Official Stage Discussion

[Sandfall]

While we are making suggestions, would you guys consider having one version of Castle Siege where the second walk off transformation is cut like it used to be and another where it is there? The new code makes that entirely possible.

The second transformation was actually disabled via the codeset, so the new code wouldn't work for that. I'm toying with the idea of balancing the second transformation though

Since Skyworld is continuing to be phased out of usage, apparently even being sent off to death the third row in 3.6, I've decided to illustrate my ideas to improve it
[/spoiler]

Skyworld will still be used in tournaments so it's not going to get changed in the future. The idea there is pretty cool though, so I might play around with it as a personal project in the future.

Upon landing on a cloud, the cloud will disappear after 3 seconds, and reappear 10 seconds after disappearance.

That's not possible, unfortunately. I almost got that to work a while back, but a few quirks with the rainbow cruise stage module prevented it from working.

Saffron's Pokémon hazards aren't going to be recreated, I don't see Hyrule Castle's tornado coming back, Kongo Jungle 64 doesn't have the barrel, but why do all those stages get a pass while Melee Peach's Castle doesn't?

Those hazards infrequently interfere with the battle. Melee Peach's Castle is a very interactive stage. The layout is constantly changing and the Banzai Bill ensures players are constantly moving around the stage. It's a drastically different stage without hazards. Regardless, when you're dealing with limited stage slots, sometimes stuff has to be cut in order to add new content. Fortunately, it's very easy to add those stages back. We will even be making a tutorial for it.

 

[himemiya]

The second transformation was actually disabled via the codeset, so the new code wouldn't work for that. I'm toying with the idea of balancing the second transformation though

Idea, Have a bigger statue hold together part of the 2nd phase

Without walk offs of course.

 

[Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm]

I'm no coder so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but while the banzai bill and switches seem like they'd be complicated to implement, it doesn't feel like the appearing/disappearing platforms would be difficult to implement when you could get things like Randall to work. If the stage changes are necessary to the stage passing quality control, how difficult would it be to have the platforms and blocks appear and disappear on a timer, similar to how Randall moves around his stage?

Though even without that, Peach's Castle Melee still is a unique stage with the large wall in the middle on both sides. If it's going to be cut, are there any considerations of a custom stage implementing a similar layout in the future?

 

[Kati]

Feedback concerning aesthetics:

Distant Planet, Metal Cavern, Hyrule 64. All given loving attention. As of 3.6, they will all be stunning (the former is currently only held back by a texture or two). But all of them have a trait that breaks smash convention. They are all super low to the ground for normal (not walk-off) stages. By ground I mean the background's ground.

Traditionally, stages float high in the sky, or reside somewhere where there is gravity, but no telling what one will be pulled down to. If the bg's ground is super close, one can question why the character is ko'd in the first place rather than simply jump back up to stage. It's not question from a gameplay perspective, but purely an aesthetic one. There's a lot of drama to be had in fighting high up somewhere, and I hope to see more of that basic element in future PM stage remixes.

 

[Draco_The]

Wouldn't the Pokémon in Saffron and the Bill Banzai be possible now that you can add hitboxes to stage stuff?

 

[Llama Juice]

The hitbox that we added to the thwomp is very limited. It's a hitbox that gives off a "spike" effect (not to be confused with being spiked by a player. This is like hitting something sharp, a spike). Thwomps have spikes. It conveniently works out in that one situation. Having pokemon or banzai bill give a spike effect does not make sense and doesn't act the way that those hazards are intended to work.

We keep trying to do new things and we keep trying to implement stuff that you guys want. Sandfall has gone nuts trying to figure all this out and he's making progress, but right now the best we have for new hazards are the thwomps in Bowser's Castle.

 

[Sandfall]

I'm no coder so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but while the banzai bill and switches seem like they'd be complicated to implement, it doesn't feel like the appearing/disappearing platforms would be difficult to implement when you could get things like Randall to work. If the stage changes are necessary to the stage passing quality control, how difficult would it be to have the platforms and blocks appear and disappear on a timer, similar to how Randall moves around his stage?

Though even without that, Peach's Castle Melee still is a unique stage with the large wall in the middle on both sides. If it's going to be cut, are there any considerations of a custom stage implementing a similar layout in the future?

Most stage work involves no coding, actually. But it's not necessarily that simple. It's possible to do something similar to that, but it would just be janky and more trouble than it's worth. I can't say anything about future content, but if we ever get stage expansion, Peach's Castle has a chance at coming back. No promises though

Wouldn't the Pokémon in Saffron and the Bill Banzai be possible now that you can add hitboxes to stage stuff?

We actually can't add hitboxes to stage stuff. The way we got the Thwomp spikes to work was to use a Target Test stage module. The spikes in the target tests use a special collision that hurts you when you touch it. It's necessarily anything new, just something that nobody has ever really used before.

Feedback concerning aesthetics:

Distant Planet, Metal Cavern, Hyrule 64. All given loving attention. As of 3.6, they will all be stunning (the former is currently only held back by a texture or two). But all of them have a trait that breaks smash convention. They are all super low to the ground for normal (not walk-off) stages. By ground I mean the background's ground.

Traditionally, stages float high in the sky, or reside somewhere where there is gravity, but no telling what one will be pulled down to. If the bg's ground is super close, one can question why the character is ko'd in the first place rather than simply jump back up to stage. It's not question from a gameplay perspective, but purely an aesthetic one. There's a lot of drama to be had in fighting high up somewhere, and I hope to see more of that basic element in future PM stage remixes.

That.... is a really good point. We'll make sure to keep that in mind with future stages. Thank you!

Edit: ninja'd by llama

 

[Draco_The]

I heard something about the target test stage in DSX8's thread in kc-mm so I guess it was that.

You guys know way more than me, but since it's a hitbox like any other wouldn't it have a flag parameter? Maybe you could find it with an hex editor and change it so it gives a burn effect or any other thing.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Feedback concerning aesthetics:

Distant Planet, Metal Cavern, Hyrule 64. All given loving attention. As of 3.6, they will all be stunning (the former is currently only held back by a texture or two). But all of them have a trait that breaks smash convention. They are all super low to the ground for normal (not walk-off) stages. By ground I mean the background's ground.

Traditionally, stages float high in the sky, or reside somewhere where there is gravity, but no telling what one will be pulled down to. If the bg's ground is super close, one can question why the character is ko'd in the first place rather than simply jump back up to stage. It's not question from a gameplay perspective, but purely an aesthetic one. There's a lot of drama to be had in fighting high up somewhere, and I hope to see more of that basic element in future PM stage remixes.

The only one I'd fully agree with you on is Distant Planet, as the stump is pretty low. With Hyrule Castle you're falling from the roof of a castle, which is pretty high. Metal Cavern is also pretty elevated, so it's understandable.

 

[Xermo]

Feedback concerning aesthetics:

Distant Planet, Metal Cavern, Hyrule 64. All given loving attention. As of 3.6, they will all be stunning (the former is currently only held back by a texture or two). But all of them have a trait that breaks smash convention. They are all super low to the ground for normal (not walk-off) stages. By ground I mean the background's ground.

Traditionally, stages float high in the sky, or reside somewhere where there is gravity, but no telling what one will be pulled down to. If the bg's ground is super close, one can question why the character is ko'd in the first place rather than simply jump back up to stage. It's not question from a gameplay perspective, but purely an aesthetic one. There's a lot of drama to be had in fighting high up somewhere, and I hope to see more of that basic element in future PM stage remixes.

The characters are pikmin sized. A fall from that height would kill them (or break something) anyway. It's perfectly reasonable.

Also let's not glaze over the many other stages with non-kill heights like melee peach castle, great bay, GHZ, Omega Onett, etc. Aesthetic of the level justifies the height.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Skyworld will still be used in tournaments so it's not going to get changed in the future.

I dunno about you but my area hasn't used Skyworld in a while (mostly due to the aforementioned top platform), and they certainly won't now since the third row is effectively considered part of the second page. The intention is to make the stage better for tournament play by allowing characters a unique, cogitative way to handle the platform, and just overall give the stage more nuance and depth so choosing it is more deliberate.

 

[JCOnyx]

My only gripe is the layout of the SSS. The bottom row seems to be going from small -> large in terms of both blastzones and their main platform length (I already know about the changes to Delfino's Secret's blastzones, thank god they were changed from Drac's). Yet the 2nd row this is only somewhat true for the middle 5 stages, making me question the placement of Lylat and Norfair in particular. Perhaps finding a better way to organize them where it gets this main concept across would be ideal? Maybe something along the lines of this:

I don't know, it just seems to read better to me. It might just be a personal preference. I kept FD in the middle even though it should probably be placed on the far right lol.

Also, have you guys ever experimented with a short ceiling Lylat? I feel that with it's layout, and with PM not having may short ceiling stages to begin with, it would make for a much more interesting counterpick than it currently is. The stage would benefit a large portion of the cast for a variety of different reasons in certain matches (slopes, ledges, low plats, low ceiling, no walls, wide base). Idk, just tossing the idea out there.

Norfair just really needs to have it's moving platforms not go so high. Not drastically mind you, just ever so slightly lowered since it makes it really easy for some characters to camp others out by just moving around on the platforms during certain transformation periods. It's one of my favorite PM stages even with this flaw, so I hope you guys continue to balance it till it's just right.

My biggest gripe with Skyworld is always having platforms above ledges. It makes edgeguarding stupidly easy for some characters, and the dynamic is just not something I'm comfortable with being in a legal stage. Not to mention the top platform, which is easy to camp on, and the large blastzones. The 3.5 main platform size reduction was also kinda upsetting. I just don't really like the stage and I'm rather happy it's being banished to the top row lol.

That's all I really have to say on the topic. I'm really looking forward to playing on Bowser's Castle though, I'll try to gentleman people there in a couple 3.6 tourneys once it drops lol.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I just don't really like the stage and I'm rather happy it's being banished to shadow realm.

There. Fixed it for you.

 

[Nefnoj]

Sandfall What's your policy on alternate stages?

I wish, with all my heart, for Kongo Jungle to be an alt for Jungle Japes, since both stages take place just a few feet away from each-other. Same with Pokéfloats for Spear Pillar.

I'm no coder so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but while the banzai bill and switches seem like they'd be complicated to implement, it doesn't feel like the appearing/disappearing platforms would be difficult to implement when you could get things like Randall to work. If the stage changes are necessary to the stage passing quality control, how difficult would it be to have the platforms and blocks appear and disappear on a timer, similar to how Randall moves around his stage?

Though even without that, Peach's Castle Melee still is a unique stage with the large wall in the middle on both sides. If it's going to be cut, are there any considerations of a custom stage implementing a similar layout in the future?

Saffron's Pokémon hazards aren't going to be recreated, I don't see Hyrule Castle's tornado coming back, Kongo Jungle 64 doesn't have the barrel, but why do all those stages get a pass while Melee Peach's Castle doesn't?

As a professional casual who is paid to do so, Peach's castle seems like the least unique of the stages you mentioned... But I definitely agree that a spiritual successor would be well deserved with a large center structure to bonk people around. Did anyone propose it being an alternate stage to Rainbow Cruise? Or maybe that's where they could put the spiritual successor.

Since Skyworld is continuing to be phased out of usage, apparently even being sent off to death the third row in 3.6, I've decided to illustrate my ideas to improve it

The layout is already pretty good, in my opinion.
​

Spoiler: Details

The destructible platform​

The main complaint I hear about the stage is that the top platform can be camped, so why not give characters the option to remove it? Trying to do so would leave them open, but then the opponent has to worry about breaking their own asset. Has a lot potential to become an interesting dynamic.

The monolith​

To give some extra flair. Floats by at varying elevations and in varying directions. Could be used to extend recoveries or edgeguards, and being knocked into it could be advantageous for either player, depending on whether it's successfully teched. Also occasionally flips, making it a scary place to hang out. (I actually didn't make a picture before because I wasn't sure if such a flip could work, but after some fiddling I've found a way to make it basically how I imagine.)

If I could pay people to do things, this would be a thing that I would pay you to do.

I was thinking that they could just make two side-clouds be like the Yoshi Story clouds and vanish after excess usage. Your idea is better.
While we're mentioning Skyworld, it'd be neat if there was a visual difference between the Brawl and Project M version assuming that the Brawl version will be included. For instance, maybe move the main and secondary Project M platforms, add flying dwarf thingies to the background, or maybe base it off the corrupt sad Skyworld in Kid Icarus Uprising? But since the other stages don't have QUITE the same treatment (with maybe Distant Planet and Ashleyware as the exception, they look so different!) it might be a bit... Uniftting.

The hitbox that we added to the thwomp is very limited. It's a hitbox that gives off a "spike" effect (not to be confused with being spiked by a player. This is like hitting something sharp, a spike). Thwomps have spikes. It conveniently works out in that one situation. Having pokemon or banzai bill give a spike effect does not make sense and doesn't act the way that those hazards are intended to work.

We keep trying to do new things and we keep trying to implement stuff that you guys want. Sandfall has gone nuts trying to figure all this out and he's making progress, but right now the best we have for new hazards are the thwomps in Bowser's Castle.

I think implementing painful Pokémon isn't super important, since the stage is so unique in structure and pretty...

But would Porygon work? It would make sense if he spike-poked upon exiting the building. He's so pointy!


Unless the spikies are permanent,
In that case, ignore me... I'm sorry please don't hurt me.
Though Beedrill might also work since he always has pointies. I feel like any Smash 64 or generation one Pokémon would be appropriate, even if the former didn't function the same way.

 

[Nefnoj]

I accidentally double posted kill me.

 

[derpcube]

Im just glad we have melee battlefield back, I never understood why sakuri went from a futuristic battlefield to a battlefield in grasslands.

 

[GFooChombey]

@ Nefnoj Rainbow Cruise has been cut too.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Dont suppose it's possible to just have a pokeball item spawn and open on Saffron when the doors open?



Also, the tiny grey writing is getting REALLY annoying...

My only gripe is the layout of the SSS. The bottom row seems to be going from small -> large in terms of both blastzones and their main platform length (I already know about the changes to Delfino's Secret's blastzones, thank god they were changed from Drac's). Yet the 2nd row this is only somewhat true for the middle 5 stages, making me question the placement of Lylat and Norfair in particular. Perhaps finding a better way to organize them where it gets this main concept across would be ideal? .

The middle 5 of the bottom and center rows are the stages that were decided on in the 'proposed standardised stagelist'
the flanking 4 (YS, DL, LC, NF) are the ones that were almost in the 10 chosen, but didnt quite make the cut.

 

[Nefnoj]

@ Nefnoj Rainbow Cruise has been cut too.

Oh poo! They really ought to update that on the Smashwiki. Or I should bookmark the stage selection screen.

In that case... I'd be REALLY neat if said spiritual successor was on Luigi's Mansion that they're bringing back, it would have AWESOME aesthetics!

Also, the tiny grey writing is getting REALLY annoying...

Better?
Hahaha,

But in all seriosity, it's the only way I know to visually communicate awkward mumbling.

 

[Narpas_sword]

You dont need to communicate awkward mumbling.

 

[Nefnoj]

GUYS. I'M FREAKING OUT BECAUSE I HAD AN EPIPHANY. So I mentioned that an alt for Luigi's Mansion could be a successor to Peach's castle? What if our best buddies at Project M used the roof of the Mansion?
I'm gonna try to do what that cool guy that I really like does whose name I never bother to look at. He's got a cool avatar though, lots of black and white bits. I don't do as well as he does though, my MS paint skills are sub-par.

Spoiler

This model was taken from the Brawl trophy of Luigi's Mansion that the Project M Development Team could use.
It's essentially a recreation of Peach's castle to my best attempt, except for one obvious change: The roof thingies. I was thinking something akin to what Mmmmmmmmmmm said: (who has a cool profile picture too) Spontaneous platforms! I think that, similarly to the ghost in Yoshi's Island, at certain intervals of time, two platforms would rise off of the roof, with a similar visual to the entire Mansion rising from the ground, and, instead of a Fly Guy demonstrating that the platforms would rise, it would be an orange ghost doing its' whole ghosty deal.

Now that I think of it, they could possibly implement other spontaneous platforms with a visual of the pink Boos in Super Mario Sunshine, though I personally like the simplicity of just two platforms.

I think it would be more fun if the center spire was taller and if the stage was bigger in general.

All I know are visuals. Sorry.

You dont need to communicate awkward mumbling.

Spoiler

Your mum is probably very disappointed in you.

 

[JCOnyx]

The middle 5 of the bottom and center rows are the stages that were decided on in the 'proposed standardised stagelist'
the flanking 4 (YS, DL, LC, NF) are the ones that were almost in the 10 chosen, but didnt quite make the cut.

Oh really. It surprises me that they'd chose DP over Norfair. DP is almost universally hated among a ton of our top players here in WA (barring the ePG guys) and are actually wanting to ban the stage from the looks of it. I'm not really on board for it, but I feel Norfair is a better choice than DP but hey, I guess I can take this to the "Proposed Standardized Stagelist" thread lol.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

DP's problem is that it's nearly identical to PS2. I think only one should be on the stage list. Having to ban the same stage twice is fundamentally wrong.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I'm more surprised that Lylat is on the side (and less-yet-still-surprised jank stages like WW and FD aren't) when it's only not on the 'proposed standardized stagelist' because Umbreon thinks that personally disliking the stage is reason enough to universally ban it.
Or that YS and DL are still on the first page when pretty much everyone has realized how incredibly terrible they are.
Baby steps, I guess.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

I kinda like the idea of the roof of Luigi's mansion being an alternate.

 

[GFooChombey]

GUYS. I'M FREAKING OUT BECAUSE I HAD AN EPIPHANY. So I mentioned that an alt for Luigi's Mansion could be a successor to Peach's castle? What if our best buddies at Project M used the roof of the Mansion?
I'm gonna try to do what that cool guy that I really like does whose name I never bother to look at. He's got a cool avatar though, lots of black and white bits. I don't do as well as he does though, my MS paint skills are sub-par.

Spoiler

This model was taken from the Brawl trophy of Luigi's Mansion that the Project M Development Team could use.
It's essentially a recreation of Peach's castle to my best attempt, except for one obvious change: The roof thingies. I was thinking something akin to what Mmmmmmmmmmm said: (who has a cool profile picture too) Spontaneous platforms! I think that, similarly to the ghost in Yoshi's Island, at certain intervals of time, two platforms would rise off of the roof, with a similar visual to the entire Mansion rising from the ground, and, instead of a Fly Guy demonstrating that the platforms would rise, it would be an orange ghost doing its' whole ghosty deal.

Now that I think of it, they could possibly implement other spontaneous platforms with a visual of the pink Boos in Super Mario Sunshine, though I personally like the simplicity of just two platforms.

I think it would be more fun if the center spire was taller and if the stage was bigger in general.

All I know are visuals. Sorry.

Spoiler

I don't necessarily agree with that statement.

I can do whatever I care for so long as it's nice and relates to the topic. If you don't care for it, that either means I'm not being nice and someone should communicate that I've hurt their feelings, or the same applies to you. The latter is my current opinion right now.

I believe that tone of voice should be heavily emphasized using the resources the moderators of the site gave us. It would be disrespectful to not use it, especially at the cost of communication. If I find that certain shades, sizes, fonts, or whichever emphasizes a certain tone that I hope to achieve, I will use it, especially since communicating with text has no tone of voice whatsoever, and it is easy to assume hostility.

Nobody pays you to be an unkind and selfish person - so don't be. Especially in a respectable environment where the Project M leaders relies on the opinions and thoughts of fans. You don't see me correcting your lack of an apostrophe, your improper capitalization, and lack of an accent mark in "Pokémon" anytime I see it. It bothers me just as much as grey text bothers you, but I try to avoid hurting other people's feelings. Nobody pays me to do it, so I don't hence my youthful demeanor and attempt at innocence. You should try the same, especially since the discussion isn't about text, grammar, the way you communicate something, or just being mean in general. It's about stages and making them really really cool. Hmph.

Also your mum is probably very disappointed in you.

I'm fairly confident I suggested that somewhere else so I approve.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I'm more surprised that Lylat is on the side (and less-yet-still-surprised jank stages like WW and FD aren't) when it's only not on the 'proposed standardized stagelist' because Umbreon thinks that personally disliking the stage is reason enough to universally ban it.
Or that YS and DL are still on the first page when pretty much everyone has realized how incredibly terrible they are.
Baby steps, I guess.

There were pages upon pages of discussion =/
it was in no way 'because umbreon decided'
There were plenty of things that were overturned that he supported.

The only thing i can think of that got 'snuck' in and not overturned despite support was removing dreamland.
This was because it was left as a placeholder till something better came along. most people were ready to replace it, but umbreon had prior knowledge of Delphino Secrets, so left it in.

 

[Nefnoj]

What do my competitive neighbors think of Peach's castle and Luigi's Mansion? I always thought of them both as casual stages than anything, given the former's unusual shape, the latter's fall-apartibility, and the fact that I enjoy them both. I love the idea of competitive version for each casual stage and vice versa, so if Peach's Castle is a casual stage, then maybe they should have the alt for Luigi's Mansion be an indestructible version for competitive tourney players?

 

[Player -0]

Distant Planet isn't really the same as PS2. That's like saying SV = PS2

 

[Cubelarooso]

There were pages upon pages of discussion =/
it was in no way 'because umbreon decided'
There were plenty of things that were overturned that he supported.

I didn't say he dictated the whole ruleset, just that the criteria for legality were unfounded.
The discussion was of disliking it, not any legitimate reasons for a ban. The closest it came was "I dislike the stage because Kirby is an annoying character to fight."

Distant Planet isn't really the same as PS2. That's like saying SV = PS2

The platforms have the same onstage and offstage implications for many characters (and most players), and both stages are sickeningly wide. They can easily be played the same way, and are more alike than any two stages barring maybe WW and YS, enough so that several players (myself included) have expressed that they'd always want to ban one whenever they want to ban the other, and that they'd want to go to one whenever the other is banned.
It's certainly less distinct than Lylat, Norfair, Metal Cavern, and many stages that haven't been considered in a while.

 

[Player -0]

SV is also extremely wide. DP has two platforms situated more towards the ledge which allows for more recovery options/more chances for a DJ. The walls also go all the way to the blastzone which allows for even more recovery options. The more onstage platforms are also longer (they might be lower but not sure) which changes decisions in neutral game. I can't comment on blastzones because I'm not sure.

These differences are comparable to the differences between SV and PS2. Obviously there are more unique stages but saying they're the same is ehhhh

 

[Avro-Arrow]

The blastzones are really similar too. Because the stage sizes are similar, and the platform layout is similar, the stages benefit and hurt the same characters for many of the same reasons.

 

[Cubelarooso]

SV is not wide at all.
The leaves only have a slight balance effect when a character can recover high without telegraphing it and without having much landlag. The soon-to-be-shrooms are close to the same height as PS2's plats, and their exact size and position don't change the overall movement channels.
One shouldn't expect a mid-level player to be aware enough to make significant use of their minor layout differences, and such differences only change actual gameplay with little effect on character viability. That's not a model to which a stagelists can currently adhere, so the platforms aren't too much of a concern during stage selection, being overshadowed by the fact that both stages' lengths hurt the game.
The blastzones are actually notably different. PS2, of course, has a the second lowest ceiling for no reason, while DP's is more middling (slightly on the low side, though). Their sides are kinda normalish, with DP's lower and PS2's farther than average.

 

[himemiya]

DP's problem is that it's nearly identical to PS2. I think only one should be on the stage list. Having to ban the same stage twice is fundamentally wrong.

How is distant planet similiar to ps2?

I'm more surprised that Lylat is on the side (and less-yet-still-surprised jank stages like WW and FD aren't) when it's only not on the 'proposed standardized stagelist' because Umbreon thinks that personally disliking the stage is reason enough to universally ban it.
Or that YS and DL are still on the first page when pretty much everyone has realized how incredibly terrible they are.
Baby steps, I guess.

Yeah if the melee **** can get use to battlefield (melee) ledge collisions we can get used to lylats.

 

[Xermo]

DP is about as similar to PS2 as BF, DL, YS, and FoD are to one another; and DP actually has a differing platform arrangement.

 

[himemiya]

Which makes it another starter/neutral potential stage, not a clone though.

 

[nimigoha]

So are the thwomps basically going to be awesome for ledge tech practice?

Is there any way to improve the training stage? I feel like a (really useful) grid background, a wall, a useless sandbag, a tri-plat, and a ledge being the only features is a little lacking. Sure, it's great for platform movement, but it's missing quite a bit. I also think there's no reason for it to be so high.

1) Ledge techs. The 20XX pack has a combination of settings that makes practicing this very easy, and without them you're left with either a) make your friend bored spamming attacks while you fail over and over again, or b) using motion bombs which is a lengthy process that kills you very quickly if you mess up.

@ Llama Juice you said that you can't arbitrarily add hitboxes to the stage, and that it only works for the thwomps since you used the target test as a base. Is there a way to rebuild the training stage with that base so you could have a ledge with a spike (effect) hitbox, or would this mess things up?

2) Wall + ledge sweetspots. I suppose you can pick a spot on the wall and say "I'll sweetspot to there" but it's really not the same. It's probably better to practice these on the actual stages but practicing will help you visualize the angles you need.

I have an idea that just shifts the stage around a bit and would incorporate both of these. Zero knowledge of how feasible such changes would be.

Shift the wall over to the right a bit, and decrease the height so that the character with the lowest vertical recovery (DK?) can reach the top of the wall. Give the top of the wall a bit to stand on, about the length of a Dreamland platform. Then go down the left hand side. So you basically have a pillar with ledges. Then there's a tiny bit of floor on the left side of the pillar to stand on. Give the left ledge a hitbox.

So you have a way to practice ledge techs and sweetspots up a wall, and you retain the triplat and non-wall ledge (and add one on the left side of the stage).

Probably not possible but just an idea I had to improve the 'training' purpose of the stage.

 

[Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm]

@ Nefnoj Rainbow Cruise has been cut too.

Well now I'm just confused. Before I jump to conclusions, what's the reason for that? The stage was already in Brawl so it's already fully implemented, so it can't be the same rason as losing Castle Melee.

 

[Sandfall]

Well now I'm just confused. Before I jump to conclusions, what's the reason for that? The stage was already in Brawl so it's already fully implemented, so it can't be the same rason as losing Castle Melee.

We needed a slot for Peach's Castle 64

 

[Player -0]

I thought Peach's Castle Melee was cut for the 64 version?