up...

 

[flintconfirmed]

I know how pointless it is to argue on the net so forgive me for this selfish post. People can dislike the stage I'm okay with that. But all the background G&Ws are faded and distinguishable. There are 3 shades, light, medium, and dark. Only the dark has interaction. All the bg G&Ws are bigger, yours is clearly smaller, take a look at the screenshots. They're better quality than the video. I'm sorry if i seem salty, i just like all points to be known in any debate.
http://smaaaash.net/parachute/

 

[Saikyoshi]

Yeah, I like Parachute on a personal level and always put it in my stage expansion codeset.
I don't think I'd include it in the game proper, though, personally. I agree that it is a tad bland.

 

[himemiya]

I know how pointless it is to argue on the net so forgive me for this selfish post. People can dislike the stage I'm okay with that. But all the background G&Ws are faded and distinguishable. There are 3 shades, light, medium, and dark. Only the dark has interaction. All the bg G&Ws are bigger, yours is clearly smaller, take a look at the screenshots. They're better quality than the video. I'm sorry if i seem salty, i just like all points to be known in any debate.
http://smaaaash.net/parachute/

Just to add to this post, its not like gnw's only has black as a color option.

 

[Rᴏb]

I really enjoy parachute myself and I don't agree that it is bland looking, at least in the sense that it has quite a bit going on for a competitive stage. I guess you could say that the Game & Watch theme is bland itself, but I feel like that can't be helped.

Even if parachute is off that table, I hope to see a competitive stage that takes inspiration from one of the Game & Watch games.

 

[MegaMissingno]

I know how pointless it is to argue on the net so forgive me for this selfish post. People can dislike the stage I'm okay with that. But all the background G&Ws are faded and distinguishable. There are 3 shades, light, medium, and dark. Only the dark has interaction. All the bg G&Ws are bigger, yours is clearly smaller, take a look at the screenshots. They're better quality than the video. I'm sorry if i seem salty, i just like all points to be known in any debate.
http://smaaaash.net/parachute/

They're not completely indistinguishable, but I feel like in the heat of battle it's close enough to be distracting and throw you off.

 

[Rᴏb]

If you get distracted by a stage element as unobtrusive as that I think you deserve to lose.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Even if you're only mislead for a fraction of a second before recognizing which is the real one, that's still not good, poor readability can dull your reactions. No other stage puts a playable character in the background for this very reason. It's just bad design.

 

[Nefnoj]

Even if you're only mislead for a fraction of a second before recognizing which is the real one, that's still not good, poor readability can dull your reactions. No other stage puts a playable character in the background for this very reason. It's just bad design.

Agreed. And with all the action happening in competitive play, one small thing - one subtle bip of a background Game & Watch, can be just enough to ruin your game. You'll miss just a millisecond, giving your opponent enough of a change to plop your face in. It's almost like trying to have Onett be competitive, it just won't work. And those platform angles are weird. If a player was playing as Mr. Game & Watch, that'd be even worse. In fact, even the current Flat Zone has less background distractions.

I just hope that whatever they choose for the alternate Flat Zone is huge.

 

[Rᴏb]

No other stage puts a playable character in the background for this very reason.

This is a good observation, but I don't think I can agree with the idea that the background element is intrusive enough to affect gameplay in any measurable way; Flat Zone 1, and 2's don't seem to even though they also feature G&W look-a-likes. Also, if for a moment we were to pretend that there is a way to measure the effect of this background element, wouldn't it affect all players equally? Playing as G&W would only mean that while my opponent has to keep track of where I actually am, I have to as well.

A question I'd like to ask to follow up this discussion is do you have a problem with any of the other stages where G&W is hard to see? He's able to essentially blend in with a lot of stage backgrounds already depending on which color you go with. Here's a rough (and slightly outdated) list of which colors to use on certain stages for maximum confusion:

Spoiler

Here's a quick guide:

• Yoshi's (Melee) - Cyan - The colors here are extremely bright.

• Battlefield - Blue - The stage is mostly grey and brown so not much to blend in against, but the skybox is deep blue and when it becomes night everything becomes very blue.

• Pokemon Stadium 2 - Blue - Everything about this stage is blue

• Final Destination - Black - The stage never gets as dark as it did in melee, but black is still the best option.

• Smashville - Green/Yellow/Blue - Pay attention to what time of day it is when you start your match because Green or Yellow are great for day but Blue is the only acceptable night.

• Dreamland - Green/Cyan/Yellow - Green is probably the best here because the tree is so overgrown, but Cyan blends into the skybox and Yellow works against the tree itself.

• Fountain of Dreams - Blue/Cyan/Black - Black works great off stage, Cyan works better on stage Blue is an effective compromise

• Yoshi's (Brawl) - Yellow - The grass color here is always slightly yellow, so spring through fall yellow works great. Winter sucks no matter what color you choose

• Lylat Cruise - Black - Obviously

• Pokemon Stadium 1 - Black - You might think green or even colors to match the different transitions, but the background is consistently black and the whole stage is generally dark.

• WarioWare- Blue/Green - There isn't a great answer for this stage, but the background isn't dark enough for black so go with the darkish colors.

• Green Hill Zone - Green/Yellow/Cyan - Green and Yellow are obvious, but the colors here are also really bright so Cyan isn't a bad choice.

• Skyloft - Cyan - You spend the majority of this stage looking at skyboxes so be one with the sky.

• Skyworld - Yellow - Yellow yellow yellow yellow

• Metal Cavern - Blue - Just not dark enough for black

• Halberd - Red - Finally a red stage. And boy is it ever red. This is by far the best camo-watch stage.

• Castle Siege - Red - Transformation 2 is all lava and transformation 1 has red roofs

• Norfair - Red - Laaaaaava

• Dracula's Castle - Red - And that concludes the red block

• Rumble Falls - Yellow - Don't let the trees fool you. They are yellow.

Distant Planet - Yellow - It rains every so often, but not enough to warrant a color switch.

Personally, I find the ability to this to be far more intrusive compared to parachute's background.

 

[MegaMissingno]

That's why G&W has an outline though.

 

[Rᴏb]

So you're saying his outline makes it easy to distinguish him from the background? How convenient- I guess that settles that.

 

[himemiya]

So you're saying his outline makes it easy to distinguish him from the background? How convenient- I guess that settles that.

Its a good thing people use nametags anyways so theres that. Also that stage I showed bg is no different from fz1/2 and the actual game, its all ugly n bland and has a bunch crap all over the bg and it what makes fz1/2 what it is.

Now thats out of the way whats it gonna take for @ Sandfall to take in that stage for a possible alt for fz in the future?

 

[Sandfall]

Its a good thing people use nametags anyways so theres that. Also that stage I showed bg is no different from fz1/2 and the actual game, its all ugly n bland and has a bunch crap all over the bg and it what makes fz1/2 what it is.

Now thats out of the way whats it gonna take for @ Sandfall to take in that stage for a possible alt for fz in the future?

Taking in non-PMDT work for future stages is extremely unlikely.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

This is a good observation, but I don't think I can agree with the idea that the background element is intrusive enough to affect gameplay in any measurable way; Flat Zone 1, and 2's don't seem to even though they also feature G&W look-a-likes. Also, if for a moment we were to pretend that there is a way to measure the effect of this background element, wouldn't it affect all players equally? Playing as G&W would only mean that while my opponent has to keep track of where I actually am, I have to as well.

A question I'd like to ask to follow up this discussion is do you have a problem with any of the other stages where G&W is hard to see? He's able to essentially blend in with a lot of stage backgrounds already depending on which color you go with. Here's a rough (and slightly outdated) list of which colors to use on certain stages for maximum confusion:

Spoiler

Here's a quick guide:

• Yoshi's (Melee) - Cyan - The colors here are extremely bright.

• Battlefield - Blue - The stage is mostly grey and brown so not much to blend in against, but the skybox is deep blue and when it becomes night everything becomes very blue.

• Pokemon Stadium 2 - Blue - Everything about this stage is blue

• Final Destination - Black - The stage never gets as dark as it did in melee, but black is still the best option.

• Smashville - Green/Yellow/Blue - Pay attention to what time of day it is when you start your match because Green or Yellow are great for day but Blue is the only acceptable night.

• Dreamland - Green/Cyan/Yellow - Green is probably the best here because the tree is so overgrown, but Cyan blends into the skybox and Yellow works against the tree itself.

• Fountain of Dreams - Blue/Cyan/Black - Black works great off stage, Cyan works better on stage Blue is an effective compromise

• Yoshi's (Brawl) - Yellow - The grass color here is always slightly yellow, so spring through fall yellow works great. Winter sucks no matter what color you choose

• Lylat Cruise - Black - Obviously

• Pokemon Stadium 1 - Black - You might think green or even colors to match the different transitions, but the background is consistently black and the whole stage is generally dark.

• WarioWare- Blue/Green - There isn't a great answer for this stage, but the background isn't dark enough for black so go with the darkish colors.

• Green Hill Zone - Green/Yellow/Cyan - Green and Yellow are obvious, but the colors here are also really bright so Cyan isn't a bad choice.

• Skyloft - Cyan - You spend the majority of this stage looking at skyboxes so be one with the sky.

• Skyworld - Yellow - Yellow yellow yellow yellow

• Metal Cavern - Blue - Just not dark enough for black

• Halberd - Red - Finally a red stage. And boy is it ever red. This is by far the best camo-watch stage.

• Castle Siege - Red - Transformation 2 is all lava and transformation 1 has red roofs

• Norfair - Red - Laaaaaava

• Dracula's Castle - Red - And that concludes the red block

• Rumble Falls - Yellow - Don't let the trees fool you. They are yellow.

Distant Planet - Yellow - It rains every so often, but not enough to warrant a color switch.

Personally, I find the ability to this to be far more intrusive compared to parachute's background.

Even if it impedes all players then that is still not a positive. It might actually make it a bit worse. Also, the other FZ stages are different as the G&W "lookalikes" are not only more visually distinct, but they are far less intrusive. They're stuck to their own set part of the screen, so players are well aware of them already. They're not popping in and out all over the place.

 

[The Incinerator]

One thing that I think would be cool as a stage idea for flatzone would be to take advantage of the changing layouts and have the stage change between various g&w themed versions of the starter stages. This would allow the pmdt to go with some creative freedom when converting other stages to the flat g&w aesthetic while also giving competitive stages a new casual flair with the changing layouts

 

[MegaMissingno]

That would be really cool. Having a transforming stage that combines other competitive stages, like a greatest hits mashup.

 

[The Incinerator]

Yea basically! I was thinking each stage could also try to become it's own themed game. You could have Dreamland be a catch the apples game having the occasional apple fall and be intractable like the balloons on smashville perhaps, have green hill zone maybe steal elements from sonic spinball to give it a more g&w game look. It would take a lot of work artistically but I think that trying to make all these stages look like there own g&w game would look really cool in the end and be a great tribute to the artistic style of those games. Maybe you could even have a score counter in the right corner to count how many time you say hit an apple on Dreamland or something, just a thought for a little something silly and fun making sure the stage would appeal to both the casual and competitive gamer alike

 

[themaziest]

^ This is a REALLY nice idea. I'd love a stage like that.

 

[flintconfirmed]

Yea basically! I was thinking each stage could also try to become it's own themed game. You could have Dreamland be a catch the apples game having the occasional apple fall and be intractable like the balloons on smashville perhaps, have green hill zone maybe steal elements from sonic spinball to give it a more g&w game look. It would take a lot of work artistically but I think that trying to make all these stages look like there own g&w game would look really cool in the end and be a great tribute to the artistic style of those games. Maybe you could even have a score counter in the right corner to count how many time you say hit an apple on Dreamland or something, just a thought for a little something silly and fun making sure the stage would appeal to both the casual and competitive gamer alike

I really love this idea! If FZ1 isn't in, this definitely gets my vote.

I just wanna say again I'm not campaigning to have the Parachute stage in PM, just that the previous complaints against it have solutions already.

Consider giving me a Skeleton Stage Fangirl badge. Haha.

 

[MegaMissingno]

The more I think about it though, I'm not sure FZ is the best stage for this idea. Especially if you have to just make things up that aren't actual G&W games. I'd love to see the concept of a stage that cycles between other stages explored somewhere else though.

 

[The Incinerator]

Yea I can see what you are saying, the content of the stages would be invented somewhat from thin air but the way I see it is that it is more of a tribute to those games than anything, those games will never be produced again so we will never see what games could have been made for that system if it had continued but if it had who knows some of nintendo's favourite mascots could of had game and watch games (mario did I believe).

The main reason I would want this to happen actually is because I would love to see the ideas the pmdt could come up with to represent these stages in this style... actually I wouldn't even mind if it wasn't just limited to starters but counter picks could get the treatment too (partially cause I don't think battlefield would transfer over that well to this style and I also want to see g&w style zebesians beeping across the background of norfair) It definitely would take a lot of creativity to pull off well and g&w fans might not like the lack of authenticity I suppose but I still think it could be pulled off well

 

[himemiya]

Taking in non-PMDT work for future stages is extremely unlikely.

Okay then what about building a stage thats similiar to parachute in terms of stage layout?